In court tomorrow and confused!

Shosh · 05-12-2011 1:48pm #1

Hi im not sure if this is in the right place!

I was stopped at a checkpoint in April and i had no tax on the car and no full license driver (yes i know, stupid) anyway i got 3 summons to attend court tomorrow.

First is for having no driving license
Second for no insurance
And third for not producing my insurance.

Im confused as i had insurance and he noted the disc was displayed, i was not asked to bring my insurance disc to the station just my license and proof of tax and back tax which i did.

Its a long story but i taxed my car, went to the station to get the release form for my car which had been towed, a different guard was there to the one that stopped me and she didnt ask for my documents just handed me the form.

When i got to the garage the owner informed me that it was the wrong form and he could not release my car so he himself contacted the station and faxed over all my documents. They in turn faxed him the release form and i got my car back.

Do these offences pertain to me? im not trying to get out of it just a bit confused! TIA

kildare.17hmr · 05-12-2011 1:54pm

just bring your insurance documents with you to court and that will be that. You will probably get a fine for the other 2. Remember dress for the occasion! You would be very surprised how much difference wearing a shirt and tie to court can make!

cml387 · 05-12-2011 1:54pm

You didn't produce your insurance when stopped. A disk is not proof of insurance.

You should have shown it at the soonest opportunity at the garda station.

If you had valid insurance at the time then you should seek out the guard who stopped you in court tomorrow and show him the documents.

Why you've left it until now, well, I don't know.

Big Nasty · 05-12-2011 1:55pm

If the summons have your name on them they pertain to you. Bring along the insurance documents and explain to the judge what you just explained here. In relation to the driving without, you'l just have to suck that one up.

Best of luck!

Shosh · 05-12-2011 1:58pm

Do you think i need a solicitor? Should i seek out the guard tomorrow or just produce my documents to the judge? im so nervous ive never been in trouble before i dont have a clue what to do or say!

I dint get any summons for the tax?

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:01pm

MCMLXXV wrote: »

If the summons have your name on them they pertain to you. Bring along the insurance documents and explain to the judge what you just explained here. In relation to the driving without, you'l just have to suck that one up.

Best of luck!

Thanks! Yes i know the driving without is going to be at least one fine just unsure when i thought i was being penalized for no tax( of which i had none) instead of no insurance(which i had)

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:01pm

Yup agree with others bring insurance document make sure it covers the date on the summons you would be supposed how many people bring in their new cert which commenced after the date of the offence. You will be done for non production on demand and no driving licence. Depending on judge anything from probation of offenders to large fine. If you unhappy with the decision you have 14 days to appeal to CC once the court has set recogs.

kildare.17hmr · 05-12-2011 2:01pm

cml387 wrote: »

You didn't produce your insurance when stopped. A disk is not proof of insurance.

You should have shown it at the soonest opportunity at the garda station.

If
.

bull**** they should have advised him to produce it. The op is not a mind reader

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:02pm

Shosh wrote: »

Thanks! Yes i know the driving without is going to be at least one fine just unsure when i thought i was being penalized for no tax( of which i had none) instead of no insurance(which i had)

Be thankful he has not done you for no tax one less to worry about.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:05pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

You will be done for non production on demand and no driving licence. Depending on judge anything from probation of offenders to large fine.

It wasnt demanded though. I would have produced it no problem had i known it was needed! Ive never been in court before si i presume it will be a fine? Any ideas on how much the fines are? Thanks

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:07pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Be thankful he has not done you for no tax one less to worry about.

Yes definitely grateful but afraid i may get endorsements as it says on the bottom of the summons that i am required to bring my license!

IrishJack89 · 05-12-2011 2:07pm

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

bcmf · 05-12-2011 2:11pm

It really depends on the judge.
I have recently seen a judge handing out a standard 2yr ban for even a hint of no insurance (even gave some poor lad a ban of 30yrs) and coupled with large fines (multiples of weekly wage/sw)
Make sure you bring your ins cert that had you covered on the date you were stopped.
Get to the court early and find a solicitor that will take on the case. They will tell you the 'form' of the judge and help you out.

Interceptor · 05-12-2011 2:11pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

Thats not helpful.

OP, bring all of your documents - if you were insured then make sure you have proof of that with you. Its probably a bit tight to get a solicitor involved but I'd be inclined to get one if it was me - that way if there is any doubt you have someone who knows the system fighting your corner.

'cptr

Big Nasty · 05-12-2011 2:12pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

Doing time!?! :eek::eek::eek:

Have you any links to cases here where this has happened?

Didn't think so!

bcmf · 05-12-2011 2:14pm

..also from what I know even if you have insurance BUT dont produce the Pulse system will automatically bring up the 2 summons of not producing Ins cert and NOT having ins.
WRT to tax if you have no summons for it then it prob wont be an issue in court.
HTH

IrishJack89 · 05-12-2011 2:16pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2403801/Craig-Cundle-danger-driver-who-was-awarded-by-Prince-Charles-jailed.html

I rest my case :P

cml387 · 05-12-2011 2:17pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2403801/Craig-Cundle-danger-driver-who-was-awarded-by-Prince-Charles-jailed.html

I rest my case :P

Oh yes a very similar case:rolleyes:

bcmf · 05-12-2011 2:17pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2403801/Craig-Cundle-danger-driver-who-was-awarded-by-Prince-Charles-jailed.html

I rest my case :P

FFS

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:19pm

Yes that freaked me out just there! Hope i dont have to do time as i have a one year old to look after!

mickey mac · 05-12-2011 2:20pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

This is very funny! I reckon there's a good chance that all charges will be struck off! Good luck.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:20pm

bcmf wrote: »

..also from what I know even if you have insurance BUT dont produce the Pulse system will automatically bring up the 2 summons of not producing Ins cert and NOT having ins.
WRT to tax if you have no summons for it then it prob wont be an issue in court.
HTH

Thank you!:D

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:21pm

mickey mac wrote: »

This is very funny! I reckon there's a good chance that all charges will be struck off! Good luck.

Thanks!:D

bcmf · 05-12-2011 2:21pm

If you have no previous convictions and get sent to jail you will prob make legal history, be able to sell your story and retire on the proceeds so it wouldnt be all bad.

scholar007 · 05-12-2011 2:22pm

Shosh wrote: »

Hi im not sure if this is in the right place!

I was stopped at a checkpoint in April and i had no tax on the car and no full license driver (yes i know, stupid) anyway i got 3 summons to attend court tomorrow.

First is for having no driving license
Second for no insurance
And third for not producing my insurance.

Im confused as i had insurance and he noted the disc was displayed, i was not asked to bring my insurance disc to the station just my license and proof of tax and back tax which i did.

Its a long story but i taxed my car, went to the station to get the release form for my car which had been towed, a different guard was there to the one that stopped me and she didnt ask for my documents just handed me the form.

When i got to the garage the owner informed me that it was the wrong form and he could not release my car so he himself contacted the station and faxed over all my documents. They in turn faxed him the release form and i got my car back.

Do these offences pertain to me? im not trying to get out of it just a bit confused! TIA

Do you know any priests - It always good to bring one of them along to say that you are a grand lad and this is an abberation and completely out of character for you - Now if you could bring your old headmaster as well as the priest - I'd say you'd be laughing.

bcmf · 05-12-2011 2:24pm

Shosh wrote: »

Thank you!:D

Save your Thanks till after court because a I said It is down to the judge on the day!

cml387 · 05-12-2011 2:29pm

scholar007 wrote: »

Do you know any priests - It always good to bring one of them along to say that you are a grand lad and this is an abberation and completely out of character for you - Now if you could bring your old headmaster as well as the priest - I'd say you'd be laughing.

I suspect the OP is a girl ?

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:30pm

Shosh wrote: »

It wasnt demanded though. I would have produced it no problem had i known it was needed! Ive never been in court before si i presume it will be a fine? Any ideas on how much the fines are? Thanks

You said you car was impounded, you may not remember being asked, but I can assure you in such situations the Garda would always ask for you to produce insurance certificat, if he did not ask you he will have written in his note book that he has, unless you have a witness who can say 100% he never requested it, it will be your word against the guards. If you want to run that defense please seek legal advice a local solicitor would tell you your chances.

But in light of the no driving license the non production will more than likely be taken into account anyway.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:30pm

scholar007 wrote: »

Do you know any priests - It always good to bring one of them along to say that you are a grand lad and this is an abberation and completely out of character for you - Now if you could bring your old headmaster as well as the priest - I'd say you'd be laughing.

Im a girl firstly!:D and dont know any priests that know me for that matter:)

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:32pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

You said you car was impounded, you may not remember being asked, but I can assure you in such situations the Garda would always ask for you to produce insurance certificat, if he did not ask you he will have written in his note book that he has, unless you have a witness who can say 100% he never requested it, it will be your word against the guards. If you want to run that defense please seek legal advice a local solicitor would tell you your chances.

But in light of the no driving license the non production will more than likely be taken into account anyway.

Will it not count that the garage holding my car faxed them all my documents so he could release my car?

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:33pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

I would doubt it was a first offence and if it was it would be over turned on appeal.

Alanstrainor · 05-12-2011 2:35pm

IrishJack89 wrote: »

Don't be too confident though, I've seen people do time for not having a fully licensed driver and not complying with Gardai. However, you shouldn't get any more then 2 weeks. Best of luck.

Do not post in this thread again. There'll be a ban if you do

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:36pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

You said you car was impounded, you may not remember being asked, but I can assure you in such situations the Garda would always ask for you to produce insurance certificat, if he did not ask you he will have written in his note book that he has, unless you have a witness who can say 100% he never requested it, it will be your word against the guards. If you want to run that defense please seek legal advice a local solicitor would tell you your chances.

But in light of the no driving license the non production will more than likely be taken into account anyway.

My boyfriend was in the car with me and he said that he remembers him telling me to bring my license and tax receipt to the station and he would give me the release form. The conversation with the guard was all very civilised so i had no reason to not do as he asked!

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:37pm

Shosh wrote: »

Will it not count that the garage holding my car faxed them all my documents so he could release my car?

Did they fax insurance certificate?

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-12-2011 2:39pm

Shosh wrote: »

Do you think i need a solicitor? Should i seek out the guard tomorrow or just produce my documents to the judge? im so nervous ive never been in trouble before i dont have a clue what to do or say!

I dint get any summons for the tax?

Do NOT go without one!
It might go ok, but it could also go horribly wrong.
Always better off having one, had to go to court once over a car tax misunderstanding (I thought I didn't have to pay:D), got a solicitor, he advised me brilliantly, what to bring, what to wear, what to say (as little as possible), etc...
I was simply ordered to pay the tax I owed, next case.
Better be safe, it might cost a few quid, but that is the best money you'll ever spend if things go right.

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:39pm

Shosh wrote: »

My boyfriend was in the car with me and he said that he remembers him telling me to bring my license and tax receipt to the station and he would give me the release form. The conversation with the guard was all very civilised so i had no reason to not do as he asked!

I am not saying I doubt either you or your boyfriend, but guards have a set patter and it would be bring license, bring tax and bring insurance. You say he asked you to produce license had you told him you had a full license.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:42pm

Just the disc. I called into the garage recently and they shoed me the documentation they had which showed that they faxed my docs over and the guard that stopped me his name was on it verifying that he got it.
The fellas in the garage said it was odd that i had been summonsed!

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 2:44pm

Shosh wrote: »

Just the disc. I called into the garage recently and they shoed me the documentation they had which showed that they faxed my docs over and the guard that stopped me his name was on it verifying that he got it.
The fellas in the garage said it was odd that i had been summonsed!

So they did not fax the certificate, also had you told the Guard you had a full license. Good to know the fella in the barrage thinks its odd, but I can assure you it's not in any way odd take a trip into and DC any day you will hear cases like yours in fact when you are in court there will be loads of cases just like yours.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 2:44pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

I am not saying I doubt either you or your boyfriend, but guards have a set patter and it would be bring license, bring tax and bring insurance. You say he asked you to produce license had you told him you had a full license.

No i told him i had a provisional but i didnt have it in the car with me

MyKeyG · 05-12-2011 3:10pm

OP I'm not sure if this was answered but I wouldn't bother with a solicitor unless you have a fear of speaking directly to the Judge yourself, and you certainly have nothing to fear. Regarding your case the die is pretty much cast in so far as what will happen will happen. You're guilty on two and the third appears iffy. A solicitor IMO isn't going to be able to change that and he/she will charge you for the pleasure.

I was in court a few weeks ago and I saw a number of traffic offences come up. In one particular case the Judge called the name and the person in question stood up. The Judge asked if he had a solicitor to which the bloke replied no. He was then asked did he want to speak to one (there's a gang of them in front of the bench preparing to represent their own clients). He said no and the Judge proceeded with the case and gave him a fine. He was in and out no nonsense.

The only snag I see is that if the Judge is anything like the one I came before he may get a bee in his bonnet when you explain that you didn't know you had to present your insurance. It's a toss up as to who he'll think is should have had more cop on, you or the guard. Given the fact that the other two are silly offences it may play against you.

In any case a suit and blouse is a must. You'll stick out compared to some other...ahem...less well adorned people who frequent the courthouse.

PS: You are not, I repeat NOT going to prison. They're all full anyway I saw someone who drove drunk on a suspended license the day I was up and his sentence was suspended.

dr.fuzzenstein · 05-12-2011 3:20pm

MyKeyG wrote: »

OP I'm not sure if this was answered but I wouldn't bother with a solicitor unless you have a fear of speaking directly to the Judge yourself, and you certainly have nothing to fear. Regarding your case the die is pretty much cast in so far as what will happen will happen. You're guilty on two and the third appears iffy. A solicitor IMO isn't going to be able to change that and he/she will charge you for the pleasure.

I was in court a few weeks ago and I saw a number of traffic offences come up. In one particular case the Judge called the name and the person in question stood up. The Judge asked if he had a solicitor to which the bloke replied no. He was then asked did he want to speak to one (there's a gang of them in front of the bench preparing to represent their own clients). He said no and the Judge proceeded with the case and gave him a fine. He was in and out no nonsense.

The only snag I see is that if the Judge is anything like the one I came before he may get a bee in his bonnet when you explain that you didn't know you had to present your insurance. It's a toss up as to who he'll think is should have had more cop on, you or the guard. Given the fact that the other two are silly offences it may play against you.

In any case a suit, shirt and tie is a must. You'll stick out compared to some other...ahem...less well adorned people who frequent the courthouse.

PS: You are not, I repeat NOT going to prison. They're all full anyway I saw someone who drove drunk on a suspended license the day I was up and his sentence was suspended.

I'm not sure in this case, it's not clear-cut, the Gard seems to have a different version of events than the OP, there where mix-ups all along, the OP might sound like she's making excuses, judge could take a dim view, or she could innocently say something that sounds harmless enough, but in court might damn her.
Driving without insurance is serious sh*t and I wouldn't go without legal representation unless I was absolutely sure why I was summonsed, exactly what the problem is, what to say, how to say it, when to say it.
It could go ok, it might go wrong.
It's just better not taking any chances.

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 3:25pm

Shosh wrote: »

No i told him i had a provisional but i didnt have it in the car with me

If you are going to plead not guilty to either charge defo get a solicitor, to be honest I would be doubtfull a judge would believe you but of course that depends on the judge and a good local solicitor can advise you best.

If your going to plead and throw yourself on the mercy of the out then it's up to you do you want a solicitor some judges don't care one way or another others prefer to have solicitors act because it speeds the list along. Most people think its because judges are looking after their own in reality it's not lay litigants don't usually know what they are doing so slow everything down, because the judge in most cases has to explain everything to the person.

It would do no harm to chat to the guard before the case, explain you really did not hear him ask for the insurance, say you produced everything else including the back tax, thank him for not doing anything on that. Tell him you will plead to the no license if he will strike out he other 2 matters, he will prob be happy as it gets him out quicker.

MyKeyG · 05-12-2011 3:29pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm not sure in this case, it's not clear-cut, the Gard seems to have a different version of events than the OP, there where mix-ups all along, the OP might sound like she's making excuses, judge could take a dim view, or she could innocently say something that sounds harmless enough, but in court might damn her.
Driving without insurance is serious sh*t and I wouldn't go without legal representation unless I was absolutely sure why I was summonsed, exactly what the problem is, what to say, how to say it, when to say it.
It could go ok, it might go wrong.
It's just better not taking any chances.

But she wasn't driving without insurance. The OP will have the opportunity to prove that in court. The Judge may as I said get a bee in his bonnet when he realises there was a foul up but he can't rule on driving without insurance when she wasn't.

Look it's just my opinion. Advising her to hire a solicitor is of course safe advice I just wouldn't were I in her shoes.

Shosh · 05-12-2011 3:32pm

I just spoke with a solicitor on the phone and he said i will def get a fine for no full licensed driver and that all i can do is bring my insurance cert and we will go from there. I think i will try and talk to the gard beforehand and i am extremely shy so i would rather a solicitor speak on my behalf! The thought of standing up in front of everyone already gave me nightmares all last night!:(

ResearchWill · 05-12-2011 3:39pm

Shosh wrote: »

I just spoke with a solicitor on the phone and he said i will def get a fine for no full licensed driver and that all i can do is bring my insurance cert and we will go from there. I think i will try and talk to the gard beforehand and i am extremely shy so i would rather a solicitor speak on my behalf! The thought of standing up in front of everyone already gave me nightmares all last night!:(

Good call if you have solicitor he or she will chat to the guard for you, you just sit back let solicitor do the work and watch the interesting show that is airish district court. Pity you can't bring in a bucket of popcorn and large drink it's better than a movie, especially if it's not all road traffic.

MyKeyG · 05-12-2011 3:39pm

Shosh wrote: »

I just spoke with a solicitor on the phone and he said i will def get a fine for no full licensed driver and that all i can do is bring my insurance cert and we will go from there. I think i will try and talk to the gard beforehand and i am extremely shy so i would rather a solicitor speak on my behalf! The thought of standing up in front of everyone already gave me nightmares all last night!:(

Well if that's the case and you don't mind the few quid then by all means go for it. Hope you get on OK:) And don't worry. The worst thing about court is you have to hang around all day until your case is heard and it's booooooooring!!! You don't have to stay in the courtroom all day but it might put your mind at ease to watch a few cases and see how it works. It's a relatively laid back environment and some of the cases are quite entertaining.

The Jaw · 05-12-2011 3:40pm

Got, get a Solicitor if at all possible. They do provide a very good service and the peace of mind and experience is surely worth the couple of hundred quid that they will charge for a case like this ( I am guessing at the price)
The District Courts are busy, noisy places. Judges can often go off on a rant and use some legal speak, that you might not understand or even hear, so the Sol will do it.
If this is your first offence and you have been respectful to the Gard then you should be good. Remember the Garda probabley has about 20 or 30 cases in tomorrow. Some will be contested, some with aggressive people. If you appear sound and friendly they will go easy on you.They are human after all. ( btw the reason you have to produce your insurance details in a station is because of the advent of insurance being paid by installment. So for example I could get insurance for my car and pay € 100 by Direct debit a month. After the first month is paid, I will still have an insurance disk on my car but I might cancel my DD making me uninsured for the next 11 months. That is why Gardai wont accept just a disk from now on.) You also said that you are on a provisional, but were driving with your boyfriend. If he has a full license you are covered.

scholar007 · 05-12-2011 3:43pm

Shosh wrote: »

Im a girl firstly!:D and dont know any priests that know me for that matter:)

Whoops sorry!

Shosh · 05-12-2011 3:46pm

The Jaw wrote: »

Got, get a Solicitor if at all possible. They do provide a very good service and the peace of mind and experience is surely worth the couple of hundred quid that they will charge for a case like this ( I am guessing at the price)
The District Courts are busy, noisy places. Judges can often go off on a rant and use some legal speak, that you might not understand or even hear, so the Sol will do it.
If this is your first offence and you have been respectful to the Gard then you should be good. Remember the Garda probabley has about 20 or 30 cases in tomorrow. Some will be contested, some with aggressive people. If you appear sound and friendly they will go easy on you.They are human after all. ( btw the reason you have to produce your insurance details in a station is because of the advent of insurance being paid by installment. So for example I could get insurance for my car and pay € 100 by Direct debit a month. After the first month is paid, I will still have an insurance disk on my car but I might cancel my DD making me uninsured for the next 11 months. That is why Gardai wont accept just a disk from now on.) You also said that you are on a provisional, but were driving with your boyfriend. If he has a full license you are covered.

I intended to be very courteous as is my nature anyway!:D My boyfriend doesnt have a license so i know i will receive a fine for that its really the insurance that i am worried about! Thanks!

corktina · 05-12-2011 4:29pm

Shosh wrote: »

I just spoke with a solicitor on the phone and he said i will def get a fine for no full licensed driver and that all i can do is bring my insurance cert and we will go from there. I think i will try and talk to the gard beforehand and i am extremely shy so i would rather a solicitor speak on my behalf! The thought of standing up in front of everyone already gave me nightmares all last night!:(

ok, so the Court Appearance. It sounds horrific but it isn't a tenth as bad as you fear. It is very much like a production line, over in seconds. I'd certainly have a Solicitor and I would dress smartly but not overso. Be contrite, take all your paperwork, try to give the impression that you are a well brought up lass you will learn from this and not be back again

Don't fret too much. We all foul up at times, hopefully some of the others driving alone on provisionals will learn from your experiance.

The Jaw · 05-12-2011 4:38pm

corktina wrote: »

ok, so the Court Appearance. It sounds horrific but it isn't a tenth as bad as you fear. It is very much like a production line, over in seconds. I'd certainly have a Solicitor and I would dress smartly but not overso. Be contrite, take all your paperwork, try to give the impression that you are a well brought up lass you will learn from this and not be back again

Don't fret too much. We all foul up at times, hopefully some of the others driving alone on provisionals will learn from your experiance.

Corktina, I must say I think that is excellent advice all round and I would echo those sentiments.

In court tomorrow and confused!

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