Is thermal imaging my last chance to find leak?

Kashkai · 17-07-2010 02:11PM #1

I've had 4 plumbers in this year to find and fix an underfloor leak. 2 of them said there was no leak while one said it was the shower. Strange that the floor is wet and the pressure in the central heating system keeps falling (down to zero 2 weeks ago which I filled back up to 1.5 bar last week and is now reading 0.7 bar).

My last and best hope arrived last week in the shape of plumber no.4 who had an acoustic listening device. After about an hour he could state that there was definitely a leak but couldn't say for sure where it was, although he was fairly certain it was near the radiator at the end of the house, about 25ft away from where the water had surfaced. He said the water might have travelled along the pipe inside the insulation and surfaced where the pipes took a 90 degree turn into the hotpress. He said the plumbing in the hotpress was deplorable and that he'd redo this as well. He said he'd call the next day with a price to find and fix the leak and redo the plumbing in the hotpress but i never heard from him. My phonecalls to him have gone unanswered so I'm back to square zero.

I've done some more research on the web and thermal imaging seems to be my last avenue for finding this leak, although I rang 2 companies yesterday and despite their websites stating that they can find domestic leaks, they said my leak was too small for them to find (even though they haven't even come out to the house) and that they recommend that I use a sealant in the pipework to plug the leak - this stuff was recommended
http://www.aquatech.ie/product/253/leak-sealer/repa-r-200-leak-sealer-1-litre

However I've heard that these sealants can cause more trouble than they fix???

So thats why I'm looking at thermal imaging as my last resort. Has anyone used this method, can it find small leaks and whats the ballpark price?

In the midst of a recession, you'd think I could get someone to fix this damn leak

JohnnieK · 17-07-2010 09:15PM

I actually got an email recently off a company trying to sell me there services. I will have a look and see if I can find it and pass it on to you.

Joey the lips · 18-07-2010 05:32PM

Has a plumber not poured leak sealent into the heating system. Seems like a simple possible fix when done like this

Kashkai · 19-07-2010 12:33PM

One of the previous plumbers suggested the leak sealant but I've heard a lot of stories about how these sealants cause more problems than they fix.

I rang 3 more plumbers this morning (must have gone through the entire golden pages at this point!!):

Plumber no. 1 wants to dig and dig until the leak is found - result: wooden floors and tiles ripped up with no guarantee leak will be found.

Plumber no. 2 was too busy to help but suggested I live with it, i.e. drop of 0.8 bar in a week is not much. Redoing my wooden floor every six months will get pricey I think, not to mention the smell of damp, mould etc etc.

Plumber no. 3 suggested I contact 3 companies who specialise in acoustic/thermal and gas tracing methods. So I rang all three and they are too busy/don't serve the Kildare area.

While I'm well aware that this is a difficult problem, please forgive me for ranting:

For the love of Jebus, is there anyway to get this fixed????????:mad::mad::mad:

Joey the lips · 19-07-2010 04:47PM

i had a leak on my first system which could not be found. It was a vokera boiler with an aluminium heat exchanger which means its a fine mesh exchanger which does not respond well to dirt...

We got so pee'd off trying to find the leak we used leaksealent....Guess what...leak stopped boiler fine....

robbs · 19-07-2010 06:11PM

thermal imaging should sort your problem, go to
www.energybuilders.eu

dublin based company, they do thermal imaging...

Micky Dolenz · 19-07-2010 06:21PM

http://www.aquatech.ie/product/253/l...sealer-1-litre is by far the best sealer on the market. It is very vicious unlike alot of other sealants.

The only problem i can think of is you cannot/shouldn't add inhibitor in system when it is in there. But the same goes for other sealants.

I would recommend you try this first. The only other problem you will have is how to add it to the system, since your system is sealed. Best bet is to drain down heating until under 1st floor and add into primary circuit at cylinder

seensensee · 19-07-2010 06:36PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

One of the previous plumbers suggested the leak sealant but I've heard a lot of stories about how these sealants cause more problems than they fix.

I rang 3 more plumbers this morning (must have gone through the entire golden pages at this point!!):

Plumber no. 1 wants to dig and dig until the leak is found - result: wooden floors and tiles ripped up with no guarantee leak will be found.

Plumber no. 2 was too busy to help but suggested I live with it, i.e. drop of 0.8 bar in a week is not much. Redoing my wooden floor every six months will get pricey I think, not to mention the smell of damp, mould etc etc.

Plumber no. 3 suggested I contact 3 companies who specialise in acoustic/thermal and gas tracing methods. So I rang all three and they are too busy/don't serve the Kildare area.

While I'm well aware that this is a difficult problem, please forgive me for ranting:

For the love of Jebus, is there anyway to get this fixed????????:mad::mad::mad:

Hiya Prosperous Dave, As an ex plumber I can say that I did'nt have much success using leak sealer and had to break through solid floors on a few occasions. A drop of 0.8 of a bar indicates that you are losing 1-2 pints of water over a week so there is little that thermal imaging will observe apart from the location of the pipes. Sometimes one can determine the location of the pipes by touching the concrete floor as the boiler heats up to max...
So first one must be prepared to lift a likely section of wooden flooring and do some investigating, in the event that you can locate a warm pipe run then you must be prepared to drill down and expose a section of pipe this should be done with some TLC, in fact one must take some standard precautions in advance by emptying and isolating the heating system.

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that it may be possible for you to locate the leak and then call in the plumber to fix it. Fixing it takes a couple of hours but finding it could take days if somebody is prepared to slowly chip away on a pipe run and that someone could be you...

The other option is just keep ringing around, ask for a recommendation from a plumbers suppliers.

yoshytoshy · 19-07-2010 07:54PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

http://www.aquatech.ie/product/253/l...sealer-1-litre is by far the best sealer on the market. It is very vicious unlike alot of other sealants.

The only problem i can think of is you cannot/shouldn't add inhibitor in system when it is in there. But the same goes for other sealants.

I would recommend you try this first. The only other problem you will have is how to add it to the system, since your system is sealed. Best bet is to drain down heating until under 1st floor and add into primary circuit at cylinder

Can I just add my 2cent ,I've been back to jobs where leak sealer has been used and it has caused certain boilers to start making noise (Like kettling)

The most common boiler was the Baxi system ,I think it was because of the type of heat exchanger.
Also diverter valves I've seen siezing.

I've never had to use the stuff myself ,so I can only go by the after effects as oppose to it actually fixing leaks.

Kashkai · 20-07-2010 01:34PM

My boiler is a Firebird Heatpac 150 which is located outdoors. I've checked this and can't see any sign of a leak.

A guy I had in recently used an acoustic listening device and in his opinion, there was definitely a leak but he couldn't locate it.

A lot of pipework is still exposed from work done to date in trying to find this leak so I can see where the pipe runs are.

This has been a running sore in my life now for months with €600 spent to date on plumbers who couldn't find, never mind fix the leak. I've also got the cost of a new wooden floor to take into consideration.

I'm not plumber, just a competent DIY'er and I wonder if a pressure test would show this leak up by bursting open the existing leak to a degree where it would be detectable on a thermal imager? None of the "experts" I've had in to date have suggested this. Cracking open every floor in the house isn't an option due to wife and five kids who live there, never mind the time to re-instate the flooring afterwards.

slavetothegrind · 20-07-2010 03:31PM

Just to throw out a suggestion, the other lads on here might comment.

If you drain down the system and fill it with air to a max of 2.5bar
and listen you might get lucky and hear the escaping air, ear to a glass would help amplify sound if you don't have a stethoscope.

Use fairy liquid and water to make suds and test the pipework you can see

JohnnieK · 20-07-2010 09:07PM

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Just to throw out a suggestion, the other lads on here might comment.

If you drain down the system and fill it with air to a max of 2.5bar
and listen you might get lucky and hear the escaping air, ear to a glass would help amplify sound if you don't have a stethoscope.

Use fairy liquid and water to make suds and test the pipework you can see

Bang on. Hire a compressor take a rad off and conect it and blast away

yoshytoshy · 21-07-2010 10:05PM

Just going to throw this out there ,I've never had this problem before so bear with me.

Would adding some sort of odour to your system help locating it ?
Maybe getting something really strong smelling into the system,not necessarily bad ,but something different.
If it's a slow leak and it seeps into concrete ,the smell might be still detectable.

Kashkai · 21-07-2010 10:18PM

I rang a company today who search for leaks using a gas injected into the central heating system and a sniffer probe to detect where this gas leaks out of the pipework, thus showing where the leak is. Its supposed to be so sensitive that it can detect leaks even under flooring and concrete. He told me to refill the system and see how much it drains down over the space of a few hours.

So this evening at 6pm, I turned on the heating and the pressure climbed from 0.6bar to 1.3bar in the space of 5 minutes. I turned the heating off after a half hour and left it for an hour. At 7.30pm, the pressure was down to 1 bar, at 8.30pm it was down to 0.9 bar and just now its registering 0.7bar.

Now I know that when the heating is on, the pressure will increase anyway and vice versa, it will decrease when the heating is turned off so this isn't an accurate method of detecting a pressure drop is it?

I've just noticed that the fill valve is permanently open. Should I turn this off to see what happens?

I got the impression from that guy today that if the pressure drop isn't that great, they won't be able to detect the leak as it will be too small for their sniffer probe (even though its supposed to be super sensitive). He then suggested that if that was the case, they'd recommend using sealant. They charge €450 for the first 2 hours and €100 for each hour thereafter so they're not cheap.

21-07-2010 10:56PM

If the pipe work is still accessible you could try isolating sections of the heating system till you identify the section thats playing up then renew it.

slavetothegrind · 21-07-2010 11:52PM

Deffo isolate any fill loop.
Then monitor hourly, without heat, for pressure drop.

Those guys are looking for an awful lot of wonga having intimated they may not find a small leak?

Did you chase the track of the pipes the acoustic guy suggested may be the culprit?

The crowd that did the install, are they beyond reach now even to tell you where the runs are?

What did they use for the joints elsewhere? solder, compression, acorn?

kay 9 · 22-07-2010 12:47AM

Do you see any green residue on the pipes or pipe? If so it can be either flux that was not sufficiently cleaned off after soldering or sign of your leak. It can run on moisture back the pipe too through the lagging so it's also a good sign. Found a leak this way before. Most plumbers wont want to go tearing at floors without being nearly sure where a leak is in case the leak is somewhere completely differet altogether and they cause 1000s of damage to no avail. Not good for their business or reputation. If you disconnect the cylinder and vessel and all limited pressure fixtures you could run an air pressure test to 4-4.5 bar and you will have a massive chance of hearing it unless you live in a very noisy area.;)

Kashkai · 22-07-2010 07:36AM

Many thanks for the replies guys. I wonder why the plumbers I called in to date never suggested those methods of finding the leak although I'd suspect they couldn't be ar$ed. Easier to call to someone's house for 20 minutes to change a washer on a tap than to spend a day chasing a leak somewhere I suppose.

The pressure this morning at 7am was down to 0.5bar. It was 0.7bar last night at 11pm when I turned off the autofill stopcock so thats not much of a drop in the space of 8 hours. So I guess the tracer gas/sniffer probe guys won't want to know as they'd say this is a minor leak - although major enough to saturate a floor and ruin the laminate over a period of time. Now my own solution would be to fit a compressor to the pipework and use an acoustic listening device to find the leak. However none of the pro's I've had in to date have suggested this.

Looking at the pipework in the hotpress last night, I came to the conclusion that its an unholy mess and needs to be sorted:-
-If the hot water cylinder was moved to the side, it would free up a lot of space for new shelving to air clothes.

-The pipework itself is all over the shop, bent here and there. It seems the original plumber was making up the piperuns as he went along and no thought was put into how the pipes should run.

-I noticed that there is a 3/4inch pipe going into a 1inch compression joint and a lot of filling was employed to make it fit

-Some of the pipework has green staining on it. Is this the copper patinating like it does in the open air when moisture reacts with the air to turn copper green?

-While the pipes in the hotpress are dry to the touch, several of the compression fittings are damp to the touch. Although I don't think this is sufficient to be causing the pressure drop.

-The autofill valve was left permanently on since the system was installed in 2007. I turned it off last night. Was this the right move?

Finally, I had an extensive thread on my building nightmare circa March 2007. Every trade that worked on my house was a complete and utter fcuk up, plumber especially. My engineer told me to sell teh house as teh plumbing would cause me grief - how prophetic. So can anyone recommend a really good plumber/heating engineer in the Kildare region who will do the job, and do it right once and for all.

seensensee · 22-07-2010 07:34PM

Did you pay a visit to your local plumbers merchants yet? you know, have a chat with some of the tradesmen or perhaps leave a notice on the board?

From you earlier post I got the impression there was a sign of moisture on the floor location, is that so?

Fittings in the hot press may need to be resealed but suddenly it appears that there may be two or three jobs that need to be done in your house.

You may find it easier to come to terms with the work that needs to be done by viewing you central heating repairs in the same light as major work carried out by a mechanic, a doctor, a dentist ect. Sometimes the visit costs €100 but major works can easily run into €1000's. Have you looked into claiming on your house insurance?

yoshytoshy · 22-07-2010 08:34PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

-Some of the pipework has green staining on it. Is this the copper patinating like it does in the open air when moisture reacts with the air to turn copper green?
Green on copper usually means flux was left on pipe. A warm cloth would wipe this off.

-While the pipes in the hotpress are dry to the touch, several of the compression fittings are damp to the touch. Although I don't think this is sufficient to be causing the pressure drop.
Colder pipes can gather condensation when they're near warmer ones or in warmer areas.

-The autofill valve was left permanently on since the system was installed in 2007. I turned it off last night. Was this the right move?
This shouldn't cause any problems ,it's the only way to know whats leaving the system.

I work in Dublin ,otherwise I'd offered to help out.

Kashkai · 23-07-2010 11:06AM

Yoshy, I'm a Dub from de northsoide;) and if I can make it out to the edge of civilisation, then so can you

. My place is only a 20 minute drive from Liffey Valley.

Besides, as I've mentioned above, I'm tired of finding a new problem with the plumbing every week and at this stage, I want to get a proper job done on what I can, i.e. the visible pipework. I've decided from speaking to several leak detection specialists that my leak, while fecking annoying, is a small one and so I'm going to go with the sealant. This might work, if not, I'm no worse off.

However, I want to get the system flushed as I think its full of sludge (i.e. one radiator in particular will only heat up in the top right hand corner and a little across the top but the bottom part and the return pipe stay cold), and to redo the plumbing in the hotpress as its a mess. So if anyones interested in a reasonable sized job and who has a reasonable price

, and knows what they're doing (have to say this as the plumbers I've had in to date didn't) pm me please as I really want to get this sorted.

yoshytoshy · 23-07-2010 08:44PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Yoshy, I'm a Dub from de northsoide;) and if I can make it out to the edge of civilisation, then so can you . My place is only a 20 minute drive from Liffey Valley.

If I have a couple of days spare in the next couple of weeks ,I'll pm you if you want?

I carry a powerflushing machine with me ,all fittings both copper and waste etc ,rolls of cable for wiring ,flue analyzer ,gas leak detector and all gas cert books.

Kashkai · 25-07-2010 09:49AM

Cheers Yoshy.

In the meantime I'll keep looking for someone to do the job and if I've no luck, and if you have some spare time,I'll pm you.

Thanks

David

Buford T Justice · 25-07-2010 04:53PM

Dave, any chance of posting a pic of the plumbing in and around your hot press tank?

Kashkai · 26-07-2010 11:08AM

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Dave, any chance of posting a pic of the plumbing in and around your hot press tank?

I can take a pic no problem just to give you a laugh at the mess but I don't know how to upload it to boards.

26-07-2010 04:44PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I'll keep looking for someone to do the job

You could try Noal Noony tel: 0878168897, proper plumber and a nice man.

Buford T Justice · 26-07-2010 08:21PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I can take a pic no problem just to give you a laugh at the mess but I don't know how to upload it to boards.

You can upload it to http://wthax.org/
Main page will let you browse to the location of the file and upload it.
When its uploaded it will give you a link for the image, and you can post it here using the img tags.

Simples:D

shorty1948 · 10-09-2010 03:58PM

we had a company out to check for leaks

450 euro plus 100 per hour after

they were as useful as an ashtray on a harley

conmen might be a strong word

i can give their name if u want

Is thermal imaging my last chance to find leak?

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