Fingerprint system that cost €20m lying idle

Run_to_da_hills · 28-11-2010 11:58PM #1

A sophisticated finger print system that was purchased at a cost €20m to the tax payer four years ago is currently lying idle.

Perhaps no harm that such an invasive tool never get off the ground, however this is just another case of wasted money. Who is paying for storage costs?

No doubt these will all end up on the same scrap heap as the defunct electronic voting machines.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fingerprint-system-that-cost-euro20m-lying-idle-2439421.html

Yakult · 29-11-2010 12:43AM

I bet theirs a nice little list of stuff the idiots in power wasted tax payers money on or planned on doing.

*Cough* Luas *cough*

nesf · 29-11-2010 04:56AM

Christ, read the article. It's not being used because a union is disputing that its workers should be doing the work (and from the sound of it is really looking for more money for the work).

This has absolutely no similarities to the E-Voting disaster which was due to machines not being fit for use.

kaiser sauze · 29-11-2010 05:05AM

Unions preventing progress.

SHOCKER!!

Run_to_da_hills · 29-11-2010 08:03AM

nesf wrote: »

Christ, read the article. It's not being used because a union is disputing that its workers should be doing the work (and from the sound of it is really looking for more money for the work).

This has absolutely no similarities to the E-Voting disaster which was due to machines not being fit for use.

This is Ireland, they should have looked into the union problem before they splashed out 30 million. You can be damn sure these will be dated by the time the matter is resolved.

astrofool · 29-11-2010 11:11AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is Ireland, they should have looked into the union problem before they splashed out 30 million. You can be damn sure these will be dated by the time the matter is resolved.

We would still have smaller darts, lamp lighters on the streets and bank time for all new PS workers if that was the case.

The problem is that the unions aren't stood up to on matters like this.

John_C · 29-11-2010 12:07PM

R_H_C_P wrote: »

I bet theirs a nice little list of stuff the idiots in power wasted tax payers money on or planned on doing.

*Cough* Luas *cough*

I find the Luas pretty handy.

markpb · 29-11-2010 12:11PM

John_C wrote: »

I find the Luas pretty handy.

25.4 million passenger trips were taken in 2009, 27.4 million in 2008, and 26 million in 2007. I'd ignore trolling posts like that.

PCPhoto · 29-11-2010 12:20PM

markpb wrote: »

25.4 million passenger trips were taken in 2009, 27.4 million in 2008, and 26 million in 2007. I'd ignore trolling posts like that.

yes - but how many of them paid for their trips ?

apologies for off-topic .... but .... as regards the fingerprint system....what do the Unions want .... a worker to check peoples fingers ???

someone needs to let the unions know that change is a requirement for progress, if the company wishes to be more productive - providing a better system for its customers - at the cost of a job or two.... then work away.

The quicker we (as a nation) grow a backbone and stand up for what is the correct thing to do the better we can deliver on the services that require an upgrade.

before some union rep retorts with "the workers/union are standing up for what is correct" .... first answer - why is it correct to keep someone in a job when there is a more efficient way of getting the job done ?

Why dont the workers/Union propose a different alternative.... if they wish to keep a persons job why dont they all agree to take a hit so X workers can stay on.

EDIT: After reading the article..... in my opinion the excuse is simply one of the reasons why people hate the PS - "its not my job description, I'm not doing it" ..... I remember when I started working as a kid - if someone asked you to do some work.... you did it, if you were asked to come in early/stay late ... you did it (sometimes you were paid - sometimes not....granted it was for the benefit of the company but if the job needed to be done - I dont see why an extra 20-30mins out of my life was going to hurt me.)

senordingdong · 29-11-2010 12:35PM

Sounds like a good idea to me. Despite what the unions think.

Something liek that really needs to get off the ground.

Just look at what they said about the amount of claimants missing dates after that Icelandic voclano.

urbanachiever1 · 02-12-2010 10:07AM

These unions need a good kick up the hole in my opinion. Imagine an employee in any other business refusing to use new technology that improves efficiency. It's blatant greed. According to the reports, the union members are refusing to do the job because it is a job that only Gardai are qualified to do. Then, on the other hand, they say they will after all do the job if they are paid more. I hope the IMF/ECB have stipulated that the Croke Park agreement is to be shredded.

Dempo1 · 02-12-2010 10:12AM

Just heard about this on the PK show, Its a complete disgrace and Blair Horan for the public service union is on defending his members who apparently were not covered legally to operate this machine. Now we on to public service employees being permitted to take a paid HALF DAY SHOPPING LEAVE. For **** sake when is someone going to say enough is enough!

the groutch · 02-12-2010 10:13AM

markpb wrote: »

25.4 million passenger trips were taken in 2009, 27.4 million in 2008, and 26 million in 2007. I'd ignore trolling posts like that.

and how many cars did it take off the road?

20Cent · 02-12-2010 10:16AM

Civilians doing jobs garda should do!!
Want office workers out arresting people next?
Fair play to them for refusing to use it.

Funny how this story just comes out now.

Spudmonkey · 02-12-2010 10:16AM

This is farcical. On a regular basis we have to use equipment which is new to us and if we were to ask for pay increases in order to do this, we would be giving our marching orders.

The unions are living in a different world and need to be pulled up on this. It is indefensible. There are plenty of people on the dole well capable of doing these jobs. If these people are making outrageous claims, fire them, bring in someone willing to do the job and deliver some value for money for a change.

Jumpy · 02-12-2010 10:17AM

the groutch wrote: »

and how many cars did it take off the road?

Well its definitely taken at least one bus off the road.

urbanachiever1 · 02-12-2010 10:23AM

20Cent wrote: »

Civilians doing jobs garda should do!!
Want office workers out arresting people next?

These people were employed specifically to do clerical work leaving Gardai to other work. Get on with it or get out.

20Cent · 02-12-2010 10:25AM

urbanachiever1 wrote: »

These people were employed specifically to do clerical work leaving Gardai to other work. Get on with it or get out.

Fingerprinting people is not clerical work.

hardCopy · 02-12-2010 10:25AM

20Cent wrote: »

Civilians doing jobs garda should do!!
Want office workers out arresting people next?
Fair play to them for refusing to use it.

Funny how this story just comes out now.

Why should a Garda do it?

Unless it involves investigations or arrests it should be done by civilians.

Massive civilianisation is required within AGS if we want to see more Gardaí on the street.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 10:29AM

20Cent wrote: »

Civilians doing jobs garda should do!!
Want office workers out arresting people next?
Fair play to them for refusing to use it.

Funny how this story just comes out now.

There is nothing wrong with civilians taking fingerprints, why does it require a member of AGS to do it? Its a simple procedure. The Gardai have civilians working in all sorts of posts doing clerical work and giving members more time doing front line policing. Civilians within the gardai is miles behind the levels in every other country in Europe.

Typical of the CPSU ( of which I am a member ), absolute joke of a union.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 10:30AM

20Cent wrote: »

Fingerprinting people is not clerical work.

What is clerical work? Sharpening pencils? Using the photocopier? I am a clerical worker and would have no problem doing it.

vintac34 · 02-12-2010 10:39AM

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

What is clerical work? Sharpening pencils? Using the photocopier? I am a clerical worker and would have no problem doing it.

We need more like you in the Public service!

20Cent · 02-12-2010 10:44AM

hardCopy wrote: »

Why should a Garda do it?

Unless it involves investigations or arrests it should be done by civilians.

Massive civilianisation is required within AGS if we want to see more Gardaí on the street.

What if one of these guys gets violent?
Is Joe who is paid to do clerical work also supposed to hold him down and take his prints? Are they legally entitled to do a job done by the garda? Is this included in the terms of their employment? Maybe they also have ethical reasons for not wanting to fingerprint people. What about the civil liberties of the immigrant? Pretty 1984 fingerprinting people, whats next union members?
Blame whoever bought the machine and expected clerical officers to use it not the people themselves.

Great story, anti-PS, anti-immigration and anti-SW all in one go. The greedy civil servant meme. This and the ESB story the public are being played like a piano.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 10:52AM

vintac34 wrote: »

We need more like you in the Public service!

There are plenty more like me in the public service, unfortunately we tend to drown in the mediocrity of the upper levels.

hardCopy · 02-12-2010 10:59AM

20Cent wrote: »

What if one of these guys gets violent?
Is Joe who is paid to do clerical work also supposed to hold him down and take his prints? Are they legally entitled to do a job done by the garda? Is this included in the terms of their employment? Maybe they also have ethical reasons for not wanting to fingerprint people. What about the civil liberties of the immigrant? Pretty 1984 fingerprinting people, whats next union members?
Blame whoever bought the machine and expected clerical officers to use it not the people themselves.

Great story, anti-PS, anti-immigration and anti-SW all in one go. The greedy civil servant meme. This and the ESB story the public are being played like a piano.

Eh, call a Garda if he gets violent.

What if a bus passenger gets violent? Should Gardaí drive the buses to?

This isn't in the papers because of some media conspiracy, it's in the papers because an uncooperative union have created this situation.

20Cent · 02-12-2010 11:02AM

hardCopy wrote: »

Eh, call a Garda if he gets violent.

What if a bus passenger gets violent? Should Gardaí drive the buses to?

This isn't in the papers because of some media conspiracy, it's in the papers because an uncooperative union have created this situation.

It has been an issue since 2006, suddenly hits the papers now. ESB the same if not longer. Put 2 and 2 together.

Why should a guy working in an office have to worry about being attacked? Surely that would warrant a pay increase at least?

hardCopy · 02-12-2010 11:06AM

20Cent wrote: »

It has been an issue since 2006, suddenly hits the papers now. ESB the same if not longer. Put 2 and 2 together.

Why should a guy working in an office have to worry about being attacked? Surely that would warrant a pay increase at least?

Why would he be attacked? There's no reason to force someone to give a fingerprint, if the immigrant doesn't cooperate just walk out of the room/cubicle/window and refuse to issue his visa.

Why should he get to keep his job when he refuses to do what he's told. What use is he?

urbanachiever1 · 02-12-2010 11:06AM

20Cent wrote: »

What if one of these guys gets violent?
Is Joe who is paid to do clerical work also supposed to hold him down and take his prints? Are they legally entitled to do a job done by the garda? Is this included in the terms of their employment? Maybe they also have ethical reasons for not wanting to fingerprint people. What about the civil liberties of the immigrant? Pretty 1984 fingerprinting people, whats next union members?
Blame whoever bought the machine and expected clerical officers to use it not the people themselves.

Read the article. They seem to have no problem doing the job if they get paid more so I think your arguments about civil liberties can go out the window. i am unemployed and I do voluntary work with refugees. I can safely say that I and they would have no problem having our fingerprints taken if it weeds out fraudulent claims. Also, "a similar system has been in operation by other civil servants working for the Department of Justice at its Naturalisation and Immigration Service". This is not an attack on all public servants so please leave that out.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 11:10AM

20Cent wrote: »

It has been an issue since 2006, suddenly hits the papers now. ESB the same if not longer. Put 2 and 2 together.

Why should a guy working in an office have to worry about being attacked? Surely that would warrant a pay increase at least?

You are more likely to be attacked in a Social Welfare office, no pay rises there. The immigrants have to go the GNIB anyway to get their card, I don't see what the issue is here. It will also prevent criminals wanted in other jurisdictions hiding away here under a GNIB card. Very few immigrants looking for their GNIB card are violent. You will get attacked in other places of work more frequently. Nobody is asking them to process criminals in a Garda station. They are being asked to fingerprint people wishing to enter the country legally.

gav86 · 02-12-2010 11:14AM

Its a disgrace.

donaghs · 02-12-2010 11:35AM

Reminds me of friend who was on a job contracted to implement some new software in Public Service. The unions were demanding more pay in order to use the newer Windows 95/98/NT style interface, so instead it was decided it would be easier to re-jig the front-end with an old-style Windows 3.1 interface.

As earlier poster mentioned, this isnt about safety or legal issues, its about more pay or promotions (same thing), in exchange for using new technology.

Point is, how can any progress take place with that attitude? Amazing they even have any computers, or biros for that matter.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 11:42AM

donaghs wrote: »

Reminds me of friend who was on a job contracted to implement some new software in Public Service. The unions were demanding more pay in order to use the newer Windows 95/98/NT style interface, so instead it was decided it would be easier to re-jig the front-end with an old-style Windows 3.1 interface.

As earlier poster mentioned, this isnt about safety or legal issues, its about more pay or promotions (same thing), in exchange for using new technology.

Point is, how can any progress take place with that attitude? Amazing they even have any computers, or biros for that matter.

What I would give for them to give me a new computer interface rather then the ropey old xp professional I now use. No need to pay me anything extra to use it!!

Gunmonkey · 02-12-2010 12:15PM

donaghs wrote: »

Point is, how can any progress take place with that attitude? Amazing they even have any computers, or biros for that matter.

Maybe they want to revert to a system where if you hand them a paper they just bash a rock on it several times.

Its pure greed, simply put. How does a pay increase change the fact that "only a Garda can take figer-prints"? Does the increase pay level grant them the powers of a Garda?

Its dangerous for them if the person they are printing turns violent!! They are printing people trying to apply for visas, not questioning hardened serial killers. You would face more violent people in the queue at a takeaway late at night, never seen "hazard pay"for the workers there!

And 20Cent, take your tinfoil-hat 1984 nonsense to the Conspiracy forum, if it was up to me everybody on this island would be printed and stored. The benefits for medicinal and emergency work far outweighs the ramblings of "oh they have my prints, they now control me......." nuts.

johnnyskeleton · 02-12-2010 02:50PM

hardCopy wrote: »

Why should a Garda do it?

Unless it involves investigations or arrests it should be done by civilians.

Massive civilianisation is required within AGS if we want to see more Gardaí on the street.

Equally, what is the point of paying civilians to do a garda's job if we pay the civilian almost as much to do it as we would the garda?

markpb · 02-12-2010 02:52PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Equally, what is the point of paying civilians to do a garda's job if we pay the civilian almost as much to do it as we would the garda?

Because we wouldn't incur the expense of putting those civilians through Garda training, they wouldn't take up space in training that could be used by Gardai who will be put on the street and because they won't count towards the Gardai maximum headcount numbers.

HarryPotter41 · 02-12-2010 02:56PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Equally, what is the point of paying civilians to do a garda's job if we pay the civilian almost as much to do it as we would the garda?

And when did Clerical Officer staff in the AGS begin to be paid at Garda levels?

hardCopy · 02-12-2010 05:16PM

markpb wrote: »

Because we wouldn't incur the expense of putting those civilians through Garda training, they wouldn't take up space in training that could be used by Gardai who will be put on the street and because they won't count towards the Gardai maximum headcount numbers.

Garda headcount is due to be reduced over the 4 year plan, if we want to maintain/improve on current service levels we need more civilians working for AGS

vintac34 · 02-12-2010 05:32PM

Privatize the system,put it out on fixed term renewable contract.

Lots of firms out there crying out for work!

Get it done more efficiently and at a fraction of the cost,could fit in nicely with issue of passports![not easy to forget,remember the queues]

Unions impeding progress and protecting wasters.....glad i dont have to deal with them any more!!!!!!

cyclopath2001 · 02-12-2010 06:32PM

vintac34 wrote: »

Unions impeding progress and protecting wasters.....glad i dont have to deal with them any more!!!!!!

I contacted a leading online grocer 'Customer Support' today, to change my delivery address...could not do it, that's someone else's job, they only change delivery times. Who does the address change? 'Tech Support'....they would not do it....'computer says no'.

niallers1 · 02-12-2010 08:44PM

Privatise/outsource all of these functions..No need for it to be done by a public sector employee

Run_to_da_hills · 02-12-2010 10:12PM

gav86 wrote: »

Its a disgrace.

It makes me sick when I hear people in the civil service grumbling about wanting pay rises when others in the private sector are booted out of their homes and loosing their cars because of layoffs.

I have no time for finger print scanners or IMF but it will eventually be these guys that will kick all the lazy crows out of the civil service chimney and rightly so.

Essexboy · 02-12-2010 11:47PM

How many similar - unpublicised -cases are there?

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/migration/anger-as-hse-relocates-gift-scanner-to-private-clinic-668563.html

rasper · 03-12-2010 04:19PM

I wouldnt regard myself as being anti-union but this tripe should have been put to bed the moment it started only for our corrupt weak FF/PD government, as soon as this was mentioned and everytime this the government should have siezed the opportunity to outsource the service.
Our government isnt capable of running services so why not let someone else run them cheaper and better

waxon-waxoff · 03-12-2010 04:32PM

If this machine was being used it would easily pay for itself by reducing social welfare fraud, in fact get more of them to fingerprint anybody claiming state benefits. If you are honest you have nothing to fear.

Speaking of unions, clocks went forward by one hour at Halloween and public servants were told not to change them as that was job of somebody from the OPW!

whippet · 03-12-2010 08:01PM

This is all a pointless debate .. When we have to start giving weekly expenditure costs to the boys in theIMF nonsense like this will be uncovered on a daily basis.

The IMF will hopefully get a handle on it and Jack o'connor and his buddies can march up and down o'connell street every day as they will have feck all else to do ..... And while the rest of us can get try and get on with getting this country working again..

jmayo · 03-02-2012 04:49PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is Ireland, they should have looked into the union problem before they splashed out 30 million. You can be damn sure these will be dated by the time the matter is resolved.

And it still hasn't been resolved well over a year since this last post. :rolleyes:

I would just like to resurrect this thread since it is back in the media again and the union is still preventing the system going into operation.

Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan announced that civilian staff at the immigration offices on Burgh Quay have been informed that disciplinary action will be taken if they do not implement a new fingerprinting system for immigrants.

The committee also heard that civilian staff at the immigration offices on Burgh Quay have been informed that disciplinary action will be taken if they do not implement a new fingerprinting system for immigrants.

The system was introduced a number of years ago, but has not been implemented there owing to industrial action at the Immigration Bureau.

The staff are members of the Civil Public and Services Union and have refused to operate the system on the grounds that it is a garda function.

Mr Callinan said it was disappointing that the staff did not engage but it was hoped that negotiations would resolve the matter.

Last night I had to listen to some member of the union defend this sh**, claiming that they got legal advice, wait for it, 12 months ago that the job should be done by members of AGS.

When is someone going to start kicking ar**es.
We spend money on technology and then it's introduction is held up by a bunch of neanderthals. who of course would suddenly change their mind if the right compensation formula was arrived at.

Why are they having negotiations ?

There should be no negotiations.
Job roles change and this matter is just a change of function for someone thus being non negotiational, like it would for most people that have to work in the real world.

You either do your job or get to fook out and let someone else have it.

I had hoped a FG government would take on the unions, but I suppose being saddled with the likes of Gilmore and co it is very unlikely.
The unions in this country need to be destroyed before they destroy what is left of the country.

spank_inferno · 03-02-2012 05:30PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Unions preventing progress.

SHOCKER!!

I am Jacks complete lack of surprise.

The above post sums it up perfectly.

nice_guy80 · 03-02-2012 08:04PM

spank_inferno wrote: »

I am Jacks complete lack of surprise.

The above post sums it up perfectly.

unions protecting longer serving workers!!!

Shocker!!

the younger workers just want to work. older workers will nit pick over every little thing

it is rampant in the public sector

MysticalRain · 03-02-2012 09:26PM

I am generally pro-union myself, but the antics of unions in the Irish public service is enough to turn anybody into a raving, right-wing Thatcherite.

Fingerprint system that cost €20m lying idle

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