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Muslim man fined for burning poppy on Armistice Day...

  • 08-03-2011 10:54AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭


    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Poppy-Burning-Emdadur-Choudhury-Fined-After-Armistice-Day-Incident/Article/201103115947183?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15947183_Poppy_Burning%3A_Emdadur_Choudhury_Fined_After_Armistice_Day_Incident




    A Muslim extremist has been fined £50 for burning poppies and chanting hate slogans on Armistice Day.

    :: The above video footage has been muted.

    Emdadur Choudhury, 26, was part of a demonstration by members of Muslims Against Crusaders who protested at the end of a march celebrating the UK's armed forces.

    The group chanted through a two-minute silence with slogans such as: "British soldiers, burn in hell."

    Choudhury waved a protest flag and then set fire to two large plastic poppies.

    It insults the memory of the dead. It insults those that commemorate the dead.

    Chief magistrate Howard Riddle

    Witness Tony Kibble, whose grandfather was a WW2 veteran, said he felt "sick inside".

    The incident caused scuffles with members of the right-wing English Defence League who had been kept apart from police.

    An officer was hurt during the arrest of Choudhury and fellow protestor Mohammed Haque, who was found not guilty.

    Choudhury was convicted of actions "likely to cause harassment, harm or distress."

    Chief magistrate Howard Riddle described it as "behaviour that is bound to be seen as insulting".

    Emdadur Choudhury shouts at English Defence League supporters outside Belmarsh Magistrates Court

    Choudhury said he was exercising his "right to freedom of expression"

    He said: "It insults the memory of the dead. It insults those that commemorate the dead.

    "It insults those who have lost loved ones. It insults those who use this occasion publicly to show their gratitude for lives sacrificed."

    Mr Riddle said he had considered Choudhury's human rights of free speech, but "freedom of expression is not unlimited".

    Shaun Rusling, vice-chairman of the National Gulf War Veterans and Families Association, said that every serviceman in the country would see the sentence as "disgusting".

    He said: "If we set fire to a Quran there would be uproar and they would go after us but because this is Britain people just get upset. It is a futile sentence.

    For them to insult those who have given their lives for freedom is an affront.

    Shaun Rusling, National Gulf War Veterans and Families Association

    Mr Rusling, who served in the first Gulf war and whose grandfather and father served in the first and second world wars, said the soft touch would only encourage the group to make even more radical and offensive forms of protests.

    "For them to insult those who have given their lives for freedom is an affront. It is one law for them and one law for others," he said.

    "Remembrance Day is a very special day for those in the armed forces. It is a day when we remember those who have lost their lives for freedom and fighting for their country.

    "The contradiction in their behaviour is that it is the armed forces who have given them the right to protest and free speech.

    "I do not object to their right to protest, but what I do object to is for them to insult the people who have fought for their country to give them that right.

    File photo dated 11/11/10 of Muslims Against Crusades protesters burning poppies during the two-minute silence on the anniversary of Armistice day

    Protesters chanted through a two-minute silence

    Muslim Labour MP Khalid Mahmood also said the sentence was not adequate to make up for the hurt it had caused.

    Mr Mahmood, MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, said: "They should be made to pay costs and really £50 is not enough. We don't take it seriously enough, he hurt a lot of people - people who are simply going out and doing their jobs.

    "Protests against the government, protests against the politicians who put the soldiers there - but do not protest against the people who are simply doing their jobs.

    "I really don't think it is acceptable to protest against people who have died for their country."

    The Royal British Legion said it did not want to give the protestors more publicity, but a spokesman added: "The poppy is a symbol of sacrifice and valour.

    "The two-minute silence is a time for reflection, not political protest."

    Choudhury was not in court to hear his sentence.

    His £50 fine was means tested after his lawyer said he earned £480 a month from part-time work and got £792 a month benefits.

    The maximum fine for his offence - the least serious of public order crimes - is £1,000.




    What do ye think of this?


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭deandean


    I am surprised the Veterans there were so cool.

    Try turning up at a service in Iraq or anywhere over that chanting Fcuk Allah and Taliban Burn in Hell - it's not a 50 quid fine you'd end up with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    Nothing surprising really. We've gottin to the stage were any race, religion or creed can get away with blue murder for fear of pis*ing off the pc police. If the indigenous population act that way they expect massive fines, lenghty jail sentences and a hefty kick up the arse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,969 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    People died over the Danish cartoons yet this guy was just
    Choudhury said he was exercising his "right to freedom of expression"

    If the Irish Times reprinted those cartoons tomorrow I wonder would this person respect freedom of expression


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,357 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    A muslim extremist.......

    How many virgins do you get for burning a poppy?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    freedom of speech, provided you say something we want to hear

    if they turned up to a demonstration in america to do something like that, they'd get police protection and a court would uphold their right to protest.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭*adele*


    Thought this said puppy D: In comparison this is pretty tame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Damn, now I feel like Chowder for lunch.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    biko wrote: »
    Damn, now I feel like Chowder for lunch.

    Lamb chowder?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,357 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    biko wrote: »
    Damn, now I feel like Chowder for lunch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Shows the difference between the UK and America, where they actually take the whole freedom of expression thing seriously.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,357 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Einhard wrote: »
    Shows the difference between the UK and America, where they actually take the whole freedom of expression thing seriously.

    Yeah, i hear God hates Fags these days!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Yeah, i hear God hates Fags these days!

    That's so last century. God hates Fangs now. Feckin vampires!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭flyton5


    Despicable act. But then there's plenty of Irish people who'd do exactly the same.

    I wonder how much of a fine people on boards would get for some of the racist shít that gets spouted?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert



    I think he has a legitmate reason to protest against the British army and what they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this was definitely not the time and place for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Deliberately attempting to cause maximum offence and get a reaction. Fine appropriate IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I think he has a legitmate reason to protest against the British army and what they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this was definitely not the time and place for it.

    How many Muslims joined the BA when they were in Bosnia helping to prevent Muslims being ethnically cleansed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,969 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Saw that story on the Daily Mail site and then read a few articles on different topics

    Some amount of anti Irish comments over on that site on all sorts of stories :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Saw that story on the Daily Mail site and then read a few articles on different topics

    Some amount of anti Irish comments over on that site on all sorts of stories :(

    Let's face it, burning a few poppies is pretty insignificant compared to what the Irish did in enniskillen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Let's face it, burning a few poppies is pretty insignificant compared to what the Irish did in enniskillen.

    And to what the English did to Jamie Bulger.

    Oh no, wait, that's an absurd over-generalisation. It must be catching...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Einhard wrote: »
    And to what the English did to Jamie Bulger.

    Oh no, wait, that's an absurd over-generalisation. It must be catching...

    I have never heard anyone defend Jamie Bulger's murder.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    biko wrote: »
    Damn, now I feel like Chowder for lunch.

    Chow-dayr?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    I have never heard anyone defend Jamie Bulger's murder.

    I never heard "the Irish" defend Enniskillen. You realise we're not one homogenous hive mind right?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,969 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    On that note, it was the tabloids who came up with Jamie.
    He was always called James in any interview with the family

    Much the same way Madeleine became Maddie

    If any of us became a tabloid story our names may well be changed too
    Ok, a minor point but it's there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    I have never heard anyone defend Jamie Bulger's murder.

    Haven't come across defence of enniskillen either


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    I'd like to see a Westerner doing the equivilent in a Muslim country. The fine? One head.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Einhard wrote: »
    I never heard "the Irish" defend Enniskillen. You realise we're not one homogenous hive mind right?

    I know. The vast majority of Irish people condemned the attack, just as the vast majority of Muslims would condemn this as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I'd like to see a Westerner doing the equivilent in a Muslim country. The fine? One head.

    But don't we like to rabbit on about how much more enlightened we are than most Muslim nations?

    I don't think someone should receive a fine for offending another person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    I know. The vast majority of Irish people condemned the attack, just as the vast majority of Muslims would condemn this as well.

    Eh, right. You go off in a differnt direction with each reply!

    I was making the point that "the Irish" didn't commit the atrocity at Enniskillen. That's an absurd generalisation to make.

    Anyway, getting a tad off topic here...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Are insults crimes?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Saw that story on the Daily Mail site and then read a few articles on different topics

    Some amount of anti Irish comments over on that site on all sorts of stories :(

    The Daily mail comments section is full of the usual 'I can't spout racist tripe in public= it's pc gone mad, whatever happened to freedom of speech etc' comments. Funnily enough it only applies to their bigoted views :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    How many Muslims joined the BA when they were in Bosnia helping to prevent Muslims being ethnically cleansed?

    I don't know, how many?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Einhard wrote: »
    I don't think someone should receive a fine for offending another person.

    Depends what you call offending someone. Should I be allowed walk around town verbally abusing people on grounds of race/sex/ethnicity/religion? Don't be absurd.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I know. The vast majority of Irish people condemned the attack, just as the vast majority of Muslims would condemn this as well.

    So why use the term 'The Irish' when referring to the IRA?
    Let's face it, burning a few poppies is pretty insignificant compared to what the Irish did in enniskillen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    prinz wrote: »
    Depends what you call offending someone.

    What if someone calls your mother an insulting name, e.g. whore,slut? Should they be fined for that? I would consider that very insulting but don't think it justifies a fine (maybe a punch in the mouth! :D)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    So why use the term 'The Irish' when referring to the IRA?

    To set a level of understanding before all the Muslim bashing starts.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    What if someone calls your mother an insulting name, e.g. whore,slut? Should they be fined for that? I would consider that very insulting but don't think it justifies a fine (maybe a punch in the mouth! :D)

    That's the grey area. Do you ignore the ramblings of an idiot and walk away or is that person in breach of the public order act? I'd suggest for verbal abuse by some stranger a police caution at least would be in order.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Choudhury said he was exercising his "right to freedom of expression"

    Then I have a right to burn the koran as freedom of expression.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    prinz wrote: »
    That's the grey area. Do you ignore the ramblings of an idiot and walk away or is that person in breach of the public order act?

    I know I should walk away, but I would probaby get wound up and shout some insults back at them. If they get annoyed and I get annoyed, who knows, it could come to blows.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Choudhury said he was exercising his "right to freedom of expression"

    Then I have a right to burn the koran as freedom of expression.

    You do have the right, but why would you want to do that?

    I think the majority of posters so far think actions such as Choudhury's, which are designed to upset, annoy and cause general strife are not acceptable. Do you agree with this viewpoint? OR do you think people should be able to do whatever they want, as freedom of expression?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    prinz wrote: »
    Depends what you call offending someone. Should I be allowed walk around town verbally abusing people on grounds of race/sex/ethnicity/religion? Don't be absurd.

    Hmmm, your post seems to be a tad longer in quotation than it is on the general thread!

    There is, of course, a line to be drawn in what people can or cannot say. It's difficult to know where to draw the line, but sustained, personalised abuse, constituting harassment would seem to me a step too far. However, these men were expressing their opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were making a political point, and they should have been allowed to make that point, regardless of whether veterans were insulted. Should all anti-war protests be cancelled? I mean, someone is bound to take exception to a protest calling into question the cause for which a loved one died.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Einhard wrote: »
    But don't we like to rabbit on about how much more enlightened we are than most Muslim nations?

    I don't think someone should receive a fine for offending another person.

    We also don't stone people to death. Do it in Iran, you'll see who's more 'enlightened' then.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I'm sure there's some ironic connection to be made between poppies and UK occupation of Afghanistan but I'm hungry and not bothered.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    EnterNow wrote: »
    We also don't stone people to death. Do it in Iran, you'll see who's more 'enlightened' then.

    I'm not arguing we're less enlightened. That's obviously not the case. I'm pointing out the irony of people claimging this enlightenment, whilst advocating the practises of Iran or Saudi Arabia as some form of comparative example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Einhard wrote: »
    They were making a political point, and they should have been allowed to make that point, regardless of whether veterans were insulted. Should all anti-war protests be cancelled? I mean, someone is bound to take exception to a protest calling into question the cause for which a loved one died.

    There is a time and a place for everything, which the vast majority of people can work out with an ounce of common sense. I doubt many would have given a second thought at some mad-cap burning poppies the rest of the year round. Just because it was a 'political point/protest' doesn't give it any more legitimacy than anything else.

    Imagine a march in Dublin for the survivors of clerical abuse, should someone be allowed follow the march in fancy dress as a cleric pretending to be abusing a child for the lolz? Of course not.

    Imagine a march to commemorate Veronica Guerin, should a group chanting to death to journalists be acceptable? Again of course not.

    There are a whole myriad of protests/causes which could cause a lot of friction between people. Hold your own march/protest/celebration on your own day and potential flashpoints are avoided.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    prinz wrote: »
    That's the grey area. Do you ignore the ramblings of an idiot and walk away or is that person in breach of the public order act? I'd suggest for verbal abuse by some stranger a police caution at least would be in order.

    But they weren't involved in the personalised abuse of anyone attending the commemoration.
    old_aussie wrote: »
    Choudhury said he was exercising his "right to freedom of expression"

    Then I have a right to burn the koran as freedom of expression.

    Of course you do. Has anyone ever tried to stop you? You'd be an idiot for wanting to do so, but even idiots have rights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    They have the right to protest. Just a shame the way they went about it. But thats the freedom we like.

    RIP volunteers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Einhard wrote: »
    But they weren't involved in the personalised abuse of anyone attending the commemoration..

    I'd say there were quite a few service personnel present.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,595 ✭✭✭bonerm


    It's times like these I'm glad this country doesn't launch hypocritical invasions of other lands for profit and/or welcome muslim extremists to live here. The UK does seem to be going down the tubes somewhat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    prinz wrote: »
    That's the grey area. Do you ignore the ramblings of an idiot and walk away or is that person in breach of the public order act? .

    The old feeding the trolls debate again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    You do have the right, but why would you want to do that?

    I think the majority of posters so far think actions such as Choudhury's, which are designed to upset, annoy and cause general strife are not acceptable. Do you agree with this viewpoint? OR do you think people should be able to do whatever they want, as freedom of expression?

    Just as a heads-up, you might want to read into his post history, particularly this and this.
    I think they should answer your question, especially where Muslims are concerned.


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