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Are Irish newspapers obligied to acknowledge ghost writers in sport sections?

  • 14-07-2011 12:11AM
    #1
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭


    Let me start by saying I know this may seem a major gripe of mine over what may seem a trivial matter but if you will, please let me expand.

    I ask if anyone in the know can enlighten me as to whether Irish newspapers are obligied to acknowledge ghost writers in sport sections?

    I ask the question in relation to cyclist Nicholas Roche's articles in the Irish Independent.

    He is riding the Tour de France and supposedly submitting a diary to the Indo every day during the event.

    As can be seen from links below it is apparent there is a ghost writer involved yet the articles in question continually state "by Nicholas Roche".

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056325960

    The issue above now leads me to wonder would a complaint to the Press Council relating to the above matter stand up under any of their first 3 principles listed here?: http://www.presscouncil.ie/code-of-practice.150.html

    I have queried this matter so far on boards to date to limited success as can be seen on link above, so I am now redirecting the question on this forum.

    BTW, on the link above some posters have insinuated I have a particular hidden agenda against the ghost writer, this is not the case. Indeed if anything, I would hold the newspaper more accountable as publisher.

    I feel the articles let the writer, the cyclist, the newspaper and the sport of cycling in Ireland down.

    As a footnote and to avoid misinterpretation, I will go so far as to suggest as a solution perhaps it would be better to split the race report element of the articles and the Roche impressions into separate articles and all might be more satisfactory!?!

    As it stands I feel the composition of the articles do not do justice to the efforts Nicholas Roche makes in the race and indeed the effort he puts in to give feedback to the paper.

    Indeed, the same articles as they stand are, albeit in my view, for want of a better word, misconstrued, and ultimately, poorly edited, I feel justice is not done to the quite obvious work the writer in question puts into said articles either.

    Forgive if this comes across as pure ranting but cycling happens to be my favourite sport!

    Opinions or better still, facts are very welcome and appreciated, thanks.


Comments

  • #2
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,653 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Which part of "ghost writer" don't you get? I presume Roche tells the guy what we wants said and he puts the words on it and Roche approves it.

    Many articles in papers are in part written by other journalists, but only get a single name.


  • #3
    IRE60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭IRE60


    We've been down this road before, and the answer was indeed inconclusive.

    Many of us have the opinion that its in the most composed by NR - therefore who cares about the %'s so long as it a proper contribution to allow his name sit over the article.


  • #4
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    I ask if anyone in the know can enlighten me as to whether Irish newspapers are obligied to acknowledge ghost writers in sport sections?

    No.
    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    The issue above now leads me to wonder would a complaint to the Press Council relating to the above matter stand up under any of their first 3 principles listed here?: http://www.presscouncil.ie/code-of-practice.150.html

    No.

    The person who writes any phoned in articles from anybody and subeditors or editors who make substantial changes to articles are never credited.


  • #5
    flogen
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭flogen


    So you took this issue up in another forum, didn't get the answer you wanted and so took it elsewhere?

    Right.

    As has been mentioned above there are plenty of people involved in the writing process on a daily basis that do not get a named credit. Ghost writers, as the name suggests, is just one part of that.

    As for your question about whether a complaint to the Press Council stand up, why don't you make a complaint and find out?


  • #6
    IRE60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭IRE60


    Exactly

    Make the complaint and, when they fcuk it out, come back and tell us all about it.


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  • #7
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    If I am so wrong how come people have got so aggressive over this matter and tried to dictate what I should do?

    I am not obliged to now go to the Press Council so please get over yourselves and your prescriptive messages.

    Not one of you could refer to one single other source yet that verifies the nuances or established formulae for ghost writing of articles in national newspaper sports sections.

    To date, I feel all I've heard in condescending tones is akin to "go home you silly boy, nothing to see here".

    Smacks of the Emperor's New Clothes!!

    Please provide at least one link from the world wide web and everything in it relating to journalism in it to counteract my contentions, I would be most grateful at this stage.


  • #8
    IRE60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭IRE60


    Seriously, you have been down this road before here and received a similar reception.
    Perhaps the reason that peoples tones are aggressive is your constant bleating on in these forums is becoming tiresome, repetitive and particularly mundane.

    There is no solution here, no answers.

    Perhaps you should deal with the complaint elsewhere.


  • #9
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    IRE60 wrote: »
    Seriously, you have been down this road before here and received a similar reception.
    Perhaps the reason that peoples tones are aggressive is your constant bleating on in these forums is becoming tiresome, repetitive and particularly mundane.

    There is no solution here, no answers.

    Perhaps you should deal with the complaint elsewhere.

    Serious now, were you not serious before?

    We've been down this road before with people saying we've been down this road before - I'd like to progress the conversation.

    If you find me tiresome, repetitive and mundane and you have nothing more worthwhile to add maybe can I respectfully suggest you stop participating?

    This is a discussion forum and I've opened a thread on a topic which I'd like knowledgable opinion on if that's not too much to ask.

    Who knows, someone with relevant knowledge amongst the 435,000 boards members and other viewers in Ireland or elsewhere may stumble upon this thread and provide me with satisfactory information.

    How can you be 100% sure there are no answers or solutions here? Do you work in the news industry? Do you know what's in the mind of every boards reader and potential board reader in the future!?!

    I'd remind you of what the political genius Donald Rumsfeld once said:

    "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
    We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
    But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

    Oh can I ask if you also go around other forums authoritively dictating what's interesting and worthy of further discussion? Fascinating stuff!


  • #10
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    We've been down this road before with people saying we've been down this road before - I'd like to progress the conversation.

    ...

    Who knows, someone with relevant knowledge amongst the 435,000 boards members and other viewers in Ireland or elsewhere may stumble upon this thread and provide me with satisfactory information.

    How to you intend to progress the conversation?

    I and others have given you honest and informed answers, that may not be satisfactory, but I'm not sure what you expect sources wise. What do you expect?

    There are some articles, papers, blogs and books written about the detail of the workings of the media and even a few on the Irish media, but I don't think anybody could find your answers in then.

    I may be wrong, but the best you might get would be somebody agreeing with you that its a bad thing or should be done diffrently and even then I'm not sure how that furthers your cause -- people already have agreed with you that it happens.

    And you brought up the press council in your opening post -- the reason posters are saying to go to them is because you think you have a case.


  • #11
    IRE60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭IRE60


    Its very tiresome when you have dragged this up months back and didn't get the answer you wanted.
    A few days ago started a similar thread in another area - and got nowhere and then started the exact same argument here.
    Why don't you get your finger out and lodge a complaint with the press council instead of posting your 'thoughts' on the morality/immorality of 'ghost writing'.

    Stop looking to the answers you want

    And, to be frank, is smacks of jealousy. I think you are jealous of his success for some reason.

    I will definitely take you up on your kind offer and not contribute to this utterly senseless argument further

    Slán


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  • #12
    Corsendonk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Why Nicolas Roche? He only writes his articles for 3 weeks of every year. Why not make your complaint about Johnny Giles?


  • #13
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    Why Nicolas Roche? He only writes his articles for 3 weeks of every year. Why not make your complaint about Johnny Giles?

    I've alot less interest in football than cycling.

    Is JG's ghost written? Who writes it? Is that widely known?


  • #14
    mrsdewinter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭mrsdewinter


    Ok, I'll bite. If a ghostwriter is willing to forego his or her byline, why should you worry yourself about the issue, OP?


  • #15
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    mrsdewinter wrote: »
    Ok, I'll bite. If a ghostwriter is willing to forego his or her byline, why should you worry yourself about the issue, OP?

    Because it's known the articles are ghost written and it's not acknowledged.

    It's not all actually written by NR yet he is the only one credited.

    Maybe I am ignorant or naive but I thought newspapers were bought for their factual content?!?


  • #16
    flogen
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭flogen


    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    This is a discussion forum and I've opened a thread on a topic which I'd like knowledgable opinion on if that's not too much to ask.

    But the only people who can really answer your second question are on the Press Council, and my suggestion is you take it to them.

    You may not be obliged to take the question to them but if you want it answered you most likely need to.

    If you do not want your question answered, that's fine but it kind of invalidates the need for this discussion.


  • #17
    RadioRetro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭RadioRetro


    I'm a journo and I have no problem with the status quo. What you get are the subject's words basically tidied up into a proper narrative. It's more editing than writing imho.

    Where you get a situation where the by-lined person has basically given an interview that is then re-written into a comment piece then the paper usually prints below "In an interview with [reporter's name]."

    My last word on this (unless riled).


  • #18
    Slideshowbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    flogen wrote: »
    But the only people who can really answer your second question are on the Press Council, and my suggestion is you take it to them.

    You may not be obliged to take the question to them but if you want it answered you most likely need to.

    If you do not want your question answered, that's fine but it kind of invalidates the need for this discussion.

    Sure what's to say someone with a similar gripe won't comment here some time or even a member of the press council may care to add their 2 cents.
    RadioRetro wrote: »
    I'm a journo and I have no problem with the status quo. What you get are the subject's words basically tidied up into a proper narrative. It's more editing than writing imho.

    Where you get a situation where the by-lined person has basically given an interview that is then re-written into a comment piece then the paper usually prints below "In an interview with [reporter's name]."

    My last word on this (unless riled).

    My issue is indeed more with the Indo. They should know better. I'm not even sure of the qualifications of the journalist in question and he is probably just doing his best.

    I think the Indo see it as good content and as cycling is a minority sport in Ireland, no one apart from muggins here seems to have an issue with the integrity of it.


  • #19
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    Here's one for you -

    This weeks issue of the Galway Advertiser carried a detailed match report covering the Galway hurling team's victory over Cork.

    On the same page is another detailed match report covering the Galway footballers unfortunate defeat at the hands of Meath.

    Both articles are credited to Ray Silke, GAA Correspondent.

    Now here's the thing - The football match began in Navan just over an hour after the hurling match ended in Limerick - Some 240 km away.

    Then again, we in Galway always knew that Silke (All Ireland winning captain with the county in 98) is some man for one man !


  • #20
    flogen
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭flogen


    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    Sure what's to say someone with a similar gripe won't comment here some time

    all the more reason for you to put in a complaint and tell us what the outcome was.


  • #21
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    ghostwriters who write entire novels don't get credit - sometimes they're actually forbidden from saying that they wrote the book, so I can't imagine someone who fixes the punctuation on a thousand-word article should get credit.


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  • #22
    nitrogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 698 ✭✭✭nitrogen


    I wouldn't go far as to say a ghost writer – probably an editor who tidied it up, spilt it into paragraphs and made it a column.

    For all you know, Roche could have spent 10 minutes putting it into a rough email everyday (Easier than talking over the phone) and the editor did what I stated above. I certainly think his name (N. Roche) should still be on the column if this is the case and not the editor (Or ghost writer as you say).


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