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Why oh why..the angelus?

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Comments

  • #122
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,562 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    20goto10 wrote: »
    Unfortunately your interpretation of its function is wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. It's intended as a call to prayer. You're supposed to take out your rosary beads and say a couple of hail marys. Now why should I have to listen to church bells and dodgy actors with gormless looks on their faces pausing for prayer (or just pausing to look at the sky as the revamped version may suggest)?

    It's also a matter of where its placed. It's purposely put on before the 6 O' Clock news to hit the biggest audience. Like I say, a call to prayer at the hight of the day. If its so harmless why not stick it on at a different time and people can choose to watch it rather than being forced to jump back and forth from one channel to another until its over in order to catch the headlines . Its a nusance, an insult to intelligence and it has no place in 21st century society.

    I have the right to catch the news and in particualr the Irish headlines without having religious tripe shoved down my throat.

    Presumably you live and have grown up in Ireland? So how could you possibly imagine that the Angelus is on at 6pm (and 12 noon) because thats when they get the highest audience? There is 700 years of history to the bell being rung at those times. There used to be a morning one too, but we seem to have lost that one.

    I am neither Irish nor Catholic, but I am mildly interested in whats going on aroubd me.


  • #123
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    looksee wrote: »
    Presumably you live and have grown up in Ireland? So how could you possibly imagine that the Angelus is on at 6pm (and 12 noon) because thats when they get the highest audience? There is 700 years of history to the bell being rung at those times. There used to be a morning one too, but we seem to have lost that one.

    I am neither Irish nor Catholic, but I am mildly interested in whats going on aroubd me.
    Yes fair enough its traditionally noon and 6pm. Which again backs up my argument that this is clearly a religious ritual which has no place on our state channel.


  • #124
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    20goto10 wrote: »
    That's exactly the problem. Our state broadcaster is catering for the catholic church.

    I think RTE is catering for Catholics and other people who may wish to pause for a minute's reflection. You seem to be proposing that RTE is pandering to the bishops and other members of the hierarchy of the church. I disagree and think that RTE is catering for a significant (albeit diminishing) group of people who actively use the allotted time to pause for prayer. I am quite happy for our state broadcaster to cater for these people, and for those who wish to keep it for the other reasons mentioned (but dismissed by Wicknight et al) on this thread.


  • #125
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Well, that certainly is debatable. I note that you have expanded your list to now include educate.

    Fanny you are playing games. You said the RTE mandate includes more than what I said. Great I'm happy to accept that since the mandate is hundreds of words and I was trying to paraphrase into a sentence or two. Obviously there is going to be details I missed. But the issue is does it include a programme like the angelus which are basically non-programs, scheduled breaks in programming because you are supposed to be doing something else.

    The Angelus as far as I can see doesn't fit any of the current mandate that RTE have.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I don't agree that RTE only deals in the three areas you have suggested. But if you want an answer, I would imagine that RTE is providing coverage of religious activities.

    The angelus isn't coverage of religious activities.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    "RTÉ will continue to broadcast religious services on both radio and television and will also provide programming dealing with religious and spiritual topics on a regular basis."

    The Angelus is neither a broadcast of a religious service nor is it a programme dealing with religious topics.

    Both these things fall under educate and inform. The Angelus doesn't.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I'm not following you.

    The angelus is a scheduled break in broadcasting because you are not supposed to be watching TV at that time, you are supposed to be saying a devotion. It is a bump for the six o'clock news so it starts one minute passed six because you are not supposed to be watching TV at six.

    There is nothing as far as I can see in the RTE mandate that says RTE will decide when Irish people are or are not to be watching TV based on ideological or religious reasons.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    RCC isn't a religion, it's a denomination. Aside from that, the State does give precedence to Christianity (as I've already pointed out by quoting the opening lines of the constitution) and it also recognises the importance of religion in general.

    The opening lines of the constitution are known as the "preamble" and are not law. They have been there since the first version of the constitution when the Catholic church was given legal recognition.

    Since 1972 Article 44 of the constitution says that the State will not endow any religion.

    And I'm not arguing about not recognizing the importance of religion. The issue is RTE placing a particular religious denomination's practice in a place of privilege in its scheduling.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    How can you categorically say that RTE - like it is a single-minded entity - has no desire to work against its mandate. That would really only be true if RTE set the mandate itself. Anyway, aren't you are contending that they are in breach by showing the Angelus. Or is that all down to political pressure?

    I say that because I know people who work in RTE and I follow the comings and goings of the organization.It is possible individuals in RTE don't like the mandate but when I say RTE I mean those in charge such as the Executive Board.

    But this is also all some what of irrelevant rabbit holing. My statements assume RTE is following its mandate. If you think they don't want to fine, but don't misunderstand what I'm saying.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Discussions! Sounds official.

    About as official as a game of pool can be.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Again, though you wish to reduce the role of RTE into the areas of entertainment, education and information, I don't agree that it is that easy. To be honest, I prefer RTE's own words on the matter.

    Again can you show me where the angelus fits RTE's current mandate given that it is not covering a religious service nor providing details or information on a religious practice.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    The Angelus isn't telling people how great RCism is.

    That wasn't really my point. You asked if I would object RTE encouraging theists to reflect on their lives. That is an ideological agenda, as would encouraging people to reflect on how great capitalism is, or reflect on the emptiness of materialism. It is up to the theists when and what they want to reflect on.

    In a secular society religion is a private matter, not something regulated by the State. RTE should not be encouraging people to do anything based on ideology, religious or otherwise. That is not its role.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Rather, it is providing a service for people already convinced of the truth as detailed by the RC church.

    How are you defining "service" in this context? RTE in all practical sense stops broadcasting during the angelus. Do you consider that a service of RTE?
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    That I happen to disagree with a great deal of these teaching doesn't mean I automatically take the hump when those bells start ringing.

    Whether you "take the hump" is some what irrelevant. Something does not have to be simply annoying to be removed.

    I would imagine few found A prayer at bed time annoying but RTE still replaced it with a more inclusive, and educational, set of programs that closer fit its current mandate.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Well, it might well be. And this, I feel, is your strongest argument. But I wonder what the definition of bias is? From my quick read of their standards, one could look at the Angelus as bias or you could look at it as a programme that reflects the Catholic values of the majority of the populace (86.8%), which is part of RTE's role as providing public service broadcasting.

    The Angelus is a RCC practice and RTE are not supposed to be giving privilege to one specific religious group, even if they are in the majority, nor does it fit their mandate to regulate through scheduling private religious practices.


  • #126
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    20goto10 wrote: »
    That's exactly the problem. Our state broadcaster is catering for the catholic church.

    Well one could argue not just for Catholics but for believers in general but
    So what?
    So what if the State Broadcaster caters for religious believers?
    There should be separation of state and church.

    There is! churches do not make the laws or have the binding authority to tell judges police or the Army what to do.
    People arguing that this would be catering to atheists are just showing their ignorance. Atheism is not an organisation or social group.

    So what? Claiming that the state can not cater for anarchists or can only cater for orginisations is fallacious.
    It is simply a lack of belief in religion. Catholics are still free to have religious programmes but I would suggest they get their own channel for it and that RTE should stop broadcasting Catholic tripe and leave us in peace to watch the news.

    I think it might be an inordinate waste of money to set up another religion only state channel but it might be looked into. But I don't see why everyone else should have to suit the one per cent of atheists who want the news on a minute earlier.
    I also think they need to drop the religious aspect of their journalism. Stuff like interviewing church goers and preists as if it has any relevance to the subject.

    So you won't be posting on clerical child abuse any more then? Ah you must hark back to the good old days of RTE when godless marxists were in charge of things eh? How fair it was then with Section 31 and all that eh?
    btw, I know many catholics who hate the angelus and in fact who hate the Catholic church. But they still call themselves Catholic and believe in God. Your 86.8% figure is not an accurate reflection of our demographics.

    I agree I would put the angelus people in the 90 plus per cent bracket and the fundamentalist atheist in the 1 or 2 percent bracket. That is based on the Irish census and international surveys of non believers agnostics and hardline atheists.


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  • #127
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    20goto10 wrote: »
    Yes fair enough its traditionally noon and 6pm. Which again backs up my argument that this is clearly a religious ritual which has no place on our state channel.

    Why? Why does religion have no place on a state channel? why should sports or arts or economics or science have a place and religion not have a place?


  • #128
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    ISAW wrote: »
    So what if the State Broadcaster caters for religious believers?

    The State broadcasters role is not to regulate ideological or religious practice.


  • #129
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    ISAW wrote: »
    Why? Why does religion have no place on a state channel? why should sports or arts or economics or science have a place and religion not have a place?
    Because its bad enough that they control the schools that they have their grubby little fingers reaching into my own private living room. Yes I can chagnge the channel, but why should I? I want to watch the news and I don't want an unelected, perverted, corrupt and evil (yes EVIL) dictatorship invading my privacy with their lies, ignorance and intellectual pollution.

    Comparing religion with sports, economics and science? Are you for real?


  • #130
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The State broadcasters role is not to regulate ideological or religious practice.

    But it is only you and a small minority who interpret the broadcast of the Angelus Bells as "regulating religious pratice". The rest of us (and crucially, this includes RTÉ because otherwise they wouldn't broadcast it) see it as fitting under RTÉ's religious programming guidelines such as :
    The important place religion holds in the life of the community will be celebrated and acknowledged.

    or
    RTÉ in its output will reflect the faiths traditionally found in Ireland.

    RTÉ regularly broadcasts Mass on a Sunday morning, which by your criteria neither informs, educates nor entertains, but it still gets aired. This is because it is consistent with their stated objectives as outlined in the guidelines.


  • #131
    20goto10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    ISAW wrote: »
    There is! churches do not make the laws or have the binding authority to tell judges police or the Army what to do.
    The church has a massive influence on the running of the country. People have to get their children baptised in order to get into 92% of the schools. And evidently their control also stretches to our state television.

    ISAW wrote: »
    I think it might be an inordinate waste of money to set up another religion only state channel but it might be looked into. But I don't see why everyone else should have to suit the one per cent of atheists who want the news on a minute earlier.
    LOL. No clearly I didn't mean a state owned channel. I meant go get your own channel and do what you like with it.
    ISAW wrote: »
    So you won't be posting on clerical child abuse any more then? Ah you must hark back to the good old days of RTE when godless marxists were in charge of things eh? How fair it was then with Section 31 and all that eh?
    I don't really know what you are talking about here nor do I have any desire to google it. As for clerical abuse, that is not what I meant when I was referring to RTE's religious journalism. that is considered news, important news. What is not important is interviewing church goers and a priest when reporting on the Donegal road accident for example.


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  • #132
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    But it is only you and a small minority who interpret the broadcast of the Angelus Bells as "regulating religious pratice".

    Ok, what do you think the angelus is, like what is the actual broadcast?
    MazG wrote: »
    The rest of us (and crucially, this includes RTÉ because otherwise they wouldn't broadcast it) see it as fitting under RTÉ's religious programming guidelines such as :

    Both those things are the mission of RTE, rather than the type of programming it is supposed to make.

    So again how do you define the angelus within this context?

    I mean I assume you agree that while RTE has this as part of its mission it is still within the context of the mandate. RTE isn't supposed to be building churches or setting up religious schools for example.
    MazG wrote: »
    RTÉ regularly broadcasts Mass on a Sunday morning, which by your criteria neither informs, educates nor entertains, but it still gets aired.

    I'm not sure what are you talking about here?

    Mass falls perfectly into inform educate or entertain (the first 2 bits, though I'm sure some find mass also entertaining). It is coverage of a religious service, which fits RTE's current guileless perfectly.

    Can you explain how the angelus also fits this?


  • #133
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Ok, what do you think the angelus is, like what is the actual broadcast?



    Both those things are the mission of RTE, rather than the type of programming it is supposed to make.

    So again how do you define the angelus within this context?

    I've already stated that I think the broadcast of the Angelus fits in with RTÉ's religious programming guidelines in that it reflects the faiths traditionally found in Ireland and that is celebrates and acknowledges the important place that religion holds in the life of the community.

    You disagree, but as I've said before, that's not surprising. Why do you continue to seek a reason that will convince you that the Angelus should be kept? You clearly feel strongly that it should not be broadcast and you've outlined your reasons why. I acknowledge and respect those feelings, but I don't agree with your viewpoint and I don't expect you convince me otherwise.


  • #134
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,662 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    20goto10 wrote: »
    That's exactly the problem. Our state broadcaster is catering for the catholic church. There should be separation of state and church. People arguing that this would be catering to atheists are just showing their ignorance. Atheism is not an organisation or social group.

    *cough cough* http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614 :rolleyes:
    wrote:
    It is simply a lack of belief in religion. Catholics are still free to have religious programmes but I would suggest they get their own channel for it and that RTE should stop broadcasting Catholic tripe and leave us in peace to watch the news.

    Your argument applies to any time of programming the viewer dislikes. It also applies to manipulative advertising targeted at kids. Is getting rid of the Angelus a more serious issue?
    wrote:
    I also think they need to drop the religious aspect of their journalism. Stuff like interviewing church goers and preists as if it has any relevance to the subject.

    You dont watch the news much. Its not very often when the journalists interview the local priest. But they always interview local people. Ive havent been to that part of donegal but its possibly an area where everyone knows everyone and the priest is a relevent figure of authority no different than a local TD or mayor.
    wrote:
    btw, I know many catholics who hate the angelus and in fact who hate the Catholic church. But they still call themselves Catholic and believe in God. Your 86.8% figure is not an accurate reflection of our demographics.

    Er, this point makes no sense whatsoever.


  • #135
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,662 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    20goto10 wrote: »
    The church has a massive influence on the running of the country. People have to get their children baptised in order to get into 92% of the schools. And evidently their control also stretches to our state television.



    LOL. No clearly I didn't mean a state owned channel. I meant go get your own channel and do what you like with it.


    I don't really know what you are talking about here nor do I have any desire to google it. As for clerical abuse, that is not what I meant when I was referring to RTE's religious journalism. that is considered news, important news. What is not important is interviewing church goers and a priest when reporting on the Donegal road accident for example.

    ANother poster with a blinkered personal vendeta. What is it with all the ignorant, intolerant posts in this thread?


  • #136
    socio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭socio


    faceman wrote: »
    You dont watch the news much. Its not very often when the journalists interview the local priest. But they always interview local people. Ive havent been to that part of donegal but its possibly an area where everyone knows everyone and the priest is a relevent figure of authority no different than a local TD or mayor.

    A figure of authority like a TD or a mayor??! You've got to be kidding me, TD's are democratically elected representatives. Priests are members of a specific organisation who have a particular view on life and wear particular uniforms. The point being made is that RTE are looking to the priest to speak for the community when they should be asking the local councillor or TD instead.


  • #137
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    I've already stated that I think the broadcast of the Angelus fits in with RTÉ's religious programming guidelines in that it reflects the faiths traditionally found in Ireland and that is celebrates and acknowledges the important place that religion holds in the life of the community.

    That isn't actually what I asked you, I asked you what the angelus actually is in the context of RTE's mandate.

    Is the covering of a religious service? Is it an educational documentary? Is it an opinion piece? Is it an entertainment program. What?

    Given that we agree (I hope) that RTE doesn't have carte blanc to celebrate the place of religion in science by say putting on a festival or building a church, the context of the mandate is important when looking at the mission statement.

    As far as I can see it is none of the things RTE is supposed to be producing and as such is as irrelevant to RTE's current mandate as RTE building a church is.
    MazG wrote: »
    Why do you continue to seek a reason that will convince you that the Angelus should be kept?

    I'm open to being convinced that the Angelus does fall within RTE guidelines and mandate, but so far no one is doing a particularly good job coming up with an explanation of how it does.
    MazG wrote: »
    and I don't expect you convince me otherwise.

    Well if you have closed your mind then debating me would seem some what pointless wouldn't it?


  • #138
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    I'm open to being convinced that the Angelus does fall within RTE guidelines and mandate, but so far no one is doing a particularly good job coming up with an explanation of how it does.


    But I don't believe you are open to being convinced. Three times already I've stated the view that the Angelus falls within RTÉ's guidelines because it is a reflection of the faiths traditionally found in Ireland. And twice I've stated that it falls within RTÉ guidelines because it celebrates and acknowledges the importance of religion in many people's lives. Just because my reasoning doesn't fit with your interpretation of the guidelines you say that no one has explained how the Angelus fits with these. We have explained. You just don't agree.

    Well if you have closed your mind then debating me would seem some what pointless wouldn't it?

    Well that's not quite what I meant. Apologies if I didn't articulate it very well, but what I was trying to say was that I don't go around demanding people convince me to agree with them. By all means let us have a debate, but you have ignored the many reasons that people have put forward for keeping the Angelus and now seem to be clinging desperately to the notion that it's against RTÉ's guidelines and mandate even though I and others and RTÉ have come to the conclusion that it is not.


  • #139
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,662 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    socio wrote: »
    A figure of authority like a TD or a mayor??! You've got to be kidding me, TD's are democratically elected representatives. Priests are members of a specific organisation who have a particular view on life and wear particular uniforms. The point being made is that RTE are looking to the priest to speak for the community when they should be asking the local councillor or TD instead.

    Sounds like RTE should interview you, you seem to know it all!

    Id rather a priest, or anyone of a spiritual background, represent the community in an interview than a TD.


  • #140
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    faceman wrote: »
    Sounds like RTE should interview you, you seem to know it all!

    Id rather a priest, or anyone of a spiritual background, represent the community in an interview than a TD.
    Ok. Take my area as an example. I live in a typical rural area. A priest could not assume to talk for my house hold or the neighbours either side of me. Infact the nearest house which would be typical irish catholic with a church involvement is about a mile away. I dont think a single house in the larger area, save the one mentioned, would know who the local priest is.


  • #141
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    But I don't believe you are open to being convinced.

    As is your prerogative.
    MazG wrote: »
    Three times already I've stated the view that the Angelus falls within RTÉ's guidelines because it is a reflection of the faiths traditionally found in Ireland.
    And I've asked you to clarify that with relation to what the Angelus actually is and is it something RTE should be producing as part of their mandate.

    A whole host of things, churches for example or pamphlets on why abortion is wrong, reflect the faiths traditionally found in Ireland but you would not expect RTE to produce.

    The mere fact that the angelus is a religious tradition is not enough to justify RTE producing a special 1 minute "non-broadcast" for it.

    You also need to explain how the broadcast itself fits within the scope of what RTE is supposed to be producing.
    MazG wrote: »
    And twice I've stated that it falls within RTÉ guidelines because it celebrates and acknowledges the importance of religion in many people's lives.

    And again I've explained that RTE does not have mandate that gives it carte blanche to celebrate religion in any shape or form. RTE can't go out and start erecting religious statues.

    You are, perhaps on purpose perhaps not, misrepresenting the RTE document. The bits you are quoting are editorial principles. They apply to the programs produced within the context of the mandate.

    You have yet to explain how the angelus falls inside the mandate.

    If RTE were knocking down Montrose and building a massive church there that wouldn't be justified by saying RTE has a mandate to celebrate religion. RTE is not hear to celebrate religion, RTE is here to celebrate religion within the wider context of producing entertainment or educational programming. They have mandate to celebrate religion within the context of their wider mandate.

    The Angelus is not a broadcast of a religious event, it is not an educational program about a religious practice. it is not an entertainment program about religion and it is not informational service about religious services available to the public.

    So what is it, and how does what it is fit within the context of what RTE is supposed to be producing given that I hope we agree RTE is not supposed to be producing anything and everything that has religious significance.

    That is my question.
    MazG wrote: »
    Just because my reasoning doesn't fit with your interpretation of the guidelines you say that no one has explained how the Angelus fits with these. We have explained. You just don't agree.

    Do you agree that RTE does not have carte blanche to produce anything simply because it celebrates religion?

    If so then saying the angelus is ok because it celebrates religion (debatable in of itself but for argument sake lets just go with it) is not enough to answer the question I put towards you.


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  • #142
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,662 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Ok. Take my area as an example. I live in a typical rural area. A priest could not assume to talk for my house hold or the neighbours either side of me. Infact the nearest house which would be typical irish catholic with a church involvement is about a mile away. I dont think a single house in the larger area, save the one mentioned, would know who the local priest is.

    Could a local TD talk for you instead?


  • #143
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    The mere fact that the angelus is a religious tradition is not enough to justify RTE producing a special 1 minute "non-broadcast" for it.

    In your opinion.

    And again I've explained that RTE does not have mandate that gives it carte blanche to celebrate religion in any shape or form. RTE can't go out and start erecting religious statues.

    You are, perhaps on purpose perhaps not, misrepresenting the RTE document. The bits you are quoting are editorial principles. They apply to the programs produced within the context of the mandate.

    You have yet to explain how the angelus falls inside the mandate.

    Because no explanation will satisfy you as you are strongly opposed to the Angelus being broadcast.
    If RTE were knocking down Montrose and building a massive church there that wouldn't be justified by saying RTE has a mandate to celebrate religion. RTE is not hear to celebrate religion, RTE is here to celebrate religion within the wider context of producing entertainment or educational programming. They have mandate to celebrate religion within the context of their wider mandate.

    The Angelus is not a broadcast of a religious event, it is not an educational program about a religious practice. it is not an entertainment program about religion and it is not informational service about religious services available to the public.

    So what is it, and how does what it is fit within the context of what RTE is supposed to be producing given that I hope we agree RTE is not supposed to be producing anything and everything that has religious significance.

    That is my question.

    It is a call to prayer or a minute's reflection which caters for many (although of course not all) of their viewers wishes.

    Do you agree that RTE does not have carte blanche to produce anything simply because it celebrates religion?

    If so then saying the angelus is ok because it celebrates religion (debatable in of itself but for argument sake lets just go with it) is not enough to answer the question I put towards you.

    RTÉ can produce religious programming once it is in line with their own guidelines. I believe that it is within their guidelines.


  • #144
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    It is a call to prayer or a minute's reflection which caters for many (although of course not all) of their viewers wishes.

    Ah now we are getting some where. I agree entirely with you, it is a call to prayer (wasn't so hard was it :))

    The problem is that a call to prayer is not as far as I can see part of RTE's mandate.

    Far from it in fact. Aside from not falling into RTE's mandate for production of broadcasts it could also be strongly argued that such a broadcast breaks the non-religious bias clause of the mandate since RTE don't, I'm sure you agree, provide call to prayer for all other religions in Ireland.
    MazG wrote: »
    RTÉ can produce religious programming once it is in line with their own guidelines. I believe that it is within their guidelines.

    I disagree with you, but at least we have clarified what we are talking about.

    I do not believe a call to prayer service is within RTE's mandate and I can find nothing in the mandate to suggest it is. Perhaps you can point out where a call to prayer or something like that is listed as the types of broadcasts RTE should produce.

    The mandate for what RTE is actually for is provided in the Broadcasting Act and I can see nothing that goes close to providing anything like a call to prayer.


  • #145
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    It is a call to prayer or a minute's reflection which caters for many (although of course not all) of their viewers wishes.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Ah now we are getting some where. I agree entirely with you, it is a call to prayer (wasn't so hard was it :))

    Not that I give a monkeys whether the Angelus is sounded or not but...

    Could you deal with the other bit of the statement also?


  • #146
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    Ah now we are getting some where. I agree entirely with you, it is a call to prayer (wasn't so hard was it :))

    The problem is that a call to prayer is not as far as I can see part of RTE's mandate.

    Far from it in fact. Aside from not falling into RTE's mandate for production of broadcasts it could also be strongly argued that such a broadcast breaks the non-religious bias clause of the mandate since RTE don't, I'm sure you agree, provide call to prayer for all other religions in Ireland.

    RTÉ don't provide a call to prayer for all other religions because the country is made up of people who for the most part identify themselves as Catholic. You see this as a bias towards Catholicism, I see this as an acknowledgement of the religious preferences of their viewing public.

    In actual fact, if (when?)the demographic of our country were to change to mostly athiest, I would concede that the Angelus could be taken off the air. But despite what you may wish to believe, we're not there yet.

    Is this the non-religious clause of which you speak?

    (4) A broadcaster shall not broadcast an advertisement which
    addresses the issue of the merits or otherwise of adhering to any
    religious faith or belief or of becoming a member of any religion or
    religious organisation.

    If so, I can't see how the Angelus is in contravention of it. It does not address the merits or otherwise of adhering to Catholicism nor of becoming a Catholic.

    I do not believe a call to prayer service is within RTE's mandate and I can find nothing in the mandate to suggest it is. Perhaps you can point out where a call to prayer or something like that is listed as the types of broadcasts RTE should produce.

    The mandate for what RTE is actually for is provided in the Broadcasting Act and I can see nothing that goes close to providing anything like a call to prayer.

    Well that might be because it doesn't specifally mention the Angelus or any other call to prayer. In the same way that it doesn't specifcally mention Bosco.

    So you want me to pour through the 181 page document to find where the Angelus fits in. Well, my guess would be either Section 25-(1) (a)
    1) The Authority and the statutory committees, in performing
    their functions, shall endeavour to ensure—
    (a) that the number and categories of broadcasting services
    made available in the State by virtue of this Act best
    serve the needs of the people of the island of Ireland,
    bearing in mind their languages and traditions and their
    religious, ethical and cultural diversity


    or perhaps Section 114-3 (a)
    114 - Principal Objects and associated powers of RTÉ
    (3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), RTE´
    shall ensure that the programme schedules of the broadcasting
    services referred to in that subsection—
    (a) provide a comprehensive range of programmes in the Irish
    and English languages that reflect the cultural diversity
    of the whole island of Ireland and include programmes
    that entertain, inform and educate, provide coverage of
    sporting, religious and cultural activities and cater for the
    expectations of the community generally as well as
    members of the community with special or minority
    interests and which, in every case, respect human dignity,


    But if you think that the Angelus is in contravention of the Broadcasting Act, by all means take a case to court. I shall watch with interest.


  • #147
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    antiskeptic wrote: »


    Not that I give a monkeys whether the Angelus is sounded or not but...

    Could you deal with the other bit of the statement also?

    If it is a minutes reflection it has even less to do with RTE's mandate. Where in RTE's mandate is there a requirement to provide time for people to reflect? And why provide that at noon and 6pm?

    It is hard to see the "minutes reflection" as anything other than just a fudge by RTE to try and make the Angelus look less Catholic centric.


  • #148
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    MazG wrote: »
    RTÉ don't provide a call to prayer for all other religions because the country is made up of people who for the most part identify themselves as Catholic.

    Read the mandate. RTE is not supposed to be bias towards one particular religion or group, even if it is in the majority.
    MazG wrote: »
    You see this as a bias towards Catholicism, I see this as an acknowledgement of the religious preferences of their viewing public.

    RTE's mandate is not to cater to just the preferences of the majority.

    Would you object to programming being stopped to allow call to prayer for other Irish religions, such as the Muslim salah?
    MazG wrote: »
    In actual fact, if (when?)the demographic of our country were to change to mostly athiest, I would concede that the Angelus could be taken off the air.
    You seem to be missing the point of the RTE mandate.
    MazG wrote: »
    Is this the non-religious clause of which you speak?

    No it is the non-religious bias clause, ie RTE is not to show religious bias.

    No editorial or programming bias shall be shown in
    terms of gender, age, disability, race, sexual orientation,
    religion or membership of a minority community.

    Selecting the call to prayer of one religious denomination and scheduling that call to prayer at a privileged place in the programming is religious bias, even if we assume RTE is supposed to provide call to prayer services.

    That fact that the majority of the population are Catholic is irrelevant. It doesn't say no bias unless it is towards the majority.
    MazG wrote: »
    Well that might be because it doesn't specifally mention the Angelus or any other call to prayer. In the same way that it doesn't specifcally mention Bosco.

    Bosco is an entertainment program, it specifically mentions entertainment programs.
    MazG wrote: »
    So you want me to pour through the 181 page document to find where the Angelus fits in. Well, my guess would be either Section 25-(1) (a)

    Did you happen to read (b)?
    MazG wrote: »
    But if you think that the Angelus is in contravention of the Broadcasting Act, by all means take a case to court. I shall watch with interest.

    I doubt that


  • #149
    MazG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭MazG


    Wicknight wrote: »



    I doubt that

    And on that snotty note, I take my leave. If a debate on a boards forum on the merits (or otherwise) of RTÉ broadcasting the Angelus bells takes my interest, I can't see how you would leap to the conclusion that a court case on the same topic would not interest me.

    The Angelus is staying (for now... who knows what the future may bring) and if have nothing further to add to the debate than 'I can't see where it fits in the mandate' when I've shown you where I think it does, then really, there's no point in continuing.


  • #150
    Mylesie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    niallers1 wrote: »
    Is it not obvious?

    It's a call to prayer. Believe it or not we are a Catholic country

    If you ever go to Turkey you will hear the call to prayer even more often. About 5 times per day.

    RTE broadcast the "programme" to cater for their Catholic viewers.

    I don't like it either so I just switch station when it comes on. I don't dislike it enough to complain about it either.

    The Angelus is usually accompanied by the ringing of the Angelus bell, which is to spread good-will to everyone on Earth. Can't see any harm in that


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  • #151
    socio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭socio


    faceman wrote: »
    Sounds like RTE should interview you, you seem to know it all!

    I'm sure I don't, otherwise I wouldn't have raised the question about the angelus in the first place. :)
    Id rather a priest, or anyone of a spiritual background, represent the community in an interview than a TD.

    So you would rather someone speaking for you that you can have no involvment in electing and can't have any influence on their policies, someone who is merely obeys orders from a group of elderly men it Italy?


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