Do primetime do more investigating than the Gardai?

lightspeed · 26-05-2011 01:03AM #1

Last week there was the prime time show about the taxi industry and the crooked NCT offices and following that the gardai are apparently investingating the claims revealed in the prime time show. This week a prime time investigates uncovered allegations of irish priest accused of rape and child molestation (the usual)when they were over in africa. Of course following such allegations the gardai are now investigating the matter further. So im curious as to how many other serious crimes go unreported until a tv show can uncover them? Im not so sure as to why or how prime time are better are discovering crimes than the gardai?

Einhard · 26-05-2011 01:04AM

The difference is the gardai tend not to make hour long documentaries about their investigations...

Overheal · 26-05-2011 01:04AM

Hi lightspeed, I'm Chris Hansen. Would you care to sit down?

Senna · 26-05-2011 01:06AM

Everything Prime Time investigates has been in paper or reports from years previous. Just cause its TV, people take notice.

Laika1986 · 26-05-2011 01:17AM

Senna wrote: »

Everything Prime Time investigates has been in paper or reports from years previous. Just cause its TV, people take notice.

No, it's cos it's not the Gards, people prefer to just give out about them.

K-9 · 26-05-2011 01:18AM

Errrr, no.

Bad and all as the Guards are they are better than the Daily Mail and have more checks and balances like courts and stuff.

Elisabeth Blanctorche · 26-05-2011 01:46AM

Senna wrote: »

Everything Prime Time investigates has been in paper or reports from years previous. Just cause its TV, people take notice.

Really? I never heard about bribing the NCT staff in any previous newspaper or television report, before prime time last week.

Kojak · 26-05-2011 01:54AM

Einhard wrote: »

The difference is the gardai tend not to make hour long documentaries about their investigations...

Crimecall wouldn't be far off an hour long documentary, but the guards don't make that - the criminals make that show...

General General · 26-05-2011 02:26AM

Let's see Primetime foot some turf in the summer.. or build a wall for you on the cheap... well, not the cheap... but at a reasonable rate... well, not a reasonable rate... but...

Mully_2011 · 26-05-2011 06:46AM

General General wrote: »

Let's see Primetime foot some turf in the summer.. or build a wall for you on the cheap... well, not the cheap... but at a reasonable rate... well, not a reasonable rate... but...

go back to sleep there

Bosco boy · 26-05-2011 07:00AM

I think if you watch the 9pm news any night of the week you will see reports of investigations which have resulted in people recieving long prison sentences which primetime didn't feature. They are also well able to put a spin on things.

tails_naf · 26-05-2011 08:04AM

In fairness though, the Gardai at a local level seem pretty useless.

Friend had a car stolen - was told hard luck. You'd imagine the Gardai if they had any sense would at least try be on the look out to see if it was being lined up to be used in another crime, but no - they didn't care. Turns out it was only joy riders - but no effort was made to recover it for him.

Myself - I bought a car from a dealer - and after a few months suspected it was clocked. Went to the Gardai after a bit of looking into it. Was told 'What were they supposed to do - it was a civil matter'? Last I heard clocking was illegal - therefore a criminal matter - but they couldn't be arsed.

Tax and Insurance, and Drink Driving checks around Christmas are the only things I've seen them do.

Can anyone relate a story where a crime they know of WAS investigated by the Gardai - I don't mean murder or anything that serious - I mean theft, fraud, etc.

CreepingDeath · 26-05-2011 08:22AM

lightspeed wrote: »

Im not so sure as to why or how prime time are better are discovering crimes than the gardai?

"Discovering" crimes is one thing, gathering enough evidence to prove it is another.
It has to go through the local sergeant first, then the DPP to decide whether they have enough to go on.

In America, if the police stung the NCT testers like that, it might be inadmissible due to "entrapment" - inducing someone to commit an offence.

Wibbs · 26-05-2011 08:24AM

I would agree on the crime against property stuff, in my experience, with a few notable exceptions they've been about as much use as tits on a bull. Mostly down to lack of funding and lack of vigour in sentencing by the courts, so I don't blame the guards on that score. Though that said I have met the odd useless monobrowed windowlicker and you wonder how the fcuk did they sign their name on the application form.

Sonnenblumen · 26-05-2011 08:25AM

Overheal wrote: »

Hi lightspeed, I'm Chris Hansen. Would you care to sit down?

Mr Chris Hansen? Please come with us!

LETHAL LADY · 26-05-2011 08:30AM

Elisabeth Blanctorche wrote: »

Really? I never heard about bribing the NCT staff in any previous newspaper or television report, before prime time last week.

To be fair, I know someone who was sacked from an NCT centre for taking backhanders, it was published in the local newspaper so unless you read every newspaper published in the country it is possible you may have missed it.:p

prinz · 26-05-2011 08:31AM

lightspeed wrote: »

So im curious as to how many other serious crimes go unreported until a tv show can uncover them? Im not so sure as to why or how prime time are better are discovering crimes than the gardai?

I think you've answered your own questions there boss. TV Shows have the time, money and luxury to sniff out any sort of a lead on a story. The AGS mostly have to wait until crimes are reported, as well as dealing with all the other crap like facing down a few mongs on Dorset St.

AGS have to deal with the actual crimes as well, as well as trying to chase up possible leads etc. Also the journalists are free to operate in ways which the gardaí often aren't.

As mentioned above, for every Prime Time Investigates, there are hundreds of AGS Investigates, only we never get to see a nicely edited, condensed version from one side on TV. Open any paper any day and you'll see the results of garda investigations that take a lot more time and effort than setting up a camera and doing an interview.

MagicSean · 26-05-2011 08:49AM

tails_naf wrote: »

In fairness though, the Gardai at a local level seem pretty useless.

Friend had a car stolen - was told hard luck. You'd imagine the Gardai if they had any sense would at least try be on the look out to see if it was being lined up to be used in another crime, but no - they didn't care. Turns out it was only joy riders - but no effort was made to recover it for him.

Myself - I bought a car from a dealer - and after a few months suspected it was clocked. Went to the Gardai after a bit of looking into it. Was told 'What were they supposed to do - it was a civil matter'? Last I heard clocking was illegal - therefore a criminal matter - but they couldn't be arsed.

Tax and Insurance, and Drink Driving checks around Christmas are the only things I've seen them do.

Can anyone relate a story where a crime they know of WAS investigated by the Gardai - I don't mean murder or anything that serious - I mean theft, fraud, etc.

Just go to a district court and you'll see all the people charged with these crimes.

hondasam · 26-05-2011 08:59AM

tails_naf wrote: »

In fairness though, the Gardai at a local level seem pretty useless

how many work in your local station?

ilovelamp2000 · 26-05-2011 09:05AM

the guards only give a **** when they're forced to. Primetime forces them to do something.

mecanoman · 26-05-2011 09:07AM

tails_naf wrote: »

In fairness though, the Gardai at a local level seem pretty useless.QUOTE]

From my experience with the Gardai. Car's been robbed, mine and the wifes.

They've been great. I presonally won't want their job.

A lot of people dont have and decent level or manners towards them.

In the US when stopped most people do as there told and reply with "sir".

(great fan of Cops:))

Bit of manners always helps.

JayeL · 26-05-2011 09:16AM

tails_naf wrote: »

Last I heard clocking was illegal - therefore a criminal matter

Actually they're right; the act of clocking a car is not illegal. Obviously should be, but it isn't. As a result, those doing it are only ever done on a minor fraud charge.

YFlyer · 26-05-2011 09:27AM

Where did my post go? :mad:

faceman · 26-05-2011 09:31AM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

In America, if the police stung the NCT testers like that, it might be inadmissible due to "entrapment" - inducing someone to commit an offence.

AFAIK evidence obtained via entrapment is admissible in many cases in the US. Its not admissible in Ireland.

hondasam · 26-05-2011 09:38AM

YFlyer wrote: »

Where did my post go? :mad:

Maybe the postman took it !

prinz · 26-05-2011 09:48AM

YFlyer wrote: »

Where did my post go? :mad:

Maybe it was taken by a joint Prime Time Investigates/Garda team as evidence.

prinz · 26-05-2011 09:52AM

tails_naf wrote: »

Myself - I bought a car from a dealer - and after a few months suspected it was clocked. Went to the Gardai after a bit of looking into it. Was told 'What were they supposed to do - it was a civil matter'? Last I heard clocking was illegal - therefore a criminal matter - but they couldn't be arsed..

Oh deary me...

Unlike in the UK, it is not a criminal offence under Irish law to tamper with a car’s mileage, Faughnan said. “You may not mislead a customer about any aspect of a car, and you cannot sell a car that is unroadworthy, but no law says that you cannot change the odometer dial,” he said. Most cars can be clocked for a fee of between €80 to €100 without even removing the instrument cluster.
The only redress for consumers who have been duped is to contact the National Consumer Agency, which can take legal action against vendors. But the agency has shown a preference for “naming and shaming” Irish car dealers found engaging in car clocking rather than taking them to court.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5161841.ece

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clocking-scam-hits-fifth-of-cars-from-uk-2237372.html

This highlights the nature of many complaints with regard to AGS I'd say. People who think they know the law better than the people we pay to enforce it. They couldn't be arsed, or they actually know the correct procedure... Hmmmm.

lightspeed · 26-05-2011 11:56AM

im not trying to insult the gaurds but it bothers me that crimes dont get investigated until their is some public pressure that leads to political pressure.i know of a friend of mine that obtained a dodgy nct for giving a back hander and it seems like other people were well aware of such practices going on from NCT ofices so why was it not till prime time began investigating could there not be an investigation. It appears that there is the bigger problem of trust and confidence in the gardai than a minority of garda members that are not concerned with doing their job right. Why was it that in a sexual abuse claim people from home and abroad trusted a tv show from Ireland than the national police force of Ireland? Its not just the gaurds but on the prime time show about the taxi industry roddy molly who i think is the taxi regulator said he mentioned some of the problems to the the head of the RSA and to the minister for transport if i recall and he had not got a response. Prime time recieved no reposponse from the head of the RSA and the next day i hear on the radio that the RSA have said there will be a full investigation. There was no investigation going to happen until or without the prime time show. Is that not concrete proof that prime time can have moe power at enforcing regulation than the actual regulatory bodies themselves?

prinz · 26-05-2011 12:00PM

lightspeed wrote: »

im not trying to insult the gaurds but it bothers me that crimes dont get investigated until their is some public pressure that leads to political pressure.i know of a friend of mine that obtained a dodgy nct for giving a back hander and it seems like other people were well aware of such practices going on from NCT ofices so why was it not till prime time began investigating could there not be an investigation.

Did your friend go to the gardaí, I'm guessing not. Did you go to the gardaí? If everyone says 'ah sure everyone knows x or y, and they'll find out about sometime' then nothing gets done. Get up, go in and report the issue.

tails_naf · 28-05-2011 03:46PM

prinz wrote: »

Oh deary me...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5161841.ece

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clocking-scam-hits-fifth-of-cars-from-uk-2237372.html

This highlights the nature of many complaints with regard to AGS I'd say. People who think they know the law better than the people we pay to enforce it. They couldn't be arsed, or they actually know the correct procedure... Hmmmm.

Very interesting - I stand corrected on the illegality of clocking.

Would I be right in saying that at one stage it was almost made illegal? Because at the time I bought that car (end of 2005) I remember hearing something about the law changing in regard to clocking and that it hadn't been illegal up till then. I naturally assumed it was made illegal subsequently.

That was actually another thing that actually made me believe the car was clocked - because between making the deal to buy the car (which hat 65k miles on it) and picking the car up - the dealer had since fully replaced the dash (clock was reset to 0 by doing this). He said the rev counter was broken , so he replaced the dash 'for me', and at no extra cost. I later thought this was to cover his clocking tracks - because there was a LOT of talk about making clocking criminal in the media at the time. So was the dealer that sound to spend his own money on a car a deal was done on - or was he sh*t scared he could be done for something?

tails_naf · 28-05-2011 03:55PM

prinz wrote: »

Oh deary me...

Unlike in the UK, it is not a criminal offence under Irish law to tamper with a car’s mileage, Faughnan said. “You may not mislead a customer about any aspect of a car, and you cannot sell a car that is unroadworthy, but no law says that you cannot change the odometer dial,” he said. Most cars can be clocked for a fee of between €80 to €100 without even removing the instrument cluster.
The only redress for consumers who have been duped is to contact the National Consumer Agency, which can take legal action against vendors. But the agency has shown a preference for “naming and shaming” Irish car dealers found engaging in car clocking rather than taking them to court.

Hold on - on closer inspection of that - it seems to say changing the mileage is ok, as long as you make the purchaser aware of it - if you don't tell the purchaser it was changed, then you are misleading them about an aspect of the car. So while the act of changing is legal, selling the car in that state and misleading the customer is illegal.

So in essence clocking - in the sense that the customer is not made aware of the mileage change - is indeed illegal - or can someone explain this differently?

Chinasea · 28-05-2011 10:23PM

Prime Time is a bit of handbags at dawn - who's main aims seem to be a bit suspect as far as I can see - there are tons of topics that they could pick that haven't been aired before; but the whole pick on the foreign workers i.e. the taxi drivers, the care workers in the old folks homes, the Romanians in the clothing banks is all a bit samey to me and I am wondering what the true agenda is here.....

AudreyHepburn · 28-05-2011 10:29PM

Do we really need another Garda bashing thread? Some people will use any excuse to critise them and it really gets tedious sometimes.

Like most profession some are useless but most are honest hardworking individuals who cop a lot of unfair and unwarrented abuse.

D1stant · 28-05-2011 10:37PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Do we really need another Garda bashing thread? Some people will use any excuse to critise them and it really gets tedious sometimes.

Like most profession some are useless but most are honest hardworking individuals who cop a lot of unfair and unwarrented abuse.

+1.

I ran out of petrol a while back at 2AM. I tried ringing people but of course everyone was asleep. The Guards picked me up. Drove me 5 miles to a closed petrol station. Woke up the owner and dropped me back to the car with a gallon of fuel. Stars!!!

theg81der · 28-05-2011 10:46PM

There are no words to describe the contempt I have towards the guards and the full extent of how useless they are. They couldn`t carry out an investigation or lie straight in bed. They can`t even look after files or investigate murders of innocent people not that they even try in the first place. Everything about their general attitude makes me sick to my stomach - arrogant, ignorant, unsensitive, selfish .....I could go on all day.

Anyone who has any problem with what I just said can pm me and I`ll explain how my family know only to well how useless they are.

AudreyHepburn · 28-05-2011 10:53PM

theg81der wrote: »

There are no words to describe the contempt I have towards the guards and the full extent of how useless they are. They couldn`t carry out an investigation or lie straight in bed. They can`t even look after files or investigate murders of innocent people not that they even try in the first place. Everything about their general attitude makes me sick to my stomach - arrogant, ignorant, unsensitive, selfish .....I could go on all day.

Anyone who has any problem with what I just said can pm me and I`ll explain how my family know only to well how useless they are.

If this is your attitude I am not surprised you have had unpleasant experiences with them tbh.

theg81der · 28-05-2011 11:23PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If this is your attitude I am not surprised you have had unpleasant experiences with them tbh.

My attitude to them is because if what they have done to my family. Which they have admitted liability for. Don`t think I`d be human if I didn`t feel this way.

Dangerous Man · 28-05-2011 11:54PM

tails_naf wrote: »

In fairness though, the Gardai at a local level seem pretty useless.

Friend had a car stolen - was told hard luck. You'd imagine the Gardai if they had any sense would at least try be on the look out to see if it was being lined up to be used in another crime, but no - they didn't care. Turns out it was only joy riders - but no effort was made to recover it for him.

Myself - I bought a car from a dealer - and after a few months suspected it was clocked. Went to the Gardai after a bit of looking into it. Was told 'What were they supposed to do - it was a civil matter'? Last I heard clocking was illegal - therefore a criminal matter - but they couldn't be arsed.

Tax and Insurance, and Drink Driving checks around Christmas are the only things I've seen them do.

Can anyone relate a story where a crime they know of WAS investigated by the Gardai - I don't mean murder or anything that serious - I mean theft, fraud, etc.

A burglary. A few years ago I was sitting in my back garden with friends enjoying beers and a BBQ. It was a gorgeous day and we were having a great time. Then, out of the corner of my eye I see this bright green fluorescent flash. I turn and see a guard climbing over the gate at the side of my house. Before I could say anything he said 'did you see anybody come through here?'
'No,' I said and then I realized there were guards everywhere - there were some in the neighbour's garden and when I went to the bottom of my own garden I could see guards on walls and in other people's gardens.
Out on the road, there were more - a lot of detectives too. Then, overhead I hear the whirring of a helicopter; it was the garda chopper scanning the area. We counted 18 cops in total looking for a burglar. They checked every garden along a long stretch of my road, front and back and eventually caught him trying to swim across the grand canal.

I couldn't believe how seriously they took the crime and the resources they used to catch him. After all, my house had been burgled before - as had others I knew and there was no effort like this.

I found out later it was a guard's house.

Nijmegen · 29-05-2011 01:40AM

I think a lot of people have had issues with the Gardai, the main complaint being their inefficiency in tackling crimes that have been committed. I've seen this in personal and business life, and in business life I'd work with Gardai every week chasing fraud and so forth.

I daresay that the problems are not caused by the individual Gardai, but by their leadership: It is up to the senior Gardai, senior civil servants, and ultimately the minister and government of the day to provide the Gardai with the resources they need, and to allow them to become a more dynamic and cutting edge police force.

So when I gripe about the Gardai, I'm griping that their leaders need to get the thumb out, not the typical Garda on the street, who is doing their job the best they can.

Chocablock · 29-05-2011 03:02AM

My grandmother was robbed by her neighbour recently. She lives alone in the northside of Cork and the house next door was rented to a man and woman who had a young child. The woman was heavily pregnant and a member of the esteemed travelling community. So one night at about 2 in the morning my nan was woken up to someone knocking at her front door. Looked out the window and saw her neighbour. She was crying and said her husband had kicked her out and could she use her phone. So she let her in and offered to leave her stay in the house as it was so late and due to her pregnancy. The neighbor hadnt caused any trouble before. Anyway woke up next day to find all her jewelery and 2 or 3 hundred was stolen. Rang the guards who called to the neighbours house but there was no answer. They knew they were inside because they could be heard moving around from my nans house. They said they couldnt get a search warrant and could only arrest her if they actually answered which we thought was bull****. So my cousin rang the Joe Duffy show who rang the local guard station and two hours later they got a search warrant and found some of the jewelery in the house. If we hadnt of made a deal about it, they would have most likely done nothing..Then again we have a personal attack alarm in the house and it has been pressed by mistake before and there were very quick to come so...

sdanseo · 29-05-2011 04:11AM

theg81der wrote: »

My attitude to them is because if what they have done to my family. Which they have admitted liability for. Don`t think I`d be human if I didn`t feel this way.

If you're not prepared to qualify your remarks on the thread then you shoudln't be making them on the thread. Just mho.

MagicSean · 29-05-2011 07:09AM

theg81der wrote: »

My attitude to them is because if what they have done to my family. Which they have admitted liability for. Don`t think I`d be human if I didn`t feel this way.

Wow. All 14000 gardai admitted liability? That's amazing.

theg81der · 29-05-2011 09:31AM

Look I said the general attitude which I can`t see how you could argue with just look at all the stories people have. A few years ago I was robbed, I saw the guy in a disco and tackled him myself, bouncers helped me hold him till guards came and they let him go

.

The older ones in particular and those at the top, but judging by that tape lately the older ones seem to be passing on there attitude, you can`t say theres not a culture in the guards and change is difficult and slow to achieve.

I can`t quantify it without revealing who I am so thats not very fair is it, I don`t see any of you admitting who you are here. They covered up a murder and the file "disappeared" or was never started but it went a lot further than that there were people at the top involved.

theg81der · 29-05-2011 09:34AM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Wow. All 14000 gardai admitted liability? That's amazing.

Well the Guarda commissioner did - as far as I know he generally speaks for the body, doesn`t he?

Shield · 29-05-2011 09:41AM

theg81der wrote: »

Well the Guarda commissioner did - as far as I know he generally speaks for the body, doesn`t he?

That's a strange rationale. He may have admitted liability, but that does not mean that that liability is transient and passed down to every rank and file Garda! Vicarious liability doesn't go backwards!

professore · 29-05-2011 09:51AM

D1stant wrote: »

+1.

I ran out of petrol a while back at 2AM. I tried ringing people but of course everyone was asleep. The Guards picked me up. Drove me 5 miles to a closed petrol station. Woke up the owner and dropped me back to the car with a gallon of fuel. Stars!!!

I would see this as a terrible waste of garda time. Dropping you home would have been more than sufficient.

I'm sure the garage owner was equally impressed being woken up by someone unable to check their fuel level before setting out on a journey - or worse someone who actually needed the Gardai for something serious like being beaten to death or a filling station being robbed ! and they were off waking up a filling station owner?

People don't seem able to look further than their noses in this country.

theg81der · 29-05-2011 09:53AM

Right so now we are having a discussion about 14000 individuals not the guarda as a body because thats not what the thread says. Everyone is talking her about "the guards" are they suppose to name the individual ones or what?

professore · 29-05-2011 09:54AM

Let me say though that most dealings I have had with the Gardai have been positive. Some seem disinterested in their job though.

theg81der · 29-05-2011 09:56AM

professore wrote: »

I would see this as a terrible waste of garda time. Dropping you home would have been more than sufficient.

I'm sure the garage owner was equally impressed being woken up by someone unable to check their fuel level before setting out on a journey - or worse someone who actually needed the Gardai for something serious like being beaten to death or a filling station being robbed ! and they were off waking up a filling station owner?

People don't seem able to look further than their noses in this country.

Maybe she/he was attractive, might explain it.

tails_naf · 29-05-2011 10:10AM

professore wrote: »

Let me say though that most dealings I have had with the Gardai have been positive. Some seem disinterested in their job though.

I'd say this is probably the most fair comment. Saying they are useless or brilliant isn't true. They are for the most part disinterested.

The problem I have with that is they are being paid the same, whether they actively do their job, or not.

I've had positive dealings with them for the small stuff - passport applications, etc (except having to wait till 10am for the station to open, thus making me late for work).

For anything closer to a crime (albeit small crimes), the answer has been 'what do you want us to do' (in the clocking case), or 'that's a civil matter'.

I know people who have been burgled, with no investigation (sure the insurance will cover it)..

I was in sligo about 5 years ago, and a very drunk old man hit the car we were in as he pulled out from the pub. Guards were called, we of course weren't going to press charges as he was old, and damage was small - but our mouths fell open when the Guard didn't drive the man home - he let him back into his car - and said "Take it handy on they way home, paddy". Obviously well known to the Guards, and infairness a danger.

I'm sure at the high level investigation stuff they may be fine - but at the everyday crime stuff, I just have not seen them to care about upholding the law and catching those who break it.

Ally Dick · 29-05-2011 10:17AM

Policing in Ireland is RE-ACTIVE because the cops are lazy and on a form of work to rule over pay cuts and shortages of staff. In countries like England, policing is PRO-ACTIVE.

Do primetime do more investigating than the Gardai?

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