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The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

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  • #122
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    "When I was young, we had to do maths with our feet and we weren't even told what the question was! The paper was actually a bomb! And we had to get up at dawn and walk through the fields with no shoes to get to the exam centre!"
    :rolleyes:

    Hmmm yes. Good luck in your dumbed down syllabus.


  • #123
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    yawha wrote: »
    I disagree.

    See, the thing is, "creativity" or "personal opinion" are still subject to being assessed for their merit and validity. Just because something is a personal opinion or a creative response doesn't automatically mean it deserves to be marked higher than something that's been rote learned. For example, for an essay on some aspect of some novel on the course, you still have to make your case and back it up with reference to the text, and it has to be coherent and sensible.

    Now, not everyone is as good at critical analysis as others, and the average class will have a mix of abilities. A teacher has a choice between teaching critical analysis or spoonfeeding notes. And on average, the spoonfeeding notes approach will produce higher grades in those less able, meaning the class as a whole will have a higher average, which naturally reflects well on the teacher. The elephant in the room, of course, is that the students have learned absolutely nothing about critical analysis of English literature, and as such, the entire exercise can be seen as a bit of a waste of time.

    So to get back to the point, I disagree that English is marked in a "tick the box" style, it's that it's taught in a very uncreative, rote-learning focused manner. It's very possible to do well with your own opinions and creativity, but at the same time, you can do as well by having rote learned someone else's opinions, and teachers generally take this approach.


    I would agree with this. I did my leaving in 2009, and I did very well in English because I read the literature, formed my own opinions and gave them regardless of whatever points the teacher spoonfed the class. My class as a whole was made up of disinterested English students with maybe 2 or 4 besides me who actually liked the subject. Our teacher stood at the top of the room every day for 2 years handing out notes and warning us not to just regurgitate them back to her (which nearly everyone did). I never even read them :pac:. I was a very very bad student (worse now), particularly lazy, but I never, ever gave someone else's ideas as my own. I can see why she didn't bother teaching proper critical analysis though, because the ones who wanted to had a grasp of it anyway, and trying to teach disinterested pupils garners no results.

    The leaving cert system is flawed though. Unlike many people I think the english system is better - they pick few subjects and study them intensely in preparation for university. Makes more sense. Colleges over there look for certain grades in certain A levels, not x amount of generic points.


  • #124
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    We know that but with the exception of English and Maths, it's basically "here, learn this book, okay you passed the course". I think English is the only course were you need to actually show a somewhat basic level of understanding. And Maths generally needs you to be able to actually understand things.

    History? Used to be essays in my day. Irish. Similar to English. Applied maths, similar to maths. Physics, rote and working out.

    Whenever this comes up I point out that we need some rote. geography has to be rote, and many college degrees are rote. Paradoxically, given this thread - medicine and law are rote.


  • #125
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    Personally, and I realise this is strictly my own little view and will not be shared by others, I believe the leaving cert is a load of me boll1x. I have a leaving cert that would make a UCD lecturer's eyes water, and I have NEVER once used it for anything. Studying hard was the biggest waste of time I ever was foolish enough to indulge in. My advice to my own kids - do your own thing and ignore the whole "tests" thing as best as you can. I have many highly qualified friends who scrape by, just. I have friends with not a cert to their name who are rolling in it. It is a production line for squares, and the world wants rounds.


  • #126
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Hmmm yes. Good luck in your dumbed down syllabus.

    I've done the older HL maths and chemistry questions. They are no more difficult than the ones I do now (excluding project maths, those can potentially be easier or more difficult depending on where your aptitudes lie)


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  • #127
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    languagenerd wrote: »
    But like someone said earlier, that's a choice people make. I never learned off an essay (even though I did four languages) and I think with sciences you need to understand stuff as well to get a good mark.

    The point is, you get out what you put in. If you learn everything off, and forget it straight after, that's your choice. If you decide to engage with it, it'll stick to you.

    Considering some teachers deem "learning off essays" as a good teaching technique, you end up teaching yourself.
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    History? Used to be essays in my day. Irish. Similar to English. Applied maths, similar to maths. Physics, rote and working out.

    Whenever this comes up I point out that we need some rote. geography has to be rote, and many college degrees are rote. Paradoxically, given this thread - medicine and law are rote.

    True but in the leaving you aren't learning WHY things happen, you're just learning the information like a robot to mindless rattle off. There's a difference between being able to eplain the difference between two things and being able to give your own version of the difference. At the end of the day, rote or not, we're just being made into mindless robots and unless you actually have an interest and learn outside of school, you're just learning how to copy a book and write it out.


  • #128
    mossyc123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭mossyc123


    The Leaving Cert is the Perfect System!

    Those who work hard and are capable of doing well ...WIN... those who don't or don't work hard enough... DON'T.

    Apart from the recent advent of Grind Schools... it actually could not be more democratic!

    For all Young Wans / Lads doing it now... if you are so special and don't need it... you will succeed anyway, so don't worry about it.


  • #129
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Having done both HL maths and applied maths, I can say the syllabus has changed significantly over the last 20 years. Questions could change completely year on year and were actually meant to challenge students and make them think about the solutions. All that exists nowadays is a system which encourages people to remember a set method and plug in different values.

    It leads to problems later in college. To do electronic engineering in UL required 450+ plus points as well as an honour in HL maths. This was later dropped to 300 odd with HL maths no longer required. As a result students are now dropping out of these courses, those that remain are coming out with poor quality degrees and companies who are looking for graduates from these courses are not employing them as the standard is so poor.

    No walking to school backwards in snow, writing with your feet etc. I'm not surprised those doing the leaving are defending it, but there is no denying that the quality of the exam and the students it is passing is very questionable.


  • #130
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Spudmonkey wrote: »

    It leads to problems later in college. To do electronic engineering in UL required 450+ plus points as well as an honour in HL maths. This was later dropped to 300 odd with HL maths no longer required. As a result students are now dropping out of these courses, those that remain are coming out with poor quality degrees and companies who are looking for graduates from these courses are not employing them as the standard is so poor.

    The points system has nothing to do with the level of difficulty of the exam. It dropped to 300 because the number of spaces increased on the course. If the course became more competitive for said spaces this would lead to an increase in the points. Many computer courses have high drop out rates due to their low points entry.


  • #131
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The points system has nothing to do with the level of difficulty of the exam. It dropped to 300 because the number of spaces increased on the course. If the course became more competitive for said spaces this would lead to an increase in the points. Many computer courses have high drop out rates due to their low points entry.

    Valid point but just because the points are low doesn't mean that the bottom of the barrel are doing these courses. To pick something like this they must be some bit technically minded. The fact that they are dropping out proves that academically they are of very poor quality.


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  • #132
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Valid point but just because the points are low doesn't mean that the bottom of the barrel are doing these courses. To pick something like this they must be some bit technically minded. The fact that they are dropping out proves that academically they are of very poor quality.

    Or it's because most computer courses don't have anything that leads into them. For instance, with a chemistry course you would take chemistry for the LC but there is nothing like that that I know of for computer courses. I could be wrong, of course.


  • #133
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Or it's because most computer courses don't have anything that leads into them. For instance, with a chemistry course you would take chemistry for the LC but there is nothing like that that I know of for computer courses. I could be wrong, of course.

    Maths. It's all about problem solving.


  • #134
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Maths. It's all about problem solving.

    This. It really annoys me when people complain about how pointless/stupid it is to study maths in schools because you don't need it afterwards. Maths is actually an excellent tool for making the mind more agile, not to mention adept at finding solutions and noticing patterns. It's similar to the idea that the more languages you know the easier new ones are to pick up. Think of how all those brain training games have saturated the market in recent years, and then think why.

    The human brain should be constantly used and pushed past it's limits to find new limits. Maths is perfect for this.


  • #135
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Maths. It's all about problem solving.

    Not all computer work is about "problem solving".
    The cloest I can even think of is if the school offers some sort of ECDL or even a basic to computers course but still, that's not an actual course. So there isn't really a way to gauge how someone is with computers.

    I was horrible at leaving cert maths, I failed, actually. But I'm fairly good with computers.


  • #136
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    fluorescence wrote: »
    This. It really annoys me when people complain about how pointless/stupid it is to study maths in schools because you don't need it afterwards. Maths is actually an excellent tool for making the mind more agile, not to mention adept at finding solutions and noticing patterns. It's similar to the idea that the more languages you know the easier new ones are to pick up. Think of how all those brain training games have saturated the market in recent years, and then think why.

    The human brain should be constantly used and pushed past it's limits to find new limits. Maths is perfect for this.

    Hey, maths is fine. But there's a problem with how it's taught. You have six books in total. You learn book one for the junior cert. You learn book two and three over the next 3 years. But that's only ordinary level. At higher level you have to learn the first two books for the junior and then in the next three years you have 4 books to learn and it's literally impossible.

    Then take how it's taught, you're taught by using the book instead of your own brain. All people did in my school was look at the examples in the book and knew from that. And if they wanted to do better than a bare pass, then'd have to get grinds.


  • #137
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    I should apologise for interrupting your little "back in my day" anecdote.
    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Hmmm yes. Good luck in your dumbed down syllabus.
    Again, this is mere "we had it tough back in our day" rubbish. HL Maths is still as challenging as it was years ago.
    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Having done both HL maths and applied maths, I can say the syllabus has changed significantly over the last 20 years.
    The syllabus hasn't changed for more than a decade in both subjects.
    Questions could change completely year on year and were actually meant to challenge students and make them think about the solutions.
    So that's me sorted, I'll just learn off the marking scheme of 2010 and there's my A1.
    All that exists nowadays is a system which encourages people to remember a set method and plug in different values.
    Rubbish. Just pure and utter unsubstantiated rubbish.
    No walking to school backwards in snow, writing with your feet etc. I'm not surprised those doing the leaving are defending it, but there is no denying that the quality of the exam and the students it is passing is very questionable.
    I will not stand by and listen to people belittling the education that I and many others have spent countless hours working to achieve.


  • #138
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Hey, maths is fine. But there's a problem with how it's taught. You have six books in total. You learn book one for the junior cert. You learn book two and three over the next 3 years. But that's only ordinary level. At higher level you have to learn the first two books for the junior and then in the next three years you have 4 books to learn and it's literally impossible.

    Then take how it's taught, you're taught by using the book instead of your own brain. All people did in my school was look at the examples in the book and knew from that. And if they wanted to do better than a bare pass, then'd have to get grinds.

    Where are you getting all those books from? I did my leaving only 2 years ago, and I had 1 book for junior cert and 2 for leaving (1 for paper 1 topics and another for paper 2 topics). Our teacher didn't go strictly by the book - she took questions, worked through them and explained how they were done. And she wasn't considered a particularly good teacher either.

    I've never heard of a maths teacher just copying out of books and not explaining how you got x from y etc etc.


  • #139
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    fluorescence wrote: »
    Where are you getting all those books from? I did my leaving only 2 years ago, and I had 1 book for junior cert and 2 for leaving (1 for paper 1 topics and another for paper 2 topics). Our teacher didn't go strictly by the book - she took questions, worked through them and explained how they were done. And she wasn't considered a particularly good teacher either.

    I've never heard of a maths teacher just copying out of books and not explaining how you got x from y etc etc.

    Sorry, it's just five books. The text and tests books. :(

    My point was that rather than say "okay, you can do it without the book, you know it, good". It was more a case of "oh they can just look at the book to learn it if they have trouble" Your teacher must have been good, most of my maths teachers had the theory that "if you can do it in class and for homework, then you obviously know it", despite many people barely passing a test at the end of each chapter.


  • #140
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Not all computer work is about "problem solving".
    The cloest I can even think of is if the school offers some sort of ECDL or even a basic to computers course but still, that's not an actual course. So there isn't really a way to gauge how someone is with computers.

    I was horrible at leaving cert maths, I failed, actually. But I'm fairly good with computers.

    Depends then on what you are doing with computers but if programming then maths is about as close as you can come to the logical thinking that's required for learning to programme. That plus the fact that all computer algorithms are inherently mathematical.


  • #141
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Sitec wrote: »
    Stop cribbing, everyone has to do it.

    Nobody likes it but it has to be done.

    The system is far from perfect but in my opinion it's good in some ways.

    If a person can apply themselves in a wide variety of subjects and do well in them they are the types of people that have drive to learn.

    Essential for any career.

    Yeah, you're right. Like anyone who doesn't get 300+ points in the leaving is clearly an undeserving lackwit who shouldn't be allowed go to college. After all, if the average kid in school here can't learn six subjects over a period of 16 months, most of which have multiple books to learn, then they don't have any sort of drive whatsoever.

    Get a grip, the leaving isn't there to prove you have a motivation, it's there because it breaks people and weeds out those who can become mindless fact-spouting robots for two years.


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  • #142
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    Depends then on what you are doing with computers but if programming then maths is about as close as you can come to the logical thinking that's required for learning to programme. That plus the fact that all computer algorithms are inherently mathematical.

    That's the problem. Unless you're aiming to be a programmer, maths isn't helping you and as such, neither are any other subjects.


  • #143
    Captain_Generic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,408 ✭✭✭Captain_Generic


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    That's the problem. Unless you're aiming to be a programmer, maths isn't helping you and as such, neither are any other subjects.

    In final year computer science myself, and if you can add and subtract, you can be a programmer


  • #144
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I should apologise for interrupting your little "back in my day" anecdote.


    Again, this is mere "we had it tough back in our day" rubbish. HL Maths is still as challenging as it was years ago.

    So that's me sorted, I'll just learn off the marking scheme of 2010 and there's my A1.

    I will not stand by and listen to people belittling the education that I and many others have spent countless hours working to achieve.

    I'm not sure why you think I did it back in the day. It's not that long since I did the leaving, and I know for a fact that it is far easier today than it was before. I work with guys who are far more intelligent than me that have worse leaving certs and college results than me. Like I said, I can understand why someone wants to defend what they have done. It remains however that it is fair easier than it was 20 years ago.


  • #145
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Captain_Generic wrote: »
    In final year computer science myself, and if you can add and subtract, you can be a programmer

    I have no idea what that subject would be about. :o

    The point i was trying to make is that most of the subjects, while interesting and useful contain far, far too much information to be of any real use after school. Beyond say... English (for it's creative writing and understanding texts) and obviously any other language, most subjects are a complete waste. While it might be nice to learn about chemistry or biology, couple that with a bunch of other subjects and there's little to know point in it being enjoyable. You're just expected to learn things and repeat them.


  • #146
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you think I did it back in the day. It's not that long since I did the leaving, and I know for a fact that it is far easier today than it was before. I work with guys who are far more intelligent than me that have worse leaving certs and college results than me. Like I said, I can understand why someone wants to defend what they have done. It remains however that it is fair easier than it was 20 years ago.

    Was the leaving cert moreso "learn facts, repeat facts" when you took it? Whereas now it's a bit more leeway and more openess in the teaching methods?


  • #147
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    After all, if the average kid in school here can't learn six subjects over a period of 16 months, most of which have multiple books to learn, then they don't have any sort of drive whatsoever.
    16 Months is a LOT of time. The courses are not huge and it's all very manageable provided that the person in question wants to do well.
    Get a grip, the leaving isn't there to prove you have a motivation, it's there because it breaks people and weeds out those who can become mindless fact-spouting robots for two years.
    It does indeed weed them out. They end up getting low Bs or Cs at best.

    If only it was as simple as learning off reams of facts...


  • #148
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    It remains however that it is fair easier than it was 20 years ago.
    I can levitate, honest.

    It's very easy to say something. The difficulty is in actually backing up what you say. If you ask me, as a current student, the questions of the past (In HL Maths anyway) were no more difficult than that of recent exams.


  • #149
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Was the leaving cert moreso "learn facts, repeat facts" when you took it? Whereas now it's a bit more leeway and more openess in the teaching methods?

    For subjects like history etc, there has to be a certain amount of that. You can't change the way that is taught.


  • #150
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    It's very easy to say something. The difficulty is in actually backing up what you say. If you ask me, as a current student, the questions of the past (In HL Maths anyway) were no more difficult than that of recent exams.

    Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.


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  • #151
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    That's the problem. Unless you're aiming to be a programmer, maths isn't helping you and as such, neither are any other subjects.

    Unfortunately kids don't know that they want to grow up to be an administrator or some such. All you can do is give them as good a grounding in everything as possible.


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