Patrick Nulty: leaves Govt benches re: budget 2012

jasonc5432 · 07-12-2011 10:40AM #1

Irish politics is currently in a bad way according to many people -- for various reasons.

Variously, we criticize parties, individuals, policies, governments, and oppositions.

We should equally celebrate the good things about Irish politics.

In the face of yet another unfair budget -- designed to punish the most vulnerable in society (e.g. the disabled, the elderly) -- many of our current government are saying things like:

1. "I'm not proud of this budget ... but...."

or

2. "This is all Fianna Fail's fault"

or, when asked why we are cutting the disabled, while handing billions to unsecured bondholders from secondary markets, one government TD said:

3. "we have to pay the bondholders because if we dont the whole system will collapse"

1., above is at least honest -- whatever words follow this much used phrase often aren't.

2., above is, again, true TO A POINT. But, of course, it is NOT FF who made the most recent 800 million payment to unsecured bondholders (whether they would have or not is another matter). It is not FF who will make the next few billion payment either (whether they would have or not is another matter). So, while FF have been key to putting the country in the doldrums. Let's not play games and pretend that the guy who currently has the batton (FG and Labour) can blame FF when FG and Labour falls over (as they are currently doing with their ludicrous budget.

3., above, is where we find the kernel of the thing -- This budget, indeed ALL FF, FG, and Labour policy over this crisis, is designed to protect the richest (e.g. unsecured bondholders in failed institutions; total lack of an increase in taxation on the highest income earners).

It defends the richest by taking money from the most vulnerable in order to make our finances appear more desirable (even though a properly trained economist, or a well grounded lay person can see quite clearly that it actually takes money out of the real economy).

It is designed to make our finances look more desirable so we can continue to justify gigantic ministerial pensions, huge payments to bondholders, massive TD salaries, and ridiculous payments to CEOs in semi states, and various other wastes of OUR money -- the people of Ireland --- all the while, telling us WE are broke -- not broke enough to give billions to the already wealthy though!!

MOST of the current stock of politicians are fine with this, because it protects their own interests, and their buddies' interests, even if it screws over the most vulnerable and the people most innocent in this crisis -- low income earners.

However, Patrick Nulty has showed the way Irish politics should be:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/six-weeks-in-dail-eireann-and-patrick-nulty-is-a-rebel-2956226.html

[Quote/]
REBEL Labour TD Patrick Nulty walked off the Government benches warning that Budget 2012 should have targeted the wealthy.

The Dublin West deputy - the fourth to leave the coalition - denounced the measures as "unjust" and claimed they would damage Ireland's chances of recovery.

"I think a really difficult choice would have been to ask those who are wealthy in our society to contribute more," Mr Nulty said.

"It's profoundly unfair, it cuts payments for young people with disabilities, it takes away the fuel allowance from our elderly people and it undermines people trying to get back to work."

Mr Nulty, the party's newest TD, elected in October, became the third member of the party to bail out over budget cuts in the last few weeks. Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams had earlier pressured disgruntled backbenchers to revolt.

The 29-year-old said the Budget would hit people on low and average incomes disproportionately, lead to higher levels of unemployment while attacking the marginalised, the sick, the elderly and young people with disabilities.

"The household charge combined with the increase in VAT is deeply regressive, unfair and ultimately counterproductive," he said.

"People on low and average incomes will be disproportionately affected while the wealthy benefit from flat rate taxation levied in this manner."

Just last week, Mr Nulty pledged support to Labour veteran Tommy Broughan after he left the Government benches over the renewal of the bank guarantee scheme.

Mr Nulty, elected to the Dail more than a month ago in the Dublin West by-election, had called for the Fine Gael/Labour Government to revise its plans for the austerity Budget to protect low and middle earners.

Announcing his intention to rebel against the Labour leadership, and face expulsion from the parliamentary party, Mr Nulty insisted there was an alternative to austerity - targeting the wealthy.

"Irish concentration of wealth is one of the highest in the EU-15," he said.

"Some 28pc of all wealth - housing and financial wealth - is owned by the top 1% of adults. The Government should target this wealth."

Warning of thousands of job losses through capital spending reductions and public sector cutbacks, Mr Nulty also attacked child benefit cuts as "a very clear breach of the pledge" by Labour in the last general election.

Attacking other measures, including fuel allowance, health and disability cuts, he added: "I am not prepared to support measures which damage our economic recovery while attacking the weak, the sick, the marginalised and the vulnerable."

Last week, Tanaiste and Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said he was not surprised by Mr Broughan's opposition, but claimed he was confident no other backbenchers would revolt.

Mr Nulty is the fourth Government TD to leave the coalition. Alongside Mr Broughan, former Junior Minister Willie Penrose left over the closure of Columb Barracks in Mullingar while Denis Naughten was expelled from Fine Gael for refusing to support cutbacks at Roscommon hospital.

Mr Nulty accepted he would be kicked out of the party but insisted he would not resign.

"I will not vote for those savings. I will not vote for reductions in the fuel allowance. I will not vote for reductions in back to school allowances for parents when there are clear and credible alternatives available," he said.
[/Quote]

BOHtox · 07-12-2011 10:48AM

If you disagree with your party's budget that's fine. Don't throw your toys out of the pram about it though. Do something constructive. Meet with that department to try get it changed etc. What he did was a populist, self-indulgent act. He knew it would be a tough budget, surely. I'm a Fine Gaeler myself. Will I leave Fine Gael over their decision with regards to halving disability benefits for the sake of €22m? no, I will however speak to whom I can about changing it. I also don't think it was an unfair budget. The USC threshold was multiplied by 2 and a half.

Dirk Gently · 07-12-2011 11:01AM

Noob. did no one tell him he's suppose to abandon the government ship only in the months coming up to a GE. he jumped 4 years too early.

In fairness though he seems like a genuine guy so maybe he is just principled and seen no other option as he realised he had little or no influence to make amendments to policy from the labour back benches. He must have known walking was a possibility though when he used the labour machine to get elected in the recent by-election. Not sure if I admire that opportunism or not. It can be argued though (as he did himself) that he is actually staying true to labours principles by voting against the budget.

Sierra Oscar · 07-12-2011 11:16AM

Just six weeks ago Patrick Nutly was telling people in Dublin West that he would stick by the government as we needed to do what was right for the country.

Now he has walked out of the Labour parliamentary party and in the process he has broken a key commitment that he made personally during the By-Election.

Padraig Mor · 07-12-2011 11:16AM

Patrick Nulty is a pathetic ship-jumping rat. I can't believe people are actually taken in by his act.

Fratton Fred · 07-12-2011 11:17AM

He got elected on the back of a labour ticket, then a few weeks later he jumps ship.

He should stand down tbh not just drop the party whip, he knew what he was signing up for so he is either stupid, a chancer or dishonest.

Sierra Oscar · 07-12-2011 11:19AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He should stand down tbh not just drop the party whip, he knew what he was signing up for so he is either stupid, a chancer or dishonest.

Indeed - let him run on an independent ticket if he wants to be an independent.

jasonc5432 · 07-12-2011 11:24AM

Nulty said he'd walk if there were cuts to child benefit and a raising of third level fees.

That's what happened, so he did.

I know that upsets the back slapping, we're all in this together, party political, money grabber, brigade.

Sorry about that lads.

Ye must be fiercely disappointed to see a real man who will stand up for his principles and his voters

As opposed to your crowd of yahoos, who couldnt care less.

Protect Enda to the death lads! Defend the leader. Sad

irishh_bob · 07-12-2011 11:28AM

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Irish politics is currently in a bad way according to many people -- for various reasons.

Variously, we criticize parties, individuals, policies, governments, and oppositions.

We should equally celebrate the good things about Irish politics.

In the face of yet another unfair budget -- designed to punish the most vulnerable in society (e.g. the disabled, the elderly) -- many of our current government are saying things like:

1. "I'm not proud of this budget ... but...."

or

2. "This is all Fianna Fail's fault"

or, when asked why we are cutting the disabled, while handing billions to unsecured bondholders from secondary markets, one government TD said:

3. "we have to pay the bondholders because if we dont the whole system will collapse"

1., above is at least honest -- whatever words follow this much used phrase often aren't.

2., above is, again, true TO A POINT. But, of course, it is NOT FF who made the most recent 800 million payment to unsecured bondholders (whether they would have or not is another matter). It is not FF who will make the next few billion payment either (whether they would have or not is another matter). So, while FF have been key to putting the country in the doldrums. Let's not play games and pretend that the guy who currently has the batton (FG and Labour) can blame FF when FG and Labour falls over (as they are currently doing with their ludicrous budget.

3., above, is where we find the kernel of the thing -- This budget, indeed ALL FF, FG, and Labour policy over this crisis, is designed to protect the richest (e.g. unsecured bondholders in failed institutions; total lack of an increase in taxation on the highest income earners).

It defends the richest by taking money from the most vulnerable in order to make our finances appear more desirable (even though a properly trained economist, or a well grounded lay person can see quite clearly that it actually takes money out of the real economy).

It is designed to make our finances look more desirable so we can continue to justify gigantic ministerial pensions, huge payments to bondholders, massive TD salaries, and ridiculous payments to CEOs in semi states, and various other wastes of OUR money -- the people of Ireland --- all the while, telling us WE are broke -- not broke enough to give billions to the already wealthy though!!

MOST of the current stock of politicians are fine with this, because it protects their own interests, and their buddies' interests, even if it screws over the most vulnerable and the people most innocent in this crisis -- low income earners.

However, Patrick Nulty has showed the way Irish politics should be:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/six-weeks-in-dail-eireann-and-patrick-nulty-is-a-rebel-2956226.html

[Quote/]
REBEL Labour TD Patrick Nulty walked off the Government benches warning that Budget 2012 should have targeted the wealthy.

The Dublin West deputy - the fourth to leave the coalition - denounced the measures as "unjust" and claimed they would damage Ireland's chances of recovery.

"I think a really difficult choice would have been to ask those who are wealthy in our society to contribute more," Mr Nulty said.

"It's profoundly unfair, it cuts payments for young people with disabilities, it takes away the fuel allowance from our elderly people and it undermines people trying to get back to work."

Mr Nulty, the party's newest TD, elected in October, became the third member of the party to bail out over budget cuts in the last few weeks. Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams had earlier pressured disgruntled backbenchers to revolt.

The 29-year-old said the Budget would hit people on low and average incomes disproportionately, lead to higher levels of unemployment while attacking the marginalised, the sick, the elderly and young people with disabilities.

"The household charge combined with the increase in VAT is deeply regressive, unfair and ultimately counterproductive," he said.

"People on low and average incomes will be disproportionately affected while the wealthy benefit from flat rate taxation levied in this manner."

Just last week, Mr Nulty pledged support to Labour veteran Tommy Broughan after he left the Government benches over the renewal of the bank guarantee scheme.

Mr Nulty, elected to the Dail more than a month ago in the Dublin West by-election, had called for the Fine Gael/Labour Government to revise its plans for the austerity Budget to protect low and middle earners.

Announcing his intention to rebel against the Labour leadership, and face expulsion from the parliamentary party, Mr Nulty insisted there was an alternative to austerity - targeting the wealthy.

"Irish concentration of wealth is one of the highest in the EU-15," he said.

"Some 28pc of all wealth - housing and financial wealth - is owned by the top 1% of adults. The Government should target this wealth."

Warning of thousands of job losses through capital spending reductions and public sector cutbacks, Mr Nulty also attacked child benefit cuts as "a very clear breach of the pledge" by Labour in the last general election.

Attacking other measures, including fuel allowance, health and disability cuts, he added: "I am not prepared to support measures which damage our economic recovery while attacking the weak, the sick, the marginalised and the vulnerable."

Last week, Tanaiste and Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said he was not surprised by Mr Broughan's opposition, but claimed he was confident no other backbenchers would revolt.

Mr Nulty is the fourth Government TD to leave the coalition. Alongside Mr Broughan, former Junior Minister Willie Penrose left over the closure of Columb Barracks in Mullingar while Denis Naughten was expelled from Fine Gael for refusing to support cutbacks at Roscommon hospital.

Mr Nulty accepted he would be kicked out of the party but insisted he would not resign.

"I will not vote for those savings. I will not vote for reductions in the fuel allowance. I will not vote for reductions in back to school allowances for parents when there are clear and credible alternatives available," he said.

[/QUOTE]

the newley elected labout TD nulty shares a constituency with joe higgins , i suspect you need extra strong socilist crudentials when competing with uncle joe , more self preservation here

Dirk Gently · 07-12-2011 11:37AM

irishh_bob wrote: »

the newley elected labout TD nulty shares a constituency with joe higgins , i suspect you need extra strong socilist crudentials when competing with uncle joe , more self preservation here

Hardly. leo V shares that constituency, as well as Joan burton. They also returned the late Brian Lenihan consistently. Joe Higgins is always just about above or just below the quota so it doesn't make sense to split that vote. There's a much bigger vote that goes towards the right and the centre.

godscop · 07-12-2011 11:37AM

A Politician stands up for ordinary working people and gets abuse for doing it. He has on many occasions said " the seat does not belong to me or any party it belongs to the people of Dublin West " So how many people in Dublin West thinks this was a fair budget ? Not many i would imagine. The easy thing was to say nothing and collect a nice salary. Fair play to the man he has my respect.

Sierra Oscar · 07-12-2011 11:41AM

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Nulty said he'd walk if there were cuts to child benefit and a raising of third level fees.

Sorry, but this simply is not true. During the by-election Nulty adamantly stated again and again that he would vote with the government, recognising that this was the only way he would get elected as the constituents wanted a constructive TD. Nulty did however say that, within the Labour parliamentary party, he would work to advocate his core beliefs and that he would continue to remain within the parliamentary party to ensure he had a voice in government and so as he could represent his constituents. He stood on the platform that he would be a TD in government.

The fact of the matter is that he lied on that commitment - and now we have a thread which is claiming that a politician that lies to his constituents is a hero. If Nulty has a problem with Labour breaking pre-election pledges then maybe he should examine his own behaviour during the Dublin West by-election and resign his seat.

Also, there is little point attempting to claim that Nulty did not make these commitments and that it is based on hearsay at the doors - he made the commitment on Drivetime during the election which is available online.

jasonc5432 · 07-12-2011 11:42AM

godscop wrote: »

A Politician stands up for ordinary working people and gets abuse for doing it. He has on many occasions said " the seat does not belong to me or any part it belongs to the people of Dublin West " So how many people in Dublin West thinks this was a fair budget ? Not many i would imagine. The easy thing was to say nothing and collect a nice salary. Fair play to the man he has my respect.

If there's one thing politicians HATE it's when young bucks come along thinking they will be all airy fairy and stand up for the PEOPLE!!

The PEOPLE dont ya know!!

Who does he think he is??

The party is FAR more important than the PEOPLE.

The 'people'! Hippy!

He should keep his mouth shut and do what Enda and the big boys tell him.

Good old fashioned Ireland

death1234567 · 07-12-2011 11:44AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He got elected on the back of a labour ticket, then a few weeks later he jumps ship.

+1. Nice of him to use labours resources to get elected and then jump ship this first time a hard budget, that was planned before he stood for election and was never going to change, came along. Clown.

Cork boy 55 · 07-12-2011 12:16PM

He should resign his seat

jmayo · 07-12-2011 12:17PM

godscop wrote: »

A Politician stands up for ordinary working people and gets abuse for doing it. He has on many occasions said " the seat does not belong to me or any part it belongs to the people of Dublin West " So how many people in Dublin West thinks this was a fair budget ? Not many i would imagine. The easy thing was to say nothing and collect a nice salary. Fair play to the man he has my respect.

I bet nobody ever thinks a budget is fair, because people usually think that anything that impacts on them is unfair.
It's always fairer if someone else pays.

jasonc5432 wrote: »

If there's one thing politicians HATE it's when young bucks come along thinking they will be all airy fairy and stand up for the PEOPLE!!

The PEOPLE dont ya know!!

Who does he think he is??

The party is FAR more important than the PEOPLE.

The 'people'! Hippy!

He should keep his mouth shut and do what Enda and the big boys tell him.

Good old fashioned Ireland

Oh FFS.
This is nothing new and the fact you are lauding this means you are either falling for this and are bloody naive or an activist working on his behalf spreading the word about how great he is.

There have been many of these ship jumpers.
The ff party of the last Dail was full of them and they weren't young turks either, but old seasoned pros who acted in self preservation.
You ha dmattie mcgrath, the two in Sligo and joe behan in Wicklow.
They voted against one thing (sometimes a local issue such as hospital closures) that they knew would pass anyway.
But lo and behold you often found they still voted with the government and their party on other issues.

BTW what do you think should be done with regards the budget ?
Should we just continue spending money we do not have ?
Or should we tax the middle class out of existence ?
And please tax the rich is not an answer to all our ills.
Granted it would help a bit if top retired public servants did not get huge lump sums and pensions.
Likewise it would also help if the public service wage bill was drastically cut.
Oh and that includes top managers all the way down to the lowly admin.

Lapin · 07-12-2011 12:23PM

Patrick Nulty has proved that the party whip in a government with a large majority isn't worth a damn.
If I was a Labour voter in Dublin West I'd feel cheated. Its now being said that it would only be a matter of time before he threw his rattle out of the pram. He is effectively an independent TD now who got in on the back of other peoples hard work, trust and funds.

He should reimburse the labour party the costs of his recent election campaign.

As for this OP

jasonc5432 wrote: »

In the face of yet another unfair budget -- designed to punish the most vulnerable in society (e.g. the disabled, the elderly) --

How exactly were the elderly punished in this weeks budget?
Not that I want to see anyone punished of course, but they have escaped any direct cuts in their income or pensions yet again.
I think its time they were subject to the same burdens as everyone else. We're all part of the same society.

irishh_bob · 07-12-2011 12:24PM

Dirk Gently wrote: »

Hardly. leo V shares that constituency, as well as Joan burton. They also returned the late Brian Lenihan consistently. Joe Higgins is always just about above or just below the quota so it doesn't make sense to split that vote. There's a much bigger vote that goes towards the right and the centre.

i hardly think nulty is competing for leo varadkars vote and joan burton is labour royalty , he wont be taking her seat either

Dirk Gently · 07-12-2011 12:49PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

i hardly think nulty is competing for leo varadkars vote and joan burton is labour royalty , he wont be taking her seat either

I think that was my point. Self preservation would be better served remaining in labour and going through on the back of Joan Burtons vote. Now he ha to compete with Higgins who already struggles to get elected himself. Much bigger vote share had he stuck with labour. Now he has no party machine to campaign with him at the next election and he's fighting for a smaller left vote.

Pride Fighter · 07-12-2011 01:02PM

Fair play to him, he's standing by his constituents and his convictions. Something to be admired.

Chucky the tree · 07-12-2011 01:24PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Fair play to him, he's standing by his constituents and his convictions. Something to be admired.

No he's not. He is doing the opposite. He ran as a Labour candidate saying he would support what Labour would do in Government not matter what. They then voted him in and now he has gone back on his word. Extremely cowardly of him not to stand down and run again and give the people of his constituency the chance to vote him in as an independent.

gandalf · 07-12-2011 01:25PM

Perfect just what this country needs another TD who acts like a county councillor and does not act in the interest of the citizens of the whole island.

Parish Politics is one of the main reasons we as a country are in the mess we are because too many of our TDs concentrated on local issues and missed seeing and managing the bigger picture.

One would also have to question this mans ethics in seeking election as a labour candidate knowing the unpopular and unpalatable decisions were going to be part of the coming budget when he got elected. If he is truely a man of honour and principles as some suggest he should resign and seek election again under his honest manifesto.

Sir Oxman · 07-12-2011 01:27PM

http://www.labour.ie/patricknulty/

Labour are quick off the mark!
Broughan's page was gone within the day last week as well.

Godge · 07-12-2011 01:35PM

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Nulty said he'd walk if there were cuts to child benefit and a raising of third level fees.

That's what happened, so he did.

I know that upsets the back slapping, we're all in this together, party political, money grabber, brigade.

Sorry about that lads.

Ye must be fiercely disappointed to see a real man who will stand up for his principles and his voters

As opposed to your crowd of yahoos, who couldnt care less.

Protect Enda to the death lads! Defend the leader. Sad

I am one of his voters. I gave him a preference in the bye-election which got him elected ahead of the FF candidate on the basis that he was a government candidate.

He won't be getting a preference from me the next time and he certainly wasn't standing up for me.

godscop · 07-12-2011 01:35PM

He tried to vote according to the wishes of his constituents and he's dishonest?People constantly complaining that YOUR TD's show no backbone and when they do they are attention seeking and dishonest.Laughable if it weren't so sad.

Dirk Gently · 07-12-2011 01:36PM

I'm not sure he was doing the parish pump thing Gandalf, I mean it was a national budget, not a pothole allocation fund.

meglome · 07-12-2011 01:40PM

gandalf wrote: »

Perfect just what this country needs another TD who acts like a county councillor and does not act in the interest of the citizens of the whole island.

Parish Politics is one of the main reasons we as a country are in the mess we are because too many of our TDs concentrated on local issues and missed seeing and managing the bigger picture.

One would also have to question this mans ethics in seeking election as a labour candidate knowing the unpopular and unpalatable decisions were going to be part of the coming budget when he got elected. If he is truely a man of honour and principles as some suggest he should resign and seek election again under his honest manifesto.

It really is the usual parish pump bull. I would find it incredibly difficult to believe that any member of the government didn't know there was going to be some tough choices. And lets be honest the budget was not even particularly tough.

Estebano · 07-12-2011 01:47PM

Patrick Nulty is a Socialist Party hack masquerading as a wooly lefty Labour Party member.

bedrock#1 · 07-12-2011 01:50PM

gandalf wrote: »

Perfect just what this country needs another TD who acts like a county councillor and does not act in the interest of the citizens of the whole island.

Parish Politics is one of the main reasons we as a country are in the mess we are because too many of our TDs concentrated on local issues and missed seeing and managing the bigger picture.

One would also have to question this mans ethics in seeking election as a labour candidate knowing the unpopular and unpalatable decisions were going to be part of the coming budget when he got elected. If he is truely a man of honour and principles as some suggest he should resign and seek election again under his honest manifesto.

The problem here is the electoral system.

If we want to get rid of the 'parish pump' politics a mixed or closed list system would be better suited - but the problem is that the majority of the Irish electorate are happy with the system we have.

http://www.tcd.ie/ines/ - if you want to review the entire Irish National Election Study

or here is a quote from the link below

http://www.tcd.ie/Political_Science/staff/michael_gallagher/IrishElectSys.php

Research (for example, the Irish National Election Study) shows that the most important criterion for Irish voters when deciding whom to vote for is the ability of candidates to look after the needs of the local constituency; the lesson to be drawn from this is that it is best if the power to choose among candidates of the same party is removed from Irish voters, because the voters are liable to use this power to reward candidates who will be active locally but may well not have the ability to play a role in politics at national level. Even if they do elect candidates with that ability, those individuals, once elected, will find they do not have the time to contribute to national-level politics. Hence there is a strong case for adopting an electoral system that removes from voters the power to choose among candidates of the same party, such as a closed list system (as in Portugal or Spain), a mixed system (as in Germany or Hungary, where some of the MPs are elected from single-member constituencies while the others are elected from closed lists), or one based on single-member constituencies (as in France and the UK) where each party has only one standard-bearer

(Edit) - There is also the possibility of granting greater power to local councils to raise taxes and look after 'pothole' issues themselves thereby taking the responsibility away from members of the Dail. Real decentralization could work if handled properly.

Sierra Oscar · 07-12-2011 01:53PM

godscop wrote: »

He tried to vote according to the wishes of his constituents and he's dishonest?People constantly complaining that YOUR TD's show no backbone and when they do they are attention seeking and dishonest.Laughable if it weren't so sad.

Did you read the thread?

He ran on the platform that he would be a government supporting TD, and he would be active in the parliamentary party making the case for his constituents. He stated that even if he disagreed with the government he would vote with it in order to ensure he remained in the PP, where he could put forward his alternative options. That was his commitment and that is what got him elected. He broke that commitment at the first opportunity and now has no influence in the Labour parliamentary party.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 07-12-2011 02:21PM

I disagree with his decision but I think a lot of the criticism is illogical.

The populism line makes no sense. He's now less likely to be re-elected. A polulist would have waited until it looked like the government might fall.

What I like is this is an attack on the whip system. He didn't resign, he just voted against the government. Happens all the time in Westminister.

I hate this system where it looks like everyone in the party agrees on everything. If a member disagrees he/she should be allowed express that.

Due to the above I think he genuinely thinks the government went too far in the budget. I disagree myself, but if I didn't I'd be supporting him in walking.

d2ww · 07-12-2011 10:51PM

Is he eligible for a supplement for being an Independent now? I think it's around €20k/yr.

Good loser · 08-12-2011 12:29AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I disagree with his decision but I think a lot of the criticism is illogical.

The populism line makes no sense. He's now less likely to be re-elected. A polulist would have waited until it looked like the government might fall.

What I like is this is an attack on the whip system. He didn't resign, he just voted against the government. Happens all the time in Westminister.

I hate this system where it looks like everyone in the party agrees on everything. If a member disagrees he/she should be allowed express that.

Due to the above I think he genuinely thinks the government went too far in the budget. I disagree myself, but if I didn't I'd be supporting him in walking.

He obviously should have waited a year or so - there would have been plenty of opportunities.

As well as being a liar he must be thick.

Einhard · 08-12-2011 01:56AM

jasonc5432 wrote: »

If there's one thing politicians HATE it's when young bucks come along thinking they will be all airy fairy and stand up for the PEOPLE!!

The PEOPLE dont ya know!!

Who does he think he is??

The party is FAR more important than the PEOPLE.

The 'people'! Hippy!

He should keep his mouth shut and do what Enda and the big boys tell him.

Good old fashioned Ireland

The people of Ireland voted FG and Labour into power knowing that they would implement a series of harsh austerity budgets. The people of Dublin SW voted Nulty into office knowing that his party would shortly thereafter implement a harsh austerity budget. Patrick Nulty may have been standing for some people, some narrow sectional interest which might help him keep his seat in future, but he was certainly not standing up for the mass of the people as you imply. The people spoke in the Spring. They voted for austerity. Can we stop pretending therefore that the people are somehow victims of a massive FG/Labour about turn? We knew what we were voting for, and now we're getting it.

dsmythy · 08-12-2011 02:46AM

Emotional responses won't help the country. Poor aul jasonc is just short of crying. Do people really think the government sit around a table doing evil laughs thinking up ways to hurt poor people? Everything they do is for the best interests of the country. Or so that's meant to be the case. If they're doing it for themselves then they wouldn't have cut anything and flew to victory in the next election until the economy inevitably collapsed completely.

The current government are working to a plan they think will get Ireland's economy growing again at a solid rate in about 5-8 years from now. They're 1 year into their plan. So yes it's not the quick fix plan some seem to want. In order to get to consistant growth in 5 years time it takes pain in the short term. You can't get something for nothing.

Old fashioned Ireland by the way would be to kick out Fine Gael/Labour at the next election for not providing immediate gratifying 1997-2004 style success. Guess who will be in charge then? Old indeed.

K-9 · 08-12-2011 06:50AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I disagree with his decision but I think a lot of the criticism is illogical.

The populism line makes no sense. He's now less likely to be re-elected. A polulist would have waited until it looked like the government might fall.

What I like is this is an attack on the whip system. He didn't resign, he just voted against the government. Happens all the time in Westminister.

I hate this system where it looks like everyone in the party agrees on everything. If a member disagrees he/she should be allowed express that.

Due to the above I think he genuinely thinks the government went too far in the budget. I disagree myself, but if I didn't I'd be supporting him in walking.

The whip system is the problem, he should be free to vote as he wishes on a national budget.

I don't know, a lot of posters around here go on about changing the system, list systems, that type of thing, but seem to have no problem with the whip system in this case. Maybe his ideology is the issue as I don't see parish pump politics at work here.

Is mise le key · 08-12-2011 07:29AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Just six weeks ago Patrick Nutly was telling people in Dublin West that he would stick by the government as we needed to do what was right for the country.

Now he has walked out of the Labour parliamentary party and in the process he has broken a key commitment that he made personally during the By-Election.

So perhaps he decided to break one committment because he sees all of the committments of the labour party broken, he got elected, tried to influence to policy making of the party on the budget & then had to make the tough decision to break his promise as he could not stand over a multiple of broken promises from the rest of the crew in labour/FG.

You can try & paint it up anyway you want, he tried to stop the madness of labour reneging on all their pre election promises & couldnt stand over all of that. It send a clear message out, another honest guy will take a fall on principles, as he will not be elected again most likeley.

BOHtox wrote: »

I'm a Fine Gaeler myself. Will I leave Fine Gael over their decision with regards to halving disability benefits for 22m? no,.

And therein lies the problem with people in ireland, you would follow your party off a cliff rather than change for what you know is right, as i said previously on this forum somewhere, i support the ULA as it is right now, if in the future the principles they stand for now become eroded by right wing policies & the organisation is compromised, i will look to see what party/organisation is standing for true Socialist principles then.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Sorry, but this simply is not true.......................he made the commitment on Drivetime during the election which is available online.

Lapin wrote: »

How exactly were the elderly punished in this weeks budget?
Not that I want to see anyone punished of course, but they have escaped any direct cuts in their income or pensions yet again.
.

Who do you think the fuel allowance being cut by €120 a year will hit the worst?

Godge wrote: »

I am one of his voters. I gave him a preference in the bye-election which got him elected ahead of the FF candidate on the basis that he was a government candidate.

He won't be getting a preference from me the next time and he certainly wasn't standing up for me.

Obviously he wasnt as right wing as you thought:pac:

meglome wrote: »

And lets be honest the budget was not even particularly tough.

Ah, so we can expect to meet up with your good self & leo, sipping cocktails in the airport bar while we all wait for our business class flights to monaco for a break in 2012:rolleyes:

See you there,

anymore · 08-12-2011 11:00AM

godscop wrote: »

A Politician stands up for ordinary working people and gets abuse for doing it. He has on many occasions said " the seat does not belong to me or any party it belongs to the people of Dublin West " So how many people in Dublin West thinks this was a fair budget ? Not many i would imagine. The easy thing was to say nothing and collect a nice salary. Fair play to the man he has my respect.

Judging by the letters from labour prty members in today;s IR Times which condemn him, Mr Noulty is seen more as a publicity seeking politician of the kind which this country has come to know only too well. Take the free labour of party volunteers and then throw it in thier faces by tking the easy path. Take the power and the salary but none of the responsibility. He should join FF - that particular party specialises in ' Look at me I am not a member anymore - at least not for the next five minutes' !
Still what does Labour mean anymore? , Old labour, New labour, Democratic Left labour, political wing of the PS Labour, Sons/Nephews/brothers of wealthy bankers Labour ?

godscop · 08-12-2011 11:37AM

anymore wrote: »

Judging by the letters from labour prty members in today;s IR Times which condemn him, Mr Noulty is seen more as a publicity seeking politician of the kind which this country has come to know only too well. Take the free labour of party volunteers and then throw it in thier faces by tking the easy path. Take the power and the salary but none of the responsibility. He should join FF - that particular party specialises in ' Look at me I am not a member anymore - at least not for the next five minutes' !
Still what does Labour mean anymore? , Old labour, New labour, Democratic Left labour, political wing of the PS Labour, Sons/Nephews/brothers of wealthy bankers Labour ?

Not one mention of Patrick Nulty in todays Irish Times letters page

anymore · 08-12-2011 12:04PM

godscop wrote: »

Not one mention of Patrick Nulty in todays Irish Times letters page

Actaully it is a full article in Opinions sec, sorry !
" OPINION: IT IS only a few weeks ago that, along with thousands of other residents of Dublin West, I voted for Patrick Nulty as a Labour politician to strengthen the party’s hand in government. That is why it is so disappointing that he has turned his coat already......"
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1208/1224308740196.html

godscop · 08-12-2011 12:38PM

anymore wrote: »

Actaully it is a full article in Opinions sec, sorry !
" OPINION: IT IS only a few weeks ago that, along with thousands of other residents of Dublin West, I voted for Patrick Nulty as a Labour politician to strengthen the party’s hand in government. That is why it is so disappointing that he has turned his coat already......"
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1208/1224308740196.html

Ok thanks for that. Its one opinion and its alot different from,Judging by the letters from labour party members in today;s IR Times which condemn him !! Im sure plenty will feel let down by his actions, equally plenty are happy he did what he did.

anymore · 08-12-2011 12:42PM

godscop wrote: »

Ok thanks for that. Its one opinion and its alot different from,Judging by the letters from labour party members in today;s IR Times which condemn him !! Im sure plenty will feel let down by his actions, equally plenty are happy he did what he did.

No I have read two letters or more today from labour people - in some paper online _ I will try to find them again.

Dirk Gently · 08-12-2011 12:50PM

^^^^ so it was one opinion piece by one management consultant?

I don't know Patrick Nulty and I'm not too interested in what random labour back benchers do but some of the hysterics in this thread are a bit OTT. It's a bit like a post boom herd mentality where by everything is decried as parish pump politics without actually analysing what happened to see if it was actually parish pump or not.

Take the barracks closure, that was clearly parish pumping to protect his own seat. Was this the same thing? I don't think it was. The charge against Patrick Nulty in my opinion is opportunism and I'm open to be corrrected on that because I don't know what assurances where given to him and wha obsticles he has faced since becoming a TD. He may well have found himself out side the room and unable to influence any decisions. Perhaps he encountered a democratic deficit when it came to policy and couldn't accept a cabinet making all the decisions without back bench imput. I simply dont know how much of his decision came from autocratic practices in government and how much was his own plan to get elected off the back of the labour party while already planning to walk come budget time.

By walking though he hasn't struck any great blow for his community. He has lost a party machine to support and campaign for him at the next election. Joe Higgins will mop up most of his ideological votes and Leo V and Joan B will cruise home on the larger centre right vote. He hasn't set himself up nicely at all for re-election, in fact he has damaged his own chances greatly by walking from the government. I don't see how that's parish pump politics.

In my view one of two things happened:

(1) A long time labour member made a conscious decision to run on the party ticket with a view to getting elected and going independent.

(2) A long time labour member stood in good faith and got elected to the party whos core values he believes in. Once on the government benches he became disillusioned with the decisions that party was making as he felt they no longer represented their own core values. He grew frustrated with his powerless position on the back bench to influence anything within the party and felt he could no longer support them.

I dont know which of the two above he chose to do but parish pump politics does not apply. He did vote with the government on numerous aspects of the budget before voting against. He didn't resign from the labour party, they kicked him out. If you want to blame anything, blame the whip system.

conor.hogan.2 · 08-12-2011 02:44PM

The party whip system is terrible, we need more people willing to break it should they disagree strongly enough.

Killer Pigeon · 08-12-2011 03:15PM

I would put Nulty as being in the more "left" side of the Labour camp. He was one of the people who voted again the Labour/Fine Gael coalition just after the election at one of the Party's national conventions. I think that he's kept the same position he's always kept to be honest.

Chucky the tree · 08-12-2011 03:57PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I would put Nulty as being in the more "left" side of the Labour camp. He was one of the people who voted again the Labour/Fine Gael coalition just after the election at one of the Party's national conventions. I think that he's kept the same position he's always kept to be honest.

So why did he run for Labour in the first place when they were in a coalition with Fine Gael if he didn't agree with it?

Killer Pigeon · 08-12-2011 04:18PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So why did he run for Labour in the first place when they were in a coalition with Fine Gael if he didn't agree with it?

Simple, he's using the system to get elected to promote his own ideas. The chances of him getting elected under, say, the ULA or independent card would be slim compared to the Labour card. He's one of those Labour Left idealists who want to bring the Labour Party back to their core founding principles. The only way one can turn their ideas into policy, instead of fruitlessly ranting from the opposition, is to change the system from the inside.

If you can't beat them, join them.

sarumite · 08-12-2011 04:32PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Simple, he's using the system to get elected to promote his own ideas. The chances of him getting elected under, say, the ULA or independent card would be slim compared to the Labour card. He's one of those Labour Left idealists who want to bring the Labour Party back to their core founding principles. The only way one can turn their ideas into policy, instead of fruitlessly ranting from the opposition, is to change the system from the inside.

If you can't beat them, join them.

Not exactly an honest approach to getting elected if that is the case.

Chucky the tree · 08-12-2011 04:41PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Simple, he's using the system to get elected to promote his own ideas. The chances of him getting elected under, say, the ULA or independent card would be slim compared to the Labour card. He's one of those Labour Left idealists who want to bring the Labour Party back to their core founding principles. The only way one can turn their ideas into policy, instead of fruitlessly ranting from the opposition, is to change the system from the inside.

If you can't beat them, join them.

Pretty scummy and dishonest so. Hardly the actions of a "hero" as OP called him.

blahfckingblah · 08-12-2011 05:21PM

maybe its genuine, but to me it looked like he used labour to get elected and needed an excuse to get away from them. It seems too unlikely that he had a 180 degree turn in opinions in 6 weeks. I can however see why he would become disillusioned with labour

Killer Pigeon · 08-12-2011 06:42PM

sarumite wrote: »

Not exactly an honest approach to getting elected if that is the case.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Pretty scummy and dishonest so. Hardly the actions of a "hero" as OP called him.

Fight fire with fire. It's the only way you can break an already corrupt system.

Anyway, I don't expect much from Labour, they have a long history of going back on their election promises anyway. I don't know why people care so much about some new naive Labour backbencher with very little sway when the real and most damaging corruption is in the top echelons of the Labour Party.

Saying this, however, I would have more respect for Nulty than others in the Labour Party. I'd love to hear one rational argument against him deciding to put his head above the parapet, speaking his mind and, in hindsight, representing the lower income earnings that his party prides itself in speaking for. The Labour Party has diverged massively from their pre-election promises, yet some people think Nulty should resign over defending something good even though it contravened some of his own election promises? Surely if Nulty ought to resign, then nearly every other member of the Labour parliamentary party ought to resign also.

Patrick Nulty: leaves Govt benches re: budget 2012

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