CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

OurLadyofKnock · 08-09-2010 06:37PM

-Chris- wrote: »

If Save the Rail can provide backup, great. If they can't then obviously that will draw their thread into doubt. In the meantime calling other posters headbangers and spoofers isn't on.

But calling them "trolls" because they call a spade and spade and mods like you giving a thumbs up is perfectly fine I take it? There are endless personal attacks on this board which the mods have turned a blind eye to. The banning of DWCommuter was absolutely outragous. Why? Because the truth hurts people who prefer to live in anorak dreamworld.

This is a bull**** thread with no substance from what I can tell. Complete bull****.

Deal with it.

dermo88 · 08-09-2010 07:04PM

I see no point in any private operator taking over Rosslare Harbour to Bray alone, unless they are allowed through, reasonably unimpeded running to Dublin Connolly/Maynooth, where the train set can not interfere with DART and Suburban operators.

It needs an "independent" ombudsman to oversee the timetable.

BUT:

CIE and IE are the children with the Father unnamed of the following companies:

Great Southern and Western.

(Who never cooperated for the common good with Midland Great Western, Dublin South Eastern, or Great Northern)

Great Southern

(Yes, the very same boyos who single tracked the mainline to Galway)

CIE

The moment any private operator threatens their hegemony, watch the fun and games start. As follows:

Special offers by Bus Eireann
Stealth Sabotage of the private operators equipment, such as running a DART 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the through "Express" from Greystones to Dublin, thereby causing it to do the run in 50 minutes as opposed to a possible 26 minutes.

Finally, when faced with the "attack the post, not the poster", I am forced to state:

Some posters are uneducated. Some are ignorant. The best posters can solve the first two problems. However, we cannot solve stupidity.

It is a year to the day since the trainspotters sent me away. I can say that all I predicted came to pass, and I'll be sending an e-mail this evening to commemorate this great event.

-Chris- · 08-09-2010 07:08PM

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

But calling them "trolls" because they call a spade and spade and mods like you giving a thumbs up is perfectly fine I take it? There are endless personal attacks on this board which the mods have turned a blind eye to. The banning of DWCommuter was absolutely outragous. Why? Because the truth hurts people who prefer to live in anorak dreamworld.

This is a bull**** thread with no substance from what I can tell. Complete bull****.

Deal with it.

OurLadyofKnock banned for a week for arguing mod decision on-thread. Due to OurLadyofKnock's previous history and the fact that they're just back from a month ban, this ban has been increased by Calina with support from the other C&T mods.

Save the rail - please post some backup to your assertions, otherwise it's just a thread based on hearsay and is likely to continue in this vein.

goingnowhere · 08-09-2010 07:46PM

I love this Irish trait to knock anyone who tries something innovative. This is a community project and deserves support.

One company has made its pitch http://www.munster-express.ie/business/rail-revolution-proposed-for-city-tramore-and-wexford/

Save the Rail claim 2 companies interested, Rail Users Ireland 3. They deserve a bit of latitude. After all the alternative is no train at all, so anything they do is an improvement.

save the rail · 08-09-2010 07:49PM

the campaigners are working on it, when more info is available it will be posted. At the moment there are at least 2 companies interested and meetings are taking place. as things progress the thread will be updated. This is only the third working day since the NTA decision, give it a bit of time to get sorted.

topnotch · 08-09-2010 07:55PM

How many people currently use the line from Waterford to Limerick Junction is it greater than less than or equal to 70,000?

dermo88 · 08-09-2010 08:10PM

They cannot openly say which companies are interested, obviously because the main power likely to block such an initiative is CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. It would be a precedent in Ireland, but the good thing is, privatisation is not viewed as the bogeyman towards the railway network it once was in the 1980's or 1990's.

This is because there have been success stories in Sweden, Denmark, Britain, Germany and Switzerland with private operators.

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

Based on cutbacks implemented by Renfe (Spanish railways) in the 1990's, the benchmark is 25% farebox recovery ratio vs expenditure, or 50,000 users per annum, whichever is the lower on regional routes.

BUT....I will state what the dogs on the streets know. CIE and Iarnrod Eireann will do all they can to sabotage any potential private operator doing a better job.

save the rail · 08-09-2010 08:12PM

dermo88 wrote: »

They cannot openly say which companies are interested, obviously because the main power likely to block such an initiative is CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. It would be a precedent in Ireland, but the good thing is, privatisation is not viewed as the bogeyman towards the railway network it once was in the 1980's or 1990's.

This is because there have been success stories in Sweden, Denmark, Britain, Germany and Switzerland with private operators.

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

Based on cutbacks implemented by Renfe (Spanish railways) in the 1990's, the benchmark is 25% farebox recovery ratio vs expenditure, or 50,000 users per annum, whichever is the lower on regional routes.

BUT....I will state what the dogs on the streets know. CIE and Iarnrod Eireann will do all they can to sabotage any potential private operator doing a better job.

Which is why the companies interested wont be named too early in the game:)

topnotch · 08-09-2010 09:03PM

dermo88 wrote: »

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

The reason i ask is that there are currently three trains each way per day Monday-Saturday. Also you have four significant towns Tipperary 5,065 ,Cahir 3,381 Clonmel 17,008 and Carrick-on-Suir 5,856 ignoring the surrounding populations. If as i suspect they cant get 70,000 a day with this frequency of service and the size of these towns what chance is there of getting 70,000 with Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, Bridgetown.

highlydebased · 08-09-2010 09:11PM

topnotch wrote: »

The reason i ask is that there are currently three trains each way per day Monday-Saturday. Also you have four significant towns Tipperary 5,065 ,Cahir 3,381 Clonmel 17,008 and Carrick-on-Suir 5,856 ignoring the surrounding populations. If as i suspect they cant get 70,000 a day with this frequency of service and the size of these towns what chance is there of getting 70,000 with Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, Bridgetown.

70,000 a day :eek:

The current timetable on Limk Junc-Waterford might not do alot for commuting to Waterford though, most of the passengers on it seem to be for connections to/from Dublin/Cork at the junction. Probably not the fairest of comparisions in that case

-Chris- · 08-09-2010 09:19PM

Modnote:

This thread is being left open for discussion as to whether it's a worthwhile exercise for this change to happen.

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

In the absence of that information, this thread is purely academic.

I'm concerned that this thread will potentially become heated again and result in the banning of further posters, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen especially on a thread that's based on an (as yet) unconfirmed rumour.

If the thread becomes properly heated again, or if Save the Rail can't provide more information in a reasonable amount of time, I feel it's best being closed.

Thanks

Hungerford · 08-09-2010 09:24PM

According to IE material from last year, Limerick-Waterford does 54,000 passengers per year. A pretty solid number considering that they have been trying to strangle it for years. It actually has a decent amount of potential if Tricky Dicky decided to introduce proper services on it. The magnificent WRC with modern signalling etc. will only carry 100,000 per year and that includes the solid pre-existing Limerick-Ennis commuter business.

By reference, if IE's figures are to be believed, Waterford-Rosslare would do in the region of 15,000 passengers per year. The Nenagh branch does 36,000 per year.

Hungerford · 08-09-2010 09:27PM

-Chris- wrote: »

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

Apart from the voluminous amount of binding conditions relating to the maintenance of infrastructure in the NTA's decision?

parsi · 08-09-2010 09:32PM

save the rail wrote: »

the campaigners are working on it, when more info is available it will be posted. At the moment there are at least 2 companies interested and meetings are taking place. as things progress the thread will be updated. This is only the third working day since the NTA decision, give it a bit of time to get sorted.

This seems like a nice invitation-only game whereby a private company will access a grant-aided infrastructure without any public procurement process.

dermo88 · 08-09-2010 09:35PM

Is'nt that better than the nationalised operator abusing the procurement process, receiving a subsidy, getting Seouled out, while selling out the customer, and having fun with Korean brassers at our expense.

Let a private operator do it. Let them access grant aided infrastructure. Because, if they don't do it, who will.

Grant aided infrastructure exists in a lot of other countries. Why not Ireland. The private sector uses it as well.

save the rail · 08-09-2010 09:54PM

-Chris- wrote: »

Modnote:

This thread is being left open for discussion as to whether it's a worthwhile exercise for this change to happen.

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

In the absence of that information, this thread is purely academic.

I'm concerned that this thread will potentially become heated again and result in the banning of further posters, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen especially on a thread that's based on an (as yet) unconfirmed rumour.

If the thread becomes properly heated again, or if Save the Rail can't provide more information in a reasonable amount of time, I feel it's best being closed.

Thanks

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_position_on_proposal.pdf

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

markpb · 08-09-2010 09:58PM

save the rail wrote: »

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

I've heard of clutching at straws but that's taking the biscuit

topnotch · 08-09-2010 10:00PM

save the rail wrote: »

Which is why the companies interested wont be named too early in the game:)

I wonder will you be still smiling when your bluff is called.

parsi · 08-09-2010 10:13PM

dermo88 wrote: »

Is'nt that better than the nationalised operator abusing the procurement process, receiving a subsidy, getting Seouled out, while selling out the customer, and having fun with Korean brassers at our expense.

Let a private operator do it. Let them access grant aided infrastructure. Because, if they don't do it, who will.

Grant aided infrastructure exists in a lot of other countries. Why not Ireland. The private sector uses it as well.

Isn't there usually an applications process ? A service guarantee by the successful bidder ? How do they decide which company gets the mini-monopoly ?

Not much point in replacing one bunch of muppets with another..

save the rail · 08-09-2010 10:37PM

Hungerford wrote: »

According to IE material from last year, Limerick-Waterford does 54,000 passengers per year. A pretty solid number considering that they have been trying to strangle it for years. It actually has a decent amount of potential if Tricky Dicky decided to introduce proper services on it. The magnificent WRC with modern signalling etc. will only carry 100,000 per year and that includes the solid pre-existing Limerick-Ennis commuter business.

By reference, if IE's figures are to be believed, Waterford-Rosslare would do in the region of 15,000 passengers per year. The Nenagh branch does 36,000 per year.

Door to door surveying in villages the train stops in (not all homes contacted about half in each village) shows that based on 3 trains a day 70k people would use the service. The problem with the old service was that the train left waterford BEFORE people finished work so they had no other option but to drive. Head counts done on a daily basis showed 40+ passengers average daily each way, big difference to IE 25. Head counts were conducted whilst college students were on holiday

Godge · 08-09-2010 10:44PM

save the rail wrote: »

IR figures are wrong they based them on census figures which are 4 yrs old, hundreds of houses have been built in bridgetown, rosslare ect those numbeers were never taken into consideration. The other companies can see potential for high passenger numbers, links with ferries ect.

The NTA analysis (which is not Irish Rail by the way) demolisehed the submission by SERA. It quite rightly pointed out that land use policies must first create the conditions necessary for a rail service. Do the people of the Southeast know what this means?

Efffectively, for the next twenty years, in order to make the line viable, it seems to me that all one-off housing would have to be banned and all development take place only in towns with a train station.

The figures in the document (1.9m a year running costs plus 17.3m over five years to bring the line up to scratch) mean that a subvention of €100 per train journey is needed at a level of demand of 50,000 passengers per year.

Godge · 08-09-2010 10:50PM

save the rail wrote: »

Door to door surveying in villages the train stops in (not all homes contacted about half in each village) shows that based on 3 trains a day 70k people would use the service. The problem with the old service was that the train left waterford BEFORE people finished work so they had no other option but to drive. Head counts done on a daily basis showed 40+ passengers average daily each way, big difference to IE 25. Head counts were conducted whilst college students were on holiday

door to door surveying will produce that result.

people will say, of course I will use the train if there is a good service (in relaity they will find that it is handier and easier to use the car) or my daughter/son/husband/wife/cousin would love to use the train.

Just like they will say that they will use the local hospital (except if I am seriously ill and the doctors are better in Cork or Dublin)

Just like they will say that they will use the local Institute of Technology (but my Johnny is going to do medicine in Trinners)

The NTA did an analysis using census data which is much more accurate than any door to door survey conducted by people wearing save the rail badges. A census is designed to gather information in a neutral way in order to get accurate results. A door to door survey is designed to gather information to support a particular thesis or cause.

Cookie_Monster · 08-09-2010 10:53PM

save the rail wrote: »

Which is why the companies interested wont be named too early in the game:)

This is a serious piece of public infrastructure that is being taken over. This should be being done by tender with any interested companies being made public at the very earliest point due to the nature of the whole thing.

I call BS on the whole thing, the constant "oh there are companies but I amn't telling you" is just childish and does nothing but antagonise people here.

At the very least can you say whether these are real companies or some made up by a nice group of people in a shed over a cup of tea and some letter writing to the local TD?

Godge · 08-09-2010 10:53PM

save the rail wrote: »

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_position_on_proposal.pdf

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

I presume you mean the quote stating "NTA supporting any initiatives to develop a Community Rail Partnership". I notice the word used is "supporting" rather than "subventing". What form will this support take? Will be anything more than encouraging noises from the sidelines?

Cookie_Monster · 08-09-2010 10:56PM

save the rail wrote: »

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_position_on_proposal.pdf

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

NTA supporting any initiatives to develop a Community Rail Partnership.

That could mean anything from a full rail service to simply painting and watering the flowers at the station for the Tidy Towns comp :rolleyes:

topnotch · 08-09-2010 11:00PM

I think i you said it all there save the rail villages.

Transportuser09 · 08-09-2010 11:16PM

In fairness, there probably are genuine commerical reasons why the interested parties can't be named yet. I'm sceptical that any outside operator would be willing to invest in new or converted rolling stock to operate a line which is still unproven. But at the same time I wouldn't mock the campaign as they are least trying their best to do something. I just can''t see it happening.

I can see why people are curious about what company has expressed an interest though, there was a proposal about ten years ago by a 'company' called "Eurotrack Ireland" to take over most the NIR system (the future of which was under concern at the time), regauge it to the British standard gauge, run container trains and import steam locos to run tourist services...

shamwari · 08-09-2010 11:31PM

Transportuser09 wrote: »

In fairness, there probably are genuine commerical reasons why the interested parties can't be named yet.

If I were involved in this, I would be very circumspect about what information I would make public, and I certainly wouldn't be mentioning anything here. I think I may have said it already before: Delicate negotiations need to be handled away from the spotlight. Good luck though to whoever is involved!

Transportuser09 wrote: »

But at the same time I wouldn't mock the campaign as they are least trying their best to do something

I agree. The mocking is sickening TBH. The people in Wexford have the balls to make a go of this. If they did nothing, they'd be criticised. They're trying their best now and they're still being criticised. Can't bloody win, can you? :rolleyes:
Web warriors: they talk a great battle but wouldn't put a foot anywhere near the battlefield. :mad:

Godge · 08-09-2010 11:41PM

shamwari wrote: »

I agree. The mocking is sickening TBH. The people in Wexford have the balls to make a go of this. If they did nothing, they'd be criticised. They're trying their best now and they're still being criticised. Can't bloody win, can you? :rolleyes:
Web warriors: they talk a great battle but wouldn't put a foot anywhere near the battlefield. :mad:

Realistic analysis of a project's prospects is not mocking. Yes, there are some trolls who are coming on here and making snide remarks but the mods are dealing with those.

There are others who have read the NTA report, save the rail's posts, have drawn their own conclusions and are making their views known in a reasonable restrained way.

steamengine · 08-09-2010 11:58PM

shamwari wrote: »

If I were involved in this, I would be very circumspect about what information I would make public, and I certainly wouldn't be mentioning anything here. I think I may have said it already before: Delicate negotiations need to be handled away from the spotlight. Good luck though to whoever is involved!

I agree. The mocking is sickening TBH. The people in Wexford have the balls to make a go of this. If they did nothing, they'd be criticised. They're trying their best now and they're still being criticised. Can't bloody win, can you? :rolleyes:
Web warriors: they talk a great battle but wouldn't put a foot anywhere near the battlefield. :mad:

+1..... you've nailed it there ok: true rail supporters should be all wishing the foot slogging campaigners the best of luck here. Its not as if a load of taxpayers dosh is going to be continually wasted if the venture gets off the ground and for some reason subsequently fails.

Private enterprise also sees opportunities that semi-state bodies don't want to see. I've personally witnessed the disgraceful situation where trains departed rosslare as ferries were about to dock. What has the result of that been cumulatively over the years and conversely, what potential would be realised if that situation were to be reversed especially during the tourist season.

As I mentioned earlier West Cork business/tourist interests re-instated their own ferry service to and from Wales to regain business lost when the ferry service discontinued some years back and AFAIK it has been a success. The vision is there and the drive and I for one wish CRP all the very best with their project.

CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

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