Say no to property tax

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 9:42am #1

There is a page on facebook that has samples of mails sent and responses from politicians. Please read this and if you agree please an email saying no to property tax to all politicians. We will have to take a hit this budget but I feel a property tax will be a step too far. We have a very small chance of stopping this if we act. If we don't expect a bill from revenue for a percentage value of your home. I paid excessive property tax already as stamp duty and don't see why I should pay this Government or any for the right to live in my own home. Thanks for reading if you do.

SAY NO TO PROPERTY TAX The Government have been dropping hints all year that they will be targeting home owners with a property tax. We forgive those of you who believe that you have already passed over your brown paper bags to this Administration in the form of a punitive Stamp Duty for the right to own your own homes.

At this point they cannot even outline what this tax will be. Once again they are depending on the fact that we Irish, as a people, will spend our time venting to our friends but do absolutely nothing to try and stop them pushing it through. If given enough time to rant, this government believes we will once again run out of steam and they can do as they please. They are not wrong.

[MOD]Petition elements largely removed - OP stays, as it's generating discussion.[/MOD]

seamus · 19-10-2010 9:51am

Do you have another suggestion to plug a €15bn hole in our finances Richie?

Japer · 19-10-2010 10:12am

Property tax will not plug a 20 billion a year hole in the economy.

It would be akin to a house spending 5 euro for every 3 euro of household income, and then the head of the household charging a property tax per bedroom on some of the occupants in the house. Given the household cannot realistically increase its household income ( at least substantially in the short-medium term ), the real solution would be for the house not to spend the 5 euro, for every 3 euro it gets in. The real elephants in the room are the crazy amounts the government spends on public sector wages and pensions, and on social welfare.

Besides, as regards a property tax, many of those worst affected by the downturn have paid a fortune in property tax already, in the form of stamp duty. A new additional proprerty tax will only depress the property market more,hit asset values, will worsen the situation of those who find themselves in negative equity / having to sell, will worsen the bottom line for our banks and nama etc.

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 10:16am

Japer wrote: »

Property tax will not plug a 20 billion a year hole in the economy.

It would be akin to a house spending 5 euro for every 3 euro of household income, and then the head of the household charging a property tax per bedroom on some of the occupants in the house. Given the household cannot realistically increase its household income ( at least substantially in the short-medium term ), the real solution would be for the house not to spend the 5 euro, for every 3 euro it gets in. The real elephants in the room are the crazy amounts the government spends on public sector wages and pensions, and on social welfare.

Totally aggree I think a property tax would finally sink the ship ...The amount of people struggling to pay their mortgage and in neg equity is a fair proportion of the population. To put an additional charge on these people would be unfair

Nody · 19-10-2010 10:22am

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Totally aggree I think a property tax would finally sink the ship ...The amount of people struggling to pay their mortgage and in neg equity is a fair proportion of the population. To put an additional charge on these people would be unfair

Sorry but bo-frigging-bo-ho. No one held a gun to their head telling them that you had to buy a place that is now in negative equity so please stop with playing the "Oh think of the children!" card here. People are responsible for their decisions; if they decided to buy a overpriced shoe box at the top of a boom then they have to deal with that decision now.

The reality is that there WILL be tax increases and cut services; the only question now is where the cuts will be and how much additionally people will pay in what types of taxes and everyone are scrambling to avoid being the one with cut services or paying more tax.

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 10:27am

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but bo-frigging-bo-ho. No one held a gun to their head telling them that you had to buy a place that is now in negative equity so please stop with playing the "Oh think of the children!" card here. People are responsible for their decisions; if they decided to buy a overpriced shoe box at the top of a boom then they have to deal with that decision now.

The reality is that there WILL be tax increases and cut services; the only question now is where the cuts will be and how much additionally people will pay in what types of taxes and everyone are scrambling to avoid being the one with cut services or paying more tax.

True this can be called on eveything..Such why am I paying for other peoples children, why am I paying for other peoples pension, why am I paying other peoples unemployment, the list goes on

The fact is the gov got there property tax ala Stamp duty

The other problem is that the more people who cant afford to pay their mortgage and default will result in more repossesions and have one guess who will foot that bill

seamus · 19-10-2010 10:37am

Japer wrote: »

Property tax will not plug a 20 billion a year hole in the economy.

It sure won't. But if it gives us an extra 1 billion to work with, then that's 1 billion we didn't have before.
The problem is that we spent the last ten years relying on an unstable income in the form of stamp duty. We're one of the few developed nations left in the world who haven't moved over to more stable forms of income such as property taxes.
A property tax is a long-term financial plan, not a stopgap one to get us out of this hole. It's stable, bankable income.

The real elephants in the room are the crazy amounts the government spends on public sector wages and pensions, and on social welfare.

And they will be cut too.

Besides, as regards a property tax, many of those worst affected by the downturn have paid a fortune in property tax already, in the form of stamp duty.

I'm sure they'll get a rebate to a certain degree. If property tax is €1,000 a year and someone last paid €10,000 in stamp duty, then they might get a 2 or 3 year break (effectively a 20 - 30% refund on their stamp duty) before they have to pay their property tax.

Massive amounts of properties had zero tax paid on them because the government removed stamp duties and taxes in a bid to encourage FTBs and investors. Well, that unfortunately fncked everything up, so now it's time to go back to those people and look for that cash.

And for the record, I am one of those people.

A new additional proprerty tax will only depress the property market more,hit asset values, will worsen the situation of those who find themselves in negative equity / having to sell, will worsen the bottom line for our banks and nama etc.

If property tax replaces stamp duty, then it will actually help stabilise the property market quicker because anyone looking to buy will have a smaller hurdle to overcome.

Yes some people are in trouble with mortgage arrears. Property tax isn't really going to make much of an impact for those people - they're already cooked. Sure, it will mean that some people are completely incapable of getting themselves out of their hole and it will tip some others over the edge, but the vast majority of people will adapt. We'll go out less, we'll buy the cheaper bread, we'll switch to the basic digital TV package.

I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hysteria over people who are in mortgage arrears. It's only bricks and mortar and a financial transaction at the end of the day. Being kicked out of your house and having to move into rented accomodation isn't exactly earth-shattering. We don't throw people out onto the street in this country, but for whatever reason we seem to have this ideal that losing your home because you can't keep up mortgage repayments is the most horrible thing that could ever happen.

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 10:46am

seamus wrote: »

It sure won't. But if it gives us an extra 1 billion to work with, then that's 1 billion we didn't have before.
The problem is that we spent the last ten years relying on an unstable income in the form of stamp duty. We're one of the few developed nations left in the world who haven't moved over to more stable forms of income such as property taxes.
A property tax is a long-term financial plan, not a stopgap one to get us out of this hole. It's stable, bankable income.
And they will be cut too.
I'm sure they'll get a rebate to a certain degree. If property tax is €1,000 a year and someone last paid €10,000 in stamp duty, then they might get a 2 or 3 year break (effectively a 20 - 30% refund on their stamp duty) before they have to pay their property tax.

Massive amounts of properties had zero tax paid on them because the government removed stamp duties and taxes in a bid to encourage FTBs and investors. Well, that unfortunately fncked everything up, so now it's time to go back to those people and look for that cash.

And for the record, I am one of those people.
If property tax replaces stamp duty, then it will actually help stabilise the property market quicker because anyone looking to buy will have a smaller hurdle to overcome.

Yes some people are in trouble with mortgage arrears. Property tax isn't really going to make much of an impact for those people - they're already cooked. Sure, it will mean that some people are completely incapable of getting themselves out of their hole and it will tip some others over the edge, but the vast majority of people will adapt. We'll go out less, we'll buy the cheaper bread, we'll switch to the basic digital TV package.

I'm not entirely sure why there's so much hysteria over people who are in mortgage arrears. It's only bricks and mortar and a financial transaction at the end of the day. Being kicked out of your house and having to move into rented accomodation isn't exactly earth-shattering. We don't throw people out onto the street in this country, but for whatever reason we seem to have this ideal that losing your home because you can't keep up mortgage repayments is the most horrible thing that could ever happen.

Some people have paid 30/50k or more in stamp duty if they are bringing in a property tax then let them pay all stamp duty back and that will be fair

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 10:52am

seamus wrote: »

Do you have another suggestion to plug a €15bn hole in our finances Richie?

If I were to be flippant I would suggest letting the IMF in. It would ruin us for many years but guess what - we might get a state apparatus that functions efficiently, doesn't squander unnecessarily and forces a reality on our politicians and civil service that if you don't perform you don't get paid. A forestry civil servant gets paid more than the President of the US is just an example. Is that right?

But I wont be flippant as I am neither a politician, a civil servant or a finance expert. I am simply a man, a private citizen who has worked hard to buy my home and is working hard as a self employed person (very little to fall back on should it get worse) to keep paying off a mortgage which includes a high level of Stamp duty that was imposed on me by our Government. I am happy to pay my taxes and will take further hits if necessary as long as it is equitable across the board.

However targeting people who have paid stamp duty, 9% in some cases, is wrong. The stamp duties were not used to improve our health service, create a functioning transport network, encourage viable and sustainable employment prospects. It was simply squandered on inefficient quangos, ill though out developments (how much spent on the prison site and the children's hospital matter site studies). Of course I wont bring up the fact that millions were spent on outside experts as there seemingly were non available in the civil service. It is not the fault of our civil service that this state of affairs was allowed to happen.

It was the fault of spineless politicians who were unable to make decisions for themselves and thought that surrounding themselves by more staff and so called experts that they could blame others when things went wrong. They don't have that luxury any more. It is not the fault of our state employees that their task masters did not demand efficiency and proof of it. If I were brought up in that environment I would avail of everything that I was handed and fight tooth and nail to keep it.

So to answer your question - can I think of other ways to fill a 15 billion gap the answer is yes but I would be vilified by those who, and I repeat, through no fault of their own, latched on and benefited from the good times. We are all suffering so there is no easy way out for any of us.

What I will say is that my home, not the water that comes in or anything else that is supplied and I buy to run my house, But my home itself should not be touched. I have a landlord - the bank I don't need another one!

Everyone is making sacrifices - A tax on property is in my humble opinion a step too far. Its my home, its my little bit of land. Hands off.

What do you suggest we do. Do you think its fair to tax something that has already been taxed excessively.

Count Dooku · 19-10-2010 10:56am

Japer wrote: »

Besides, as regards a property tax, many of those worst affected by the downturn have paid a fortune in property tax already, in the form of stamp duty. A new additional proprerty tax will only depress the property market more,hit asset values, will worsen the situation of those who find themselves in negative equity / having to sell, will worsen the bottom line for our banks and nama etc.

May it will help people to start thinking more about waste in public services and why they should subsidize it through property tax

Jumpy · 19-10-2010 10:57am

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Some people have paid 30/50k or more in stamp duty if they are bringing in a property tax then let them pay all stamp duty back and that will be fair

Sure I pay motor tax now. They had better give me back my VRT.

seamus · 19-10-2010 10:57am

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Some people have paid 30/50k or more in stamp duty if they are bringing in a property tax then let them pay all stamp duty back and that will be fair

These "some people" then paid nearly €1m euro for their home and will therefore be subject to a higher degree of property tax, more likely €2,500/year. They can afford it of course - if you got a mortgage of €1m, then you were likely earning at least €180,000 per annum. So I'm sure that these people are not short of a penny and very few of them have lost their jobs - people on these salaries are the ones who do the firing.

Let's not forget that it's fair to reduce the "value" of that property tax in line with the reduction in the value of the home. So if that €1m house is now worth €500,000, then equally their stamp duty payment is worth €25k.

And what's a 3-year break on €2,500 property tax? €7.5k or 30% of €25k.

I don't really care all that much that people have paid stamp duty in the past. That's the past. I have money in my bank account that I've paid income tax on, yet if I want to use that money, I have to pay more tax in form of VAT and laser card stamp duties. That's life, you get taxed and then you die.

dumb_parade · 19-10-2010 11:00am

Alot of people already pay a yearly property tax. Its called management company fees. It is paid for the upkeep of the estate because the council wont maintain it. If any tax is introduced it has to take this into account.

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 11:12am

seamus wrote: »

I don't really care all that much that people have paid stamp duty in the past. That's the past. I have money in my bank account that I've paid income tax on, yet if I want to use that money, I have to pay more tax in form of VAT and laser card stamp duties. That's life, you get taxed and then you die.

Seamus

You must be trying to rise people. Many of those people who paid large amounts for their homes were not necessarily the employers. And if they were I take my hat off to them. They create employment and should be able to reap the rewards. Unfortunately many of those who jumped on the property ladder are not nor ever were earning huge amounts. The banks wrongly funded it.

If you don't care then you would not object to a retrospective once off stamp duty on all first time buyers of 9% or a percentage of the value of a rental home if you have been there for more than 12 months been imposed.

I don't thinking that anyone is or can complain about negative equity in our homes. We took the risk and were encouraged to do so at the time.

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 11:42am

We need to bridge an enormous chasm in our public finances. Just about every idea is opposed by some people -- typically the people on whom the idea will impact. There is a general pattern of hoping the burden will fall on other people.

We cannot make an adjustment of several billion euros without just about everybody being affected. So grin (or grimace) and bear it.

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 11:50am

seamus wrote: »

These "some people" then paid nearly €1m euro for their home and will therefore be subject to a higher degree of property tax, more likely €2,500/year. They can afford it of course - if you got a mortgage of €1m, then you were likely earning at least €180,000 per annum. So I'm sure that these people are not short of a penny and very few of them have lost their jobs - people on these salaries are the ones who do the firing.

Let's not forget that it's fair to reduce the "value" of that property tax in line with the reduction in the value of the home. So if that €1m house is now worth €500,000, then equally their stamp duty payment is worth €25k.

And what's a 3-year break on €2,500 property tax? €7.5k or 30% of €25k.

I don't really care all that much that people have paid stamp duty in the past. That's the past. I have money in my bank account that I've paid income tax on, yet if I want to use that money, I have to pay more tax in form of VAT and laser card stamp duties. That's life, you get taxed and then you die.

what about the people who were suckered in to 110% mortgages with jobs that were not sustainable. Being told ah sure they will always go up and now they are in neg equity for a house which they have paid 10s of 1000s on stamp duty to be asked to pay again through property tax.

As for the car analogy with car tax and comparing it to the property tax to a house. This isnt a runner

A car is optional a house or a place to live is a must. Also Car tax is every year like the proposed property tax. When you bought your car you did not have to pay car stamp duty at a couple of grand did you now so your comparing oranges with apples

As I say I have no problem with a property tax providing all stamp duty is paid back

changes · 19-10-2010 11:58am

Well whatever happens property tax for primary residence should never be higher than that of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th property tax etc.

It's all the gob****es who bought investment properties that should have to get us out of this mess. Not the ordinary people who only wanted a roof over their head.

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 12:02pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We need to bridge an enormous chasm in our public finances. Just about every idea is opposed by some people -- typically the people on whom the idea will impact. There is a general pattern of hoping the burden will fall on other people.

We cannot make an adjustment of several billion euros without just about everybody being affected. So grin (or grimace) and bear it.

Happy to grin an bear it as long as it is equitable and fair. I will not for the above reasons accept a property tax.

I don't believe a property tax is or ever can be fair and equitable.

If you need to raise funds then set several bands of tax based on real earnings which increase as you earn more.

The proposed and rumoured versions of the property tax so far have included self assessment with the revenue having the right to come back after several years and retrospectively fine you if you get the valuation wrong. Get a professional (use this term lightly) valuation and we are spending more again and it may not be accurate for revenue purposes. An increasing percentage based on the perceived value of your home not on your ability to pay.

Ill pay my taxes and find a way to do so. People wont be able to pay property tax. Thge market will be flooded by reposessions, values of teh banks remaining property debts will plummet and we will ow substantiually more in teh long run.

Simple don't put any more pressure on people who may as a result abandon their homes. Target those who can pay. Dont target businesses who create employment just the wages paid from it.

seamus · 19-10-2010 12:03pm

richb6987 wrote: »

You must be trying to rise people. Many of those people who paid large amounts for their homes were not necessarily the employers.

No, but they weren't front-line workers either. Show me a common job that pays in excess of €180,000 a year where you're not middle or senior management. Yes, it could also be two individuals earning €90k each, but these people would equally be quite high up in the chain and therefore more likely to be in charge of teams of others. My point still stands - the kind of people who paid €50k stamp duty at the height of the boom are not the same people who'll be sweating about a property tax.
It's mainly those who paid no stamp duty who'll find a property tax hardest to come up with. But they will.

If you don't care then you would not object to a retrospective once off stamp duty on all first time buyers of 9% or a percentage of the value of a rental home if you have been there for more than 12 months been imposed.

Spread over 3 years or so and based on the current value of my home, no I wouldn't have a particular problem with that, provided that it was a precursor to a long-term property taxation system. If it's just a method of sucking some money into the economy on a temporary basis, I would be opposed to it primarily because it doesn't provide any long-term stability.

what about the people who were suckered in to 110% mortgages with jobs that were not sustainable. Being told ah sure they will always go up and now they are in neg equity for a house which they have paid 10s of 1000s on stamp duty to be asked to pay again through property tax.

They took bad advice and made a bad decision. Welcome to the club. That's their problem, they signed the documents, they made the decision to go ahead with it.
Oh noes, they're stuck in financial difficulties and now we need them to pay more money. Again, welcome to the club. Our country is screwed and everybody is going to have to pay because 95% of us have been getting an easy ride for a long time.

A car is optional a house or a place to live is a must. Also Car tax is every year like the proposed property tax. When you bought your car you did not have to pay car stamp duty at a couple of grand did you now so your comparing oranges with apples

Purchasing your own home is optional. When I bought my car I effectively refunded the other guy his VRT on the vehicle through the inflated price of vehicles in this country. Stamp duty on a house effectively works the same except that instead of refunding the seller his stamp payment, everyone pays the government.

They're slightly different systems, but the fundamental is the same - we pay for the privilege of purchasing in the first place. Ongoing taxation is paying for the services we require the state to provide in order that we may use our house/car.

Japer · 19-10-2010 12:42pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We need to bridge an enormous chasm in our public finances. Just about every idea is opposed by some people -- typically the people on whom the idea will impact. There is a general pattern of hoping the burden will fall on other people.

We cannot make an adjustment of several billion euros without just about everybody being affected.

Oh yes we can. Simply reduce our public sector pay and pensions south of the border to the level of those north of the border, and theres MORE than your several billions saved. Plus morale in the country will improve as the private sector will not feel it constantly overpaying and overpensioning the public servants. ( they are supposed to be public servants, not public masters paid and pensioned nearly twice as much )

bytey · 19-10-2010 12:59pm

christ not another " facebook please save us " thread

get of your fat hole and do something for gods sake ,

instead of facebooking your conscience clean

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 1:04pm

Japer wrote: »

Oh yes we can. Simply reduce our public sector pay and pensions south of the border to the level of those north of the border, and theres MORE than your several billions saved....

Okay, I'll qualify what I said to make explicit what I thought was implicit: We cannot equitably make an adjustment of several billion euros without just about everybody being affected.

maxxie · 19-10-2010 1:09pm

seamus wrote: »

Do you have another suggestion to plug a €15bn hole in our finances Richie?

take the pensions off the ***** who caused this! Grow a bit off backbone and stop excepting everything your told!

ardmacha · 19-10-2010 1:15pm

Simply reduce our public sector pay and pensions south of the border to the level of those north of the border,

So why exactly is this a good idea and having property taxes at the level north of the border is a bad idea?

Riskymove · 19-10-2010 1:16pm

Japer wrote: »

Oh yes we can. Simply reduce our public sector pay and pensions south of the border to the level of those north of the border, and theres MORE than your several billions saved.

suich a move in one go would result in a massive amount of private sector jobs being lost

Plus morale in the country will improve as the private sector will not feel it constantly overpaying and overpensioning the public servants. ( they are supposed to be public servants, not public masters paid and pensioned nearly twice as much )

change the record jimmmy, surprised you didnt throw in something about apartheid

seamus · 19-10-2010 1:19pm

maxxie wrote: »

take the pensions off the ***** who caused this! Grow a bit off backbone and stop excepting everything your told!

...and instead I should repeat tabloid and union rhetoric?

Tell me:
Who caused this?
Can we legally take their pensions from them?
Are those pensions worth €15bn per year, every year?
Will we save money by removing these pensions (and therefore income tax and interest) from the economy?

smokingman · 19-10-2010 1:23pm

I'd be more than happy to pay a property tax if I was guarenteed better local services like drinkable water, proper broadband....there's a long list...

Count Dooku · 19-10-2010 1:27pm

Riskymove wrote: »

suich a move in one go would result in a massive amount of private sector jobs being lost

Increased taxation will have exactly the same effect, probably even worse, because it will drive more people away to countries with lower taxes

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 1:27pm

bytey wrote: »

christ not another " facebook please save us " thread

get of your fat hole and do something for gods sake ,

instead of facebooking your conscience clean

Bytey. Thanks for the constructive contribution.

Facebook is one of many potential outlets to continue a campaign to email politicians about our grieviences. It is not a means of cleansing. BTW Boards.ie is another. If you want to get up off your obviously pert behind and do something I suggest you enchourage us and explaine how we can help. We are a nation that has no sense of outrage so tell me how we should vent our feelings, express our dismay and dissatisfaction. I thought a sustained email campaign from Voters might be a small way of achieving this. If nothing else it raises awarness that this tax might just be the straw that ignights the pent up fury withing this country.

I shall quote an email that was sent to all politicians by someone (not me or any friend of mine for that matter) who is not not even on facebook - Oh the shock of it ---

"If any of you think that a property tax is a good revenue raising idea think again - it will be the straw that breaks the camels back and ends your political carers. Votes will be very hard to come by for all of you in the very near future.

I am still paying back the Stamp Duty that I was forced to pay in 2003, which was subsequently squandered by all of you over the last few years. Then again it may sitting in one of your personal bank accounts, compliments of your very generous 'no questions asked - nudge and wink' expense system.

You people need to wake up and actually see what going on here - pretty soon there will be nobody left in the country to tax, apart from civil servants - how's that going work? or will you just cross that bridge when you come to it, as you do with all your policies.....

I am not a member of any political party. I have no allegiance to any party. I am just citizen of this country who is extremely pi**ed off with what all of you have done and the way you think you can tax your way out of it.

I will see you at my door step next year ! Make the right decision Say No to Property Tax !"

BTW from my own experience many of these politicians listed in the first post of this mail will respond. So you know someone is reading them and have something to hold over them if they pass by your door in the future. Oh I should say politicians from the opposition parties have responded not the Government parties.

Count Dooku · 19-10-2010 1:28pm

seamus wrote: »

...and instead I should repeat tabloid and union rhetoric?

Tell me:
Who caused this?
Can we legally take their pensions from them?
Are those pensions worth €15bn per year, every year?
Will we save money by removing these pensions (and therefore income tax and interest) from the economy?

those pension preserved by law and even changing of constitution will not help :mad:

johnboy_123 · 19-10-2010 1:31pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Okay, I'll qualify what I said to make explicit what I thought was implicit: We cannot equitably make an adjustment of several billion euros without just about everybody being affected.

You have apoint here Breathnack, as much as I dont want a property tax it will come in...

But I hope they cut everywhere and everything equally

P.S pay/penions cut
Welfare Cut
Increase in taxes
Everyone in the tax net
3rd and 4th band of tax introduced
Child allowence cut accross the board
OAP cut

did I leave anyone out oh yeah start with 50% cut in all politicians pay and pensions

Japer · 19-10-2010 1:44pm

richb6987 wrote: »

I am still paying back the Stamp Duty that I was forced to pay in 2003, which was subsequently squandered by all of you over the last few years. Then again it may sitting in one of your personal bank accounts, compliments of your very generous 'no questions asked - nudge and wink' expense system.

You people need to wake up and actually see what going on here - pretty soon there will be nobody left in the country to tax, apart from civil servants - how's that going work?

+1, and great post. We all know where the stamp duty many of us paid in the boom went to. It was said 50% of the cost of property went in taxes too ( capital gains tax, income tax , vat etc ) , and we all know whose pockets all that money went in to. And now, even as they are higher paid, higher pensioned + more secure than us, they are coming back for more tax ? Revolt, people.

bladespin · 19-10-2010 1:48pm

I paid my property tax as stamp duty, it's done, if they want to do away with stamp or refund it then by all means bring in a property tax but not a double taxation system.

dan_d · 19-10-2010 1:49pm

If you handed over stamp duty you should not be expected to pay a property tax. You are paying over again what you've already paid.

I'm glad to see some of the anger is now directed towards not actually having to pay the tax/stamp duty, but more the manner in which it was spent by those to whom it was paid. We need to see a hell of a lot more of that kind of anger- let our politicians know that we are not happy with their behaviour at all.

As for sitting there and saying "well nobody MADE them get a mortgage"...helpful. If that's what you're saying, you obviously don't own a house, therefore this will not affect you. And should you buy a house at some point in the future (when you're sure nobody is MAKING you get a mortgage),I'm sure you'll find out all about this and discover what a pain in the ass it is.

It comes down to this - it is deeply, deeply unfair to levy property charges on people who handed over the equivalent of a deposit on the house to the taxman. If I saw return for my money - maybe...but we won't. It will just be used to plug the hole between what we're taking in and what we're paying out in inflated wages, among other things. This should be one of the very last places they look for money.

And for the record - I am one of those who bought when stamp duty was abolished. I would find the tax difficult but I could see why somebody in my position could be reasonably asked to pay it. However I do not think it is anywhere near fair to ask those who already paid stamp duty to fork out again, on a yearly basis.

Count Dooku · 19-10-2010 1:51pm

johnboy_123 wrote: »

You have apoint here Breathnack, as much as I dont want a property tax it will come in...

But I hope they cut everywhere and everything equally

You forgot that in this country some animals are more equal then other:rolleyes:

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 1:58pm

johnboy_123 wrote: »

You have apoint here Breathnack, as much as I dont want a property tax it will come in...

But I hope they cut everywhere and everything equally

P.S pay/penions cut
Welfare Cut
Increase in taxes
Everyone in the tax net
3rd and 4th band of tax introduced
Child allowence cut accross the board
OAP cut

did I leave anyone out oh yeah start with 50% cut in all politicians pay and pensions

I'm not going to get into detailed discussion of everything on your list (there is only so much time, even for us retired people). But yes, I accept the general thrust of what you say: we will need a range of measures, and must of us will be hit. And we all have to accept some pain.

Riskymove · 19-10-2010 2:08pm

dan_d wrote: »

As for sitting there and saying "well nobody MADE them get a mortgage"...helpful. If that's what you're saying, you obviously don't own a house, therefore this will not affect you. And should you buy a house at some point in the future (when you're sure nobody is MAKING you get a mortgage),I'm sure you'll find out all about this and discover what a pain in the ass it is.

nonsens...I have a house with a mortgage...but I didn't get a 100% 40 year mortgage at a monthly rate at the limit of what I could then afford

Keith186 · 19-10-2010 2:08pm

It does seem unfair to have a property tax but it could be argued that the people who contributed to the property bubble, ie property owners, should have to pay more for their role.

Personally I wouldn't like a property tax as once you buy the place you shouldn't have to pay anymore tax but were in a hole.

pH · 19-10-2010 2:43pm

if there is a property tax then it *must* tax all land/property on an equal footing by value - and if the scale is non-linear then it should be progressive.

However, I feel that it's not going to be a property tax, just a bend over and take it for the middle-class homeowners - if every piece of land and property (residential and business) is taxed at the same rate then I'm happy to pay my small share.

Anyone got an estimate of the total value of all property (houses/land/farms/business/offices/shopping malls etc) in Ireland?

P. Breathnach · 19-10-2010 2:49pm

pH wrote: »

... Anyone got an estimate of the total value of all property (houses/land/farms/business/offices/shopping malls etc) in Ireland?

If there is such a person, there is a job in NAMA waiting for him or her.

AntiNwoWarrior · 19-10-2010 2:52pm

The house I live in is bought and paid for'the mortgage is paid off and done with' I will not pay any form of property tax' my house is my home and my property and not the property of this goverment' furthermore expecting people to pay property tax when they already own their homes is form of socialism and violating private property rights.

bladespin · 19-10-2010 2:59pm

How would you go about a property tax anyway, surely it would have to be based somewhere around the value of the property, how could anyone establish that as at the moment there is no value attached to property here?

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 3:01pm

Keith186 wrote: »

It does seem unfair to have a property tax but it could be argued that the people who contributed to the property bubble, ie property owners, should have to pay more for their role.
.

I thought the bubble was caused by successive governments encouraging the contributors to their political funds to build like there was no tomorrow, banks who lied to the public as well as themselves and lent as if there was no end in sight, A regulator who was tasked by his taskmasters not to rock teh boat and inept and corrupt politicians.

How can this be argued that I caused the crash. Nearly every Irish man and woman has it in their psyche to want to own a little bit of our fair green island. Whether this is a hang up to years when we had no right to own property or not I have no idea. We are not like many on the continent who are happy to rent - we like to own.

I did not contribute to the property bubble by desperately wanting to own my home. If I did I sincerely apologise to all here and will now head into Berties constituency office and pay my dues.

ardmacha · 19-10-2010 4:46pm

I did not contribute to the property bubble by desperately wanting to own my home.

No. But you did contribute to the property bubble if you purchased an overpriced house.

You decided to this and now you are using this decision in the past as a basis for avoiding paying your fair share of taxation, which is a bit rich given that the increased taxation has arisen because of people like you not paying back loans to banks and the government taking money from the rest of us to bail them out.

deelite · 19-10-2010 4:52pm

I'm just wondering (curiousity more than anything else) - will the following be subject to property tax -

Houses owned by Councils
Mobile Homes
Granny Flats
Shops

ardmacha · 19-10-2010 4:55pm

Shops

Do shops not already pay commercial rates?

deelite · 19-10-2010 4:59pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Do shops not already pay commercial rates?

I don't know but say you own the shop so would you be liable to "property tax"? I think it's a very hazy area altoghether - and no I don't own a shop

richb6987 · 19-10-2010 5:24pm

ardmacha wrote: »

No. But you did contribute to the property bubble if you purchased an overpriced house.

You decided to this and now you are using this decision in the past as a basis for avoiding paying your fair share of taxation, which is a bit rich given that the increased taxation has arisen because of people like you not paying back loans to banks and the government taking money from the rest of us to bail them out.

No I did not pay too much for my home. I paid what I was willing to and what the banks wanted to offer me at the time. I have not gone into negative equity as have many of my peers so that is not my issue. Again I repeat I paid Stamp Duty. I have paid my property tax.

I take offence to your holier than thou attitude and in fact if I was inclined I would say Fu"%^K you but I wont. Anyone who paid for a home did so in good faith. Often on advice from mortgage brokers, banks, auctioneers and with the promise from our politicians that we were in good stead and property was a good investment. They all paid Stamp Duty unless they were first time buyers purchasing new homes that our government were enchouraging as it was in their interest and the interest of their builder friends in that tent in Galway. So actually accusing anyone who owns a home as contributing to the bubble is farcicale. You need to go into a corner and take a right proper look at yourself and see how offensive you have just been to the majority of home-owners in this country. In particular those who hjave struggled to continue making payments on home so they can honour their debts while watching builders and Mbankers declare themselves bankrupt in jurisdictions that will allow them set up again in a year or two. If you default here you might as well forget your credit rating for ten years.

I am happy to pay tax if it is fair. I am not trying to avoid paying tax as did many of this governments main parties leading members. I am not making an excuse. So actually F U and your attitude.

dan_d · 19-10-2010 5:30pm

Riskymove wrote: »

nonsens...I have a house with a mortgage...but I didn't get a 100% 40 year mortgage at a monthly rate at the limit of what I could then afford

That's nice.Neither did I. And I bought 2 years ago.

ardmacha · 19-10-2010 5:37pm

So actually accusing anyone who owns a home as contributing to the bubble is farcicale.

That people who overpaid for houses caused the bubble is simple fact, nothing more.

I am not trying to avoid paying tax

You absolutely are proposing to avoid paying tax on the basis on some taxes paid previously. Even Anglo Irish Bank paid a lot of taxes previously, but this is water under the bridge. The deficit is this year and next, not in the past, whatever taxes people paid then, or didn't.

cee_jay · 19-10-2010 8:43pm

Ireland is the only country in Western Europe that doesn't have a property tax.
It is the only country in the OECD that allows a tax deduction for mortgage interest payments at the same time as not taxing property values, capital gains or imputed rent (from OECD 2006 report).

Introduce a property tax, and income taxes don't have to go so high. As property is immovable it is hard for people to evade paying their fair share (at the moment there are quite a few tax breaks available to the top earners - if someone has a good accountant their tax bill goes down).

I for one would be welcoming a property tax.

Say no to property tax

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