Is it time to cull the welfare state?

Dublin Hibby · 12-03-2010 02:35PM

As a non national, living in Ireland for the past 10 years i am astonished at the lack of any kind of co-ordinated response to the bull**** that is being spread across the mainstream of society.

I know there is a need for reform in the public sector and the attitude that "we are owed something". However, the current ijiots responsible for this would have a job organising a riot.

They made a berrtie blunt of it in the good times, what chance do they have in the bad times.

The lie that the banks need propping up to the tune of 54 billion is an absolute belter. In the USA over 100 banks have gone to the wall over the past 18 months, the USA is still there.

Use the 54 billion to stimulate the economy with national infrastructe programmes, by buiding roads, rail, schools etc.

I also like the posters idea about empty houses and them being used as a resource whilst making some money.

dvpower · 12-03-2010 03:20PM

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

DV, i will start my posts as i see fit.

You do that.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

It will provide you with the opportunity to cut them up and make yourself look clever.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Your ideas for a fair and equal response to the current difficulties are?

I'm not looking for a fair and equal response. I'm looking for an effective response.
I don't care so much who got us into the current difficulties. If it would help lift the national mood, we could always take a few bankers and developers and hang them from the top of the portico of the GPO. So long as we can then move on and deal with the problem, namely the massive current account deficit.

What I think we ought to do:
Cut unemployment payments modestly, say 5%.
Cut long term unemployment payments by more, say 10-15%.
Cut pension payments modestly, say 5%.
Means test the medical card for pensioners.
Further cuts to public sector pay at the top levels.
Freeze public sector pay (including increments).
Massive reform program in the public services.
Privatisation program of many government services.
Cut numbers in the public sector.

dvpower · 12-03-2010 03:24PM

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Use the 54 billion to stimulate the economy with national infrastructe programmes, by buiding roads, rail, schools etc.

The 54bn doesn't exist. It is borrowed.
Moreover, it is borrowed for the specific purpose of the banking sector bailout. It is not available for a stimulus package. If we went to the markets looking to borrow 54bn for a stimulus package, we wouldn't be able to raise it at the low rate that we are getting the NAMA money at.

hooradiation · 12-03-2010 06:08PM

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

You are a very angry person, young hoor. I will post it up in due course.

No you won't.
I doubt we ever see anything substantive from you.

Also, "young hoor"?
Does anyone want to translate that into English for me?

Tigger · 12-03-2010 06:44PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

so if you lose your job that one thing
its the ones that were already long term in feb 09 when the emergency budget came in that said in 10 months time , dec 09 the bonus week would not happen

10 months time and yet they were convinced that they'd be still on the dole cos otherwise iot wouldn't have affected them

i was ade redundant by this recession i had a job 2 weeks later. i didn't even bother signing on i just spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week honestly working to get a job
how any people on the dole can say they spen eevn 20 hours a week looking for work really looking networeking and trying to get work

i had a guy ij here one day
guy: hi i'm unemployed fot the last month due to redundancy have you any job i could do?
me: no sorry

guy: do you have any friends or do you know of anywhere that might give me a lead to getting a job
me : well if thats yer attitude here is a list of names email addresses and some phone numbers of people wh like grafters

a mate who has a shop rang me a week later telling me he'd took yer man on and that he was indeed a grafter

i hopnestly challange anyone who is being critical of the thinking here to tell me that more than 5% of the unemployed on job seekers take that attitude

punchdrunk · 12-03-2010 07:08PM

Tigger wrote: »

so if you lose your job that one thing
its the ones that were already long term in feb 09 when the emergency budget came in that said in 10 months time , dec 09 the bonus week would not happen

10 months time and yet they were convinced that they'd be still on the dole cos otherwise iot wouldn't have affected them

i was ade redundant by this recession i had a job 2 weeks later. i didn't even bother signing on i just spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week honestly working to get a job
how any people on the dole can say they spen eevn 20 hours a week looking for work really looking networeking and trying to get work

i had a guy ij here one day
guy: hi i'm unemployed fot the last month due to redundancy have you any job i could do?
me: no sorry

guy: do you have any friends or do you know of anywhere that might give me a lead to getting a job
me : well if thats yer attitude here is a list of names email addresses and some phone numbers of people wh like grafters

a mate who has a shop rang me a week later telling me he'd took yer man on and that he was indeed a grafter

i hopnestly challange anyone who is being critical of the thinking here to tell me that more than 5% of the unemployed on job seekers take that attitude

Tigger i admire your tenacity at finding a job,fair play to you

I also agree that long term unemployment is a huge problem,and that it along with people on disability benefits should be reviewed and assessed as to whether these people truly are seeking/are genuinely unable to work

but a major part of the problem is people had large mortgages,given by banks on the basis of the salaries they had,they had credit cards with limits through the roof,for alot of people going out and taking any job they can get simply isn't going to be enough to repay these debts any way you slice it

randylonghorn · 12-03-2010 07:57PM

moonpurple wrote: »

the army equestrian school

Off topic I know, but the army equestrian school has basically operated as a marketing unit for the horse-breeding industry in Ireland, and unlike most such more overt quangos has actually been reasonably effective as such. I wouldn't begrudge the spend on that, but I would question whether the state gets enough revenue back from that sector.

pickarooney wrote: »

A good oul' war should sort us out. Maybe against New Zealand.

Jeez, we'd be surrendering within days! We might manage the Faroe Islands ... :pac:

ricman wrote: »

THE CIVIL SERVICE PENSION is a form of welfare,the pensions are too high, there should be a law ,you can claim 1 pension thats it.
THE government is borrowing billions to pay out 4 pensions, its crazy economics.

Civil and indeed public servants only get one pension, what are you on about?

TD's and senators seem to get several all right, but it doesn't go down the line.

dvpower wrote: »

I thought we were going to get something original and it turned out to be just another daft rant against an ex-minister's payoff.

Why is it a daft rant? I've nothing against Martin Cullen, but why does he need a pension of €105,000? Why does anyone, TD, banker or candlestick-maker?

thetonynator · 12-03-2010 08:04PM

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

In the USA over 100 banks have gone to the wall over the past 18 months, the USA is still there.

.

Are there 100 banks in the USA???

Maybe 100 bank branches:P

randylonghorn · 12-03-2010 08:43PM

thetonynator wrote: »

Are there 100 banks in the USA???

Maybe 100 bank branches:P

According to the FDIC, there were 8,430 FDIC-insured commercial banks in the United States as of August 22, 2008.

Gannicus · 12-03-2010 10:52PM

I tell you all. I have the answer right now simple easy steps...

1. tighter means testing: you live with ma and da, no kids, €50 a week no more.
2. all recipients do charity work 15-20 hours a week in a hospital or cleaning our streets. make the country a little nicer and ease the strain of the medical profession. if you don't show up you don't get paid like a real job. anyone under 25 does one night over the weekend.
3. caught fiddling the welfare the baillifs show up and repo you're stuff.
4. work placement. fás find you a job you dont take it or last more than a year in it ie get sacked or quit (excluding redundancies). you don't get welfare for 12 months after then you go back to the job queue in fás and start again.
5. 3 tax brackets 20% 40% and for those over €200k a year 55%
6. rent allowance 50% of the rent for the year not 75% (depending on local council) stop people getting gafs just because they have a kid(s) when they can clearly stay at home.
7. medical card. subscriptions charge €5.
8. let them take a language class. increase our abilities to compete in a worldwide market. we have the worst rate of multilingual people per capita in europe.

Son Of A Vidic · 12-03-2010 11:36PM

We might be better of 'culling' the bankers, since their criminal incompetence put us all in this hole.

Alessandra · 13-03-2010 12:44AM

If we sack all the Government I think we'd probably be grand. An anarchic state would probably be better than what we have currently in place.

Pherekydes · 13-03-2010 02:28AM

You're worried about some people who are living hand to mouth?

HELLO! Sean Fitzpatrick borrowed 70 mill and he ain't paying it back.

13-03-2010 03:14AM

Big Steve wrote: »

I have the answer right now

Ah, in fairness now... You don't.

Grimreaper666 · 13-03-2010 07:36PM

The economy needs to be stimulated to get things rolling again, be a further cut in VAT or whatever, we can see the difference it made recently when everyone flocked up north to do their shopping and our shower just stood and watched businesses go out of business and rattled on about patriotic duty and the like, instead of trying to save what they had. I'd sooner get something back in taxes than nothing back if nothing's happening. It's such a big deal when they announce a hundred jobs but are nowhere to be found when a thousand jobs are lost.
It would be a big help if our government did a decent weeks work for a very decent weeks pay and expenses. A five day working week with clock in, clock out, like the rest of us mere mortals would be a good start, production related pay would be another good one. They should be leading by example. And the idea of f*cking off for a month or two at Christmas, summer and two whole weeks for Paddys day beggers belief!!!! We need a decisive government to lead by example not a bunch of part timers on the take at every available opportunity and tipping off their buddies what and what not to get involved in. It really is no wonder we're in such a mess but most of it stems from the top down.
Business should be encouraged and helped along instead of being harassed by revenue, people out of work should be encouraged to set up their own businesses and helped along the way. There's no doubt people are getting too much money on welfare and that hole in the economy needs to be plugged no doubt. To get the economy rolling again is the key to our success and the
easiest quickest way to do this is to drop the VAT/tax rate, pretty soon people would be flocking here to buy stuff which would stimulate tourism, retail, air traffic etc. etc and get the whole economy rolling again.

dvpower · 13-03-2010 08:42PM

randylonghorn wrote: »

Why is it a daft rant? I've nothing against Martin Cullen, but why does he need a pension of €105,000? Why does anyone, TD, banker or candlestick-maker?

Because cutting the pensions of ministers will save only pennies compared to the c.€20bn current account deficit that we are running. These calls are just a distraction from the real issues.

(But I do agree that minister's pensions are too generous).

randylonghorn · 14-03-2010 12:04AM

dvpower wrote: »

Because cutting the pensions of ministers will save only pennies compared to the c.€20bn current account deficit that we are running. These calls are just a distraction from the real issues.

(But I do agree that minister's pensions are too generous).

I could be facetious and say "look after the pennies and the pounds euros will look after themselves".

But actually, this issue is a lot more important than that.

It's about a concept called "leading by example", a concept our politicians have never heard of.

They want people to take pay-cuts and pay pension levies, to work until they're 68, to generally "tighten their belts" as Haughey famously appealed for in his day (probably while wearing a Charvet shirt!).

Yet they award themselves a pension of €105,000 p.a.?

And allow their idiot pals in the banks who dumped us in all of this to retire with golden handshakes and pensions which make even minister's pensions look like a kid's pocket-money?

And they are surprised that people are grumbling?

dvpower · 14-03-2010 10:35AM

randylonghorn wrote: »

I could be facetious and say "look after the pennies and the pounds euros will look after themselves".

Yes. That would be facetious.

randylonghorn wrote: »

And they are surprised that people are grumbling?

No. And in my experience, grumbling doesn't work.

Truley · 14-03-2010 07:50PM

Big Steve wrote: »

2. all recipients do charity work 15-20 hours a week in a hospital or cleaning our streets. make the country a little nicer and ease the strain of the medical profession. if you don't show up you don't get paid like a real job. anyone under 25 does one night over the weekend.

So people have to work for 20 hours a week for less than min wage. Do they get the same rights/entitlements as someone in a 'real job'? What about the people that profit from their work? What about in cases of unfair treatment or harrassment, they can't leave their 'job.' So what you're suggesting is essentially slavery :eek:

Greyfox · 14-03-2010 09:02PM

Truley wrote: »

So people have to work for 20 hours a week for less than min wage. Do they get the same rights/entitlements as someone in a 'real job'? What about the people that profit from their work? What about in cases of unfair treatment or harrassment, they can't leave their 'job.' So what you're suggesting is essentially slavery :eek:

Actually it would work out at more then the minimum wage! I think making people on the dole work between 10 - 15 hours a week would be a brilliant idea, although making them work one day a week would probably be more realistic, it certainly makes a lot more sense then giving somebody €200 for sitting at home scratching their ar**, the people who profit from it with be ourselves when we have cleaner streets and hospitals etc

Of course they would have rights just like real employees, if they don't like their job they can get assigned somewhere else. Even if they just had to work one day a week it would make sure that those not actively seeking work (the minority I know) would work that bit harder trying to find work

randylonghorn · 14-03-2010 10:11PM

dvpower wrote: »

No. And in my experience, grumbling doesn't work.

I suspect it will work this time round when it comes to the polls.

Dumb as we seem to be in this country when it comes to voting the same old hacks in, I doubt they will survive this time.

Dublin Hibby · 15-03-2010 04:07PM

The leadership issue is at the heart of the grumbling, what right minded person would willingly accept major cuts to their income, when the ones making the cuts are at the hurry up with the same money.

nachoman · 18-03-2010 05:00AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Firing squads down the dole office, mass sterilisation, Zyklon B, more Zyklon B, mass Easter crucifixions..........................................

many laughs

nachoman · 18-03-2010 05:13AM

Mrmoe wrote: »

I agree with certain points that you are making. The way things are at the moment the government is more likely to screw things up than to get an efficient voucher system operating. There might be a lot of loop holes in the system but I think it could be better than the system we currently have. You could even make it a reward based system. If you do a course or some other type of training you could be allowed additional vouchers.

The type of vouchers I would envision would be fairly unrestricted vouchers with the exception that alcohol and tobacco products could not be purchased. These are luxury items as far as I am concerned. With regard to embarrassment , this can be a good thing. It might eventually drive them to go and find work.

For people looking to take up a hobby they can do so if they budget their resources. What about all the people who work who would also like to take up photography but can't afford that snazzy new SLR digital camera? Should people who are unemployed get an automatic right to training or equipment that employed people do not?

Whatever, points people have to make in this forum joking or serious, the inevitable is going to happen in December 2010 and that is that the Dole will be reduced to about 150 euro a week.

old_aussie · 18-03-2010 05:24AM

People should be required to work for their dole.

Xiney · 18-03-2010 07:16AM

old_aussie wrote: »

People should be required to work for their dole.

Doing what, exactly?

Something that someone else should be getting paid to do, thus putting them on the dole because their job has been taken over?

Or would you have them building famine roads and the like?

moonpurple · 18-03-2010 09:34AM

you think the dole is the problem

the problem is the absence of an election to clear what

gene kerrigan described as

'a cabal of self regarding underachievers'
:cool:

Is it time to cull the welfare state?

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