Cronin to Leinster,Keatley and Carr in talks with clubs

LeeroyJones · 17-12-2010 04:37PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Its your opinion that all these players are deemed better than contemporary alternatives in Ireland.

Where certain players actually play might not be the reason they are outside the national coaching team's selection for squad. There are other reasons too such as how they are seen, their development, their attitude to the squad and systems in place, their behaviour.

Granted it is opinion, and the reason I opted not to mention the ones mentioned above is because there are clearly some other options for those individual positions.
The 'opinion' argument is always going to be there. However, at the same time I believe it would be truely naive to think that Casey or Brennan were seen as inferior performers to those of the same positions over the last decade in Ireland, rather they were ignored on the basis of where they were plying their trade.

I actually agree with a home-based policy for the sake of our provinces and national side. Otherwise we could have ourselves with 4 weak provinces and our international players scattered around different standards of rugby with some rotting on the bench and others being overplayed.

porterbelly · 17-12-2010 04:42PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Its your opinion that all these players are deemed better than contemporary alternatives in Ireland.

Where certain players actually play might not be the reason they are outside the national coaching team's selection for squad. There are other reasons too such as how they are seen, their development, their attitude to the squad and systems in place, their behaviour.

I'm not saying they're better than what's there, I'm saying they deserve an opportunity to show what they can do. Northampton performed admirably in the Heineken Cup last season and are doing so again this season, and the three lads were to the fore. Downey would be a different option at 12, we have no option at 12 that can straighten and bash it up the middle from time to time and consistently get over the gainline and give the forwards a target, Downey provides that. Neil Best has been known to be a pup in the past but he was playing very well over the past couple of seasons and bnever got a look in. His chance is gone now. Roger Wilson is the unsung hero of the Northampton pack and with no established out and no8 behind Heaslip, Wilson would have given us that option. Chris Henry is playing at 7 all season so he isn't it. We had a situation during the summer when we were down alot of back row forwards and ended up having to call up Rhys Ruddock from the u20s, and had Niall Ronan and Henry in the back row. This shows where English based players are in Declan Kidney's thinking and if Fionn Carr was to move to England he'd be doing hsi international chances no good.

jolley123 · 17-12-2010 04:49PM

porterbelly wrote: »

Downey would be a different option at 12, we have no option at 12 that can straighten and bash it up the middle from time to time and consistently get over the gainline and give the forwards a target, Downey provides that. Roger Wilson is the unsung hero of the Northampton pack and with no established out and no8 behind Heaslip, Wilson would have given us that option.

Really, because I thought Darcy's strength was that he consistently gets over the gainline. He always breaks through the first tackler. Sure Downey is good, but he is simply a premiership player and does not offer enough to the international team. He's a big lad who tackles well and crashes up. Darce can crash it up and has on many occasions and as we are seeing now, he is one of the best tacklers on the team.

As for Wilson, I think having Heaslip and Leamy is good enough reason for him being left out. Sure there was that time during the Summer when we could have used him, but I think it was more appropriate to call up Ruddock who has a future.

JustinDee · 18-12-2010 12:08AM

LeeroyJones wrote: »

However, at the same time I believe it would be truely naive to think that Casey or Brennan were seen as inferior performers to those of the same positions over the last decade in Ireland, rather they were ignored on the basis of where they were plying their trade

Whats "naive" to have Eric Miller, Andy Ward or Simon Easterby ahead of Trevor Brennan, for example? (two of these players as you know were based outside Ireland, by the way). All good players too worthy starts for the national team.
I don't agree with your presumptions.

danthefan · 18-12-2010 12:11AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Whats "naive" to have Eric Miller, Andy Ward or Simon Easterby ahead of Trevor Brennan, for example? (two of these players as you know were based outside Ireland, by the way). All good players too worthy starts for the national team.
I don't agree with your presumptions.

Easterby was based outside Ireland because the PAG wouldn't let Leinster sign him.

JustinDee · 18-12-2010 12:25AM

danthefan wrote: »

Easterby was based outside Ireland because the PAG wouldn't let Leinster sign him.

I wouldn't know about that.
He was, however, still selected while playing outside the country right until his retirement from international rugby.

sock puppet · 18-12-2010 12:36AM

Reddan couldn't even get ahead of Boss when he was at Wasps. Though that could have been just because of EOS. Then he started getting picked after he went on the slide

irishbucsfan · 18-12-2010 12:49AM

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Granted it is opinion, and the reason I opted not to mention the ones mentioned above is because there are clearly some other options for those individual positions.
The 'opinion' argument is always going to be there. However, at the same time I believe it would be truely naive to think that Casey or Brennan were seen as inferior performers to those of the same positions over the last decade in Ireland, rather they were ignored on the basis of where they were plying their trade.

I actually agree with a home-based policy for the sake of our provinces and national side. Otherwise we could have ourselves with 4 weak provinces and our international players scattered around different standards of rugby with some rotting on the bench and others being overplayed.

Casey is not/never was as good as Malcolm O'Kelly, Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell or Leo Cullen.

His phantom-talent is a myth amongst Irish rugby fans who don't watch him play in the premiership and therefore don't see his lack of work-rate and clumsiness. Great leader though.

thehighground · 18-12-2010 02:01AM

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Granted it is opinion, and the reason I opted not to mention the ones mentioned above is because there are clearly some other options for those individual positions.
The 'opinion' argument is always going to be there. However, at the same time I believe it would be truely naive to think that Casey or Brennan were seen as inferior performers to those of the same positions over the last decade in Ireland, rather they were ignored on the basis of where they were plying their trade.

I actually agree with a home-based policy for the sake of our provinces and national side. Otherwise we could have ourselves with 4 weak provinces and our international players scattered around different standards of rugby with some rotting on the bench and others being overplayed.

So how did Simon Easterby get a game?

profitius · 18-12-2010 11:11PM

[QUOTE='[Jackass]
I've gone off Keatley a lot over the last year, Munster can have him, he'll never make it, and Sexton really is light years ahead of him. As i said in another thread, I wouldn't turn Cronin down, but I'd prefer to stick with Strauss and give JHW his shot and as for Carr, given the latest injury crisis, it's at times like this you think how great it would be to have him back in the squad...I wouldn't mind bringing him back and sending Kearney jr west..[/QUOTE]

People wrote off Sexton too.

Warwick improved a lot when he came to Munster. Keatley could only improve when playing with higher quality players.

profitius · 18-12-2010 11:17PM

porterbelly wrote: »

The problem for Connacht is that we can only gop backwards losing these players. The provinces have given a commitment to send players our way, but who are we going to get? AIL players more than likely who are nowhere near the calibre of players who left. Shane Monahan an Darragh Fanning came this year after playing in the AIL and they're very raw and need time. We can't afford that if we lose our best players, we need ready made replacements who are just as good and we haven't a notion of getting any. I said at the time of the announcement that the other provinces would help us out, that they were only paying lipservice and hadn't a notion. Elwood needs to fight tooth and nail to keep these lads becuase if not we're going absoloutely nowhere, and the commitment from the IRFU to help us move forward goes out the window.

What if Connacht got about 7 young players with potential? They lose 3 or 4 and get 7 or 8 back. It'd mean they'd have a stronger squad and some of these players would want to stay with Connacht eventually.

Connacht gets players from Munster/Leinster and in return Munster/Leinster gets to choose the cream of them. I think thats a fair system.

ambid · 19-12-2010 12:25AM

It'll be really interesting if Connacht can sign some of the quality players who are not getting a game for their provinces, especially in a world cup year when resources of the other provinces will be stretched.

I'd love to see them sign players like Niall O'Connor and Ian McKinley to replace Keatley. Both are very good players, but Ulster and Leinster have so many other good options in that position.

Kevin McLaughlin as a short term loan from January to the summer would seem ideal as he's unlikely to get a lot of matches with Leinster to get his match fitness up, given how well the current back row are playing.

I'd also love to see them sign Ian Nagle from Munster. Against Australia he seemed ready for Magners level but isn't close to getting a game.

I guess Dave Kearney, Niall Morris or Munster's Barry Murphy would strengthen the Connacht back line, but they already have good backs coming through. I'd hate to see Conway leave the RDS, even short term.

Toner can't go as we need at least three good second rows. Ed O'Donoghue might be an option as I imagine he's unlikely to get a game for Leinster when everybody is fit, and he's a decent player.

Obviously Connacht can't put out a team of kids as they would struggle, but there are plenty of quality players in their early and mid twenties not getting a game for their provinces who could strengthen Connacht and therefore Irish rugby.

I'd be really interested in the views of forum members who know more than I do about second string players.

porterbelly · 19-12-2010 02:09AM

ambid wrote: »

It'll be really interesting if Connacht can sign some of the quality players who are not getting a game for their provinces, especially in a world cup year when resources of the other provinces will be stretched.

I'd love to see them sign players like Niall O'Connor and Ian McKinley to replace Keatley. Both are very good players, but Ulster and Leinster have so many other good options in that position.

Kevin McLaughlin as a short term loan from January to the summer would seem ideal as he's unlikely to get a lot of matches with Leinster to get his match fitness up, given how well the current back row are playing.

I'd also love to see them sign Ian Nagle from Munster. Against Australia he seemed ready for Magners level but isn't close to getting a game.

I guess Dave Kearney, Niall Morris or Munster's Barry Murphy would strengthen the Connacht back line, but they already have good backs coming through. I'd hate to see Conway leave the RDS, even short term.

Toner can't go as we need at least three good second rows. Ed O'Donoghue might be an option as I imagine he's unlikely to get a game for Leinster when everybody is fit, and he's a decent player.

Obviously Connacht can't put out a team of kids as they would struggle, but there are plenty of quality players in their early and mid twenties not getting a game for their provinces who could strengthen Connacht and therefore Irish rugby.

I'd be really interested in the views of forum members who know more than I do about second string players.

I had thought about the prospect of McLaughlin as well, either him or Rhys Ruddock, depending on which Leinster feel they could do without. At the end of the day, Leinster have Heaslip, SOB, Jennings, Dominic Ryan, then comes McLaughlin and Ruddock in the pecking order. One of these will see very few games, and factor in that Nathan Hines can play 6 and Paul Ryan is there along with Jordi Murphy come through. It would make sense for both the player and the provinces if McLaughlin/Ruddock moved to Connacht for a year.

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:01AM

Don't really understand how McLaughlin is below Ryan in the pecking order. True, he will have to fight back for his place , but he is well capable of doing so. Let's not forget how good he is. Last year he was called up to the Ireland squad during the six nations and he played very well. I'm not saying he won't go to Connacht, but if he does go, it won't be because he can't get ahead of Ryan. He offers a lot more than Ryan does, like experience, line out option and he is a specialised 6.

Lawstudent1 · 19-12-2010 02:50PM

jolley123 wrote: »

Don't really understand how McLaughlin is below Ryan in the pecking order. True, he will have to fight back for his place , but he is well capable of doing so. Let's not forget how good he is. Last year he was called up to the Ireland squad during the six nations and he played very well. I'm not saying he won't go to Connacht, but if he does go, it won't be because he can't get ahead of Ryan. He offers a lot more than Ryan does, like experience, line out option and he is a specialised 6.

People forgot very quickly. McLaughlin was the most in form 6 in the country when he was fit. Hes an excellent line out option, great carrier and was excellent on the ground. He was considered ahead of O'Brien and Jennings at one point. When O'Brien was playing too good to ignore much more longer it was Jennings not McLaughlin who made way. I believe he'll jump straight ahead of Ryan when hes fit. I think Munster should have done everything to sign McLaughlin especially with Quinlan coming to the end of his career. McLaughlin's work ethic and attitude on the pitch would be a perfect sync down in Munster. Leinster however have to give up someone in the backrow. Its unfair when the likes of Munster have key backrow players in their mid 30s and Connacht are trying to build a competitive squad for Leinster to hold onto class backrowers when they will rarely be used.
Leinster have Heaslip, Jennings, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Dominc Ryan, Rhys Ruddock on their books and all of them are or are going to be international players. I think Leinster have to let go of one of them, its unfair to keep them all. The question is Rhys Ruddock or Dominic Ryan - Dominic Ryan is ahead right now but I've seen Rhys Ruddock play games where I am in awe at the level he is at at such a young age. I don't think its over the top to say that both are capable of going on to be not just international class but world class backrowers.
If the IRFU are in charge of the provinces then its about time Leinster are forced to give up some of their youth products. Its really gotten to the stage where Leinster simply don't have space for them. I would love to see someone like O'Malley, McLaughlin or Fergus McFadden coming down to Munster. I think Rhys Ruddock or Ryan could learn a lot from getting game time down in Connacht.

danthefan · 19-12-2010 02:55PM

McLaughlin to Connacht.

No.

19-12-2010 02:58PM

The three lads are leaving its confirmed by Eric Elwood below as well as some bad injury news. Tough weekend for Connacht to have all three leave at once but I think all Connacht supporters will wish the three lads well. By moving to Connacht they made a statement to young players that they could advance their careers out west and they've given us three good years.

Hopefully we have lined up some quality to replace them. Hopefully young players seeing the likes of Fionn Carr who wasn't even offered a development contract at Leinster before he went to Connacht return to Leinster will give them encourage them to join Connacht, similarly with Cronin who was 4th choice at Munster when he left and now has 7 Irish caps under his belt, Keatley has learned an awful lot as well and will develop further at Munster.

Hopefully they can deliver some more big performances before they leave.

Connacht suffer multiple blows
By BRENDAN FANNING

Sunday December 19 2010
The imminent departure of star players Sean Cronin, Ian Keatley and Fionn Carr to other Irish provinces, and the injuries sustained by captain John Muldoon and back-row colleague Johnny O'Connor, are far bigger setbacks to Connacht than their exit from the Amlin Challenge Cup at the hands of Harlequins on Friday night.
It's expected that Leinster will pick up both Carr and Cronin, while Keatley will move south to Munster to compensate for the loss of Paul Warwick to Stade Francais next season.
While the departure of the three players, who moved west because they couldn't get a look in elsewhere in Ireland, was expected, coming on the back of Muldoon's injury -- and that of O'Connor -- makes for a very costly week for coach Eric Elwood.
Muldoon has broken the same arm that cut short his Ireland tour of New Zealand last June when he was only minutes into his debut.
And O'Connor, who had only just returned from a lengthy back injury, is to have a scan today after suffering further damage to it on Friday night. It is understood the Muldoon injury is not as serious as the original, which required surgery.
"Coming on top of the lads leaving it's been a hard week," Elwood said yesterday. "In fairness they came into us during the week and informed us that they would be moving on at the end of the season and that they were talking to other clubs. And given that it's a World Cup season we're coming into we were always going to be an easier target from clubs looking to fill gaps in their squads.
"We always knew these things could happen. If clubs are coming in looking for them then obviously the players are doing well and we must be doing something right. So we always knew that would be the case. But on the other hand it's disappointing because we had hoped to hang on to them for another while."
Connacht's defeat by Harlequins ends their interest in Europe and they have Munster coming to the Sportsground in the Magners League on St Stephen's Day.

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:09PM

Agree 100%. Problem is, I'm sure none of them want to go. Not to put a bad light on the other provinces, but Ruddock/Ryan/McLaughlin won't want to leave Leinster. The club's in really good form and it is the club they aspired to play at from a young age. But, someone has to go. It's only right on the bigger scale of things.

WeeBushy · 19-12-2010 03:09PM

We are going to have ludicrous competition in the back 3: Kearney, Nacewa, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Conway, and now McFadden and Carr.

Something has got to give though, someone must be leaving, or maybe Shaggy retiring, but he's got another 2 years in him I'd say.

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:11PM

I'm actually annoyed that Carr is going to Leinster. I don't really want him. We are building a wing in Conway and I can see this signing as a set-back in his development.

Actually, considering he isn't coming till next season, I'm sure Conway will have got more gametime. So it will be Fitzy/Horgan/Carr/Conway. Christ, Leinster are getting some serious depth.

irishbucsfan · 19-12-2010 03:16PM

Connacht don't have a hope of getting KMcL, Ryan (x2), Ruddock or any of the other players getting any first team action at Leinster.

The only forwards I could see them getting would be Stephen Keogh and maybe Trevor Hogan. Keogh would be a class act for Connacht.

Can't see Dave Kearney going either. I'd imagine Niall Morris would be more likely.

If Connacht were to take Hogan, Keogh, Sheridan, McKinley and Morris from Leinster this season, they should be very very happy with that, some great players there

Would Billy Holland leave Munster?

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:23PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Connacht don't have a hope of getting KMcL, Ryan (x2), Ruddock or any of the other players getting any first team action at Leinster.

When you say Ryan(x2), do you mean Dom and Paul or Dom and Donncha?

irishbucsfan · 19-12-2010 03:26PM

jolley123 wrote: »

When you say Ryan(x2), do you mean Dom and Paul or Dom and Donncha?

Dom and Paul

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:29PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Dom and Paul

You think Paul will be getting gametime when he's back from injury? I hope you're right. I would have thought Schmidt would just shift either Ruddock or Ryan to 8. I wouldn't think it would be out of the question for Paul to go to Connacht.

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 03:35PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Connacht don't have a hope of getting KMcL, Ryan (x2), Ruddock or any of the other players getting any first team action at Leinster.

The only forwards I could see them getting would be Stephen Keogh and maybe Trevor Hogan. Keogh would be a class act for Connacht.

Can't see Dave Kearney going either. I'd imagine Niall Morris would be more likely.

If Connacht were to take Hogan, Keogh, Sheridan, McKinley and Morris from Leinster this season, they should be very very happy with that, some great players there

Would Billy Holland leave Munster?

Has Ezra Taylor been playing at all or is he still injured? Connacht really needed him to make the same impact that Naoupu did. If both Quinny and Wallace retire at the end of this season then I doubt any backrows (the likes of Butler for example) will move from Munster, they will be needed to replace the OAPs.

If Michael Swift (33 now I think) leaves Holland would be a great replacement. He's 25 now and hasn't broken into the Munster team and Ian Nagle and Dave O'Callaghan are right behind him so Munster could afford to let him go. He's been a very good player when I've seen him in the ML and would do very well out west IMO.

It's important though for the province (and I would think supporters too) that Connacht doesn't become the orphanage for Munster/Leinster/Ulster rejects. It's vital that local lads like O'Halloran, McKeon and Griffin get into the side. As a Munster supporter, I like seeing players from Munster in the team (no disrespect to Irish players not from Munster obviously).

If an Irish province wins a European comp, Connacht make the Heineken. I then think fringe players will take Connacht's offer of gametime seriously.

From a Munster perspective, I'm not happy that Warwick is leaving but at least he's being replaced by an IQ player that has shown glimpses of talent. Will mean that Jones becomes our FB barring another injury.

Cronin is a huge loss and I hope they replace him with an IQ player. Denis Fogarty is definitely surplus to requirements at Munster but he couldn't throw in a J5 match not to mind for Connacht. Kyriacou at Ulster maybe? He's third choice hooker for them atm.

jolley123 · 19-12-2010 03:52PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

If an Irish province wins a European comp, Connacht make the Heineken. I then think fringe players will take Connacht's offer of gametime seriously.QUOTE]

So if an irish team wins the Hcup, Connacht will be in the Heineiken? How come that didn't happen in 2009?

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 03:58PM

jolley123 wrote: »

So if an irish team wins the Hcup, Connacht will be in the Heineiken? How come that didn't happen in 2009?

They changed the rules after that season.

If you recall before Connacht needed to finish above a Welsh side in the ML to qualify for the Heineken, that's gone now.

Lawstudent1 · 19-12-2010 03:58PM

That is just taking the piss. Leinster already have the best performing hooker in the country and now they're getting Cronin as well! Leinster have an obscene amount of winger options its a joke that they're getting Carr as well now. Both players should have stayed in Connacht or Carr should have gone to Munster where he'd be guaranteed his game.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 19-12-2010 03:58PM

I can't see Cronin going to Leinster unless Kidney has been doing a bit of meddling. He said a few months ago that he plans on going back to Munster, but Munster have too many quality Hookers. Varley has been the biggest surprise of the season and should be the Irish first choice Hooker in the 6nations, it will be at least very close between him and Cronin. Fla is undeniably the best Hooker in the country when fit, but I have my doubt that he will get back to full fitness. Sherry is a fantastic prospect for the future and Fogarty gets a raw deal, he would propably be 2nd choice for the rest of the provinces but he should be 4th choice at Munster.

Competition for places in Munster will be hard but I don't want to see Cronin come up against us. He could burn the majority of out internationals over the first 10meters.

Leinster have alot of backrows coming through, but Munster wouldn't look too bad for Wally's and Quinny's retirements, although Wallace still has a season or two in him; He is still Ireland's strongest ball carrier but he has lost some of his pace. O'Mahony and Butler are great prospects and there are another few there that will most likely make it. Munster's young players are probably a year or two too young to replace the legends yet though.

thomond2006 · 19-12-2010 03:59PM

It just hit me that Carr moving to Leinster is a strange move.

I would have thought a move to Munster would make more sense now that the 15 jersey is up for grabs with a possible wing berth available.

Christ jebus Leinster will have some squad next year.

Cronin to Leinster,Keatley and Carr in talks with clubs

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