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'Murder' - a hypothetical question!.

  • 29-05-2010 03:00PM
    #1
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,609 ✭✭✭✭


    Sorry not a juicy one like a speeding ticket, or insurance disc quiry...

    But!..

    'Frost', 'Bergerac', 'Morse' etc...

    Could one detective and an assistant solve a murder case?.

    I know its TV and far removed from real life (soldiers are asked the same Q's about soldier movies - so if you ever want to see realistic, download the first series of 'soldier soldier' or watch 'The Hurt Locker').

    So, can it be done?.

    Or, has there ever been a realistic police series (not counting those 'Road Wars' type programmes).


Comments

  • #2
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    You don't even need a dectective and his assistant.

    What about Murder She Wrote? That Jessica Flectcher sure knows how to bag them. Mind you if I saw her coming towards me, I would certainly run away.


  • #3
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    They could probably covertly determine the facts, source witnesses and compelling evidence, but the DPP has to be involved to prosecute the suspect.


  • #4
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    The_wire was pretty realistic I hear.


  • #5
    Hooch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭Hooch


    Cannon Deafening Self-help wrote: »
    Sorry not a juicy one like a speeding ticket, or insurance disc quiry...

    But!..

    'Frost', 'Bergerac', 'Morse' etc...

    Could one detective and an assistant solve a murder case?.

    I know its TV and far removed from real life (soldiers are asked the same Q's about soldier movies - so if you ever want to see realistic, download the first series of 'soldier soldier' or watch 'The Hurt Locker').

    So, can it be done?.

    Or, has there ever been a realistic police series (not counting those 'Road Wars' type programmes).

    Generally no....unless its a cut and dry case of seeing them do it!!! Murder inquiries sometimes have up to and more than 50 persons working on the case.

    As Don says The wire is pretty realistic....Third Watch was also.

    The rest are generally good tv....but thats it. Nowhere near the real thing.


  • #6
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    Deadwood could solve a murder on his own :D


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  • #7
    ivabiggon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 340 ✭✭ivabiggon


    columbo will always be the best......:cool:


  • #8
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    Several of the busier police forces in the US do use pairs of detectives to investigate murders.


  • #9
    deadwood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    delancey42 wrote: »
    Deadwood could solve a murder on his own :D

    Colonel mustard, in the library using a candlestck.


  • #10
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,903 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Ye really haven't a clue....there is only one true crime solver and that is Frank Drebin of Police Squad.


  • #11
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,813 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    Ye really haven't a clue....there is only one true crime solver and that is Frank Drebin of Police Squad.

    He does. He got it for Christmas.

    clue-pcgame.jpg


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,266 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In 1992, a Garda Traffic Corps Unit were sent to prison by the DPP for a cime they didn't commit.
    These men promptly walked away from a poorly executed Garda stockade to the Dublin Underground.
    Today, still wanted by an incompetent Government, they survive as Social Welfare recipients.

    If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them...

    Maybe you can hire, the NGA-Team.


    I'd watch it!


  • #13
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,755 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    cushtac wrote: »
    Several of the busier police forces in the US do use pairs of detectives to investigate murders.

    Indeed, and with this in mind I would recommend Homicide:A Year on the Killing Streets. Its written by David Simon who was behind The Wire and it follows a specific shift of homicide detectives from the Baltimore PD for a year. When a murder came in, whoever was up for next lead detective got teh shout along with another detective working with them. Some cases were solved nearly as soon as they happened, others took a lot of luck and hard work while others remained unsolved to this day.

    Obviously its a different society than merry old Ireland, but its an amazing incite into how a murder can be solved and sometimes come so agonisingly close to being cracked.


  • #14
    deadwood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    Taggart-Death-Call-Set.jpg
    Practice saying; "There's been a murrdherrrrr".


  • #15
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Cannon Deafening Self-help wrote: »
    Could one detective and an assistant solve a murder case?.

    I know its TV and far removed from real life (soldiers are asked the same Q's about soldier movies - so if you ever want to see realistic, download the first series of 'soldier soldier' or watch 'The Hurt Locker').

    So, can it be done?.

    No reason in theory, but in reality most crimes are detected in Ireland by arresting someone and asking them questions until they confess. This process can be done by a minimum of 3 gardai for a simple crime, but for a big murder case you would need several members in charge, an exhibits officer, forensic scientists, pathologist, a bunch of gardai to do the interviews and a number of superintendents/chief supers need to be woken up out of bed to authorise longer detention.

    So to come to a "whodunnit" conclusion, one person could do that. But to come to a convincing conclusion that might actually go to trial you need a lot of gardai, and for a bloody murder, maybe 30 gardai plus lots of other witnesses.


  • #16
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    This process can be done by a minimum of 3 gardai for a simple crime.

    You only need one to investigate, two if you're interviewing.


  • #17
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    cushtac wrote: »
    You only need one to investigate, two if you're interviewing.

    Three for interviewing, unless your MiC is called Garda P. Hantom.


  • #18
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Three for interviewing, unless your MiC is called Garda P. Hantom.

    The member in charge has nothing to do with the investigation, he merely facilitates the interview.


  • #19
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    cushtac wrote: »
    The member in charge has nothing to do with the investigation, he merely facilitates the interview.

    You need a member in charge to conduct an interview. Well technically you don't but if you want it to stand up in court, my point remains that the minimum amount needed is 3 gardai.


  • #20
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    You need a member in charge to conduct an interview. Well technically you don't but if you want it to stand up in court, my point remains that the minimum amount needed is 3 gardai.

    The member in charge is not involved in the investigation though, which was my point. You might need a minimum of three to conduct and interview, but only two do any investigative work.

    In cases where you don't interview someone you don't even need a second member.


  • #21
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,609 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Jeeze lads, I didn't mean to cause murder in the thread :p


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  • #22
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    cushtac wrote: »
    The member in charge is not involved in the investigation though, which was my point. You might need a minimum of three to conduct and interview, but only two do any investigative work.

    In cases where you don't interview someone you don't even need a second member.

    Which is why I don't understand why you're trying to disagree with me. There is no reason in theory why 1 garda can't detect a murder on his tod, but if he wants something to go to court on there must be at least 3 gardai. A murder prosecution could only function with one garda if that garda witnessed the murder, and even then it would be ropey as it would be unlikely that there is evidence of intent.


  • #23
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    I had always thought that ' Member In Charge ' referred to a Garda Superintendent but I get the impression here that in fact it can be a Garda of any rank ?


  • #24
    Hooch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭Hooch


    delancey42 wrote: »
    I had always thought that ' Member In Charge ' referred to a Garda Superintendent but I get the impression here that in fact it can be a Garda of any rank ?

    Member in Charge is the Garda (A Garda in the sticks and a Sergeant in cities) who is in charge of a station in accordance with the Criminal Justice (treatment of persons in custody regulations 1987) Act 1984. He calles the shots in regards the prisoner and his detention.


  • #25
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Which is why I don't understand why you're trying to disagree with me. There is no reason in theory why 1 garda can't detect a murder on his tod, but if he wants something to go to court on there must be at least 3 gardai. A murder prosecution could only function with one garda if that garda witnessed the murder, and even then it would be ropey as it would be unlikely that there is evidence of intent.

    I'm disagreeing because the member in charge does not investigate; he does not gather evidence, take statements, question suspects, arrest people or do any of the other work required. He is involved in the case because he has to authorise detention & facilitate the interview, but he's had no input into the actual investigation of the crime.

    When I said one person I was referring to the simple crime you had previously mentioned, not murder.


  • #26
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    cushtac wrote: »
    I'm disagreeing because the member in charge does not investigate; he does not gather evidence, take statements, question suspects, arrest people or do any of the other work required. He is involved in the case because he has to authorise detention & facilitate the interview, but he's had no input into the actual investigation of the crime.

    Look, it's perfectly simple. Just because the member in charge doesn't gather evidence, take statements or arrest people, doesn't mean that they are not vital to the prosecution. Without them, the statement would be inadmissible. So, although it is not as flash a job as some of the others, it is just as important.

    Which is why, the bare minimum gardai needed to bring a prosecution (other than one based on direct oral evidence) is 3. You cannot bring a prosecution with less and hope to succeed. If you don't have the member in charge, you don't have a valid statement. It doesn't get more simple than that.


  • #27
    cushtac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭cushtac


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Look, it's perfectly simple. Just because the member in charge doesn't gather evidence, take statements or arrest people, doesn't mean that they are not vital to the prosecution. Without them, the statement would be inadmissible. So, although it is not as flash a job as some of the others, it is just as important.

    Which is why, the bare minimum gardai needed to bring a prosecution (other than one based on direct oral evidence) is 3. You cannot bring a prosecution with less and hope to succeed. If you don't have the member in charge, you don't have a valid statement. It doesn't get more simple than that.

    It is indeed simple, you are talking about prosecution and I am talking about investigation. The two are separate processes and I never once talked about prosecution.


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