Is Irish Academia becoming a money making racket?

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:27PM #1

We cannot deny the standards have dropped to an all time low anymore. Are these Academics more interested in lining their own pockets? Opening up "Higher" Education to the masses was never going to produce more high class research outright. Is there more going on behind the scenes here? You can't blame em, nice way to bring in revenue while NOT improving standards. Source - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1007/1224305386466.html For the record, Ireland has a truly terrible reputation for research worldwide, at least according to the Times Uni rankings 2011. Was your degree worth the paper it was written on?

joshrogan · 11-10-2011 11:32PM

The majority of my large lectures/seminars from outside speakers in university are people who are doing it purely for their own benefit whether it be for their academic research or for their personal business/venture. The part that bothers me the most is that the majority of these modules are compulsory and if you do not complete their survey/do their project you fail that module.

Ostrom · 11-10-2011 11:35PM

Decisions concerning pass criteria or standardisation are not made at departmental level - these decisions come from middle managers like him who appear to be installed for little else other than to convince the public its somehow our fault.

'Revenue' as you mention is generated largely from overseas student fees which range upward of 15,000pa in some cases, and from other areas such as conferencing.

For the record, I agree but I do wish you would distinguish between 'front-line' educators and people such as Boland et al who are responsible for top-level policy

noxqs · 11-10-2011 11:35PM

Given Irelands size as a country compared to other similar sized/slightly larger western countries like Scandinavia, the university rankings are on par or better. Trinity College isn't doing half bad.

There is only so much one can do to compete with Harvard, Stanford, Caltech which has more researchers than some universities have students. These rankings are based on citations and citations of citations. Mainly.

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:36PM

College is big business, son. Certification for the masses = $$$. College is a business, why would it not work:rolleyes: A University is a place of research, not learning. It's not rocket science ffs.

General General · 11-10-2011 11:39PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

We cannot deny the standards have dropped to an all time low anymore. Are these Academics more interested in lining their own pockets? Opening up "Higher" Education to the masses was never going to produce more high class research outright. Is there more going on behind the scenes here? You can't blame em, nice way to bring in revenue while NOT improving standards. Source - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1007/1224305386466.html For the record, Ireland has a truly terrible reputation for research worldwide, at least according to the Times Uni rankings 2011. Was your degree worth the paper it was written on?

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

College is big business, son. Certification for the masses = $$$. College is a business, why would it not work:rolleyes: A University is a place of research, not learning. It's not rocket science ffs.

I suspect I know of someone who didn't get a degree worth the paper it was printed on.

Einhard · 11-10-2011 11:39PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

We cannot deny the standards have dropped to an all time low anymore.

We can't? Why can't we? Where's your evidence to support such a contention?

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:41PM

Einhard wrote: »

We can't? Why can't we? Where's your evidence to support such a contention?

I am only going by the ranking indicated by the THE, but I can't think of anything notable in the last 10 years. Care to jog my memory? I can't be bothered to research every article published in the last 10 years to form a conclusion.

noxqs · 11-10-2011 11:43PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I can't be bothered to research every article published in the last 10 years to form a conclusion.

It's good you're not a scientist then.

starbelgrade · 11-10-2011 11:44PM

noxqs wrote: »

It's good you're not a scientist then.

He is. Which is proof that standards of academia are dropping.

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:45PM

General General wrote: »

I suspect I know of someone who didn't get a degree worth the paper it was printed on.

Not here anyway.

Einhard · 11-10-2011 11:46PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I am only going by the ranking indicated by the THE, but I can't think of anything notable in the last 10 years. Care to jog my memory? I can't be bothered to research every article published in the last 10 years to form a conclusion.

Last year, there were two Irish universities in the top 100 which is pretty good for a country of 3 million in the midst of a recession. This year, there was some slippage, but Trinity at 119 and UCD at 153 are still holding their own. It certainly cannot be said that their standards are at an all time low.

Also, it's slightly ironic that you complain about universities becoming places of research rather than learning, when most ranking systems are based on research output rather than educational excellence.

Ostrom · 11-10-2011 11:47PM

Some went up...

http://communications.nuim.ie/press/06102011.shtml

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:50PM

Einhard wrote: »

Lasy year, there were two Irish universities in the top 100 which is pretty good for a country of 3 million in the midst of a recession. This year, there was some slippage, but Trinity at 119 and UCD at 153 are still holding their own. It certainly cannot be said that their standards are at an all time low.

Also, it's slightly ironic that you complain about universities becoming places of research rather than learning, when most ranking systems are based on research output

Maybe I am being too hard, but I still think the standards are slipping. Sorry. Besides, research output should be the number one priority for any Institution worth it's salt. Two Universities leading in that regard does not spark confidence.

Still, that is not to say they cannot be improved. We have the capacity, shame it's going to waste.

Wompa1 · 11-10-2011 11:50PM

Einhard wrote: »

We can't? Why can't we? Where's your evidence to support such a contention?

If you'd like to contend if then go ahead...the poll results are weighted using quality of research, suggests ours is ****e.

There's Universities in countries which did not have the same economic booms that we did which have highers places in the results..just saying

DeepSleeper · 11-10-2011 11:51PM

I don't think it is a money-making racket, but one could argue that Irish universities suffer greatly from understaffing - the staff-student ratios in some fields / institutions are nuts when compared to those in the UK. Behind this problem lies the many pay rises given to Irish university academics over the last decade or two - Irish academics are now much more expensive than British academics, so we can't afford to employ as many staff.

Irish universities are now in an awkward corner because they need more lecturers at the new lower salary scales (say, 1 new appointment for every 4 existing) - this would have an instant positive impact on the ratings for Irish universities (through the staff-student ratio element of the rankings) but would also allow all staff members more time to increase their research output, leading in a few years to further rating improvements. But they can't do this because they can't afford them, and with student numbers set to rise and rise, the situation will only get worse until fees are introduced (with the necessary finely graduated grants system too of course).

This IMHO is the solution and is far more likely to succeed than Tom Boland's coherent set of interlocking, mission-specific institutions blah blah blah

Tigger · 11-10-2011 11:51PM

i could have studied for my degree in two months
all the rest was filler

90 in 11 out and we all agreed that we could have learned the course in a year

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:54PM

There are too many Institutions in this country I believe. The money remark is a bit ott, but it's what came to the top of my head while reading that article. I have a crap ability for sugercoating I am afraid.

Einhard · 11-10-2011 11:55PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

If you'd like to contend if then go ahead...the poll results are weighted using quality of research, suggests ours is ****e.

The OP suggested that our standards were at an all time low. I think it's pretty evident that standards in Irish universities have been lower in the past.

As for your second point, the research does nothing of the sort. Trinity and UCD are still highly placed in the rankings, despite being in a tiny country where fees are not paid, and despite being in the midst of a grinding economic recession.

Turtwig · 11-10-2011 11:56PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

College is big business, son. Certification for the masses = $$$. College is a business, why would it not work:rolleyes: A University is a place of research, not learning. It's not rocket science ffs.

Iiric the biggest drawback on the Irish Universities scoring was in their research value. The teaching quality was rated as being of a very high standard.

As for it being a money raking racket, the thing I hate most about it is that it seems some universities just invent courses to attract state funding because of the influx of undergrads. Vague statement I know, because I have no data to back it up just a gut feeling.

Chuck Stone · 11-10-2011 11:56PM

Make the user pay.

Problem solved.

Tesco Massacre · 11-10-2011 11:57PM

Here's an interesting piece on an actual money-making racket in academia:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murdoch-socialist?CMP=twt_gu

andrew · 11-10-2011 11:57PM

Maybe in some countries it is. You know how much Harvard's endowment is? $32 Billion. That university has more money than a small African nation. Mental.

TheyKnowMyIP · 11-10-2011 11:58PM

andrew wrote: »

Maybe in some countries it is. You know how much Harvard's endowment is? $32 Billion. That university has more money than a small African nation. Mental.

Can't deny this. Provided you aren't a pisshead, you can get a relatively decent education here. We do fall down in other areas though. Still, this can be improved.

Einhard · 11-10-2011 11:59PM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

There are too many Institutions in this country I believe. The money remark is a bit ott, but it's what came to the top of my head while reading that article. I have a crap ability for sugercoating I am afraid.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. And still we have yokel idiots demanding that Waterford be upgraded to university status, and KIlkenny get a third level college of some sort. Cos the raison d'etre of such institutions is to boost the local enonomy...:rolleyes:

General General · 11-10-2011 11:59PM

Tigger wrote: »

i could have studied for my degree in two months
all the rest was filler

90 in 11 out and we all agreed that we could have learned the course in a year

Probably should've been a little more ambitious in the course you applied for then?

Einhard · 12-10-2011 12:02AM

andrew wrote: »

Maybe in some countries it is. You know how much Harvard's endowment is? $32 Billion. That university has more money than a small African nation. Mental.

It has more money than a certain small European nation not so very far from where you're sitting!!

Sticky_Fingers · 12-10-2011 12:05AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Maybe I am being too hard, but I still think the standards are slipping. Sorry. Besides, research output should be the number one priority for any Institution worth it's salt. Two Universities leading in that regard does not spark confidence.

Still, that is not to say they cannot be improved. We have the capacity, shame it's going to waste.

I was lucky enough to get a great education from an institution whose research was so so. This education allowed me to go on and study in an institution where research was the driving factor, the undergrads were considered little more than a nuisance whose only redeeming feature was to carry out projects based on the donkey work we didn't want to do ourselves.

It's tricky getting the balance right between the two but saying that research is the primary or sole motive for third level institutions is doing a bit of a disservice to students IMO.

andrew · 12-10-2011 12:06AM

Einhard wrote: »

It has more money than a certain small European nation not so very far from where you're sitting!!

14% of our GDP :eek:

Chuck Stone · 12-10-2011 12:06AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

Here's an interesting piece on an actual money-making racket in academia:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murdoch-socialist?CMP=twt_gu

That's pretty shocking actually.

Tax payer pays for the research and then tax-payer gets charged extrotionate rates to view the results and copyright lasts forever.

They shouldn't be allowed to copyright that material seeing as the public pays for it in the first place.

andrew · 12-10-2011 12:08AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

Here's an interesting piece on an actual money-making racket in academia:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murdoch-socialist?CMP=twt_gu

No, this is an actual money making racket in academia :P

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 12:08AM

DeepSleeper wrote: »

I don't think it is a money-making racket, but one could argue that Irish universities suffer greatly from understaffing - the staff-student ratios in some fields / institutions are nuts when compared to those in the UK. Behind this problem lies the many pay rises given to Irish university academics over the last decade or two - Irish academics are now much more expensive than British academics, so we can't afford to employ as many staff.

Irish universities are now in an awkward corner because they need more lecturers at the new lower salary scales (say, 1 new appointment for every 4 existing) - this would have an instant positive impact on the ratings for Irish universities (through the staff-student ratio element of the rankings) but would also allow all staff members more time to increase their research output, leading in a few years to further rating improvements. But they can't do this because they can't afford them, and with student numbers set to rise and rise, the situation will only get worse until fees are introduced (with the necessary finely graduated grants system too of course).

This IMHO is the solution and is far more likely to succeed than Tom Boland's coherent set of interlocking, mission-specific institutions blah blah blah

Even if they could afford them - they cannot hire them due to the recruiting ban. In addition, entry level non-tenured teaching contracts have been slashed across the boards. Universities such as UCC employ as many admin staff as teaching staff.

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

I heard Áine Hyland - Chair of the International Advisory Board of the National Academy for the Integration of Research and Teaching and Learning - last week claiming there is no evidence that increased class sizes impacts on learning in Irish universities. This from a woman who has not taught a class since at least 1999 when she became Vice-President of UCC. She has never been faced with a lecture theatre of 450 students at a core module - of course those numbers impact on how much support the 4/5 lecturers who teach core modules can give students. Remember - that is just one year/one module. Multiply that across 3/4 years and add in the 6/8 other modules most of the teaching staff will also do.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 12:10AM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I was lucky enough to get a great education from an institution whose research was so so. This education allowed me to go on and study in an institution where research was the driving factor, the undergrads were considered little more than a nuisance whose only redeeming feature was to carry out projects based on the donkey work we didn't want to do ourselves.

It's tricky getting the balance right between the two but saying that research is the primary or sole motive for third level institutions is doing a bit of a disservice to students IMO.

I know it's a pretty hardline stance, but you mentioned it yourself. From my own experience, faculties don't really give a ****e about students, they just bring in numbers.

It's a shame that we associate "Higher" Education with third level though. That is to basically imply higher education is only available from these Institutions. This could not be further from the truth.

Pumping out masses of MBA's should not be a salient priority. Woah, I said salient. I feel dirty.

Einhard · 12-10-2011 12:11AM

andrew wrote: »

14% of our GDP :eek:

100% of 2010 tax receipts :eek:

starbelgrade · 12-10-2011 12:11AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

You mean.. there is.. a .. God?

Tesco Massacre · 12-10-2011 12:12AM

andrew wrote: »

No, this is an actual money making racket in academia :P

I got my doctorate from there.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 12:14AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

You mean.. there is.. a .. God?

Yup - They used to just plain old University Chancellors but then they were deified.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 12:15AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

I got my doctorate from there.

Doctor of rackatering? I love how the numbers are so vague, as to say a level 10 in x is the same as a level 10 in y. Standards vary across rooms in an Instituion, never mind entire faculties/Institutions.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 12:16AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I know it's a pretty hardline stance, but you mentioned it yourself. From my own experience, faculties don't really give a ****e about students, they just bring in numbers.

It's a shame that we associate "Higher" Education with third level though. That is to basically imply higher education is only available from these Institutions. This could not be further from the truth.

Pumping out masses of MBA's should not be a salient priority. Woah, I said salient. I feel dirty.

Some lecturers genuinely do care - the system soon crushes that kinda hippy crap out of you.

andrew · 12-10-2011 12:18AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

I got my doctorate from there.

Sorry, but it was probably doctored :pac:

I'm here all week, try the veal!

DeepSleeper · 12-10-2011 12:18AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Even if they could afford them - they cannot hire them due to the recruiting ban. In addition, entry level non-tenured teaching contracts have been slashed across the boards. Universities such as UCC employ as many admin staff as teaching staff.

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

I heard Áine Hyland - Chair of the International Advisory Board of the National Academy for the Integration of Research and Teaching and Learning - last week claiming there is no evidence that increased class sizes impacts on learning in Irish universities. This from a woman who has not taught a class since at least 1999 when she became Vice-President of UCC. She has never been faced with a lecture theatre of 450 students at a core module - of course those numbers impact on how much support the 4/5 lecturers who teach core modules can give them. Remember - that is just one year/one module. Multiply that across 3/4 years and add in the 6/8 other modules most of the teaching staff will also do.

Well the ban on recruitment is only a minor obstacle and could be lifted if the funds were there. I do agree with the rest of your post though - I too have heard of pressure on academics to pass poor students and the pressure to take all comers onto postgraduate courses has a direct impact on the quality of graduates - It also means that significantly greater input is needed from lecturers, as some weaker students require a massive personal effort from their mentors to get them over the line, all of which impacts negatively on research output...

I've also heard that senior management in an Irish university dismissed any possibility that ongoing year-on-year increases in undergraduate numbers (without matching increases in staff resources) could impact negatively on academic standards and the 'student experience' :rolleyes:

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 12:19AM

andrew wrote: »

No, this is an actual money making racket in academia :P

From the same pondlife who brought you the "Irish International University" (of Kuala Lumpur and Phnom Penh), which was shut down twice following exposes in the press here and complaints from the Irish ambassadors in Asia, only to spring up again a few weeks later once their bribes had been processed to local corrupt police's satisfaction.
Their only Irish connection was a rented office in Ballsbridge and one of their 'chancellors - chancer more like - claiming to be Baron of Knowth!
Sadly, people get sucked in by this crap all too often, especially in the third world where people are prepared to pay good money to get a Western-accredited degree.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 12:21AM

"Honorary Chancellor", Jeff Wooller, said that: "The whole thing's dodgy.

:pac:

I love hearing stuff like this

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 12:24AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

"Honorary Chancellor", Jeff Wooller, said that: "The whole thing's dodgy.

:pac:

I love hearing stuff like this

I don't as it undermines the reputation of Irish academia abroad. I was delighted to see them shut down twice, and dismayed to see them trading off the good name Irish education has each time they kicked off again.
In the end, a BBC crew monstered them in a documentary, so now their faces are known across Asia and the racket isn't as lucrative as before. Plus, they finally seem to have got the message to stop using 'Irish' or 'Ireland' in their BS 'university' titles. Poor ole Glastonbury is the new victim, it seems.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 12:31AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I don't as it undermines the reputation of Irish academia abroad. I was delighted to see them shut down twice, and dismayed to see them trading off the good name Irish education has each time they kicked off again.
In the end, a BBC crew monstered them in a documentary, so now their faces are known across Asia and the racket isn't as lucrative as before. Plus, they finally seem to have got the message to stop using 'Irish' or 'Ireland' in their BS 'university' titles. Poor ole Glastonbury is the new victim, it seems.

Such is life. Dishonesty exists at every level, no matter how subtle. These are obviously bogus Institutions though, no "real" Irish college would contest that.

For all the faults, Irish Universities are competing in a very tough arena. Hell, the modern computer you are typing on is based on Booleen Algebra invented at UCC. Plenty of innovative research has come from Irish pastures, it's just we have sort of hit a brick wall at this point. Tough times.

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 12:40AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Such is life. Dishonesty exists at every level, no matter how subtle. These are obviously bogus Institutions though, no "real" Irish college would contest that.

For all the faults, Irish Universities are competing in a very tough arena. Hell, the modern computer you are typing on is based on Booleen Algebra invented at UCC. Plenty of innovative research has come from Irish pastures, it's just we have sort of hit a brick wall at this point. Tough times.

The Irish colleges are livid about it, needless to say. Australia ensures that SE Asian countries prevent bogus Aussie colleges on their turf stringently, and as a result they have a better reputation and a foothold in places like Singapore and Kuala Lumpur our universities greatly envy.
It is tough times for Irish universities, and you're also right to say that we have great intellectual resources here, even if third level is suffering similar grades inflation to the rest of education.
Funding is a major issue, and not one that can easily be resolved currently. One of the things that came out of the Farmleigh conference was the need to trade more strongly on our culture, and we have immense cultural capital to work with. Unfortunately, the current government cannot see beyond the narrow constraints of IT, hard science and finance as areas to support, as the Springboard programme illustrated recently.
I expect to see some 'study real subjects'-type comments in response to my opinion on this, but I think there is a lot to be said for funding our Arts and Humanities education much better. We're in a global education marketplace, and we have excellent traditions in the Arts and Humanities that we neglect at our peril.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 12:41AM

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

4 more had a 50% attendance.

4 had a 75% attendance.

2 had 100% - Strangely enough, they both got the highest marks - a First and a very high 2.1.

(Final marks have to be approved by External assessors - they can and do change them).

That was one small class of 3rd years taking a module that counted for 10 credits out of the 60 needed for the year!

It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

Tesco Massacre · 12-10-2011 12:44AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

His name wasn't Stephen Ireland, was it?

Turtwig · 12-10-2011 12:47AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.
...
It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

In all honesty that's the big flaw with the university system and Irish Mindset. Higher Education is seen by most as a means to getting a job. Nothing more. That is probably my biggest reason for wanting fees reintroduced but I fear there is now the pop culture image of the university as a requirement for getting a job that people will still flock to universities anyways. It's shocking to see some people pick a science degree because that's where the jobs are even when they have no interest in the subject, put in little to no effort and constantly bicker on about how hard and stressful it is.

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 12:48AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

4 more had a 50% attendance.

4 had a 75% attendance.

2 had 100% - Strangely enough, they both got the highest marks - a First and a very high 2.1.

(Final marks have to be approved by External assessors - they can and do change them).

That was one small class of 3rd years taking a module that counted for 10 credits out of the 60 needed for the year!

It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

What pisses me off about that sort of information is that they were still being passed! When I did my undergrad a long time ago, out of a class of hundreds was 1 First class obtained and fewer than 20 2.1s, my own included. In the same course last year, more than 50% obtained 2.1s or higher, and the course is, to my mind, nowhere near as rigorous (less knowledge covered, in a less disciplined fashion, with less work required overall.) Yet the class of 2010 can mostly boast the same degree from the same institution where I had to sweat bullets and genuinely work my ass off to get that same grade.

Chuck Stone · 12-10-2011 12:50AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

This ^^ is the problem. When the tax-payer is picking up the tab there is no incentive to be efficient - there is only incentive to grow and increase the number of students getting through as well as the wages of overpaid academics.

Let the user pay and and students and parents would be very carefull about their choices which in turn would make Universities serve those choices rather than their own interests.

Is Irish Academia becoming a money making racket?

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