Quoted and Actual Self Build costs in 2011 - Mod warning in Post No. 1

just do it · 26-10-2011 7:52pm

Lemlin wrote: »

TIP 1 One tip I'd say for people is that agricultural shows are great. I got more info at Virginia show than I got at the Ideal Homes or Self Build Expo!

TIP 2 Also, keep an eye out for warehouse and liquidation sales. My bathroom stuff was sitting in my brother's house 18 months. Furniture has been there since February and we moved in in September. If you know you're going to need the stuff and its at rock bottom prices, buy it and store it.

Good tips! I heard alright that the ploughing is a good spot for building info.

afterburn1 · 10-11-2011 11:51pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm attaching a picture I have from back in December 2009. It's the only picture I have here in work and shows the outside of the house just before the sun room roof was finished.

The MHRV is a Brink system. Ducting is flexible and not rigid but I priced both and didn't think the difference in performance was worth the extra cash. Brink didn't install it though. The same company did the geothermal, underfloor and MHRV.

The kitchen is casa compagna character oak. Local fitter from Monaghan did it.

Fine looking house. As a matter of interest what part of cavan are you in? I live in west cavan and hope to build sometime in the new year. If I could manage €70 or €75 per sq ft I'd be delighted. Couldn't really afford to go above that to be honest!

BryanF · 11-11-2011 1:30am

afterburn1 wrote: »

Fine looking house. As a matter of interest what part of cavan are you in? I live in west cavan and hope to build sometime in the new year. If I could manage €70 or €75 per sq ft I'd be delighted. Couldn't really afford to go above that to be honest!

what do you mean? could you not reduce the size of the house? and go for a higher spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes?

sas · 11-11-2011 9:46am

BryanF wrote: »

what do you mean? could you not reduce the size of the house? and go for a higher spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes?

This one gets trotted out alot here and I don't agree with it. This only works if you've the cash for the build, in a mortgage case it doesn't and this is the majority of cases.

The mortgage you can get will be based on the value of the property.

At the same location a smaller house will be worth less (generally) and hence the mortgage amount will be less i.e. the price per sq ft won't change much.

ShiverinEskimo · 11-11-2011 11:57am

sas wrote: »

This one gets trotted out alot here and I don't agree with it. This only works if you've the cash for the build, in a mortgage case it doesn't and this is the majority of cases.

The mortgage you can get will be based on the value of the property.

At the same location a smaller house will be worth less (generally) and hence the mortgage amount will be less i.e. the price per sq ft won't change much.

Isn't your mortgage based on the quotes/costings? A smaller house to a higher spec will cost the same as a larger house to a lower spec - when you approach the bank doesn't the mortgage granted match the projected cost as per your quotes or quantity surveyors reports?

sas · 11-11-2011 12:09pm

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Isn't your mortgage based on the quotes/costings? A smaller house to a higher spec will cost the same as a larger house to a lower spec - when you approach the bank doesn't the mortgage granted match the projected cost as per your quotes or quantity surveyors reports?

The maximum amount the bank will loan you is limited by the valuation of the completed property.

So, no, that's absolutely not the case.

You are required to show that you have sufficient funds to build the house to completion based on the mortgage the bank will give you and potentially your own savings. That's where the quotes\surveyors reports come in. However, if it's going to cost more than it's worth, the bank won't loan you that money

If it worked the way you've described the situation could easily arise where the amount loaned is more than the value of the property i.e. negative equity. This is a bad situation for the bank to find themselves in naturally enough.

ShiverinEskimo · 11-11-2011 12:12pm

sas wrote: »

The maximum amount the bank will loan you is limited by the valuation of the completed property.

So, no, that's absolutely not the case.

You are required to show that you have sufficient funds to build the house to completion based on the mortgage the bank will give you and potentially your own savings. That's where the quotes\surveyors reports come in. However, if it's going to cost more than it's worth, the bank won't loan you that money

If it worked the way you've described the situation could easily arise where the amount loaned is more than the value of the property i.e. negative equity. This is a bad situation for the bank to find themselves in naturally enough.

My point though is that I honestly cannot see a case where the cost of building any realtively normal property (as in not some modern-art style job that would be too níche) would exceed the value of the finished house but there you go - guess I'm being naive.

I know if I go ahead and build my 4 bedroom house on half an acre etc. for about 200k I would be extremely shocked if it turned out to be worth less than 200k.

sas · 11-11-2011 12:20pm

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

My point though is that I honestly cannot see a case where the cost of building any realtively normal property (as in not some modern-art style job that would be too níche) would exceed the value of the finished house but there you go - guess I'm being naive.

I know if I go ahead and build my 4 bedroom house on half an acre etc. for about 200k I would be extremely shocked if it turned out to be worth less than 200k.

The point you've just described is not what you said in your earlier post.

I believe that it is the case in this country that high spec builds command very little premium over low spec builds. People are more swayed by nonsense such as "aren't the curtains lovely".

A 2000 sq foot house at location 'A' will in most cases get valued higher than a higher spec 1500 sq foot house at location 'A'. Even if the larger house is built really REALLY badly. This is yet another problem with the situation here but as this is mostly cultural there's not alot can be done about it, I personally feel that the we favour quantity over quality most days.

afterburn1 · 11-11-2011 12:29pm

BryanF wrote: »

what do you mean? could you not reduce the size of the house? and go for a higher spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes?

Sorry if I confused anyone, I should have mentioned I'm hoping to build a House around 1500 sq ft for €90,000 to €100,000. I borrowed €30,000 to buy the site, I have the aforementioned amount for the build from the sale of my last house.

sydthebeat · 11-11-2011 12:36pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

Sorry if I confused anyone, I should have mentioned I'm hoping to build a House around 1500 sq ft for €90,000 to €100,000. I borrowed €30,000 to buy the site, I have the aforementioned amount for the build from the sale of my last house.

it would be a very basic build for those figures.

have you excluded all other costs apart from build? ie profesional fees, conveyancing costs, developmet charges, connection fees etc?

1500 sq ft at 90k is €60 per sq ft... even for teh most basic house that is optimistic, unless you are getting a lot of work done for nothing by friends etc

sas · 11-11-2011 12:37pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

Sorry if I confused anyone, I should have mentioned I'm hoping to build a House around 1500 sq ft for €90,000 to €100,000. I borrowed €30,000 to buy the site, I have the aforementioned amount for the build from the sale of my last house.

In your specific case, BryanF was correct. You do have scope to reduce the size in order to build to a higher spec because there isn't a mortgage involved.

afterburn1 · 11-11-2011 12:42pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

it would be a very basic build for those figures.

have you excluded all other costs apart from build? ie profesional fees, conveyancing costs, developmet charges, connection fees etc?

1500 sq ft at 90k is €60 per sq ft... even for teh most basic house that is optimistic, unless you are getting a lot of work done for nothing by friends etc

I can save a bit on the wiring and carpentry but apart from that no. I've seen plenty of houses built over the border for £70,000 sterling finished, and they were well built as the have to be there.

BryanF · 11-11-2011 1:03pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

I can save a bit on the wiring and carpentry but apart from that no. I've seen plenty of houses built over the border for £70,000 sterling finished, and they were well built as the have to be there.

over the border they have something called building control:D

I implore you to look around this forum and study the standard of home that can be built now. At your present budget I would question whether a reasonable standard of construction is achievable for our increasing colder winters, our modern open plan layouts and our expected occupant comfort.

Consider the passive house standard or at least how reliant you want to be on future fluctuations in heating bills.

What i was eluding to early (but take sas's point) - could you reduce the floor area by say 20% and spend the money on building a higher standard home?

afterburn1 · 11-11-2011 1:23pm

BryanF wrote: »

What i was eluding to early (but take sas's point) - could you reduce the floor area by say 20% and spend the money on building a higher standard home?

I'd rather not but if needs be I'll have to. I am presently renting a house of I'd reckon 2000 sq ft plus,built about 6 years ago. The owner paid 275,000 for it. It's the most half built kip I have ever had the misfortune of living in. The builders wouldn't have got away with the workmanship in the north I can positively guarantee it.
Incidentally would you shrink everything by 20% or just drop a bedroom?

sydthebeat · 11-11-2011 1:33pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

I can save a bit on the wiring and carpentry but apart from that no. I've seen plenty of houses built over the border for £70,000 sterling finished, and they were well built as the have to be there.

dont use that as a yard stick....

see here

basically

Rebuilding costs in Ireland are in the €116-179 psf range depending on region and type of building, in Northern Ireland the average across the six counties is GBP £67 (€77) psf – in other words costs, on a similar basis, are 51-132% higher in the Republic than in Northern Ireland

and

Building costs in the Republic are more expensive than those in Northern Ireland. This is as a result of higher VAT on materials and our higher wage levels

sydthebeat · 11-11-2011 1:39pm

afterburn, the simplest way to knwo what the current 'per sq ft' prices is to contact your local architects / engineers as a 'feeler' and ask them what they currently see as the going standard 'per sq ft' rate

also, assuming your 1500 sq ft is a single storey, it will have a significantly higher 'per sq ft' rate than a dormer or two storey.

afterburn1 · 11-11-2011 1:50pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

afterburn, the simplest way to knwo what the current 'per sq ft' prices is to contact your local architects / engineers as a 'feeler' and ask them what they currently see as the going standard 'per sq ft' rate

also, assuming your 1500 sq ft is a single storey, it will have a significantly higher 'per sq ft' rate than a dormer or two storey.

Sorry I never said it's a dormer. There's nothing to stop me buying the materials a mile down the road surely!

BryanF · 11-11-2011 1:53pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

I'd rather not but if needs be I'll have to. I am presently renting a house of I'd reckon 2000 sq ft plus,built about 6 years ago. The owner paid 275,000 for it. It's the most half built kip I have ever had the misfortune of living in. The builders wouldn't have got away with the workmanship in the north I can positively guarantee it.
Incidentally would you shrink everything by 20% or just drop a bedroom?

Syd makes a good point, (good link, thanks)

to answer your quesiton, peoples have in recent years built huge houses because that was the fashion/ status/ luxury when we all had loads of cash, incidentally many were built to a crap standard just like the one your renting and now they have crazy heating bills, with no easy fix or cheap solutions to remedy this.
if you look at the recommended sizes for bedrooms in the apartment regulations the rooms are far smaller than we expect in our one-off country mansions.

I would prefer to build/design a more modest sized rooms and have little heating cost and high level of comfort over a big drafty mansion any day

picture the house you want in your minds eye (say 150m2 bungalow), then take 1 ft of the perimeter external floor area and there you go you've reduced your floor area by circa 10%.. would that be missed, imo probably not

muffler · 11-11-2011 1:58pm

If its any help I had clients who had a house built for €121,500 about 18 months ago (Donegal btw). Full contract and a "builder's finish" The house was a 4 bed bungalow about 1800 sq. feet and the price also included a detached 500 sq. feet garage and a sewage treatment system.

As it was a builders finish the price didn't obviously include and professional fees, development contributions, solicitors fees, ESB connection etc etc.

sydthebeat · 11-11-2011 1:59pm

afterburn1 wrote: »

Sorry I never said it's a dormer. There's nothing to stop me buying the materials a mile down the road surely!

im not quite sure how the vat works cross border... im of the understanding that you apy the vat rate in the country of purcase if its for personal use and not business. I amy be wrong.

But i think theres also quirks in the irish vat rates which makes it cheaper on som eproducts if they are supply and install.... you need to check this out.

Lemlin · 11-11-2011 2:27pm

BryanF wrote: »

what do you mean? could you not reduce the size of the house? and go for a higher spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes?

Are you assuming my house hasn't a high spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes then?

To be honest, considering I went with geothermal throughout the whole house, airtightness taping, scratch coat on external walls, 50ml insulated slabs on all external walls and ceilings, 100ml pumped cavity and pumped foam insulation in the rafter areas, I'd imagine the build should have a fairly good energy rating.

The finish is also good with oak throughout the entire house.

I reduced costs through not having to buy the site, and help from family.

In regards to the bank, they were concerned I was borrowing too little when I approached them in September '09. Their standard rate at the time was €85 a square foot and they were pushing me towards borrowing at least this. They didn't seem at all concerned re the energy efficiency of the house, only the size as sas said above.

BryanF · 12-11-2011 1:25am

Lemlin wrote: »

Are you assuming my house hasn't a high spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes then?

I'm not assuming anything, apologies if I've offended you

May I ask how much of the work you did yourself?
and what experience you brought to the project?
the size of the house?
and your yearly running costs?

To be honest, considering I went with geothermal throughout the whole house, airtightness taping, scratch coat on external walls, 50ml insulated slabs on all external walls and ceilings, 100ml pumped cavity and pumped foam insulation in the rafter areas, I'd imagine the build should have a fairly good energy rating.

did you not get a BER carried out?

The finish is also good with oak throughout the entire house.

I reduced costs through not having to buy the site, and help from family.

In regards to the bank, they were concerned I was borrowing too little when I approached them in September '09. Their standard rate at the time was €85 a square foot and they were pushing me towards borrowing at least this. They didn't seem at all concerned re the energy efficiency of the house, only the size as sas said above.

of course their not concerned with running costs or your comfort or even how long it stays standing once that's longer than the term of the loan, their only concern is your ability to repay the loan and what the asset/your home is worth upon completion.

manhattan28 · 23-11-2011 7:51pm

Lemlin wrote: »

Are you assuming my house hasn't a high spec in energy conservation, comfort and finishes then?

Does your €65 per square foot include the sq foot of the garage, ie if your house is 3000 sq ft and the garage is 400 sq ft are you dividing the overall cost by 3000 or 3400?

Also does it include wardrobes, alarm, airtight tape etc...anything else not included?

Thanks

muffler · 12-12-2011 7:50pm

Right lads. This thread is being continually dragged off topic and if people are going to persist in doing so then I will remove their posting privileges. I'm getting a little fed up at having to continually post warnings so this will be the last.

The following is posted in the very first post and people seriously need to take heed

Just to add that this thread is for posting prices you have been quoted or prices you have paid for the various aspects of domestic construction. The thread is not to be used for looking for prices

Patmark · 14-12-2011 7:24pm

Hello All,

Northwest of Eire , 4 bedroom architecturally designed split-level house,
215 sqm/ 2300 sq feet , lower level partially as basement ( front part coming out of the ground), basement built as a concrete tank etc
BER A3/B1 , OFCH, HRV, Solars (40 tubes), UFH throughout, airtight (arch. specifications), hardwood timber windows (u 1.20), septic tank, sauna, Brazilian natural slates (210 sqm), 15 mm cavity with 10 mm PIR insulation(u for walls 0.20) , roof 300 mm insulation (kingspan), engineered solid oak 18 mm throughout apart from bathrooms , open space utility, boiler room(tiles),
glassed staircase
cheap/quality ikea kitchen/ utility mdf cabinetes, ikea wardrobes(9m), quality lighting, sanitary wares (medium spec), ESB connection only , appliances (kitchen + utility), all plumbing , pained mdf cabinet/ windowsill (quality) , small jobs outside (decking, gravel in front, front wall stone and clay (cheap) etc
So turn key finish the best price I finally got with reliable builder:
287000 euro = around 1335 per sqm:eek:
You have to add professional fees (18k)
Thanks

So turn key finish

muffler · 14-12-2011 7:43pm

Patmark wrote: »

Hello All,

Northwest of Eire , 4 bedroom architecturally designed split-level house,
215 sqm/ 2300 sq feet , lower level partially as basement ( front part coming out of the ground), basement built as a concrete tank etc
BER A3/B1 , OFCH, HRV, Solars (40 tubes), UFH throughout, airtight (arch. specifications), hardwood timber windows (u 1.20), septic tank, sauna, Brazilian natural slates (210 sqm), 15 mm cavity with 10 mm PIR insulation(u for walls 0.20) , roof 300 mm insulation (kingspan), engineered solid oak 18 mm throughout apart from bathrooms , open space utility, boiler room(tiles),
glassed staircase
cheap/quality ikea kitchen/ utility mdf cabinetes, ikea wardrobes(9m), quality lighting, sanitary wares (medium spec), ESB connection only , appliances (kitchen + utility), all plumbing , pained mdf cabinet/ windowsill (quality) , small jobs outside (decking, gravel in front, front wall stone and clay (cheap) etc
So turn key finish the best price I finally got with reliable builder:
287000 euro = around 1335 per sqm:eek:
You have to add professional fees (18k)
Thanks

So turn key finish

Good man Patmark. Thats the type of posts we are interested in.

just do it · 14-12-2011 9:55pm

Patmark wrote: »

Hello All,

Northwest of Eire , 4 bedroom architecturally designed split-level house,
215 sqm/ 2300 sq feet , lower level partially as basement ( front part coming out of the ground), basement built as a concrete tank etc
BER A3/B1 , OFCH, HRV, Solars (40 tubes), UFH throughout, airtight (arch. specifications), hardwood timber windows (u 1.20), septic tank, sauna, Brazilian natural slates (210 sqm), 15 mm cavity with 10 mm PIR insulation(u for walls 0.20) , roof 300 mm insulation (kingspan), engineered solid oak 18 mm throughout apart from bathrooms , open space utility, boiler room(tiles),
glassed staircase
cheap/quality ikea kitchen/ utility mdf cabinetes, ikea wardrobes(9m), quality lighting, sanitary wares (medium spec), ESB connection only , appliances (kitchen + utility), all plumbing , pained mdf cabinet/ windowsill (quality) , small jobs outside (decking, gravel in front, front wall stone and clay (cheap) etc
So turn key finish the best price I finally got with reliable builder:
287000 euro = around 1335 per sqm:eek:
You have to add professional fees (18k)
Thanks

So turn key finish

Thanks Patmark for that.
It sounds very similar to what we're going building!
I've a few questions for you:

Is it a 150mm cavity between two 100mm block walls with 10mm PIR insulation on the internal surface?
How much insulation and what u-value for the foundation?
What's the target airtightness?

Best of luck with the build. I hope you've got yourself a quality builder!

Patmark · 14-12-2011 10:24pm

Hi,

It is 150 mm cavity filled with 100mm PIR (inside) we were going for kooltherm K8 but went for pir to reduce price, no insulation outside /9with kooltherm 0.19 but pir might give 0.2 to 0.21), and cavity is between 100/215mm and 100 mm blocks
with foundation more complicated as we have ground floor solid 0.15 u(125mm), then ground floor suspended (split-level) 0.16(50mm), and then basement with all walls exposed to the ground 0.16(125mm) (frontal part coming out of the ground)
airtightness 30m3/m2/hr at 50pa
Pat

john_cappa · 12-01-2012 9:09pm

Whats the rough cost (materials and labour) for plumbing a house (new build) around 2200 sq foot, simple square design.

Two kitchens in house both to be plumbed for sinks and diswashers
One utility room to be plumbed for sink and washing machine.
One downstairs toilet with a toilet/sink/shower
Main toilet upstairs with toilet/sink/shower/bath
Ensuite upstairs with toilet/sink/shower

9 decent size double rads
5 smaller rads/towel rails

Oil fired central heating (plumbed to heat all rads and one stove plumbed to heat 4 or 5 of the big rads.

I know the question is vague but I literally want to know would it cost roughly 10k, 20k or 30k etc.

muffler · 13-01-2012 12:11am

john_cappa wrote: »

Whats the rough cost (materials and labour) for plumbing a house (new build) around 2200 sq foot, simple square design.

Two kitchens in house both to be plumbed for sinks and diswashers
One utility room to be plumbed for sink and washing machine.
One downstairs toilet with a toilet/sink/shower
Main toilet upstairs with toilet/sink/shower/bath
Ensuite upstairs with toilet/sink/shower

9 decent size double rads
5 smaller rads/towel rails

Oil fired central heating (plumbed to heat all rads and one stove plumbed to heat 4 or 5 of the big rads.

I know the question is vague but I literally want to know would it cost roughly 10k, 20k or 30k etc.

Enough is enough. There is a clear warning in the thread title and 5 subsequent posts asking people not to use this thread for asking for prices. john_cappa banned for 5 days.

Quoted and Actual Self Build costs in 2011 - Mod warning in Post No. 1

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