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Mental Health Act 2001

  • 04-11-2011 09:56PM
    #1
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭


    Criteria for involuntary admission to approved centres.

    (There is no diagnosis but its thought that the hypothetical person suffers from Bipolar/ Manic depression/ Serious Anger hypermania)
    You just cant help feeling that doing nothing is cruel - and doing something could be big bad & detrimental! The person has been close on several occassion over the years to voluntray admit himself but something stops him from going through with it

    The law states:
    .—(1) In this Act “mental disorder” means mental illness, severe dementia or significant intellectual disability where—

    (a) because of the illness, disability or dementia, there is a serious likelihood of the person concerned causing immediate and serious harm to himself or herself or to other persons, or

    (b) (i) because of the severity of the illness, disability or dementia, the judgment of the person concerned is so impaired that failure to admit the person to an approved centre would be likely to lead to a serious deterioration in his or her condition or would prevent the administration of appropriate treatment that could be given only by such admission.

    The following is barred:
    (a) is suffering from a personality disorder,
    (b) is socially deviant, or
    (c) is addicted to drugs or intoxicants.

    If the above a-c is barred - perhaps some people just have serious personality disorders and maybe thats simply it, & section 1b above wouldnt apply - and sectioning is a bad idea.. tricky when balancing the best interest of the person - any tips would be great.... it would be far easier if the gardai did it opposed to family mebers that could be in trouble afterwalds...

    Are there Solicitors in Ireland who specialise in this area of mental health and involuntary admissions to psychiatric care & i wonder do the Gardai or the persons Doctor have an obliogation to help
    Thanks


Comments

  • #2
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    In your scenario has the person threatened to or actually hurt themselves or others?


  • #3
    golden virginia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭golden virginia


    If the person as you state has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder why raise personality disorders which are completely different?
    Can you contact the doctor/ centre that diagnosed the Bipolar disorder ( also known as manic depression) ,who is treating this disorder?

    This condition is very controllable with medical care. Hospitalsation is not a condition of this diagnosis. Hypomania is a mild version of mania and means mild not severe.

    if you feel this person is at risk of suicide or if you can describe symptoms of psychosis to a doctor, then they can help you help this person.

    Where are you going with the desire for sectioning?


  • #4
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    Zambia wrote: »
    In your scenario has the person threatened to or actually hurt themselves or others?

    (1) Strangled Father (20 seconds - no long term damage - assault) 2009
    (2) Pushed Mother to floor (Assault) 2010
    (3) Assaulted girlfriend 2009
    (4) Stated suicidal Sept 2012 (very very hard to say whether this was nonsense or not)


  • #5
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    golden virginia wrote: »
    If the person as you state has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder why raise personality disorders which are completely different?
    Can you contact the doctor/ centre that diagnosed the Bipolar disorder ( also known as manic depression) ,who is treating this disorder?

    This condition is very controllable with medical care. Hospitalsation is not a condition of this diagnosis. Hypomania is a mild version of mania and means mild not severe.

    if you feel this person is at risk of suicide or if you can describe symptoms of psychosis to a doctor, then they can help you help this person.

    Where are you going with the desire for sectioning?

    (1) No diagnosis by a clinical psychiatrist has been made. He is manic though - 5 mins watching him you would see. His brain operates 5 times faster than anyone esles i know. He can be very agressive and extremely passionate about things. He is a chronic marijuana abuser which i think is a form of self medication to slow his brain down. He is very very bright.

    (2) The family members appraoched the gp in 2009 and signed the papers for involuntary admission to psychaitric treatement. He escaped because he was not apprehended within 24hrs of the paper work being signed.
    Lets not make any mistake, he is not a schitzophrenic. He is unable to operate in reality though, he argues with anyone and everyone. Is mania not a personality disorder though?

    A lot of complex issues.
    However the law does not accept a person who is a drug abuser or has a personality disorder to be sectioned. Confusing


  • #6
    golden virginia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭golden virginia


    If this person has no diagnosis from a psychiatrist, and if you and your family fear for your safety and suspect a mental illness then I would suggest that you would go to the gardai - even just to talk to them about what can be done.

    The gardai can, if they feel it necessary take him into custody and admit him to hospital. There he will have to be assessed by a psychiatrist. You would need highlight to the gardai what are the symptoms you think are a mental disorder as opposed to any other explanation of his behaviour such as drug use or his personality.


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  • #7
    golden virginia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭golden virginia


    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    (1) No diagnosis by a clinical psychiatrist has been made. He is manic though - 5 mins watching him you would see. His brain operates 5 times faster than anyone esles i know. He can be very agressive and extremely passionate about things. He is a chronic marijuana abuser which i think is a form of self medication to slow his brain down. He is very very bright.

    (2) The family members appraoched the gp in 2009 and signed the papers for involuntary admission to psychaitric treatement. He escaped because he was not apprehended within 24hrs of paper work being signed.
    Lets not make any mistake, he is not a schitzophrenic. He is unable to opertae in reality though he argues with anyone and everyone. Is mania not a personality disorder though?

    A lot of complex issues.
    However the law does not accept a person who is a drug abuser or has a personality disorder to be sectioned. Confusing

    Mania is mood - manic depressive - is a mood disorder - persons get too high or too low - cant maintain an even mood. Normally not violent. Its a mood disorder.

    Personality disorders - there are different types of personality disorders that have different characteristics.

    I would talk to the Gardai, its looks like this guy really needs to be diagnosed, especially if he is violent.


  • #8
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    golden virginia wrote: »
    Mania is mood - manic depressive - is a mood disorder - persons get too high or too low - cant maintain an even mood. Normally not violent. Its a mood disorder.

    Personality disorders - there are different types of personality disorders that have different characteristics.

    I would talk to the Gardai, its looks like this guy really needs to be diagnosed, especially if he is violent.

    I will talk to the Gardai - he is not violent all the time - infact when he is stoned he is relaxed - when he is not under the influence of marijuana he becomes aggressive.
    His Doctor prescribed him with Valium last week to calm down. She did want to give him anti depressants but he blew the lid and they agreed he was just very very angry and not depressed.

    From what you have said, it is important to note all the issues which are based upon his mental illness & not his personality disorder and marijuana addiction.

    Can you give an example of a personality disorder defined by law opposed to a mental disorder . Seems very grey - but very important by law in regards to admission to psychiatric care.
    S1a & 1b of the Mental Health Act 2001 defines mental disorder - but not a personality disorder.

    To answer the question: "Where am i going with sectioning." We would like a professional diagnosis so that he could lead a normal life with the right medication. Sectioning seems like the only way if someone will not go voluntarily.


  • #9
    golden virginia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭golden virginia


    A personality disorder is a medical term not a legal term. A personality disorder is a mental condition but as far as I understand the law a person cant be involuntarily admitted to hospital if a personality disorder is the only reason or drug abuse is the only reason.

    If he is on Valium at present i would imagine that he is going to be very relaxed and as meek as a kitten so I cant see how any hospital would admit him in this contented state of mind.


  • #10
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    I would bet 100% he is bipolar but i am not a psychiatrist.

    Wikidpedia described him down to a T!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

    I think Lithium is the correct drug and a psychotherapist who knows him in close proximity says he needs lithium (valium has not fixed him for sure - perhaps there is no fixing him -thats life sometimes) - i am surprised his Doctor did not recognise this - but in all due respect he has changed Doctors many times - prob because he fell out with them like he has with everyone else.

    Can i meet his Doctor on a confidential basis (can a Lawyer meet a clients Doctor to speak about his concerns in regards to a clients family member)

    It seems brutal and vicious to section someone under the mental health act 2001 but if they wont go and they are obviously in pain what can you do?

    Why would you not section someone who is, from a non professional opinion and a semi professional psychotherapist opinion suffering from bipolar disorder?

    If only we could spike him with lithium or the correct drug without sectioning him.


  • #11
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    (1) Strangled Father (20 seconds - no long term damage - assault) 2009
    (2) Pushed Mother to floor 2010
    (3) Assaulted girlfriend 2009
    (4) Stated suicidal Sept 2012 (very very hard to say whether this was nonsense or not)

    im very familiar with the mental health act as it currently stands , i have a close relative who is not the full schilling , my cousin was hit by a car when he was a kid and has never been right since , he is a religous fanatic who is convinced the rapture is around the corner and often talks about having spoken to jesus , while he has made his immediete familys life extremley difficult for over fifteen years , in the last three years , he has started to act inapropriatley towards his neighbours , his mom has tried to have him sectioned on numerous occasions and even once managed to persuade her ill son to check himself into the regional psychiatric unit but each time , the HSE has refused him entry by saying his problem is not psychiatric but something else , he has spent a week in prison already and will inevtiabley find himself back there again before too long , a lot of people believe that too many people were sent to mental hospitals years ago but the reality is that the situation in 2011 is no better , the pendelum has completley swung the other way and its almost impossible to get someone admitted at the moment , the HSE like to pay lip service to the idea of prioritising the wellbeing of those who are not right in the head but thats about as far as it goes , they dont do anything except fudge and ultimatley people who are not the full schilling either end up ostracised in thier community and find themselves homeless or they end up in prison like my cousin , people like that are much better in the likes of st lomans than they are in mountjoy but the culture that exists at the moment prefers to peddle the lie that institutionalising people is cruel , it might be but its a lot less cruel than letting them end up in prison


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  • #12
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,655 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    I think Lithium is the correct drug and a psychotherapist who knows him in close proximity says he needs lithium (valium has not fixed him for sure - perhaps there is no fixing him -thats life sometimes)
    Thats not a call that a psychotheapist is entitled to make.
    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    Can i meet his Doctor on a confidential basis (can a Lawyer meet a clients Doctor to speak about his concerns in regards to a clients family member)
    You can meet all you like, but the doctor likely can't share much information.
    If only we could spike him with lithium or the correct drug without sectioning him.
    That would be inappropriate. For all you know he is already on some medication and using the two together may have undesirable side effects.


  • #13
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    golden virginia wrote: »
    If the person as you state has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder why raise personality disorders which are completely different?
    Can you contact the doctor/ centre that diagnosed the Bipolar disorder ( also known as manic depression) ,who is treating this disorder?

    This condition is very controllable with medical care. Hospitalsation is not a condition of this diagnosis. Hypomania is a mild version of mania and means mild not severe.

    if you feel this person is at risk of suicide or if you can describe symptoms of psychosis to a doctor, then they can help you help this person.

    Where are you going with the desire for sectioning?
    I would have thought patients suffering from bipolar disorder would need hospitalisation? Do you mean they would just need to see a consultant psychiatrist for a consultation and perhaps a prescription for suitable medication?

    What is the correct medical treatement for bipolar disorder. Is valium or antidepressants the correct drug for a GP to administer? I dont think so.

    I think to many complexities are involved in the system today and perhpas thats why many dont get the treatment they need.
    (1) Family
    (2) Hse
    (3) Doctor
    (4) Psychiatric hospital
    (5) Law - legislation/ Gardai/ courts/ Judges
    (6) Patient in denial
    (7) Politics
    (8) Current "modern" policy considerations
    (9) Social stigma
    (10) Pride
    Victor wrote: »
    Thats not a call that a psychotheapist is entitled to make.
    You can meet all you like, but the doctor likely can't share much information.

    That would be inappropriate. For all you know he is already on some medication and using the two together may have undesirable side effects.

    I think there are many reasons why spiking is inappropriate. (1) It is ilegal

    Its a psychaitrists call. But let me ask is it the right call for a Doctor to give valium or antidepressants to a person possibly suffering from the illness of bipolar disorder? (as i say the symptoms in wikidpedia seem to be present in the current case - of course im not a psychiatrist so i dont know - but all the evidence before me would lead me to that point of view from knowing this person for many years.

    I advised the hypothetical patient that he could simply self medicate with lithium carbonate - not sure can you buy it over the counter without a prescription or if you can get the element itself legally. This would avoid him going through the terrifying procedure of seeing a psychiatrist and all the other possibilities that he may encounter there. For example a Father who doesnt see their child often may not want this on their record because the Mother of the child could use this against him in Court stating he is an unfit parent and shouldne have guardianship and joint custody etc. ( i assume peope suffering from mental illness have many reasons why they dont want to get help from a professional - not the same as breaking a bone and seeing a doctor etc) far more complex


  • #14
    golden virginia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭golden virginia


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056441819


  • #15
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    There's an article in this month's Gazette on this Act P20:

    http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/November%202011.pdf

    It's rightly quite critical of this legislation.


  • #16
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    McCrack wrote: »
    There's an article in this month's Gazette on this Act P20:

    http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/November%202011.pdf

    It's rightly quite critical of this legislation.


    if you had mentioned it was by colm o gorman , i could have saved myself a ten min scroll down , its the usual PC liberal take on mental health


  • #17
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    Just put 20 into the open field and it will bring you to p.20 instantly.

    I was very impressed with the article and there is some useful information for my research.

    What i think people dont understand here is that many people do talk to the Gardai and do talk to the Doctors. My question is why the hell does nothing happpen when the Doctors and Gardai know about a person with these issues.
    I am coming to the conclusion that its the law thats the problem which is perhpas reiterated in the article.

    Of course its obvious in all duraspect folks to talk to the Gardai and talk to the Doctors. But what when that fails... I assume that talking to the gardai is like a 21yrs old lad saying hes just been raped by Pamela Anderson!
    I think anyone who says talk to these people dont really understand the issues involved. I am not patronsing you but the people i have interviewed have said this doesnt work for many many cases. Its oversimlifying a very complex issue. Sorry not trying to be smart but it annoys me because i would have though that surely after talking to these people that would be the end of it! Wishful thinking


  • #18
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    I am not sure what pc liberal means? Also im not sure why it took 10 mins to scroll down. Just put 20 into the open field and it will bring you to p.20 instantly.

    I was very impressed with the article and there is some useful information for my research.

    What i think people dont understand here is that many people do talk to the gardai and do talk to the doctors. My question is why the hell does nothing happpen when the Doctors and Gardai know about a person with these issues.
    I am coming to the conclusion that its the law thats the problem?

    Of course its obvious in all duraspect folks talk to the gardai and talk to the Doctors. But what when that fails... hmmmm thats got you thinking

    because thier is a culture of sitting on the fence and passing the buck in our public sector and the HSE in particular , you will never get into trouble by doing nothing , paying lip service to ideals like looking after mentally unwells peoples wellfare makes you sound compassionate , progressive and right on but heaven forbid anyone should take concrete action , ive witnessed all this and more with regard my cousin who is looking at some further jail time , thirty years ago my cousin would be locked up in a mental institution and he , his family and society in general would be much better off , today , the system is ran by wooly liberal do gooders who are good at talking the talk but perfer not to walk the walk , this isnt a perfect world , some people are simply not right in the head and a weekly chat with some liberal progressive social workers in some decentralised clinic isnt enough to keep them from getting into trouble , the current policy with regard mental health policy is one big sham , the reason this isnt a national scandal is that it effects such a tiny percentage of the population and also because our liberal media is right on board with the pc liberal idealogues who dictate policy


  • #19
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    I think the legislation in the mental health act 2001 is paramount to the medical treatment for those suffering from bipoloar disorder and perhaps we need more help from new law to deal with this issue:

    I have copied a link from:
    http://www.bipolar-symptoms.info/the-bi-polar-disorder-sufferer-and-denial/

    The Bi polar Disorder Sufferer and Denial
    Denial
    After the controversy and public outcry concerning Elvis Presley’s premature death on August 16 1977 was somewhat settled a reporter asked a member of Presley’s entourage a poignant question, which was why didn’t Presley’s friends help him to get off of the drugs that killed him? The answer was unforgettable: how does one save a man from himself? Frequently the bipolar disorder patient is in complete denial about the fact of his or her own bipolar symptoms and this is quite understandable. Who want to believe they have bi polar disorder or any other mental illness for that matter?
    Inside of one’s own head it is not possible to be fully objective. Others can tell a person what they witness but convincing the bi polar disorder patient that he or she is indeed a sufferer is extremely difficult for a number of reasons. The extreme mood swings that mark bipolar symptoms, depression and euphoria are usually long established by the time friends and loved ones suggest that the bi polar disorder patient has this mental illness. Since the sufferer is used to this disturbing existence it becomes nearly impossible to accept that these mood swings are indeed symptomatic of bi polar disorder.
    Also it is very difficult for most people to accept criticism of any sort, be it about their behaviour, appearance or intellectual ability. This is doubly so in the bi polar disorder patient who experiences anxiety and distressed at an increased level compared to people with bipolar symptoms. It is easy then to protect oneself from what is wrongly perceived as criticism by going into denial about bipolar symptoms.
    Furthermore, many creative, artistic people tend to suffer from bi polar disorder. However it is during their manic episodes that they are at their most creative and this makes it unlikely that the artist or poet suffering from bi polar disorder will seek help for his or her illness. Many bi polar disorder patients in fact fear diagnosis in case medical treatment deters his or her creativity and intellect, a myth.
    It is only when the bi polar disorder patient begins losing relationships and jeopardizing employment opportunities that acknowledgement of bipolar symptoms finally appear. This is often a devastating time in the bi polar disorder patient’s life and a support system of friends and family is crucial in determining the person’s emotional outcome. However as with the sad story of Elvis Presley and his premature demise, it is frequently impossible to convince a bipolar disorder patient that he or she indeed suffers from the illness and that person needs to reach this conclusion on their own.


  • #20
    sophia25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭sophia25


    Can you not see how dangerous this road is?? The legislation is there to offer protection for people so that involuntary hospitalisation isn't abused. If someone isn't a threat to themselves or others why should they be locked up. Only 50 years ago the DSM had homosexuality listed as an illness, so does that mean psychiatrists should have had the right to incarcerate someone and treat them against their will. The judiciary have the power to deny someone their freedom but it is such a huge responsibility there are balances and checks to ensure it is not abused. It is essential that a psychiatrist is answerable to someone and to ensure people have human rights even if they have a mental illness. It really is the last blatant prejudice that is tolerated in society despite the fact that 25% of the general population will suffer a serious mental illness at some stage. Psychiatrists have to be as regulated as the judiciary if they are given the power to restrict someone's freedom. Judges have to adhere to appropriate guidelines for any imposed incarceration, this is why the mental health act is essential to ensure that people are discharged as soon as they are fit to leave.


  • #21
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    sophia25 wrote: »
    Can you not see how dangerous this road is?? The legislation is there to offer protection for people so that involuntary hospitalisation isn't abused. If someone isn't a threat to themselves or others why should they be locked up. Only 50 years ago the DSM had homosexuality listed as an illness, so does that mean psychiatrists should have had the right to incarcerate someone and treat them against their will. The judiciary have the power to deny someone their freedom but it is such a huge responsibility there are balances and checks to ensure it is not abused. It is essential that a psychiatrist is answerable to someone and to ensure people have human rights even if they have a mental illness. It really is the last blatant prejudice that is tolerated in society despite the fact that 25% of the general population will suffer a serious mental illness at some stage. Psychiatrists have to be as regulated as the judiciary if they are given the power to restrict someone's freedom. Judges have to adhere to appropriate guidelines for any imposed incarceration, this is why the mental health act is essential to ensure that people are discharged as soon as they are fit to leave.

    who said anything about institutionalising those who are not a danger to themselves or anyone else , im not talking about people with run of the mill depression , right now you cant even get people who are a danger to themselves and others institutionalised which is why they end up loosing thier freedom through the criminal courts or else just become social outcasts where they are unable to look after themselves , its a fudge on the mental health professionals part , as long as they are not seen to deem a person unfit to cope in the real world , thier fine if a criminal court judge sends them up the river , why do you think our prisons are full of people who are not fully right in the head , theese people would have been in institutions instead years ago and would be much better off

    oh and whether someone is a danger to themselves or others is often entirely subjective and the culture which prevails at the moment almost ensures that the judgements are a foregone conclusion in most cases , the head doctors find the person fit and healthy and work thier way back


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  • #22
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    sophia25 wrote: »
    Can you not see how dangerous this road is?? The legislation is there to offer protection for people so that involuntary hospitalisation isn't abused. If someone isn't a threat to themselves or others why should they be locked up. Only 50 years ago the DSM had homosexuality listed as an illness, so does that mean psychiatrists should have had the right to incarcerate someone and treat them against their will. The judiciary have the power to deny someone their freedom but it is such a huge responsibility there are balances and checks to ensure it is not abused. It is essential that a psychiatrist is answerable to someone and to ensure people have human rights even if they have a mental illness. It really is the last blatant prejudice that is tolerated in society despite the fact that 25% of the general population will suffer a serious mental illness at some stage. Psychiatrists have to be as regulated as the judiciary if they are given the power to restrict someone's freedom. Judges have to adhere to appropriate guidelines for any imposed incarceration, this is why the mental health act is essential to ensure that people are discharged as soon as they are fit to leave.

    The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) is Canada's largest mental health and addiction teaching hospital, as well as one of the world's leading research centres in the area of addiction and mental health. CAMH is fully affiliated with the University of Toronto, and is a Pan American Health Organization/World Health Organization Collaborating Centre.

    http://www.camh.net/About_Addiction_Mental_Health/Mental_Health_Information/Bipolar_Disorder/bipolar_infoguide_families.html

    I think this article is interesting:
    Getting Treatment for Your Family Member
    A partner or relative who is moderately depressed will probably agree to medical treatment without needing too much encouragement. Yet a person who is severely depressed and suicidal may refuse to be treated. This happens because the person feels so hopeless and worthless. In this case, you or someone the person trusts should insist that he or she see the doctor, even if the person protests. If your partner or relative does not have a doctor, go to the emergency department of the nearest hospital.
    You may see that your family member is becoming hypomanic, that is, acting more energetic than usual, sleeping less, talking a great deal. If so, you must encourage the person to see a doctor at once. That way, your relative can get medication to help calm down and stabilize his or her mood. For some people, hypomania leads to mania. If they are treated when they are hypomanic, they may avoid a full-blown manic episode. Once your partner or relative is manic, he or she may refuse to see a doctor. This is because the person will not think that he or she is ill. Families usually have a very hard time living with a manic person who refuses treatment and who cannot be legally hospitalized. Most jurisdictions in North America have mental health laws that make it hard to hospitalize people against their will. People can only be forced into hospital if they threaten to harm themselves or others, or if they cannot care for themselves.
    Most people will agree to go to hospital or to see their doctor. However, if a person refuses, you can then ask a doctor to make a house call and certify that the person must be hospitalized. If this is not possible, you can visit a justice of the peace. The justice of the peace will issue an order for a psychiatric assessment authorizing police to take your relative to hospital.
    The police are sometimes needed to get an ill person to hospital. Family members may agonize over whether or not to involve the police. They often feel very guilty about having contacted the police, even when the police were needed to protect the person’s life. Remember, when people threaten suicide, they are usually pleading for help. They should be taken seriously. Suicidal thinking is most often a temporary emotional state. During this phase, a person needs to be kept safe. Similarly, manic episodes can make a person behave dangerously with serious consequences. Manic patients are therefore best treated in hospital.

    I like the Canadian approach - and they seem to be quite professional. Is it not odd that the Mental health Act excludes those who use illegal drugs to self medicate such as marijuana - when in Canada they have a link between mental health and drug addiction? They call it a (CD) concurrent disorder.

    It would be great if he we had some where like this in Ireland:
    http://www.camh.net/About_CAMH/Who_We_Are/index.html


  • #23
    Ned_led16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ned_led16


    (In regards to psychological assessments)
    I give the example of a person who has traits of bipolar> mania and depression.

    (1) Is the assessment conducted by a psychiatrist?
    (2) Can bipolar patients hide the illness from psychiatrists? A website in the USA mentioned the average time to diagnose is 20yrs.
    (3) If the patient becomes agressive during the meeting due to the sensitivity of the questions asked what happens?
    (4) If the person is a chronic marijuana abuser - do they take urine samples - and do they insist on these samples - to assess for drug psychosis?

    I think a great thing that new legislation could implement would be the following:
    - When a patients family or the gardai institute the involuntary committal - the patient has 24 hours to be assessed voluntarily. Also a A Peace Commissioner could assist in the process like they do in Canada.

    I read a disturbing article about the involuntary detention of John Hunt in Carraig Mor in Shanakiel Cork City whose teeth are apparently wrotten from all the drugs they have pumped into him. Quite inhumane stuff.
    http://beyondmeds.com/2010/06/17/psychiatric-prisoner/

    History of Irlelands Psychiatric Hospitals video link
    http://beyondmeds.com/2011/09/14/behindwalls/
    http://beyondmeds.com/2011/09/18/part2behindwalls/[/ur


  • #24
    sophia25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭sophia25


    Ned_led16 wrote: »
    The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) is Canada's largest mental health and addiction teaching hospital, as well as one of the world's leading research centres in the area of addiction and mental health. CAMH is fully affiliated with the University of Toronto, and is a Pan American Health Organization/World Health Organization Collaborating Centre.

    http://www.camh.net/About_Addiction_Mental_Health/Mental_Health_Information/Bipolar_Disorder/bipolar_infoguide_families.html

    I think this article is interesting:
    Getting Treatment for Your Family Member
    A partner or relative who is moderately depressed will probably agree to medical treatment without needing too much encouragement. Yet a person who is severely depressed and suicidal may refuse to be treated. This happens because the person feels so hopeless and worthless. In this case, you or someone the person trusts should insist that he or she see the doctor, even if the person protests. If your partner or relative does not have a doctor, go to the emergency department of the nearest hospital.
    You may see that your family member is becoming hypomanic, that is, acting more energetic than usual, sleeping less, talking a great deal. If so, you must encourage the person to see a doctor at once. That way, your relative can get medication to help calm down and stabilize his or her mood. For some people, hypomania leads to mania. If they are treated when they are hypomanic, they may avoid a full-blown manic episode. Once your partner or relative is manic, he or she may refuse to see a doctor. This is because the person will not think that he or she is ill. Families usually have a very hard time living with a manic person who refuses treatment and who cannot be legally hospitalized. Most jurisdictions in North America have mental health laws that make it hard to hospitalize people against their will. People can only be forced into hospital if they threaten to harm themselves or others, or if they cannot care for themselves.
    Most people will agree to go to hospital or to see their doctor. However, if a person refuses, you can then ask a doctor to make a house call and certify that the person must be hospitalized. If this is not possible, you can visit a justice of the peace. The justice of the peace will issue an order for a psychiatric assessment authorizing police to take your relative to hospital.
    The police are sometimes needed to get an ill person to hospital. Family members may agonize over whether or not to involve the police. They often feel very guilty about having contacted the police, even when the police were needed to protect the person’s life. Remember, when people threaten suicide, they are usually pleading for help. They should be taken seriously. Suicidal thinking is most often a temporary emotional state. During this phase, a person needs to be kept safe. Similarly, manic episodes can make a person behave dangerously with serious consequences. Manic patients are therefore best treated in hospital.

    I like the Canadian approach - and they seem to be quite professional. Is it not odd that the Mental health Act excludes those who use illegal drugs to self medicate such as marijuana - when in Canada they have a link between mental health and drug addiction? They call it a (CD) concurrent disorder.

    It would be great if he we had some where like this in Ireland:
    http://www.camh.net/About_CAMH/Who_We_Are/index.html

    Ned-Led the Mental Health Act doesn't mean people with alcohol or drug issues are excluded from being involuntarily detained, it just means there has to be an underlying mental disorder and not just addiction problems.

    All it takes is a doctor and a psychiatrist to confirm that someone is a threat to themselves or others for a person to be involuntarily detained so it is still a very powerful action. There has to be checks and balances to ensure this power isn't abused. Claiming "expert" status gives people power and takes away a laypersons right to challenge an opinion. Therefore while there are tribunals in place to review a person's involuntary detention, (that includes a layperson) the reality is the vast amount of tribunals rubber stamp the "expert" opinion. Also it is very difficult for a patient to make a case for their discharge if they are heavily medicated on mind altering drugs.Is there not clearly a power imbalance there???

    If we really want people to avail voluntarily of mental health care we have to remove the stigma surrounding it and accept it as part of a normal range of human illnesses. People should not fear seeking help in case it effects their job prospects or social status etc. We need it be more inclusive in main stream hospitals and not relegated to basements as it currently is. We need pleasant inviting environment rather than the stark prison like hospitals, that would not be allowed for any other group of ill people, or do we believe they should be treated as second class. A recent study was conducted highlighting the difference in attitude of visitors to psychiatric patients. People did not bring flowers, grapes or other luxury items to patients as they would in other wards. In fact very few brought anything at all and when they did it tended to be practical things like razors or toothbrushes. This type of prejudice is why many people who could avail of receiving psychiatric help decide not to. Another is an over reliance on drugs (which controls rather than solve the problem) rather than dealing with the underlying psychological issues.

    A psychiatrist is the only person who can lock you up on the basis of what they believe you might do rather than what you have actually done. The highest judge in the country doesn't have that power. The only reason society has given them this much power is fear of the mentally ill. Any group given this much power must have stringent checks and balances put in place to ensure it is not abused. We are all horrified that the church in Ireland had so much power that society accepted they had the right to imprison and enslave "fallen women" in the Magdalene Laundries. In 100 years times will we be mocked for our deference to the psychiatrists and the abuse of ill people?


  • #25
    DublinRescuer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭DublinRescuer


    A personality disorder is a mental illness or mood disorder..
    And you can be involuntarily put in for this if it is thought you pose a threat to yourself or others..


    Your looking at the wrong act.. Mental Health Act 2007 is what yu should be viewing as it has been passed and details things quite well with regard personality disorders..

    You are right partly though.. you cant be submitted involuntarily just because you have a pd, , it when you pose a threat that the options are raised


  • #26
    DublinRescuer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭DublinRescuer


    sophia25 wrote: »

    A psychiatrist is the only person who can lock you up

    If we wnat to be technical, its Any Registered medical Practitioner can forward a recommendation to the board... Meaning General practitioner technically.. but psychiatrist is the only one to assess the patient..


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