Review of Irish Management and Team.Mod Warning Post no.95

Co45 · 21-03-2010 12:58AM #1

So now that the 6 nations is over what have we learned?

Murphy/Kearney -
Murphy has shown that he is more than able to step in and do a job for Ireland. Hes been fantastic and really the unsung hero this campaign. Kearney is going through a bad patch at the moment and he needs to get his confidence back. Also lets not villify him for holding on today, it happens. Not one player on this Irish team hasn't given away a similiar penalty. People forget Kearney is still young and is always improving. On the Lions tour he matured so much as a player.. lets hope he can regain this form.

Bowe -
Hes really been an invaluable player for us and is the main weapon in our attack. For me he is next to O'Driscoll as one of our most important players.

O'Driscoll -
BOD is BOD. Solid throughout but never spectacular.

D'arcy -
Bad game today but hes had a good campaign if not spectacular. Still I would've liked to see Wallace getting more game time. I'll come back to that point though.

Earls -
Hes improved tremendously on his tour and is really maturing. Recovered very well from a poor performance against France and is really starting to excude confidence

Sexton -
Obviously needs to improve his kicking but he really impressed me in all other areas. He created tries out of nothing and Ireland needs a player like that. I really hope he isn't too affected by today and think it was a bad call by Kidney trying to sub him before the conversion but I'll get back to that.

O'Leary -
Excellent game against Wales but other than that he was poor. He simply doesn't impress me. Needs to improve his passing and speed of passing. Would like to see Ireland look to other options

Heaslip -
great tournament did a lot of thankless work on the ground and a really important member of the team.

Wallace -
Excellent throughout but has been really showed up on the ground against France most notably but also today by Barclay. Hes an excellent ball carrier but he needs to improve his ground work.

Ferris -
The man has been a monster at the breakdown and really is vital to the Irish forwards.

O'Connell -
Very disappointing championship from POC and I believe he should of been dropped. I'll get back to that though.

O'Callaghan -
Was solid but nowhere near as effective as Cullen and think he was very lucky to get his place I'll get back to that as well though.

Hayes -
Hes finished. Great servant but its over for him. Wish him all the best.

Best -
My god that was a terrible performance today but in fairness to the guy he has been good throughout. Earls, O'Leary and Wallace all had dreadful games against France and by the end of the tournament were our best performers so I wouldn't hang Best out to dry for one bad game like a lot of posters have been doing.

Healy -
Constantly improving and maturing as a player. His scrummaging has come on leaps and bounds since the AIs and hopefully this continues.

Cullen -
Very unfortunate, in the two games he played he was immense and showed more than both O'Callaghan and O'Connell did all tournament.

O'Gara -
Horrible game against France but proved how valuable his experience is against Wales and today against Scotland.

The Coaching Staff and Kidney -
I'm disappointed if I'm honest. Kidney's refusal to blood a new tighthead was criminal and so bloody frustrating. His dropping of Court who had been very good for Buckley was even more so. I couldn't believe Hayes was starting against Scotland and couldn't believe he stayed on for so long. His refusal to give Cronin any sort of meaningful gametime was a joke as well. Where he really disappointed me however was his treatment of Cullen. After ****ing on about how players coming back from injury have to play their way back into the team he goes and drops our best performer in the opening two games for O'Callaghan coming back from injury. Thats got to leave a bitter taste. Kidney is known for making the big calls but his refusal to drop O'Connell when the guy was clearly in poor form was a disgrace. You have to make those calls especially when the alternative is Cullen.
Today I thought he handled Sexton very poorly. What a smack in the face to Sexton to bring him off just before the conversion. Winning isn't everything especially when the prize on offer is a consolation trophy and the consequence of it is showing a young player whose going to have a key role in this squad for years to come, most notably the RWC, that you have no confidence in him.
Kidneys use of the bench was so poor. He simply didn't trust the likes of Cronin, Jennings, Buckley and Cullen today despite all 4 being desperately needed. Best's throwing was off, the lineout was in tatters, O'Connell playing terribly, Hayes getting slaughtered in the scrum and Wallace being completely outmuscled by Barclay and yet still Kidney refused to play them.
I wouldn't of minded losing today if it was in aid of development. We saw none of that today and the way Kidney handled it was without doubt damaging to the squad morale. Overly cautious and something I don't like to see.
All the other coaches did a fine job. Our defence was excellent and Gaffney seems to have created some brilliant backline moves but Kidney's selections and use of substitutions have really disappointed me.
I really would of liked to see Casey being brought into the squad. The guys going to be around for the World Cup and I think it would of been very interesting to see a Casey-Cullen combination. ffs experiment look at the French, they have such crazy depth and experience because they try things out and cap players. They always get it right for the WC.

Anyway guys this took me a long time to write so if you're not interested in validly discusing then please steer clear as i dont want it locked

chupacabra · 21-03-2010 04:49AM

You cant just say "BOD is BOD". He is most definitely not above criticsm and i think he has had a poor six nations.

I agree on POC tho. Ive said it before that good coaches know when to drop the "undroppable" players and Kidney camt seem to do that. And there is clear munster bias in regards to his second row selections.

Amazotheamazing · 21-03-2010 06:07AM

Fullbacks Kearney and Murphy, both good options, neither is a complete player though. We badly need one or the other to step up and take ownership of the position, probably Kearney.

Wings Bowe, Earls, Trimble, real area of strength, Trimble unlucky to be left out but Bowe and Earls are are most potent attackers at the minute.

Centres, d'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Wallace, all had a pretty poor championship by the standards we know they can reach. d'arcy was plainly unfit and shouldn't have played yestersday, BOD is not getting enough useable ball, imo.

Outhalf, O'Gara and Sexton, one on his way out, one trying to find his way in. O'gara is great a some things, rubbish at others, Sexton is great at somethnigs, rubbish at others. Hmm. Sexton needs to learn to run a game, the best payers don't try and do it all themselves, the best decision O'Gara ever made was to keep skip passing to BOD in his early years, Sexton would do well to realise this. Sexton's kicking from hand from the tee was very poor, will have to improve. O'Gara is not one for the future, we know what he can do when he's actually on form to do it. His day is passing though.

Scrumhalf, O'Leary, very physical, bad passer, needs to improve his pass to make the step from decent to good. took a lot of pressure off Sexton by boxkicking, which also highlighted how poor his boxkicking can be. Has a lot to work on.

Props, Buckley, Court, Hayes, Healy. Four options who can't scrummage. Real area of weakness and the stronger SH scrums could really damage us. Even Australia has a top class scrum now.

Hooker, Best, Cronin, Flannery. Flannery's our only international standard hooker, Best can't throw and Cronin is seemingly not rated by the management.

Second row, Cullen, O'Callaghan, O'Connell. O'Connell has had a poor championship, O'Callaghan has been excellent, Cullen could probably replace O'Connell but we should be asking why guys like Ryan, Caldwell and toner are not coming through.

Backrow, Ferris, Heaslip, Jennings, McLaughlin, Heaslip, Wallace. Outpowered in the games that counted, despite the high praise that all these options get, a truly top team will cope with them when it counts. We badly need the aggression that Sean O'Brien could bring, and, we really miss the abrasive edge players like Neil Best, Denis Leamy and Alan Quinlan gave us.

Management, great defence, some nice attacking play, particularly with Earls at 13, we should and could have used this championship to blood in more players like Cronin, Buckley, Toner etc.

thomond2006 · 21-03-2010 09:20AM

For me, it was disappointing that only one player had a consistent Six Nations: Tommy Bowe. BOD, POC and the halfbacks were up and down.

We seriously need a new tighthead, Hayes has got 102 caps now, time to say goodbye. Worryingly, our options at TH (Buckley, Ross, Court) are not first choice TH for their provinces.

I was shocked that Kidney did not bring on Cullen and Cronin. It was like EOS all over again. If a guy is having a bad time, you bring him off when there's an alternative.

When he's on form, TOL is a talisman for Ireland but I still feel Reddan should have been given a start, ala Stringer last year.

While I think Kidney has done a brilliant job overall, I wish he would stop bull****ting us about "building a squad". Double standards all over the place.

bamboozle · 21-03-2010 09:45AM

On the plus side the development of Earls and Healy has been positive.

On the negative side, scrum is being ignored by management, Hayes and Buckle are not capable of scrummaging at international level. We need to bring in Ross and Court, show faith in them and give the jersey to fight over.
POC has been appaling, i'll put this down to him being in serious need of a break. I cant remember the Italy game but since then he's had 9 knock ons in 4 games.
DOC has come in, added grunt, but also increased our penalty count, he specialises in going offside in kickable positions.
Wallace frustrates me, how come such a powerful ball carrier has never driven a man back in a tackle?
Flannery was badly missed but i wouldnt heap all the line out woes on Best, Scotland attacked it well.
TOL has blown hot and cold, he's no world beater and Reddan deserves a chance to snap at his heels.
We have in ROG and Sexton 2 good outhalves.

worst peformer of the 6 nations for me though has once again been tracy Pigott, her post match interviews and dreadful...after every response she gets from a player she goe 'hhhmmmmm...before she starts the next pointless question'

thomond2006 · 21-03-2010 09:49AM

bamboozle wrote: »

.
worst peformer of the 6 nations for me though has once again been tracy Pigott, her post match interviews and dreadful...after every response she gets from a player she goe 'hhhmmmmm...before she starts the next pointless question'

Sonja McLaughlin on the Beeb is far worse. She is so biased towards England it's extraordinary. Her Wilkinson worshipping during France vs England was nauseating.

Sorry, OT.

On D'Arcy, anyone think that he didn't look fit yesterday? He looked laboured, made a lot of handling errors and Scotland targeted his defence time and time again.

bamboozle · 21-03-2010 09:54AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sonja McLaughlin on the Beeb is far worse. She is so biased towards England it's extraordinary. Her Wilkinson worshipping during France vs England was nauseating.

Sorry, OT.

On D'Arcy, anyone think that he didn't look fit yesterday? He looked laboured, made a lot of handling errors and Scotland targeted his defence time and time again.[/QUOTE]

agree, he kept going in high on his opposite man, plus he's been targetted with drop offs where his height is being exposed. He's had a decent enough tournament though. Excellent v france.

Co45 · 21-03-2010 10:05AM

Heres another thing that irked me. Players like Trimble being completely shunned from the squad. Kidney talks about team development yet after one game where Trimble did nothing wrong and was actually our best back he is dropped never to be seen again. Trimble was our stand out winger before the 6 Nations and should of gotten more game time. Ditto for Court and Cullen.
We should of used this 6N to get Jennings game time. We were getting murdered on the ground by France and Scotland and both games would of been a perfect time to bring on Jennings yet we never saw it. We weren't these calls made?
Why on earth did Kidney only make changes so late in games. He had no problem benching Sexton after 50mins but O'Connell and Best who were having terrible games remained on the pitch. Wallace was being destroyed by Barclay yet still Kidney refused to bring on Jennings and Hayes was clearly struggling yet Buckley never came on. These calls have to be made. Not only were they the right calls they were good for squad development and general morale.
After this 6N I'm not sure if I like Kidney. Hes won us a GS that cannot be doubted but the man is full of contradictions. He talks of players having to earn their place after injury yet O'Callaghan is thrown back in right away instead of a brilliantly performing Cullen. He talks of squad development yet we see Hayes start every game and no other props getting meaningful gametime. He talks of players sticking their hands up in training and tough decisions to make yet no changes.
This is the EXACT problem we had with EOS. Both managers don't like to rotate and make changes.

Healy should of started every game as he needs experience, fair enough.

Best should of started bulk of games as he needs to get playing again but
Cronin damn well should of getting meaningful game time.

Hayes should of been dropped from squad completely in favour of Court with Buckley or Ross on the bench. The guy is finished and was getting murdered at the scrum, you have to make that call.

O'Connell should of been dropped. Very disappointing the call wasn't made and what a slap in the face to Cullen who was excellent in the 2 games he played.

O'Callaghan shouldn't of been parachauted straight back into the team and someone like Casey should of been tried out in at least one of the games. The O'Connell-O'Callaghan partnership is not above reproach and I really do think we should look into alternative partnerships be it Cullen-O'Callaghan, O'Connell-Casey or indeed Cullen-Casey.

Ferris is going to start every game hes fit for but I still would of liked to see McLaughlin make appearances off the bench as we really need to get this guy experience before the WC. Ferris is prone to injury and his replacement at 6 should be brought up to speed.

Wallace is a quality player but we have seen how he can fall apart on the ground. Jennings should of gotten a few starts with both subbing for each other. Jennings needs quality gametime and against France and Scotland would of been ideal games to bring him in and secure the breakdown. This wasn't done much to my astonishment and disappointment. If we were playing NZ and getting destroyed at the break down I doubt Kidney would make the call to bring on Jennings and bench a fantastic player in Wallace for the greater good if he cant even bring himself to do it against Scotland.

Heaslip is obviously going to start all games hes fit for as well but I still think Chris Henry should of gotten at least one start. Like the Ferris situation we need to look at back up though then again maybe Kidney sees Wallace as the replacement number 8. If thats the case though it makes it all the more baffling that Jennings didnt get some gametime at 7.

O'Leary played amazing against Wales, I'll give him that, but how he kept his place after the French game I'll never know. That was without doubt the worst performance I have ever seen from a scrumhalf and Kidney's persistance with O'Leary, Wales game aside, was detrimental to the team. O'Leary's passing is slow and poor and other options should of been tried in the shape of Isaac Boss.

I really don't think Sexton should of been brought off in the manner he was against Scotland. I really feel Kidney has probably lost the player's confidence for treating him in such a manner.

Earls was excellent other than France game and is really coming of age but lets not forget the less flashy Trimble is also young and excellent and should of also gotten a chance to prove himself like Earls did. Earls had a poor start yet got games to redeem himself, Trimble had a good start yet was never seen again. By all means start Earls for bulk of games but Trimble definitely should of been subbing on for Earls and even Bowe if Kidney really wants squad development.

D'arcy was solid throughtout the tournament other than yesterday but there was definitely a case for other options to be tried out there. Wallace was the obvious one but another less obvious one was Earls. I thought the Earls-O'Driscoll partnership looked brilliant when it happened and it was probably worth exploring. Earls has weaknesses in defence but no better teacher than O'Driscoll beside him to improve them.

O'Driscoll is, like Ferris and Heaslip, always going to start every game but like both Ferris and Heaslip he should not be immune to being subsituted in aid of developing alternatives at 13. I would of liked to see Bowe switching to 13 for some games and maybe even seeing McFadden subbing on for O'Driscoll in more closed games like against Italy and Wales. We really do need to be prepared should O'Driscoll get injured for the RWC. O'Sullivan never did this and Kidney seems to be falling into the same trap.

Bowe was amazing and is a certain starter but like O'Driscoll in the more closed games should of been subbed for players like Trimble who need gametime. We know Bowe is world class and when the game is won giving Trimble a chance to prove himself would of been worthwhile. It also sends out a messege to the team. Train well and you will get a chance to prove yourself no matter who is ahead of you be it O'Driscoll, Ferris, Heaslip or indeed Bowe

Murphy/Kearney thought Kidney handed this well in fairness to him.

Tim Robbins · 21-03-2010 10:19AM

What's the difference between Kidney and EOS? They are both very conservative. What irks me is that with Kidney we kick the ball waaaaay too much.

I don't understand this when you have world class strike runners, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Bowe, Earls, Murphy.

The hole point of tactics is your work to your strengths - so what's with all the kicking? Someone posted we kicked 45 times against Wales. In one of Kidney's first games against Argentina we kicked it 140 times. Even some of the grandslam matches from last year are unwatchable they are so bad.

gilmore · 21-03-2010 10:19AM

I agree that Hayes has reached the end of the road. He has always struggled one way or another with scrummaging. But if we're going to assess the scrummaging from yesterdays match let's do it in a fair and concise manner. Healy was without doubt absolutely shocking yesterday, completely screwed by a world class prop. Worst scrummaging performance i have ever seen.

Co45 · 21-03-2010 10:22AM

gilmore wrote: »

I agree that Hayes has reached the end of the road. He has always struggled one way or another with scrummaging. But if we're going to assess the scrummaging from yesterdays match let's do it in a fair and concise manner. Healy was without doubt absolutely shocking yesterday, completely screwed by a world class prop. Worst scrummaging performance i have ever seen.

In fairness I saw Hayes being pinged just as much. No one is doubting Healy still has a long way to go and he is learning every game but he is the future so I understand why Kidney is giving him this time to improve but Hayes is not and deserved to be replaced in favour of Court, Ross or Buckley.

gilmore · 21-03-2010 10:36AM

Co45 wrote: »

In fairness I saw Hayes being pinged just as much. No one is doubting Healy still has a long way to go and he is learning every game but he is the future so I understand why Kidney is giving him this time to improve but Hayes is not and deserved to be replaced in favour of Court, Ross or Buckley.

Point taken. I know Healy is a much better player than what we saw yesterday. I just hope he learns from this experience and becomes an even better player.

crisco10 · 21-03-2010 10:36AM

Co45 wrote: »

In fairness I saw Hayes being pinged just as much. No one is doubting Healy still has a long way to go and he is learning every game but he is the future so I understand why Kidney is giving him this time to improve but Hayes is not and deserved to be replaced in favour of Court, Ross or Buckley.

did Healy not end up winning two penalties off Murray at scrum time in the 3rd quarter?

21-03-2010 10:54AM

To be fair, the difference between EOS and DK is that we've had a team for the last two years.

DK got a great performance out the lads after the defeat in France and has gotten great games out of the boys after bad matches. Mistakes were made but thats part of the game, we were in a great state where we haven't had to worry about loosing games for a long time. Getting it wrong (both from a player and mangement perspective) is part of the game and its how we come back that defines us a team.

Kidney himself will learn from this performance so I think calling for his head is a bit premature.

phog · 21-03-2010 12:19PM

This tournament was by far the worst for the POC and BOD, they showed no leadership when needed (France and yesterday in particular) both should have got a fewe minutes on the bench to remind them that they are not invincible.

Prior to the 6Ns I was against using it to blood more talent but that shouldn't stop you making substitutions and yesterday after 60 or 70 minutes we needed change, I'd have brought on Leo, Reddan and Cronin to see would that have made a diference.

Irish player of the tournament was probably Bowe, most disappointing was O'Connell and O'Driscoll, especially yesterday :mad:

Best developing player was Earls and I would genuinely like to have said Sexton but he didn't in my eyes live up to the expections that I got from here.

The rest were average at best, with the exception of the Walse game there was no stand out performers or performance.

The only way is up

dixierip · 21-03-2010 12:28PM

I think Kidney is as he keeps stating developing a squad and this is what differs between him and O'Sullivan. Some changes are without called for and I'd imagine after much valiant service Hayes days are numbered. Kearney is a shadow of the player who starred for the Lions. He strikes me as someone who felt they'd made it and took his foot of the pedal. This was evident from the off with his lazy blocked down kick against Italy. Still v young and will hopefully come good.

Co45 · 21-03-2010 12:30PM

phog wrote: »

This tournament was by far the worst for the POC and BOD, they showed no leadership when needed (France and yesterday in particular) both should have got a fewe minutes on the bench to remind them that they are not invincible.

Personally I felt O'Driscoll was ok. He did nothing wrong really, french game aside. His leadership was fine, Against Scotland yesterday he made all the right calls and in fairness the area where we most struggled, the lineout, was O'Connell's call not O'Driscolls.
Against Wales O'Driscoll was amazing talking to the ref. Disappointing by his own high standards but nowhere near our worst performer in the tournament and not as disappointing as O'Connell.

Irish player of the tournament was probably Bowe

Without doubt.

Best developing player was Earls and I would genuinely like to have said Sexton but he didn't in my eyes live up to the expections that I got from here.

I'd agree. Though I will state Sexton exceeded my expectations outside of kicking. I didn't expect him to individually create so many tries and was really impressed with that aspect of his game. I've said it before but if Sexton had landed those kicks and played as he was (creating tries like that against England, Wales and against Scotland yesterday) he would probably have been hailed as one of our top performers. Unfortunately he couldn't get the kicking right. Its a mental block that needs to be addressed.

The only way is up

I don't know. Scotland are improving, England are improving, France are improving, Ireland are regressing.

bamboozle · 21-03-2010 01:11PM

Co45 wrote: »

Personally I felt O'Driscoll was ok. He did nothing wrong really, french game aside. His leadership was fine, Against Scotland yesterday he made all the right calls and in fairness the area where we most struggled, the lineout, was O'Connell's call not O'Driscolls.
Against Wales O'Driscoll was amazing talking to the ref. Disappointing by his own high standards but nowhere near our worst performer in the tournament and not as disappointing as O'Connell.

Without doubt.

I'd agree. Though I will state Sexton exceeded my expectations outside of kicking. I didn't expect him to individually create so many tries and was really impressed with that aspect of his game. I've said it before but if Sexton had landed those kicks and played as he was (creating tries like that against England, Wales and against Scotland yesterday) he would probably have been hailed as one of our top performers. Unfortunately he couldn't get the kicking right. Its a mental block that needs to be addressed.

I don't know. Scotland are improving, England are improving, France are improving, Ireland are regressing.

harsh to say we're regressing, like Wales we provided the bulk of the Lions squad and most of these players are exhausted and in need of a break. I think with SOB, Cronin, Earls, Healy,Sexton, McLaughlin we've a few good players introduced to international rugby. Bottom line is our scrum is a mess and we need Ross or Court in there to stabalise it. A steady scrum and we've the makings of a top quality team.

Superbus · 21-03-2010 01:35PM

It may be a Southern Hemisphere tour, but I still think that after that 6N we need to use the Summer Tour to extensively blood new players, or at least all the alternatives mentioned in this thread. The apparent 'stars' must be exhausted, nearly two long seasons without a break, so the Aus/NZ tour this June must be used to give them this break, and give people like Casey, Trimble, Cronin and Court starting experience against top sides.

Overall, this 6 Nations has to be seen as a disappointment, alternatives need to be explored.

Deleted User wrote: »

Kidney himself will learn from this performance so I think calling for his head is a bit premature.

I don't see anyone doing that, just some harmless, possibly deserved criticism.

JustinDee · 21-03-2010 01:43PM

bamboozle wrote: »

A steady scrum and we've the makings of a top quality team.

Scrum was not the problem yesterday. Unforced errors in the first half, an on-form Scotland kicker complemented with excellent breakdown and lineout play had more to do with it than anything else.
The Scots played out of their skins in the best way that they can manage within in their own skillset.

Only thing harder than winning a Grand Slam is repeating the feat the following year.

phog · 21-03-2010 01:45PM

Co45 wrote: »

Personally I felt O'Driscoll was ok. He did nothing wrong really, french game aside. His leadership was fine, Against Scotland yesterday he made all the right calls and in fairness the area where we most struggled, the lineout, was O'Connell's call not O'Driscolls.
Against Wales O'Driscoll was amazing talking to the ref. Disappointing by his own high standards but nowhere near our worst performer in the tournament and not as disappointing as O'Connell.

If you have high standards then that's what you're measured on and O'Driscoll was poor by those standards.

Leadership, yesterday, why go down the line if the first half when 3 points were available to us as it turned out the kick only went about 30 meters and the we over cooked the lineout throw. Next penalty, we go down the other line and lineout throw was crooked. Later, why go for three points when it was only going to get us a draw when we should have gone for the corner and possibly a try to win?

phog · 21-03-2010 01:47PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Scrum was not the problem yesterday. Unforced errors in the first half, an on-form Scotland kicker complemented with excellent breakdown and lineout play had more to do with it than anything else.
The Scots played out of their skins in the best way that they can manage within in their own skillset.

Only thing harder than winning a Grand Slam is repeating the feat the following year.

Agreed but the our performance throughout the tournament was disappointing, that what makes it so hard to take, we played poor, lost two matches and still finished 2nd, what might have happened if we played the full tournament like we played against Wales?

thehighground · 21-03-2010 01:50PM

This thread gives credence to the idea that no matter what the management team did, unless they won the Grand Slam they were going to get criticised for it. If they blooded more players and we lost more matches, there would have been blood on the carpet.

The positives of the 6Ns: Cian Healy, Sexton & Earls. All now well blooded.

Healy had a tough 6Ns - and he has had a really tough season so far. He is probably the reason why Hayes was played so much - Kidney was not going to have Mushy & Healy starting in the same front row against one of the best front rows in world rugby. Added to that Best coming back from a long layoff (and who had a bad day at the office yesterday). Cronin is too experienced to bring onto that.

I think the development of the front row would have been different if Marcus Horan was fit & Flannery was available - resting Healy and starting Mushy would have been an option then (going for youth & experience).

Sexton has now to deal with his biggest challenge of coming back from a very tough 6Ns. No one can complain that he wasn't given every opportunity to come good. We will see now what he is made of. I made the comment last week that I thought he should have been benched for this game and brought on at half time when hopefully the team were winning - but maybe this is better in the long run - if he comes back from this, he will be the better player in the long run.

Earls has come on no end - to be one of the top try scorers in this 6Ns is some achievement particularly since he played in 3 different positions. His confidence must be brimming. He was the most successful blooding of the three youngsters.

O'Leary (still relatively few caps) is going to be top class I think. Consistency is what he needs to work on - but I don't think Reddan is anyway close to him now - Reddan isn't physical enough.

BOD did not have a great tournament, which was one of the major differences to last year. Added to that, Ferris' form wasn't great (apart from England) and Heislip went missing yesterday (probably because the scrum was getting hammered). DOC was the first to every ruck yesterday and that is probably why Cullen wasn't brought on for him to help sort out the lineout. Having the experience of Leamy to come on was also missed (remember he came on against Wales for Ferris and had a blinder for the GS last season).

I think we could have done better with Geordan Murphy's leadership qualities on Saturday - in previous games he was doing a lot of the talking organising from the back and that was missed when he went off.

In general I'm not too disappointed. There was only 3pts in it on Saturday (bearing in mind that nothing was going right for them). So with a few coming back (like Flannery, Leamy, Horan, Fitzy & Ryan to improve depth), I'm not quite giving up on them just yet.

JustinDee · 21-03-2010 01:53PM

phog wrote: »

Agreed but the our performance throughout the tournament was disappointing, that what makes it so hard to take, we played poor, lost two matches and still finished 2nd, what might have happened if we played the full tournament like we played against Wales?

I know its a cliche but a tournament isn't approached en masse. Each game is analysed, planned and drilled ahead based on its own tenets ie. one game at a time.
Those players are as psyched up for each game as the last. Personally, I hate my team losing. Last night after the game was very sombre indeed. Plenty to work on and I'd rather this all happened now than say, next 6N or June tours in the lead up to the RWC. So long as 'we' learn from it, I'd put it down as a pretty vital experience in this team's shaping.

I also think the plaudits for Scotland's performance have gone missing in many of the posts here. Their performance isn't an excuse. Its an unavoidable fact.

I'm off to watch the game recorded now. Later.

anonymous_joe · 21-03-2010 07:23PM

thehighground wrote: »

This thread gives credence to the idea that no matter what the management team did, unless they won the Grand Slam they were going to get criticised for it. If they blooded more players and we lost more matches, there would have been blood on the carpet.

I know we've had more than a few disagreements, but I do agree with this. There was a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

In saying that, I'd agree a lot with Co45's points. We could have done this better.

In general I'm not too disappointed. There was only 3pts in it on Saturday (bearing in mind that nothing was going right for them). So with a few coming back (like Flannery, Leamy, Horan, Fitzy & Ryan to improve depth), I'm not quite giving up on them just yet.

I'm almost glad we didn't sneak the win. We played poorly, and should have lost. We need to play a different tactical game.

Dave Joyce · 21-03-2010 09:25PM

I don't want to start by bitching but when I started a thread BEFORE we asked not to, saying pretty much the same as what has been posted here, it was locked down:mad:

However, some very valid points on this thread but some I downright disagree with.

Scrum was not the problem yesterday

Yes, I agree that unforced errors and the other points about the Scots you made are correct, how in Gods name can you say that THE SCRUM was not a problem yesterday, it was a DISASTER!

This thread gives credence to the idea that no matter what the management team did, unless they won the Grand Slam they were going to get criticised for it. If they blooded more players and we lost more matches, there would have been blood on the carpet.

Perhaps, BUT I don't agree. IF we lost the GS/TC but managed to blood some of the upcoming members of the squad properly, then it might have been worth it IMHO. It was shameful that some of the guys mentioned by a LOT OF POSTERS in this thread were not brought into the game.

Finally, unfortunately I don't share the optimisium of some posters:(. We are now facing into end of season SH tour, AI's and then the next 6N before the RWC. Now honestly lads can you see the management giving the deserving members of the squad a chance to get enough game time to realistically give the RWC a right good go??? I don't:(

Podge_irl · 21-03-2010 10:02PM

thehighground wrote: »

Healy had a tough 6Ns - and he has had a really tough season so far. He is probably the reason why Hayes was played so much - Kidney was not going to have Mushy & Healy starting in the same front row against one of the best front rows in world rugby. Added to that Best coming back from a long layoff (and who had a bad day at the office yesterday). Cronin is too experienced to bring onto that.

I understand what you're saying, but if that really was Kidney's logic I can't even remotely agree with it. Having Hayes in that scrum was doing nothing to help Healy, it was only hindering him. This is one of those times where I just don't understand the "experience" argument. The scrum was in tatters (and the line out against Scotland), it's not as if it could have gotten much worse. If anything, Court/Buckley stabilised the scrum the times they were on at TH. Brining Buckley on at 79 minutes was a complete joke. I can't for the life of me fathom why any coach does that kind of thing and it's an insult to think that that counts as a cap. The whole TH situation was Kidney's biggest failing in this 6N imo.

Reddan isn't physical enough.

I don't think Reddan's physicality is an issue. This fascination with flankeresque scrum halves is a fairly recent affair. Reddan's problem is his appalling decision making. TOL is the best of a poor enough bunch. I would have replaced him after France, but in fairness to him he was excellent against Wales and it's not as if scrum half was the problem position yesterday.

I'd like to think that the poor showing in the 6N will benefit Ireland in the long run. Kidney is comparatively new to being a head coach of an international team after all, and if we allow new caps some leeway then he should get some too. I do wish he'd stop talking about building a squad when his actions show him doing anything but though.

Co45 · 21-03-2010 10:16PM

thehighground wrote: »

This thread gives credence to the idea that no matter what the management team did, unless they won the Grand Slam they were going to get criticised for it. If they blooded more players and we lost more matches, there would have been blood on the carpet.

Completely disagree. I would of taken defeat if it meant developing a squad for the WC and experimenting.

Healy had a tough 6Ns - and he has had a really tough season so far. He is probably the reason why Hayes was played so much - Kidney was not going to have Mushy & Healy starting in the same front row against one of the best front rows in world rugby. Added to that Best coming back from a long layoff (and who had a bad day at the office yesterday). Cronin is too experienced to bring onto that.

tbh I think Hayes impeeded Healy. When Court was played at tighthead the scrum shored up straight away. A lot of times it was Hayes penalised not Healy in the last few games. Either way I'd like to see Court at TH. Also no matter how inexperienced Cronin was there was no way he could do any worse than Best. Kidney should of shown faith in Cronin.

I think the development of the front row would have been different if Marcus Horan was fit & Flannery was available - resting Healy and starting Mushy would have been an option then (going for youth & experience).

It would of been a damn shame to see Horan and Buckley starting ahead of Healy and Court in my eyes.

O'Leary (still relatively few caps) is going to be top class I think. Consistency is what he needs to work on - but I don't think Reddan is anyway close to him now - Reddan isn't physical enough.

Unfortunately we never got a chance to see if Reddan or Boss were close to him. Boss is ahead of O'Leary in every aspect of play from what I've seen so far. Shame Kidney didn't experiment.

BOD did not have a great tournament, which was one of the major differences to last year. Added to that, Ferris' form wasn't great (apart from England) and Heislip went missing yesterday (probably because the scrum was getting hammered). DOC was the first to every ruck yesterday and that is probably why Cullen wasn't brought on for him to help sort out the lineout. Having the experience of Leamy to come on was also missed (remember he came on against Wales for Ferris and had a blinder for the GS last season).

Can't see who Leamy could come on for and really don't think his form when he was playing would merit it either. Henry, Jennings, McLaughlin and O'Brien are all rightly ahead of him. Also Cullen should of been brought in for O'Connell thats the point

siltirocker · 21-03-2010 10:47PM

Co45 wrote: »

Also no matter how inexperienced Cronin was there was no way he could do any worse than Best. Kidney should of shown faith in Cronin.

Here here.

anonymous_joe · 21-03-2010 10:59PM

JustinDee wrote: »

I also think the plaudits for Scotland's performance have gone missing in many of the posts here. Their performance isn't an excuse. Its an unavoidable fact.

I know myself, I struggle to look at the other side when supporting my own team. I'll always look at what Ireland/United/Leinster/whoever are doing right or wrong, not the others.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Yes, I agree that unforced errors and the other points about the Scots you made are correct, how in Gods name can you say that THE SCRUM was not a problem yesterday, it was a DISASTER!

It's always a disaster though. It wasn't what cost us the game, though a good scrum would not at all go amiss.

Co45 wrote: »

Unfortunately we never got a chance to see if Reddan or Boss were close to him. Boss is ahead of O'Leary in every aspect of play from what I've seen so far. Shame Kidney didn't experiment.

Can't see who Leamy could come on for and really don't think his form when he was playing would merit it either. Henry, Jennings, McLaughlin and O'Brien are all rightly ahead of him. Also Cullen should of been brought in for O'Connell thats the point

Just on these two points; one of our weaknesses in (recent) rugby is that we're big on sacred cows. O'Connell, O'Driscoll, O'Leary and a few others are undroppable. That's a very very unhealthy mindset, no matter how good the players involved. O'Connell's one of the ballsiest players I've ever seen, and I seriously doubt he'd object to being taken off if playing badly. He's a man, he can take it. Even turning to O'Gara so quickly was indicative of our problems - we look to the old reliables too soon. O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Casey, Mal, etc are all or have all been of a similar level. Why do two of that three have so many less caps than the others? That would not happen anywhere else in the world, other than England, and only Johnson's England. And look where they are.

marco_polo · 21-03-2010 11:02PM

Alot of work to do over the next year or so, and a very disappointing result yesterday no doubt, however in a funny way I would almost more worried if we were absolutely flying 18 odd months out from a world cup (just ask the Kiwis).

I foresee a tough time ahead in the Summer as well, at the end of a long long Lions season, but it is just a matter of rolling up the sleves and getting through it, hopefully blooding a few players along the way and regrouping for next season.

Reason to be a little worried on the basis of yesterdays performance, but certainly no reason to panic. ( I am old enough to have vividly memories of the late 80s early 90s

)

pappyodaniel · 21-03-2010 11:15PM

marco_polo wrote: »

( I am old enough to have vividly memories of the late 80s early 90s )

Oh God ya, I was young then and had ambitions to play for Ireland. The national team were so poor back then that I wasn't being over ambitious either! Every 5 nations game back then, after yet another hammering, I used to cycle down to the local rugby pitch on my own to do laps, sprints and kicking&passing drills until it was dark. Subconciously I reckon I was punishing myself for Ireland being so dreadfully poor but in my head I wanted to play for Ireland and transform rugby in Ireland. Little did I know, there was another young fella my age up in Clontarf, probably doing the same. He realised his ambitions, and then some.

Madworld · 22-03-2010 01:03AM

Kidney should do a Lievermont on this SH tour and blood more players. Take a trashing as they are only friendlies

Here is a list of players I d love to see get more games to really add more depth to the squad
Casey, Cullen, Ross, Andress, Cronin, N Best, Jennings, O Brien, McLaughlin, R Ruddock, Conway, O Halloran, Dom Ryan, Trimble, Cave, Keatley and if I was a small bit more sober I d probably come up with a few more

Dempsey · 22-03-2010 01:34AM

Co45 wrote: »

So now that the 6 nations is over what have we learned?

Murphy/Kearney -
Murphy has shown that he is more than able to step in and do a job for Ireland. Hes been fantastic and really the unsung hero this campaign. Kearney is going through a bad patch at the moment and he needs to get his confidence back. Also lets not villify him for holding on today, it happens. Not one player on this Irish team hasn't given away a similiar penalty. People forget Kearney is still young and is always improving. On the Lions tour he matured so much as a player.. lets hope he can regain this form.

Bowe -
Hes really been an invaluable player for us and is the main weapon in our attack. For me he is next to O'Driscoll as one of our most important players.

O'Driscoll -
BOD is BOD. Solid throughout but never spectacular.

D'arcy -
Bad game today but hes had a good campaign if not spectacular. Still I would've liked to see Wallace getting more game time. I'll come back to that point though.

Earls -
Hes improved tremendously on his tour and is really maturing. Recovered very well from a poor performance against France and is really starting to excude confidence

Sexton -
Obviously needs to improve his kicking but he really impressed me in all other areas. He created tries out of nothing and Ireland needs a player like that. I really hope he isn't too affected by today and think it was a bad call by Kidney trying to sub him before the conversion but I'll get back to that.

O'Leary -
Excellent game against Wales but other than that he was poor. He simply doesn't impress me. Needs to improve his passing and speed of passing. Would like to see Ireland look to other options

Heaslip -
great tournament did a lot of thankless work on the ground and a really important member of the team.

Wallace -
Excellent throughout but has been really showed up on the ground against France most notably but also today by Barclay. Hes an excellent ball carrier but he needs to improve his ground work.

Ferris -
The man has been a monster at the breakdown and really is vital to the Irish forwards.

O'Connell -
Very disappointing championship from POC and I believe he should of been dropped. I'll get back to that though.

O'Callaghan -
Was solid but nowhere near as effective as Cullen and think he was very lucky to get his place I'll get back to that as well though.

Hayes -
Hes finished. Great servant but its over for him. Wish him all the best.

Best -
My god that was a terrible performance today but in fairness to the guy he has been good throughout. Earls, O'Leary and Wallace all had dreadful games against France and by the end of the tournament were our best performers so I wouldn't hang Best out to dry for one bad game like a lot of posters have been doing.

Healy -
Constantly improving and maturing as a player. His scrummaging has come on leaps and bounds since the AIs and hopefully this continues.

Cullen -
Very unfortunate, in the two games he played he was immense and showed more than both O'Callaghan and O'Connell did all tournament.

O'Gara -
Horrible game against France but proved how valuable his experience is against Wales and today against Scotland.

The Coaching Staff and Kidney -
I'm disappointed if I'm honest. Kidney's refusal to blood a new tighthead was criminal and so bloody frustrating. His dropping of Court who had been very good for Buckley was even more so. I couldn't believe Hayes was starting against Scotland and couldn't believe he stayed on for so long. His refusal to give Cronin any sort of meaningful gametime was a joke as well. Where he really disappointed me however was his treatment of Cullen. After ****ing on about how players coming back from injury have to play their way back into the team he goes and drops our best performer in the opening two games for O'Callaghan coming back from injury. Thats got to leave a bitter taste. Kidney is known for making the big calls but his refusal to drop O'Connell when the guy was clearly in poor form was a disgrace. You have to make those calls especially when the alternative is Cullen.
Today I thought he handled Sexton very poorly. What a smack in the face to Sexton to bring him off just before the conversion. Winning isn't everything especially when the prize on offer is a consolation trophy and the consequence of it is showing a young player whose going to have a key role in this squad for years to come, most notably the RWC, that you have no confidence in him.
Kidneys use of the bench was so poor. He simply didn't trust the likes of Cronin, Jennings, Buckley and Cullen today despite all 4 being desperately needed. Best's throwing was off, the lineout was in tatters, O'Connell playing terribly, Hayes getting slaughtered in the scrum and Wallace being completely outmuscled by Barclay and yet still Kidney refused to play them.
I wouldn't of minded losing today if it was in aid of development. We saw none of that today and the way Kidney handled it was without doubt damaging to the squad morale. Overly cautious and something I don't like to see.
All the other coaches did a fine job. Our defence was excellent and Gaffney seems to have created some brilliant backline moves but Kidney's selections and use of substitutions have really disappointed me.
I really would of liked to see Casey being brought into the squad. The guys going to be around for the World Cup and I think it would of been very interesting to see a Casey-Cullen combination. ffs experiment look at the French, they have such crazy depth and experience because they try things out and cap players. They always get it right for the WC.

Anyway guys this took me a long time to write so if you're not interested in validly discusing then please steer clear as i dont want it locked

Fully agreed with the post except for the following,

Sexton isnt that good

is there better than POC, its an argument at best imo

The real crime of this tournament is the slowness of the manangement to correct the team and develop players, namely the scrum.

There is no doubt that Kidney was the right choice at the time but what about now...what has Ireland learned...we have been humiliated during this 6N(considering the talent available) imo,

Kidney has always been projected as flawless but the sexton/ograra mistake and slowness to make the right changes lead me to believe that he is definitely a man learning at this level. That doesnt make him wrong for the job but the 2 matches where we needed to perform (France & Scotland), we were desperate imo

[Jackass] · 22-03-2010 03:30AM

Rugby, it's a fickle game.

The likes of Kidney got his job after securing two Heineken Cups in three seasons. He then went on to coach a grand slam winning team for the first time in 60 odd years.

Gaffney has coached Leinster to an impressive Magners League win all those years ago, as well as coaching a Leinster backline that got firing towards the end of a Heineken Cup winning season and coached a grand slam winning backline.

We have excellent defence and forwards coaching also, again, gaining a grand slam.

We've beaten the world champions and got into seeded status for the world cup and drew with SH heavyweights Australia and didn't get going vs All Blacks. But we could have had 2 out of 3, and that's not a bad return either.

We've found great alternatives in the front row, going from virtually nothing but first string plus best to having Healy vs Horan, Best vs Flannery vs Cronin, and Hayes vs Court & Buckley. Also, Ross is now in line for Leinster starts seeing as how impressive he's been and how sh*t CJ Van Der Linde has been (lazy mercanery).

In the second row, we've gone from DOC + POC with the backup of the useless MOD, to having Cullen well in the mix and Ryan seeing gametime also iirc. He still has Toner, Casey & Caldwell to call upon if he wants to explore more options.

In the backrow, he's introduced the likes of McLoughlin, Jennings and SO'B into the mix of Wallace, Leamy, Heaslip & Ferris.

He's let the scrum half position go from Stringer vs TOL, to introducing (back) Reddan and and Boss.

Outhalf has gone from ROG or Wallace to ROG, Wallace or Sexton, centre has seen the emergence of the likes of McFadden, brought D'Arcy back and retained the options of Wallace and O'Driscoll as well as Earls being given a run there.

On the wings, Earls has come in to establish himself, he's given Trimble a well earned shot and still has the options of Bowe & Fitz.

At Full-Back, he's gone from the option of just Kearney and brought Murphy back into the picture.

The point is, yes, he hasn't blooded every single young player we can think of, but he's also overseen a lot of A level new caps, getting as many promising players into a green jersey as possible. But the main point is, he is developing a massive scope for depth, and believe it or not, has added a lot more depth to the squad over the last year than we ever had under EOS.

Admitedly, it was a poor season. Very poor in fact, by our high and sometimes unjustifiable standards.

We also know that a lot of these youngs players are getting A game time and provincial game time and we have another whole season and 11 (iirc) full international left until the World Cup squad is announced.

There's a lot of provincial and international rugby left to be played, and I don't really give a sh*t about the 6 nations as long as we get a squad with great depth and lots of viable options in every position on a plane to New Zealand.

So, we did poor, he probably made some bad decisions this season, and also a lot of players didn't really do themselves justice, but most of them played a hell of a lot of rugby last season between Heineken Cup Semis / final and Lions tour, and have all played most games this season, and it's been a long season, but I think looking at the bigger picture, we are still making lots of progress and still have a good momentum of building a world cup side behind us.

I don't accept poor campaign and your out. Munster crashed out of the Heineken Cup in 2007 after a very poor campaign against Scarlets and didn't really get up to much in the Magners League either.

Yet, had they have fired Kidney after a bad campaign following a superb season (very simular to his current position) they may be without the glory of a second Heineken Cup they won the following season.

Don't be fickle, the man and the coach and the squad all have proven track records. Keep an eye on the bigger picture, not the quick fix, and have faith in the set up, it's getting there, when you look at it closely.

ozt9vdujny3srf · 22-03-2010 03:50AM

Madworld wrote: »

Kidney should do a Lievermont on this SH tour and blood more players. Take a trashing as they are only friendlies

Rugby doesn't have friendlies, it has test matches. We don't have anywhere near enough quality players to pull off a "Lièvremont" without getting embarrassing cricket scores put up against us.

The way to go is for Kidney to drip feed quality players into the team player by player until we have our world cup squad ready.

Podge_irl · 22-03-2010 05:27AM

[Jackass] wrote: »

We've found great alternatives in the front row, going from virtually nothing but first string plus best to having Healy vs Horan, Best vs Flannery vs Cronin, and Hayes vs Court & Buckley. Also, Ross is now in line for Leinster starts seeing as how impressive he's been and how sh*t CJ Van Der Linde has been (lazy mercanery).

In the second row, we've gone from DOC + POC with the backup of the useless MOD, to having Cullen well in the mix and Ryan seeing gametime also iirc. He still has Toner, Casey & Caldwell to call upon if he wants to explore more options.

In the backrow, he's introduced the likes of McLoughlin, Jennings and SO'B into the mix of Wallace, Leamy, Heaslip & Ferris.

He's let the scrum half position go from Stringer vs TOL, to introducing (back) Reddan and and Boss.

Outhalf has gone from ROG or Wallace to ROG, Wallace or Sexton, centre has seen the emergence of the likes of McFadden, brought D'Arcy back and retained the options of Wallace and O'Driscoll as well as Earls being given a run there.

On the wings, Earls has come in to establish himself, he's given Trimble a well earned shot and still has the options of Bowe & Fitz.

At Full-Back, he's gone from the option of just Kearney and brought Murphy back into the picture.

I suppose everyone can look at this a different way, and I'm probably being overly negative to make a point, but you could view nearly all those things awfully differently. Rather than introduce competition for places he has essentially stated that he has no faith in any other than about 17 players. When the scrum is going as poorly as it was all 6N and he refuses to replace or substitute Hayes it shows he has no confidence in the back up players. Court (who was handled awfully imo) and Buckley were implicitly being told they are worse than a 36 year old going backwards in every single scrum. Cronin didn't get a look in at all, here or in the AIs, and in the Scotland game especially that was criminal. That's not encouraging competition or building a squad. It's doing lip service to the idea without following through.

Cullen is not in competition with POC/DOC. That's plainly obvious. As soon as DOC was fit he was stuck right back in ahead of Cullen, despite the latter playing excellently. DOC actually played very well so that worked out, but POC should have been subbed for Cullen at about 50 mins on Satuday (actually, Cullen was by far the better of the two of them over the tournament and on purely that form would have merited a start over POC). Similarly McLaughlin was dropped straight away for Ferris (which I've no problem with btw) and Jennings saw essentially no game time. I fail to see how that is introducing players into the mix, it's telling players they're there as backup in case the first choice gets injured.

Trimble was given one game, played reasonably well, and then seemingly dropped out of all contention. He only brought Murphy back as Kearney was injured. There was basically no other option.

I'm undoubtedly being overly critical here, and I would like to emphasis that I don't think Kidney should go or anything, but it's been getting on my nerves ever since he was announced as coach and people claimed that he'd do so much better at building a squad and encouraging competition than EOS ever did. Anyone who paid the slightest attention to his tenure at Munster would have seen that he always stuck his favoured players right back in as soon as possible after injury or international duty. He is a conservative coach by nature. And Munster were exceptionally successful doing that, so fair play to him. But there is no more competition in the squad than there was 2 years ago. Anyone hoping for him to experiment wildly in the summer tours is going to be disappointed - not something I have a problem with as I agree with Kidney's philosophy in that regard. They're test matches and they're there to win. You can introduce new players, but only if you think they'll bring something to the squad, not as some exercise in "blooding" new players. However, if he starts Hayes at all or continues his refusal to use subs then questions will have to be asked.

[Jackass] · 22-03-2010 07:29AM

I can understand the points, and I am a little frustrated with a few selections, such as hooker, I think Cronin should have gotten a start. I think he also should have been brought on a couple of times, so that was slightly disappointing, but Flannery and Best are both excellent options on their day, so I do feel like we have strong depth there.

I think he's slowly but surely addressing the tighthead option also, Buckley has been doing better recently, and has got some game time, as has Court, but we really need someone to step up. I don't think it's an option to call in Ross until he is getting regular game time with Leinster. Also, it would be good to see some young players getting a shot, such as Ryan, but playing out of the country is never doing you any favours (stupid move by him, next in line after Hayes for Munster and looked promising...don't even know how he's getting on now...out of sight, out of mind).

I also think, personally, that certain players should have forced their way into the team. I think Jennings is the best 7 we have. But he was even behind the likes of O'Brien (who's he's ahead of at Leinster) for the 7 shirt, but it's clear that that's about the type of game Kidney wants to play, and Jennings is the best ball winner and best out and out 7 we have, but Kidney seems to want a very abbrasive, ball carrying back row, which Jennings doesn't offer compared to the likes of O'Brien and Wallace, but he has O'Brien lined up to replace Wallace should the need arise. As with blind side, he's found a very simular young backup to Ferris in McLoughlin, simular style of player and great carrier, all in all, we've great depth in the back-row. He's also letting some of the older guys go in order to look to the future, such as Quinlan. At 8, he's still got options such as Leamy after Heaslip also.

Another concern was his inability to drop either second row, and I think Cullen has been the form Irish second row for some time. His set piece ability and work rate are phenominal, but again, he's not as abrassive and aggressive in the loose as POC & DOC, but he's established himself as a very viable and capable back-up, which we didn't really have before. I also think Casey should have been in the squad and see game time, but that's more of an IRFU directive than a Kidney decision. Given all being on equal form, the best second-row combo is DOC & POC, so I can see why he wanted to give them as much game time as possible to rekindle the relationship...they are his tried and trusted after all. As for the young guys, Ryan, Caldwell, Toner etc., they aren't seeing the game time, they are all bench players at their province, and don't really merrit a call up...Caldwell and Toner in paticular have both had very poor seasons.

I know it's frustrating, but the depth is building, and I'd imagine other players like McFadden will be given a start next season. Not only do I think he'll be the natural replacement for D'Arcy (very simular style and can also play 13 like D'Arcy) but he offers a goal kicking option. And given his form for Leinster in most games he's played, and given the fact that it seems Kidney recognises the fact that Sexton will be first choice for the world cup, he would certainly explore McFadden at 12 who also offers a superb kicking alternative I'd imagine, to have a second man to go to if Sexton has an off day, whilst also retaining Sextons threat and play-making from 10.

Back 3 and scrum half are all well covered imo, so really, all he needs to do is wait and see who steps up from now on. A 3 will emerge, my money is on Ross, but he's sorted a lot of problem areas of depth and we've seen we can play rugby under him, and there's still a few problems to sort out, but there's still plenty of time to do that.

I understand the frustration, but think it's madness that people here think his job should be in jeaprody. He's taking us to the world cup, it's a long project and everything in between is semantics, he's given us the grand slam, now lets just concentrate on the world cup...we can look at more grand slams / championships after that, but it's not like it was a complete disastor, we were in the hunt for the championship coming into the last game of it, so it's not like it's back to the wooden spoon era, I think people should mellow and keep an eye on the big picture, be patient and remember what the objective is. And Kidney has to play the wait and see game also in who he wants to add to his plans for the world cup...we are going there to win the feckin thing, and who knows?

Sometimes I'd love a Gatland approach and throw Conway in at 15 or something, but that's not how Kidney roles, and I trust his judgement.

Talk to me after the world cup and I'll let you know what I think of his position then.

thomond2006 · 22-03-2010 07:36AM

[Jackass] wrote: »

Talk to me after the world cup and I'll let you know what I think of his position then.

I just hope the IRFU don't jinx it and give Kidney a four year contract before the World Cup. :P

JustinDee · 22-03-2010 08:33AM

Co45 wrote: »

Sexton -
Obviously needs to improve his kicking but he really impressed me in all other areas. He created tries out of nothing and Ireland needs a player like that. I really hope he isn't too affected by today and think it was a bad call by Kidney trying to sub him before the conversion but I'll get back to that

Firstly, it was a penalty and not a conversion.
The referee didn't hear of the substitution in his earpiece, play went on and penalty was blown, all the while ROG is standing on sideline waiting to come on.

I disagree with your post on O'Callaghan, by the way. He had a very good game on Saturday. Took all his lineout ball, tackled well, supported in rucks extremely well and made some decent ground with ball in hand.
Thats why he is picked.

JustinDee · 22-03-2010 08:35AM

[Jackass] wrote: »

I also think Casey should have been in the squad and see game time, but that's more of an IRFU directive than a Kidney decision

???
Declan Kidney, his coaches and manager are the people who make the decisions on player selection. Not the union or anybody else.

bamboozle · 22-03-2010 08:57AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Firstly, it was a penalty and not a conversion.
The referee didn't hear of the substitution in his earpiece, play went on and penalty was blown, all the while ROG is standing on sideline waiting to come on.

I disagree with your post on O'Callaghan, by the way. He had a very good game on Saturday. Took all his lineout ball, tackled well, supported in rucks extremely well and made some decent ground with ball in hand.
Thats why he is picked.

in his 3 games since DOC came in, have a look at his penalty count, specifically penalty's he's given away that ended up as 3 pointers. He's 60 plus caps, time to step up and act as a senior member of the squad.
POC's handling has been appaling, i counted 9 knock on's and that's not including the Italian game which i cant remember. He needs a rest and time to re-energise and refocus.

dub_skav · 22-03-2010 09:04AM

some good points on squad building jackass. I don't 100% agree, but it's not all bad. My major issue is that kidney seems to do all his work before the match, no change of gameplan, no use of substitutions. There are worrying signs that while he does many things well he does not manage the actual game well. I hope he proves me wrong, but to see cullen warning up for the whole 2nd half only to be left on the bench was disappointing

Co45 · 22-03-2010 09:40AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Firstly, it was a penalty and not a conversion.
The referee didn't hear of the substitution in his earpiece, play went on and penalty was blown, all the while ROG is standing on sideline waiting to come on.

I disagree with your post on O'Callaghan, by the way. He had a very good game on Saturday. Took all his lineout ball, tackled well, supported in rucks extremely well and made some decent ground with ball in hand.
Thats why he is picked.

I meant he was very lucky to get ahead of our best performing second row in the first place. Against Scotland O'Connell should of came off for Cullen. It seems in the Irish squad there are irreplacables, DOC-POC, Hayes, O'Leary who should of all been dropped but werent. Against Scotland Jennings should of been brought on but wasn't, Cronin should of been brought on but wasn't. If Kidney isn't willing to bring on Cullen, Cronin and Jennings when the lineout and break down was in such tatters then when will he be? Whats the point in having them on the bench if he wont use them when they're needed? Its just like EOS, injury subsitutions unless your an old guard (i.e O'Gara)

Otacon · 22-03-2010 10:52AM

Why would DOC have come off? He was our best forward? Fair enough, take off POC for Cullen but DOC was immense.

Co45 · 22-03-2010 01:14PM

Otacon wrote: »

Why would DOC have come off? He was our best forward? Fair enough, take off POC for Cullen but DOC was immense.

That is exactly what I said.

Otacon · 22-03-2010 01:21PM

Co45 wrote: »

That is exactly what I said.

Apologies, my eyes deceive me. In that case, +1.

nacho libre · 22-03-2010 02:37PM

according to Paul Ackford(Daily Telegraph rubgy journalist), Cullen was out of his depth against France. I thought that was overly harsh as he was very good in the lineout but not as effective in the loose as DOC or POC- not that POC was great either. Interestingly Kidney was defending Saturday's defeat by saying the team was trying new things to improve as a team. So it definitely suggests they had a complacent mentality going into the game. If he is sincere about wanting to try new things he has to take risks and try out new players. It's true "there are no friendlies in international rugby" but i think it's worth the risk of shipping a 30 point loss during the summer if Kidney discovers new options and we gain in the long run - i don't think many supporters will remember a 30 point defeat to Australia during the Summer if we incrementally improve thereafter and end up getting to the semi-final of the next world cup.

smurphy29 · 22-03-2010 02:39PM

I think it was a disppointing campaign - three wins out of five is a poor return, and I think the feeling remains that while we developed a couple of players - Earls, Sexton and Healy namely - more could have been achieved in that department.

A lot of people are questioning the decisions to stick with O'Leary and bring back DOC, and while it was harsh personally on Cullen because he acquitted himself well, you would have to say DOC justified his selection. POC had a mixed bag of a series but it would have been a huge call to drop our pack leader for Leo. I was calling for TOL to be cut after the France game, but in fairness to him he rewarded Kidney's faith with a good improvement. He will never be a good passer, but he is a decent player for us, and none of the other options are that compelling.

I think the management will regret the decision to stick with the same team for yesterday's game. Being the last game in Croker against a wooden-spoon chasing Scotland, a bit of complacency slipped into the ranks (see Ferris comments this morning). Last year Kidney's decision to shake the team up in Round 4 kept everyone on their toes. Playing Buckley, Cullen, and maybe Jennings and Reddan would have done likewise I think, as well as developing a couple of options for the future. Also, D'arcy should not have been picked - we have a high class alternative at 12 and should have had faith in him. The lack of use of the bench spoke volumes yesterday - perhaps Kidney just does not trust those players.

Risteard · 22-03-2010 03:01PM

smurphy29 wrote: »

I think the management will regret the decision to stick with the same team for yesterday's game. Being the last game in Croker against a wooden-spoon chasing Scotland, a bit of complacency slipped into the ranks (see Ferris comments this morning). Last year Kidney's decision to shake the team up in Round 4 kept everyone on their toes. Playing Buckley, Cullen, and maybe Jennings and Reddan would have done likewise I think, as well as developing a couple of options for the future. Also, D'arcy should not have been picked - we have a high class alternative at 12 and should have had faith in him. The lack of use of the bench spoke volumes yesterday - perhaps Kidney just does not trust those players.

I disagree with the bolded part the rest is spot on IMO.

I couldn't help feeling towards the end of the match that if some of the squad players had started that they would have felt something to prove and maybe performed better.

Dave Joyce · 22-03-2010 05:41PM

Just to clarify, I, like a lot of posters don't want/think Declan Kidneys job is even been discussed here, but we do have a right to critisize when we perceive mistakes/bad judgements calls/choices.

Anyone hoping for him to experiment wildly in the summer tours is going to be disappointed - not something I have a problem with as I agree with Kidney's philosophy in that regard. They're test matches and they're there to win. You can introduce new players, but only if you think they'll bring something to the squad, not as some exercise in "blooding" new players.

Granted, but and this is a big BUT, when WILL these guys actually get game time if that's the case. We have problem areas (FFS, the problems with John Hayes was there in EOS time and where have we got to with that:eek:). Gametime with the respective provinces (God help Sean Cronin, as that will count for NOTHING in his case:() and the A's will not help/be enough to start AND we have seen THIS VERY THING with this particular championship. If we are even targetting a semi final place in the RWC, we need to start getting some of this sorted NOW or ASAP!

Finally, I think the Bull has been a stalwart for Ireland and I fecking HATE how all of the great contributions he has made to Irish international rugby are been lost/forgotten in all this. Its a lousy legacy to leave and its certainly not his fault.

Review of Irish Management and Team.Mod Warning Post no.95

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Review of Irish Management and Team.*Mod Warning Post no.95*

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Review of Irish Management and Team.Mod Warning Post no.95