Leaving Cert as Gaeilge (Bonus Marks for Irish)

graceknowsstuff · 08-01-2010 1:25pm #1

Hi, I'm eh, new here. I searched the forums and internet, this doesn't seem to be a very discussed topic.

Anyways, the whole Bonus Marks for Irish thing - do you have to do EVERY subject in Irish for that to apply, or could you just ask for a paper 'as Gaeilge' for one or two subjects? I thought that it was the latter but my Irish teacher seemed pretty sure it was all or Irish or none.
It doesn't really say here, but I took from that that you could pick and choose but not really sure.
It's more of a fleeting thought rather than something I really want to do, but I'd like to know! Has anyone here done any Leaving Cert papers in Irish or considered it? Thanks.

Conor108 · 08-01-2010 5:38pm

No idea!

But I've alway wondered if I just ticked 'Did it Irish' on a maths (no/few actual words to write) would you get extra marks? Or would they give you the paper in Irish

Mary007 · 08-01-2010 6:31pm

Coughs... Hi

I also wondered about that but you should be able to do it for just individual papers?

GLUEY · 08-01-2010 6:37pm

It's all or none I believe.

almostnever · 08-01-2010 6:50pm

AFAIK, you have to do them all through Irish or none at all. Could be wrong though,the only people I know who did the Leaving Cert through Irish are friends of friends.

eVeNtInE · 08-01-2010 7:02pm

This post has been deleted.

syklops · 08-01-2010 7:11pm

Its all or nothing.

My mother did it all in Irish when she was at leaving and got her extra points. The only problem is, to this day, she only knows the irish words for mathematical and scientific words. I can see problems arising for people getting to college and having to relearn maths/science jargon in english.

Also, if you dont know the irish equivalents and write down the english words in say the Maths paper, you will drop marks.

I would only recommend doing it all in Irish if you are already in a Gaelscoil.

Its a daft idea anyway.

**Timbuk2** · 08-01-2010 7:39pm

I think it's a daft idea. The extra points that you get are probably not worth the effort of doing the subjects through Irish. The thought of writing a Geography essay in Irish is pretty horrific.

MathsManiac · 08-01-2010 10:25pm

It's not all or nothing - you can pick and choose which subjects you do through Irish. You have to make sure you indicate it when you're applying, as otherwise no Irish versions of the paper will be sent to the school.

Also, if you're taking the paper through Irish, you are entitled to get an English copy of the paper too. (You won't get it automatically - the superintendent gives it to you if you ask for it.)

rainbowtrout · 08-01-2010 10:35pm

MathsManiac wrote: »

It's not all or nothing - you can pick and choose which subjects you do through Irish. You have to make sure you indicate it when you're applying, as otherwise no Irish versions of the paper will be sent to the school.

Also, if you're taking the paper through Irish, you are entitled to get an English copy of the paper too. (You won't get it automatically - the superintendent gives it to you if you ask for it.)

+1

However, if you think you can take a shortcut and ask for an Irish paper that requires the answers to be written onto the paper (many of the Ordinary Level ones are done like this, or short answer questions on Higher Level) and answer the Irish paper in English, you will not get the bonus. Answers must be in Irish.

10% of the marks you are awarded in the subject are added on if you do it through Irish, up to a score of 70% ( I think), then it's a sliding scale downwards for the bonus as you go into the higher grades from 70-100%.

So if you score 50% in Geography through Irish you will get 5% added on as your bonus. It's not an automatic 10% for everyone.

Jammyc · 08-01-2010 11:36pm

I thought it was 10% of the marks that you missed out on that you get? Maybe I'm wrong tho. Ill go have a look

Yeah, I was wrong.

Examinations Website wrote:

Bonus marks at the rate of 10 per cent of the marks obtained will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

Bonus marks at the rate of 5 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the following subjects:- French, German, Italian, Spanish, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, Accounting, Engineering, Construction Studies, Materials Technology (Wood), Metalwork, Technology, Typewriting, Russian, Japanese.

Bonus marks at the rate of 3 per cent will be given to a candidate who obtains less than 75 per cent of the total marks in the case of the subject Art, Craft, Design (Junior Certificate).

Above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.

No bonus will be given in the case of the following subjects:- Technical Graphics, Technical Drawing, Leaving Certificate Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).

For the purpose of the award of bonus marks, Mathematics, Paper I and Paper II, will be treated as separate subjects.

missypiggy · 10-01-2010 6:32pm

I did my entire lc through Irish and I would definitely recommend it. However I always went to Irish schools so for me I think it would have actually been more difficult to do my exams in English.

syklops wrote: »

I can see problems arising for people getting to college and having to relearn maths/science jargon in english.

Although I didn't have this problem myself (I'm studying English), I know people who found english maths terms confusing when they first went to college. They seemed to get used to it pretty quickly though.

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

I think it's a daft idea. The extra points that you get are probably not worth the effort of doing the subjects through Irish. The thought of writing a Geography essay in Irish is pretty horrific.

That's a pretty narrow minded opinion I think! Like I said, for someone who has always learned through Irish it's the most natural thing, the extra points are just a bonus!

Just to clarify, the bonus points are 10% of the marks you DIDN'T get...eg if you score 60%, you will get an extra 4% to raise your mark to 64%. However I think if you score 90% or higher it no longer applies.

MathsManiac · 10-01-2010 10:41pm

missypiggy wrote: »

Just to clarify, the bonus points are 10% of the marks you DIDN'T get...eg if you score 60%, you will get an extra 4% to raise your mark to 64%. However I think if you score 90% or higher it no longer applies.

That is not the case, as can readily be seen from the information on the SEC website, already quoted by Jammyc in the previous post.

If you score 60%, you'll get 6% added in a subject that attracts 10%.

Of course, it's not done on the percentage, it's done on the mark. Suppose there's a subject that's marked out of 400 and gets the bonus at the rate of 5%. Then, for marks up to 300 (which is 75% of 400), the bonus is a straight 5% of what you got. If you scored 240 marks (60%), you would get 5% of 240, which is 12 marks, giving you 252 out of 400 (66%). If the calculation doesn't go evenly, the mark is rounded down. (E.g., if you 239 marks, your bonus would be only 11 marks even though 5% of 239 is 11.95.)

If you get more than 75% the "sliding scale" kicks in. Examiners get a table telling them how many marks to award, to save them having to work it out, but it's easy enough: you subtract your mark from the total, and get three times the percentage of that. So, if it's a 400 mark paper attracting 5%, and if you got 340 marks out of 400, (which is more than 75%) you subtract 340 from 400, giving 60), and then get 15% of that, which is 9 marks, giving you a final total of 349.

Some of the marking schemes have all of the above information in them, but not all of them do. For an example of one that does, see the last page of the 2009 higher level maths scheme: http://www.examinations.ie/archive/markingschemes/2009/LC003ALP000EV.pdf

graceknowsstuff · 23-01-2010 6:18pm

syklops wrote: »

Its all or nothing.

My mother did it all in Irish when she was at leaving and got her extra points. The only problem is, to this day, she only knows the irish words for mathematical and scientific words. I can see problems arising for people getting to college and having to relearn maths/science jargon in english.

Also, if you dont know the irish equivalents and write down the english words in say the Maths paper, you will drop marks.

I would only recommend doing it all in Irish if you are already in a Gaelscoil.

Its a daft idea anyway.

Yeah, it was my mother having done it that had me thinking.
However, she told me she only did one or two subjects through Irish? Not really sure, maybe there was that choice yeeeears ago when she went to school!

Anyways, thanks for clearing that up; I wasn't overly bothered as the only subjects I COULD do through Irish I will, hopefully, score high enough in, anyways! It was just, as I said, one of these things that occurred to me (I don't usually trust what my teacher says)!

gemxpink · 24-01-2010 1:47pm

I think it's a really good thought. I'd love to do it through Irish but Home Economics would be dreadful!

emememem · 15-02-2010 8:54pm

was in a gaeltacht school, you can pick whichever subjects you want to do through irish. most people in our school did the science subjects through english and everything else through irish.

i'd suggest doing maths and whatever languages.
if you dont go to an irish school i wouldnt advise you to do history or anything like that! its tough!!
you will get both an irish and english copy of the exam paper

oh and we were always told its 10% of the mark you didnt get. if it was 10% of the mark you did get you could end up with 110%
its really annoying when people think we just get 10% extra or when they give out, it is harder to do learn subjects through irish.

Corkfeen · 15-02-2010 9:16pm

I'm in an irish speaking school and you get used to doing exams etc through irish fairly quickly. I'm contemplating doing my entire biology paper in english (don't mind losing bonus) simply because the terminology drives me nuts. All other subjects are grand in irish.

Wouldn't reccomend someone trying it out if they don't learn their subjects through irish.

grrrrrrrrrr · 16-02-2010 3:49pm

syklops wrote: »

Its all or nothing.

My mother did it all in Irish when she was at leaving and got her extra points. The only problem is, to this day, she only knows the irish words for mathematical and scientific words. I can see problems arising for people getting to college and having to relearn maths/science jargon in english.

Also, if you dont know the irish equivalents and write down the english words in say the Maths paper, you will drop marks.

I would only recommend doing it all in Irish if you are already in a Gaelscoil.

Its a daft idea anyway.

There are people repeating in my school this year who did the entire leaving in irish last year and they are finding it extremely difficult in english!! they keep saying the irish words in class. this'll be a balls when they go to college!

Just a point to remember!

and i tink its a daft idea too! if you expecting a high B or A in subjects then dont bother!!

do the poll on the other thread in this forum about banning irish! just to get yeer opinions!

ChristinaIndigo · 17-02-2010 12:32am

I don't think I'd even attempt it if I had fluent Irish......

Half the words you'd need for something like Geography could be so confusing because, realistically - more than half of them would never have been needed in conversational Irish.

God knows what way the questions would come up! lol!

Really can't see why people attempt it.....

Fair play though if you go for it. Really not my cup of tea though!

xxxxx

Fad · 17-02-2010 12:54am

syklops wrote: »

Its all or nothing.

My mother did it all in Irish when she was at leaving and got her extra points. The only problem is, to this day, she only knows the irish words for mathematical and scientific words. I can see problems arising for people getting to college and having to relearn maths/science jargon in english.

You basically relearn everything in college if you do technical subjects like maths or science, irrespective of what language you used to gain entrance into college with.

Leaving Cert does not provide an adequate foundation.

jreanor · 17-06-2010 9:00am

I realize this thread is a sold as the hills but I couldnt find any information on it. Just to let everyone know the Irish bonus isnt all or nothing. I dont go to an Irish school and I sat my Maths exam as Gaeilge this and will be doing the same for Applied maths. The superintendent just gives you both Irish and english papers.

Some useful information here also:
http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im

bidy · 17-06-2010 10:33am

I did all of mine through irish and because i'm from donegal our irish isn't really the same as whats in the irish books...so we learn from english books ans just sorta translate in our heads or some f the teachers write irish notes. but its not that bad! i did geography and history in irish aswell as everything else.

citizenerased1 · 18-06-2010 12:05pm

Conor108 wrote: »

No idea!

But I've alway wondered if I just ticked 'Did it Irish' on a maths (no/few actual words to write) would you get extra marks? Or would they give you the paper in Irish

exact same :L

i was so tempted

Legend45 · 18-06-2010 2:37pm

gemxpink wrote: »

I think it's a really good thought. I'd love to do it through Irish but Home Economics would be dreadful!

home economics through irish is a pure NIGHTMARE i'm from the gaeltacht and whoever wrote that book must've learnt irish on a far far away planet

i go to a gaelscoil and our teachers basically told us that they may say they give the marks but in all honesty, it makes no difference because they dont care if its english or irish?therefore i never took any notice if i did actually get any bonus marks?...i'd be super happy if i did!

pog it · 18-06-2010 2:38pm

graceknowsstuff wrote: »

Hi, I'm eh, new here. I searched the forums and internet, this doesn't seem to be a very discussed topic.

Anyways, the whole Bonus Marks for Irish thing - do you have to do EVERY subject in Irish for that to apply, or could you just ask for a paper 'as Gaeilge' for one or two subjects? I thought that it was the latter but my Irish teacher seemed pretty sure it was all or Irish or none.
It doesn't really say here, but I took from that that you could pick and choose but not really sure.
It's more of a fleeting thought rather than something I really want to do, but I'd like to know! Has anyone here done any Leaving Cert papers in Irish or considered it? Thanks.

Good woman Grace, I hadn't a clue this existed!

jreanor · 18-06-2010 4:21pm

citizenerased1 wrote: »

exact same :L

i was so tempted

My Applied Maths teacher says her students have been doing it successfully for years. You just get both Irish and English papers.

I think she said its not enough just to tick the box. You have to write on the application we got in May. Just so that it goes to an Irish speaking examiner. Not sure about this though. Just ticking is worth a try if you havent applied to do it.

JRooster · 18-06-2010 4:46pm

is it really all or nothing? im so disapointed!

i just finished today and i did them all in irish except for one

Indigo Sunrise · 18-06-2010 4:48pm

It's not all or nothing. I'm doing one subject in English too and I know many others doing the same. The bonus marks for Irish are calculated separately for each subject so it doesn't matter if you're doing one in English.

JRooster · 18-06-2010 4:51pm

Indigo Sunrise wrote: »

It's not all or nothing. I'm doing one subject in English too and I know many others doing the same. The bonus marks for Irish are calculated separately for each subject so it doesn't matter if you're doing one in English.

that's what i thought...thanks for that, nearly cried

xemmsx · 18-06-2010 5:15pm

I seriously think its well deserved though.. I mean even though I've been going to an all irish speaking school my whole life its still way harder to do the LC in irish.. We basically have understand it in english and in irish and then learn it in irish.. its learning it twice really.. no offence to anyone but the idea of doing the LC in english would be like a break for my head!! hahaha:D:D

still wouldnt change for the world I love being fluent in fairly unknown language.. it can come in very handy if you what i mean :cool:

MavisDavis · 18-06-2010 6:27pm

xemmsx wrote: »

I seriously think its well deserved though.. I mean even though I've been going to an all irish speaking school my whole life its still way harder to do the LC in irish.. We basically have understand it in english and in irish and then learn it in irish.. its learning it twice really.. no offence to anyone but the idea of doing the LC in english would be like a break for my head!! hahaha:D:D

still wouldnt change for the world I love being fluent in fairly unknown language.. it can come in very handy if you what i mean :cool:

This might be a bit off-topic, but I don't think bonus points for Irish is fair. You've been going to an Irish speaking school your whole life, I've been going to English speaking ones - why do you deserve more marks than I do?

Nobody is making you do the Leaving through Irish and most of the people who attempt it live in the Gaeltacht and speak Irish as their first language. English is my first language - where are my bonus marks?!

Indigo Sunrise · 18-06-2010 6:43pm

I'd say 90% of my class don't have Irish as their first language. Even for the ones who speak it at home it's still hard. There are so many technical words that you will have never heard of in Irish. I'm pretty much fluent in Irish but I still have to look up an awful lot of translations for these words. This isn't helped by the fact that for a lot of subject there is no textbook in Irish as well as other resources like grinds. There's definitely a lot more effort required to the LC in Irish even if Irish is your first language, because those people are also fluent in English anyway.

That being said I don't think there should be bonus marks for Irish. It's basically encouraging people to do something that is actually detrimental them, as they have to put in a lot of extra work and the vast majority of students will never use these Irish terms ever again. It will also be harder for them when they go to colege. Fair enough if you want to do it through Irish but I don't think you should get extra marks.

ChristinaA · 18-06-2010 7:02pm

MavisDavis wrote: »

This might be a bit off-topic, but I don't think bonus points for Irish is fair. You've been going to an Irish speaking school your whole life, I've been going to English speaking ones - why do you deserve more marks than I do?

Nobody is making you do the Leaving through Irish and most of the people who attempt it live in the Gaeltacht and speak Irish as their first language. English is my first language - where are my bonus marks?!

Not a lot of people speak it, well 350,000 and they are trying to save the language so if more people do their subjects through irish they are helping so thats why you get bonus!!:D

ChristinaA · 18-06-2010 7:03pm

Indigo Sunrise wrote: »

Fair enough if you want to do it through Irish but I don't think you should get extra marks.

why shouldnt you though?

Indigo Sunrise · 18-06-2010 7:33pm

ChristinaA wrote: »

why shouldnt you though?

Why should you? Why should someone get extra marks for doing it through Irish while someone doing it in English gets nothing? I don't understand why Irish should get that preferential treatment. The only difference I see is that doing it through Irish is a lot less useful in the real world. I don't see why you should be rewarded for doing something that's not useful.

xemmsx · 19-06-2010 2:17pm

MavisDavis wrote: »

This might be a bit off-topic, but I don't think bonus points for Irish is fair. You've been going to an Irish speaking school your whole life, I've been going to English speaking ones - why do you deserve more marks than I do?

Nobody is making you do the Leaving through Irish and most of the people who attempt it live in the Gaeltacht and speak Irish as their first language. English is my first language - where are my bonus marks?!

english is my first language too.. I dont live in a gaeltacht and I am the only person in my family that speaks irish.. Im fluent because I go to school where Irish is all you're allowed to speak.

We deserve the bonus because we don't have the same resources that people from an english speaking school have such as grinds, revision books etc.
Im not saying that we are more intelligent or anything but we do put in an awful lot more work and we HAVE to work alot harder to learn the same things and to be on the same standard of an english speaking school.. I mean you cant even examination papers in irish anymore and my school had to put them together themselves.
Basically I know everything you know for the leaving cert but I ALSO know it a different language!!!:D:D

drg85 · 19-06-2010 2:40pm

There is absolutely no reason why bonus points should be applied for Irish; It is technically discimination; We have many eastern european students speaking Russian, Polish or some other slavic language as a first tongue and yet they do not receive any bonus for taking the exam in what is essentially an alien tongue to them. Why not get bonus points for doing the LC in French? Or German?

The argument usually falls back to 'heritage' and 'preservation'. That is a weak and dishonest tact though; the primary goal of language is to allow the communication of ideas and information. And that is why languages like English evolve so fast - they are widely used for interchange of ideas. It is also the primary reason languages die out -because they are no longer of the threshold density to allow meaningful communication. Lanuage should be a living thing, constantly evovling. That is not the case with Irish - it is essentially a dead language with no reason for continued support.

Sure people may be allowed to study it if they so choose, and that option should be there, the same as if one elected to study Latin. (However I'd wager Latin would be a more useful subject to have as it forms the backbone of all the romantic languages and thus would be useful in learning English, French, Spanish etc..) But I can see no reason why Irish should either be compulsory OR why one should be rewarded extra points for doing so. It essentially amounts to an unfair and unwarrented bias.

Car_Car · 19-06-2010 5:10pm

xemmsx wrote: »

english is my first language too.. I dont live in a gaeltacht and I am the only person in my family that speaks irish.. Im fluent because I go to school where Irish is all you're allowed to speak.

We deserve the bonus because we don't have the same resources that people from an english speaking school have such as grinds, revision books etc.
Im not saying that we are more intelligent or anything but we do put in an awful lot more work and we HAVE to work alot harder to learn the same things and to be on the same standard of an english speaking school.. I mean you cant even examination papers in irish anymore and my school had to put them together themselves.
Basically I know everything you know for the leaving cert but I ALSO know it a different language!!!:D:D

I am in the exact same situation, english is my first language too, while I go to an all Irish secondary school it certainly does not mean were getting sympathy points or anything its not the hardest through Irish but I recently started doing Chemistry In english and Its like dropping down pass chemistry. As in the above post we dont have the same resources...no of those revise wise books or anythng.

Oh and You can kinda pick and choose what subjects you want to do in Irish but you have to answer everything in Irish (for maths this isnt much of a problem)

xemmsx · 19-06-2010 6:21pm

drg85 wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason why bonus points should be applied for Irish; It is technically discimination; We have many eastern european students speaking Russian, Polish or some other slavic language as a first tongue and yet they do not receive any bonus for taking the exam in what is essentially an alien tongue to them. Why not get bonus points for doing the LC in French? Or German?

The argument usually falls back to 'heritage' and 'preservation'. That is a weak and dishonest tact though; the primary goal of language is to allow the communication of ideas and information. And that is why languages like English evolve so fast - they are widely used for interchange of ideas. It is also the primary reason languages die out -because they are no longer of the threshold density to allow meaningful communication. Lanuage should be a living thing, constantly evovling. That is not the case with Irish - it is essentially a dead language with no reason for continued support.

Sure people may be allowed to study it if they so choose, and that option should be there, the same as if one elected to study Latin. (However I'd wager Latin would be a more useful subject to have as it forms the backbone of all the romantic languages and thus would be useful in learning English, French, Spanish etc..) But I can see no reason why Irish should either be compulsory OR why one should be rewarded extra points for doing so. It essentially amounts to an unfair and unwarrented bias.

ehm maybe because we live in Ireland it should be widely respected what our official national language is.... bunreacht na hEireann is written in irish not in english not in german, or french or any other language!
its not just our heritage or our history it is a language that is used to run this country everyday....
and its becoming more and more popular so I would hardly call it "dead". I for one love it as a language and I think anyway to keep at alive and strong should be embraced even if that does mean that I have to do extra work for the leaving cert... I still wouldn't change it for the world and I know for a fact Im not the only one:D

Ferris_Bueller · 22-06-2010 1:54pm

I just sat my Leaving Cert through Irish, and to be honest I don't think its worth the extra marks. Don't know about other schools, but in my school a lot of the subjects were done from English books and then translated, which made it extremely confusing for me anyway. I still done every subject through Irish, although I'm convinced if Biology was going to be important to me I would have done it through english, however im hoping the markers are a bit more lenient(sp?) towards Irish exam papers.

rainbowtrout · 22-06-2010 8:07pm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I just sat my Leaving Cert through Irish, and to be honest I don't think its worth the extra marks. Don't know about other schools, but in my school a lot of the subjects were done from English books and then translated, which made it extremely confusing for me anyway. I still done every subject through Irish, although I'm convinced if Biology was going to be important to me I would have done it through english, however im hoping the markers are a bit more lenient(sp?) towards Irish exam papers.

No, we're not. You get graded the exact same way as those who sat it in English. You either know the stuff or you don't regardless of what language you wrote your answers in.

wayhey · 22-06-2010 8:54pm

Irish is bad enough through Irish, never mind 6 others!!

tubalcain · 27-10-2010 1:26pm

In response to many points made:
As stated previously
You CAN pick individual subjects.
You do not get across the board 10% additional marks
It varies dependant on subject and the original mark obtained
Basically if you achieve less than 75% you get 10% in some subjects, 5% in some and 3% in others and 0% in the rest.

If you achieve more than 75% in the original mark you get a pro rata drop to where you get 0% at a 100% original mark

If you answer questions in a mix of english and irish you get NO additional mark for that exam

Using this system to encourage Irish is not very efficient or effective, the most productive way to improve Irish is to actually teach Irish. Which obviously is already compulsory

By researching previous census results you will see that a remarkable percentage consider themselves fluent, in reality this percentage is in fact quite low, for what is supposedly the first national language. It is notionally , however at present more people living in Ireland are fluent in Polish and nearly as many speak Russian, as this is a common language shared by many former Soviet states when not using their own language

Irish is not dead, but it is receiving an unatural amount of support for a living language. The reasons for it's near demise and apparent shaky ressurection are of not the point of this post.It should not be solely on it's usefulness to learn Irish, but if it were I would recommend learning French, Spanish and Chinese as this would enable you to speak to half the known world. Irish will enable to you to speak to a few individuals spread across the the known world

The fact that someone want to go to UCD to get an engineering place or Trinity maths place or whatever can be usurped by another candidate because they did a subject in Irish is at best unfair and in all likelyhood contrary to equality laws. Something I aim to research further.

What relevance has speaking Irish got in being able to build a bridge or perform heart surgery? Nothing.

As we are now very much a multi-cultural society, like it or not, successful or not we have a situation whereby it is patently unfair on non-irish speakers be they Irish nationals or from some other part of the globe but educated here.

Basically if you wish to learn a language any language that is ok, but do not confuse the artificial insentivisation of gaining extra marks of doing a subject in irish, with a positive stand-alone insentive that will engender a more rounded approach and a wish to learn for the right reasons.

randylonghorn · 27-10-2010 8:49pm

tubalcain wrote: »

The fact that someone want to go to UCD to get an engineering place or Trinity maths place or whatever can be usurped by another candidate because they did a subject in Irish is at best unfair and in all likelyhood contrary to equality laws. Something I aim to research further.

Wouldn't the same argument hold for someone aiming for History in Trinity losing out to someone with extra points from the proposed bonus marks for Hons Maths?

rainbowtrout · 27-10-2010 9:16pm

tubalcain wrote: »

The fact that someone want to go to UCD to get an engineering place or Trinity maths place or whatever can be usurped by another candidate because they did a subject in Irish is at best unfair and in all likelyhood contrary to equality laws. Something I aim to research further.

What relevance has speaking Irish got in being able to build a bridge or perform heart surgery? Nothing.

Not saying I agree with the requirement, but what relevance does speaking English have to performing heart surgery or building a bridge? You have to pass English to get into the course as well.

It doesn't contravene any equality laws.... in reality it probably complies with them considering Irish and English are both official languages of the state.

Now if you had to pass one but not the other that could be a problem...

In the ITs you might consider the system fairer, students are only required to pass Irish or English.

workingstudent · 28-10-2010 8:15pm

we are doing our maths in irish to 'use the system to our advantage' as our teacher likes to say..not much difference we're just going to tick the answering through irish box on the day..not saying beforehand that we are going to be doing it through irish

tubalcain · 28-10-2010 8:50pm

It doesn't contravene any equality laws.... in reality it probably complies with them considering Irish and English are both official languages of the state.

What makes a language an official language, history, usage on a daily basis, saying it is,or just plain wishful thinking
This where the contents don't match the label, reliable figures are not readily available, I do mean reliable, questions in recent the most census tried to obtain proficiency levels of speaking irish, but this is still based on subjective claims. In reality the number of fluent Irish speakers dramatically differs from the statistics gained from replies from individuals.
Some statistics show over 1.5 million people speak Irish, some show that fluent Irish speakers number around 20,000 I would be surprised at either figure being correct, perhaps somewhere in between but nearer the tens of thousands than the million mark
So whilst nominally the official language Irish is far less widespread in it's daily use than some other languages in use in Ireland today. Check out the bill for Irish translators in Irish courts it is remarkably low. I know this has other factors but the bill is less than 5,000 euro
As a test go into 20 shops and ask for your purchases in Irish you can let me know if I am wrong. Do let me know where this takes place as it will not be correct in some areas I have no doubt.

Not saying I agree with the requirement, but what relevance does speaking English have to performing heart surgery or building a bridge? You have to pass English to get into the course as well.

Indeed there you have made my point better than I did.... language has no bearing what so ever, be it English, Irish or Swahili. Obtaining an advantage because of language in a subject that does not rely on a specific language is not logical.

I should say that with the level set at 75% for these bonus marks to apply, that I do not believe it would be worth the hassle if you are not already fluent. If you are achieving 75%, far better to work harder in the original subject.

This scheme to my mind can only really help those pupils who attend gaelscoil get better marks in other subjects

rainbowtrout · 28-10-2010 9:03pm

workingstudent wrote: »

we are doing our maths in irish to 'use the system to our advantage' as our teacher likes to say..not much difference we're just going to tick the answering through irish box on the day..not saying beforehand that we are going to be doing it through irish

Will your exam centre have that many Irish papers though particularly when you're not registered to take the exam through Irish? It doesn't benefit many students, I correct through Irish and students don't gain too many marks from it.

rainbowtrout · 28-10-2010 9:15pm

tubalcain wrote: »

What makes a language an official language, history, usage on a daily basis, saying it is,or just plain wishful thinking
This where the contents don't match the label, reliable figures are not readily available, I do mean reliable, questions in recent the most census tried to obtain proficiency levels of speaking irish, but this is still based on subjective claims. In reality the number of fluent Irish speakers dramatically differs from the statistics gained from replies from individuals.
Some statistics show over 1.5 million people speak Irish, some show that fluent Irish speakers number around 20,000 I would be surprised at either figure being correct, perhaps somewhere in between but nearer the tens of thousands than the million mark
So whilst nominally the official language Irish is far less widespread in it's daily use than some other languages in use in Ireland today. Check out the bill for Irish translators in Irish courts it is remarkably low. I know this has other factors but the bill is less than 5,000 euro
As a test go into 20 shops and ask for your purchases in Irish you can let me know if I am wrong. Do let me know where this takes place as it will not be correct in some areas I have no doubt.

Indeed there you have made my point better than I did.... language has no bearing what so ever, be it English, Irish or Swahili. Obtaining an advantage because of language in a subject that does not rely on a specific language is not logical.

I should say that with the level set at 75% for these bonus marks to apply, that I do not believe it would be worth the hassle if you are not already fluent. If you are achieving 75%, far better to work harder in the original subject.

This scheme to my mind can only really help those pupils who attend gaelscoil get better marks in other subjects

I'm not disputing the fact that hardly anyone speaks it on a daily basis, I was just making the point which you picked up on, that it's just as irrelevant as needing to pass English to enter an Engineering course. Having said that, it is an advantage to show that you can grasp a language at a certain level (regardless of which one it is) as you will have to communicate your ideas to people in the workplace and will be expected to have a decent command of the language in third level to complete your studies. Of course this does make Irish redundant in most cases as only Irish language courses, Primary teaching through Irish and a variety of courses in NUIG are taught through Irish.

In terms of taking exams through Irish, I don't have a problem with students having the option particularly if students have it as their first spoken language (in Gaeltacht areas) or are being taught through Irish, but if that is the case I don't see why they should get bonus marks simply for choosing to do their exams through their chosen language. Why should they get extra marks in Chemistry/History/Accounting etc for sitting their exams in their first language when those sitting them through English cannot? Particularly when the language has no bearing on their ability in the subject in question.

I correct through Irish and as you said, the ones that get above 75% really have nothing to gain from it and the ones who can get 10% of their total mark added on are scoring low enough that it doesn't make a huge difference to their grade. The optimum score to gain from the bonus marks is about 65-70%. An addition of 10% of the total marks in this bracket will give the student a guaranteed 5 extra points and if their marks fall the right way get them 10 extra points.

Eg. a student scoring 74% on a paper marked out of 300 will get 222/300. So 10% of their mark added on = 22. 222+22=244

244/300 = 81%, bringing them from a B3 to B1. Above 75% as you said, it's not worth the hassle.

randylonghorn · 28-10-2010 10:17pm

tubalcain wrote: »

What makes a language an official language, history, usage on a daily basis, saying it is, or just plain wishful thinking

The Constitution.

tubalcain wrote: »

This where the contents don't match the label, reliable figures are not readily available, I do mean reliable, questions in recent the most census tried to obtain proficiency levels of speaking irish, but this is still based on subjective claims. In reality the number of fluent Irish speakers dramatically differs from the statistics gained from replies from individuals.
Some statistics show over 1.5 million people speak Irish, some show that fluent Irish speakers number around 20,000 I would be surprised at either figure being correct, perhaps somewhere in between but nearer the tens of thousands than the million mark

I wouldn't argue with you there, in fairness.

tubalcain wrote: »

So whilst nominally the official language Irish is far less widespread in it's daily use than some other languages in use in Ireland today.

Whether that is accurate or not (and I suspect Polish is the only language which *may* fit your claim), Irish *is* native to this country, none of the others are. The more extreme would probably argue that even English is not native, though given that it is the first language of at least 95% of the population, and has been for a while, I think we have to begin accepting it as 'native', even if a johnny-come-lately.

After all, even Irish / Celtic originally came to our shores from elsewhere, even if it's been spoken in one form or other on this island for 3 - 4 thousand years.

tubalcain wrote: »

Check out the bill for Irish translators in Irish courts it is remarkably low. I know this has other factors but the bill is less than 5,000 euro

I wouldn't take this as a good indicator tbh.

I have plenty of cousins who speak Irish as their first and daily language, but almost all of them have perfect or near-perfect English as well. None of them would be bothered to insist on Irish in court, if they ever ended up there. Normally, it is only those with a very strong political viewpoint who do so ... and some of those would not be native speakers at all!

gaeilgegrinds1 · 29-10-2010 11:15am

Considering three of my classmates are Irish translators I doubt that figure could be anywhere correct. Two working here, one in Brussels. The Shell to Sea Campaign alone has one of them working for months.

Leaving Cert as Gaeilge (Bonus Marks for Irish)

Comments