Thought experiment for the Roman Catholic

Hi Antiskeptic,

and pml..:)

Seriously though, I guess the answer to that would be more or less impossible because it involves 'time travel'...[ Which is only theoretic ] I don't know, no more than you do..You did admit that even from a 'osas' position that someone could 'reject' God and find out they aren't saved....

Anyway, I'll co-operate for the sake of it in the 'thought' experiment...and for the fun of it.

If I knew I were going to 'hell' than most probably I understand the reason why I was there when I got there....obviously my faith wasn't true..and I was actually rejecting God and perhaps maybe turning others away too..I would understand 'how' I fell short of his huge 'gift'...

...now I travel 'back' in time, and find out that my 'Grace' and my abiding in it, wasn't what I thought it was before I time travelled in the first place...

If I could 'change' my future, I believe there would be hope for me and a good reason why God allowed me to view a future destination...

Remember, Catholics believe in 'freewill' and that we live in 'linear time'....this is totally necessary to give this thought experiment any proper credence from our perspective.

If I am the type of person that never really loved God in the first place, and all of a sudden saw first hand the path I was heading down - Then, I would probably, after ****ting a brick, spend the rest of my life trying to change his mind and make peace....God is pure 'goodness' and 'love' there is nothing 'not' to love, unless we have no love in us in the first place. I would understand the true nature of God, and would want to try to set myself right once he 'sent' me back...I would mend my hateful ways and embrace goodness which I think is deeply inherent in our nature if we let it bloom..

There is nothing 'not' to love about pure goodness, love, mercy, justice.....These are, from a Catholic viewpoint, aspects of God.

Damned to hell you say? Fate is a mighty thing, were I damned to hell without chance to save my soul (if indeed one remains) and assurance that my eternity (if it should occur) were to spent in sufferring, then I would simply live my life to its full potential (whatever that may be) enjoy myself and revel in the many sucesses and failures I will no doubt achieve.
Were I damned to hell, the question of god becomes irrelavent. Hell (depending on your view of it) may very well be the one place in this universe (assuming that only one exists and that god does indeed have control of it) that god does not control.

If you are in all certainty damned to hell, god is no longer relevant and what you do with your finite amount of time until your journey into the inevetable eternal abyss is entirely up to you.

dvae wrote: »

I don't thing anybody could answer such a question with any conviction unless they new for sure that they were not going to inherit gods kingdom.
Some people think that all sin can be forgiven but this is not true.
To sin against Gods holy spirit is an unforgivable sin.
Point being the question is not as far fetched as one may think, i myself could probably point out a couple of people who will indeed not inherit Gods kingdom purely because of sinning against Gods holy spirit but, i wont because, nobody on earth has the right to judge or tell anybody who is or who is not going to hell.
Thats Gods job.

In another thread, someone posted this:

Sr Faustinas Diary:

I am Thrice Holy, and I detest the smallest sin. I cannot love a soul which is stained with sin; but when it repents, there is no limit to My generosity toward it. My mercy embraces and justifies it

If there are unforgivable sins then there is clearly a limit. Does this mean what is written above is incorrect?

dvae wrote: »

Mark 3:28-29 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Just for clarity, it is not sin against the Holy Spirit that is unforgiveable, as every sin is against God and therefore against the Holy Spirit. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This requires a full assesment of what the Holy Spirit does, and being convinced of the opposite, attribute it publicly to works of the devil.

One could surmise that the AntiChrist or Beast of Revelation would be one such person the OP describes and therein lies one answer.

Alternatively one could take the film version of "Constantine" as a ficticious example.

We are a curious bunch and for that we have apologetics.

Q. 2. More specifically, what sins offend the Holy Spirit?
A. There are six sins that offend the Holy Spirit. These are:

(1) Despair,

"By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy." (C.C.C. # 2091)

(2) Presumption of God's mercy,
"There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit)." (C.C.C. # 2092)

(3) Impugning the known truth,
(Clarification: To "impugn" the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.)

(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
(Clarification: Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians states, "All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually as the Spirit chooses." To envy the spiritual good of another is to question the Divine judgment of the Holy Spirit in His distribution of spiritual gifts. It is to be jealous of another person who has a gift different than one's own gift. Through envy, one rejects the gift that he has received from the Holy Spirit, determining in his own mind that the gift he has received is not good enough for him and he wants someone else's gift.)

(5) Obstinacy in sin,
(Clarification: To be "obstinate" means to resist the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, to be stubborn, to persist in sin, to be unyielding.)

(6) Final impenitence.
(Clarification: "Impenitence" means to be uncontrite, unrepentant, hardened, unconverted, to be without regret, shame or remorse.)

source

Morbert wrote: »

What about after they commit the "unforgivable sin"? What if they seek repentance then?

Those who commit this particular sin are incapable of seeking repentence.
If they were to seek repentence then the sin was not an unforgivable one in the first place .

In the simplest terms - it is against the Holy Spirit so once committed He departs you and faith is lost. Grace is a gift from the Holy Spirit without which we can have no faith and we cannot be saved.
If you sin against Him you no longer have grace or the possibility of grace.

if you are worried about it you haven't' committed it.

There's more here

antiskeptic wrote: »

As a Roman Catholic you can't be sure that you will finally be saved. Which means the potential exists that you be damned to Hell. If somehow you came to know now that you were indeed to be consigned to Hell, would you still strive to love and obey God? If so, why so? If not, why not?

Thanks.

Hi antiskeptic. As a Roman Catholic (not my choice ) or indeed as a human being I believe that a person must have something to believe in regardless of whether that belief will take him/her to an eternal reward, a final damnation or a plot of soil. I`m old enough (Mid life) to realise that my religion has probably been refitted resized and rebooted throughout history to suit the present off the rail model that it is. Still, I believe there is a God, and I believe that my God and the other religions Gods are one and the same God.