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Would there be any appetite for a debate on religion or God's existence?

  • 15-12-2009 08:11PM
    #1
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭


    Hi folks, I hope you're all well.

    Am I the only one who thinks that boards.ie is wasting a fantastic resource in the Debate forum? To my knowledge, only one debate has ever been held (on Lisbon) and it was excellent (and that's coming from a Yes voter, by the way!). Do you think there would be any interest in putting another debate together, with the motion being something to do with religion? I'd love to see such a thing.
    Of course, I do understand that the real challenge might be in getting some of our learned colleagues across the street to suit up.

    What do you all think?


Comments

  • #2
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Tbh, I'd rather boards did one on Climate Change.

    Anyways, a debate of the existence of God would be interesting too, but the problem I'd have is that they are so many excellent posters here who would I nominate?

    Maybe?
    Robindch,
    Wicknight,
    Morbert,
    Sam Vimes,


  • #3
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Tbh, I'd rather boards did one on Climate Change.

    Anyways, a debate of the existence of God would be interesting too, but the problem I'd have is that they are so many excellent posters here who would I nominate?

    Maybe?
    Robindch,
    Wicknight,
    Morbert,
    Sam Vimes,

    I think your list of fine posters is too short!

    Anyway, I like the idea. I think more debates of many kinds should be held in there.


  • #4
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    I think your list of fine posters is too short!

    Anyway, I like the idea. I think more debates of many kinds should be held in there.

    There's tonnes of fine posters, but afaik know Boards only allows four debaters on a team.


  • #5
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    I think your list of fine posters is too short!

    Anyway, I like the idea. I think more debates of many kinds should be held in there.
    I think it's missing a Malty touch, for one thing...


  • #6
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It might be tough to find four believers willing to publicly put their god(s) on the line, tbh.


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  • #7
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.


  • #8
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Its a pointless debate, neither side can in anyway convince they other.
    Its simply a case of preaching to the converted for both camps.


  • #9
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Its a pointless debate, neither side can in anyway convince they other.
    Its simply a case of preaching to the converted for both camps.
    It would make for some great reading though. The Lisbon debate didn't change my mind, but it was some of the best stuff I ever read. There is literary virtue in debates too which should not be discounted.

    If anyone from the Christianity forum, or the Islam forum for that matter, is reading this, might you be interested?


  • #10
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Its a pointless debate, neither side can in anyway convince they other.
    Its simply a case of preaching to the converted for both camps.

    Not really. The point is to convince the audience, not the other team.


  • #11
    rugbyman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭rugbyman


    I look forward to this debate. i would like to see it take place with the proviso " no reference to any books".. Though perhaps that would deter some good posters who are Theists.

    Though an athiest, I like to read the logic of people like Wolfsbane(have i remembered his name correctly).

    Regards,Rugbyman


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  • #12
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Its a pointless debate, neither side can in anyway convince they other.
    Its simply a case of preaching to the converted for both camps.

    Isn't the point of a debate to convince the audience, not either side?

    snap Chocolate :D


  • #13
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    Okay, I'll take a shot at garnering (that's a word, isn't it?) interest across the way. Wish me luck!


  • #14
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Its a pointless debate, neither side can in anyway convince they other.

    hmm... I seem to feel this is coming from your own lack of conviction even after hearing both sides of the argument. You're Agnostic right?

    A lot of other people prefer not to live in that sea of gray their whole life, and agnosticism just isn't an option. Sure, I accept that the "God?" argument naturally tends towards an agnostic conclusion currently, but in regards to how one chooses to live their life, one wants to know what is relevant and what isn't, rather than what's real and unreal.

    These debates seldom aim to disprove the existence of God, rather they try to disprove the much more tangible relevance of God to human existence. You make God irrelevant to humanity and you will have killed God. If nobody cares or knows of deities they will cease to exist.


  • #15
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    Alright, I've run the motion The Decline of Religion in the Western World is to be Lamented up the flagpole. Who'll salute it?


  • #16
    herbiemcc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭herbiemcc


    Goduznt: I think that's really good point about debating the relevance of god. It's hard to engage with theists though as I find the shop gets closed up so quickly.

    I always hear trendy christians saying it's good to question god, you'll never catch him out etc.

    Turns out you can only question with quite childish questions where you already know what you want the answer to be.

    The debate would depend on the presence of some christians who are lucid and logical. Seems unlikely.


  • #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wacker wrote: »
    Alright, I've run the motion The Decline of Religion in the Western World is to be Lamented up the flagpole. Who'll salute it?

    I'll gladly argue against that motion. I think the decline of religion in the Western world is to be celebrated.


  • #18
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Tbh, I'd rather boards did one on Climate Change.

    Anyways, a debate of the existence of God would be interesting too, but the problem I'd have is that they are so many excellent posters here who would I nominate?

    Maybe?
    Robindch,
    Wicknight,
    Morbert,
    Sam Vimes,

    Oh,Oh, pick me, pick me!!!:D


  • #19
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Tbh, I'd rather boards did one on Climate Change.

    Why not do both?

    The debate forum is pretty underused as it is.


  • #20
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    PDN wrote: »
    I'll gladly argue against that motion. I think the decline of religion in the Western world is to be celebrated.

    Er, what? Is this a devil's advocate game you're playing? Most western religion is false religion so as it declines it makes room for evangelicalism? What's the trick here PDN?


  • #21
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zillah wrote: »
    Er, what? Is this a devil's advocate game you're playing? Most western religion is false religion so as it declines it makes room for evangelicalism? What's the trick here PDN?

    It's no trick at all. I believe that most religion (including what most people perceive as Christianity) is a hindrance to society. I also think that Christendom, where the Church calls the shots culturally and politically, is an abomination.

    I am a committed secularist and a Christian believer who advocates a complete separation of Church and State, and who believes that Christianity is far more authentic when it operates as a counter-cultural minority.

    No tricks or playing devil's advocate, just honestly held beliefs that happen to be a bit different from some people's stereotypical assumptions of what they think Christians should believe.


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  • #22
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    PDN wrote: »
    It's no trick at all. I believe that most religion (including what most people perceive as Christianity) is a hindrance to society. I also think that Christendom, where the Church calls the shots culturally and politically, is an abomination.

    I am a committed secularist and a Christian believer who advocates a complete separation of Church and State, and who believes that Christianity is far more authentic when it operates as a counter-cultural minority.

    No tricks or playing devil's advocate, just honestly held beliefs that happen to be a bit different from some people's stereotypical assumptions of what they think Christians should believe.

    So what sect of Christianity do you adhere too? Where do you receive the sacrements ect?


  • #23
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    Since the former is kind of moot at this stage, I'd like to suggest a different debate:

    Has religion been a positive or negative force for humanity?


  • #24
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Xluna wrote: »
    So what sect of Christianity do you adhere too? Where do you receive the sacrements ect?


    I am a Pentecostal Christian, but I don't believe being part of any sect makes you a Christian. That is a matter of one's individual relationship with Christ.

    I don't actually believe in the concept of sacraments as such - but I think Jesus gave ordinances. For example he told Christians to break bread together and remember His death - and that can be done with a few guys sitting in their living room just as well as in a church. He also said believers should be baptised, which can easily be fulfilled by someone baptising their mate in a bath or a river.

    (Sorry to the mods for going off topic - but I'm just answering direct questions)


  • #25
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    PDN wrote: »
    No tricks or playing devil's advocate, just honestly held beliefs that happen to be a bit different from some people's stereotypical assumptions of what they think Christians should believe.

    Only a very small percentage of Christians I know are against secularisation*. All the ones I know who would have the strongest sense of faith are committed to secular society and feel that the decline of the Church's role in politics and law has been a very good thing.


    *The exceptions have been evangelicals for the most part with the odd extreme conservative Catholic thrown in.


  • #26
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wacker wrote: »
    It would make for some great reading though. The Lisbon debate didn't change my mind, but it was some of the best stuff I ever read. There is literary virtue in debates too which should not be discounted.

    The Lisbon debate was a farce. I regret ever agreeing to participate.


  • #27
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Xluna wrote: »
    Has religion been a positive or negative force for humanity?
    It's kinda been done already, recently, and after seeing the royal drubbing the atheists delivered, I'd imagine that it'll be a long while before any more catholics climb into the ring to defend the One True Faith:

    http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church


  • #28
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    Below is a copy and paste job of what I just posted in the Christianity forum. It still applies!


    Ahh! Please, can you all stop following what I'm sure is an intrinsic instinct (is the word 'intrinsic' a derivative of 'instinct'? Actually, answer this question!) at this point? I read as fare as post #24, (Soul Winner's post), which Wicknight gave a fairly substantive reply to, and I'm now about ready to despair. I'm a man of real simple pleasures; I just want to get a debate together, and none of this is helping!
    Just answe this question for me: if the motion were to be the one I already suggested (The decline of religion in the western world is to be lamented), could I get people to (oppose- just for you crazy kids- W) this motion?

    Please?! No ulterior motives here, honest!


  • #29
    Wacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭Wacker


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63568818#post63568818

    Okay guys, you heard it here first: it would appear that there is only one way that this is going to happen, and it might require some thinking outside the box. If I can put this whole thing together (a big if; I have no idea what the next step is), will two of y'all have the sand to propose the motion that the decline of religion in the western world is to be lamented? Or, arguably requiring even more sand, what atheist will have PDN as a partner? :pac:

    Don't lose your conviction now. Lets get this done.


  • #30
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    PDN wrote: »
    I am a Pentecostal Christian, but I don't believe being part of any sect makes you a Christian. That is a matter of one's individual relationship with Christ.

    I don't actually believe in the concept of sacraments as such - but I think Jesus gave ordinances. For example he told Christians to break bread together and remember His death - and that can be done with a few guys sitting in their living room just as well as in a church. He also said believers should be baptised, which can easily be fulfilled by someone baptising their mate in a bath or a river.

    (Sorry to the mods for going off topic - but I'm just answering direct questions)

    Curious. You are a pastor of sorts, no? How do you reconcile this with your stated grass-roots philosophy?


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  • #31
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    I am an agnostic but was longing for someone/thing to fill the void that often occors in agnostics/atheists.

    I posted three threads in the Christianity forum.Two of them were deleted by a mod with comments that were to say the least very unchristian,Rude would be the word.One was left but got no response.

    The Christianity forum it seems to me just wants believers and no questioning of peoples valid doubts and fears.

    I cannot see them debating with non believers{IMO they are scared that what keeps them going being questioned might make them question their comfort zone}

    I found it a pretty obnoxious forum tbh.


  • #32
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Hey ynotdu,

    I thought you were a theist...:p
    ynotdu wrote: »
    ...
    Space exploration is only about 50 years old but yet we have seen SO many wonders!imagine what the historic Astronomers would have given for just 10 photo's from Hubble,Voyagers,marsrovers etc!(and personally i think it must ALL be out there for a reason,but dont want to get moved to religious forums;))...
    Glad to have you aboard.:)


  • #33
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ynotdu wrote: »
    I posted three threads in the Christianity forum. Two of them were deleted by a mod with comments that were to say the least very unchristian, Rude would be the word. [...]

    The Christianity forum it seems to me just wants believers and no questioning of peoples valid doubts and fears.

    I found it a pretty obnoxious forum tbh.
    The rules that other boards.ie moderators create and enforce, and the resulting forum tone this produces, are a matter for those forums.

    Here, it's certainly possible to talk in general terms how religious people who are in positions of power choose to exercise that power. And I'm sure most people will quite happy to discuss the valid doubts and fears that even the most superficial examination of religion will throw up. Heavens, most A+A poster are here because we've discussed these things in the past, and found religious answers to be hopelessly wide of the mark.

    But, as I said, what happens in other forums here on boards.ie should be kept in those forums. Or brought to Feedback, if you think it's appropriate.


  • #34
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    ynotdu wrote: »
    I am an agnostic but was longing for someone/thing to fill the void that often occors in agnostics/atheists.

    I posted three threads in the Christianity forum.Two of them were deleted by a mod with comments that were to say the least very unchristian,Rude would be the word.One was left but got no response.

    The Christianity forum it seems to me just wants believers and no questioning of peoples valid doubts and fears.

    I cannot see them debating with non believers{IMO they are scared that what keeps them going being questioned might make them question their comfort zone}

    I found it a pretty obnoxious forum tbh.

    The forum draws a hard line on what's allowed because of atheist trolls taking the piss on there in the past from my understanding of things. Regardless, if the moderators of that forum want to say that questioning the faith/religion is not allowed there then that is fine since the forum's purpose is to give a place for believers to discuss their faith and related issues not to give a place for people to question such (which is provided in this forum).


  • #35
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Zillah wrote: »
    Curious. You are a pastor of sorts, no? How do you reconcile this with your stated grass-roots philosophy?

    By teaching people how to be grass-roots Christians with a low dependence on the church institutions, a high dependence on God, and encouraging them to gather and meet in small groups where they can build authentic friendships and relationships.


  • #36
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Hey ynotdu,

    I thought you were a theist...:p

    Glad to have you aboard.:)

    Lol Malty,What a find of one of my much earlior posts!

    Are you in the police force?..................everything a person says will be written down etc................................:)
    cheers


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  • #37
    ynotdu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭ynotdu


    Sorry guys i still have not got round to learning multiquotes.
    Honestly i did not mean to spark a controversy,simply there was no attack by me on the Christianity forum.I was having my annual envy attack of dedicated believers and thought i might find inspiration of some sort from it.
    as i stated i met with rude moderating and here was i thinking a core duty of a Christian was to be an evangelist for JC.

    My reason for bringing it up here is that it seems to me Christions would not 'debate',rather they would preach,criticise,or just be intolerant of others,well at least the one's who profess to being followers of Jesus Christ would,but instead even on boards cannot be civil to others.
    I can only guess their 'version'of Christianity by how they treat others in Cyberspace,shudder at the thought as to how they treat people in real life.


  • #38
    Myksyk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    nesf wrote: »
    if the moderators of that forum want to say that questioning the faith/religion is not allowed there then that is fine

    Paranormal forum is the same. Seems it is a common strategy in the discussion of extra-ordinary claims and non-sense that they not be questioned or examined critically.


  • #39
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Myksyk wrote: »
    Paranormal forum is the same. Seems it is a common strategy in the discussion of extra-ordinary claims and non-sense that they not be questioned or examined critically.

    Live and let live etc.


  • #40
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wacker wrote: »
    Or, arguably requiring even more sand, what atheist will have PDN as a partner?

    Don't all rush at once.


  • #41
    Arcus Arrow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 296 ✭✭Arcus Arrow


    On October 19 in London a few of us attented this debate:
    The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.
    http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church

    Hitchens and Fry wiped the floor with the opposition.


    I'd like to see the same debate but in an Irish context. The Catholic Church has been a diaster for this country even before the current scandals. It is after all a foreign political/religious organisation operating in this country for it's own benifit.


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  • #42
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    ^^ BIG thread about that debate here.


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