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Primary School Patronage - trouble ahead

  • 15-12-2011 11:02AM
    #1
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭


    Link

    So a report has gone to the Miniser for Education 'The Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector'.
    A phased approach is being suggested by the Advisory Group, with a first phase involving work on 47 catchment areas or districts, covering 258 schools, where it seems that there is a need for divesting to allow for diversity of schools.
    One of the recommendations of the Group will be to issue a questionnaire, prepared by the Department in consultation with the partners, to the parents of all children of the 258 schools to get their views.

    I think there'll be trouble ahead. I have no doubt there are some people (future parents as well, not only current parents of primary school kids) who would like no religious aspect to their kids schooling. Likewise there are those (I am one) who actually wants their children to attend a Catholic (or other religious) school - and are active members of their local church, whose bishop is patron of the school.

    But the majority (imho) will not have a very strong opinion either way BUT faced with "their" school being singled out (in the case of urban areas with several schools) to be a secular school will kick up a huge fuss. The same way, I imagine, they would if they were told - OK, you don't come to mass so your little johnny is not allowed make his holy communion.

    I think Ruairai Quinn is misguided in underestimating the inertia and stickiness of lapsed catholics. And particularly, when it comes to their kids schooling.


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    There should be a choice, but the tax-payer shouldn't be paying for that choice.

    Catholic schools should not be run or funded as public schools, secular/multi-cultural ones should be.

    That should be obvious.


  • #3
    vicwatson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Link

    So a report has gone to the Miniser for Education 'The Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector'.



    I think there'll be trouble ahead. I have no doubt there are some people (future parents as well, not only current parents of primary school kids) who would like no religious aspect to their kids schooling. Likewise there are those (I am one) who actually wants their children to attend a Catholic (or other religious) school - and are active members of their local church, whose bishop is patron of the school.

    But the majority (imho) will not have a very strong opinion either way BUT faced with "their" school being singled out (in the case of urban areas with several schools) to be a secular school will kick up a huge fuss. The same way, I imagine, they would if they were told - OK, you don't come to mass so your little johnny is not allowed make his holy communion.

    I think Ruairai Quinn is misguided in underestimating the inertia and stickiness of lapsed catholics. And particularly, when it comes to their kids schooling.


    Aren't "kids" defined as baby goats:rolleyes: just sayin.....


  • #4
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I think Ruairai Quinn is misguided in underestimating the inertia and stickiness of lapsed catholics. And particularly, when it comes to their kids schooling.
    I don't think so. Something tells me that there are far more "lapsed" Catholics who would like to see religion out of the schools, than lapsed Catholics who would fight to keep it in.

    As the document mentions, the 258 schools "singled out" are going to survey the parents to get their views. I imagine they will have the cop-on to not push ahead with it in schools where parents display a strong preference to continue providing religious education in the school during school hours.


  • #5
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    oh yeah, its soooooo important that theyre correctly patronised :rolleyes:


    sorry!


  • #6
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    seamus wrote: »
    I don't think so. Something tells me that there are far more "lapsed" Catholics who would like to see religion out of the schools, than lapsed Catholics who would fight to keep it in.

    I disagree. Lapsed is maybe a poor word. "Socially catholic" might be better. They are and they aren't. The crunch would come when, if religion was removed from their childs schoold, they would have to bring them to afterschool or sunday classes for preparation for communion, confirmations......oh the horror of it :rolleyes:
    seamus wrote: »
    As the document mentions, the 258 schools "singled out" are going to survey the parents to get their views. I imagine they will have the cop-on to not push ahead with it in schools where parents display a strong preference to continue providing religious education in the school during school hours.

    Honestly, I think they will be hard pushed to find many schools where a majority of current parents would welcome a change from a religious run school to a secular school. I don't doubt there is a strong minority of those who would like it and actively campaign for it but in most areas they won't be in the majority.


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  • #7
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Link

    So a report has gone to the Miniser for Education 'The Advisory Group to the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector'.



    I think there'll be trouble ahead. I have no doubt there are some people (future parents as well, not only current parents of primary school kids) who would like no religious aspect to their kids schooling. Likewise there are those (I am one) who actually wants their children to attend a Catholic (or other religious) school - and are active members of their local church, whose bishop is patron of the school.

    But the majority (imho) will not have a very strong opinion either way BUT faced with "their" school being singled out (in the case of urban areas with several schools) to be a secular school will kick up a huge fuss. The same way, I imagine, they would if they were told - OK, you don't come to mass so your little johnny is not allowed make his holy communion.

    I think Ruairai Quinn is misguided in underestimating the inertia and stickiness of lapsed catholics. And particularly, when it comes to their kids schooling.

    It's strongly needed in areas where there is no choice - rural areas, for example, where they may be one school for catholics and nothing for everyone else.

    I think most parents will just want a good strong quality of education for their kids, irrespective of who's giving it.
    Seachmall wrote: »
    There should be a choice, but the tax-payer shouldn't be paying for that choice.

    Catholic schools should not be run or funded as public schools, secular/multi-cultural ones should be.

    That should be obvious.

    Don't mind, as long as they reveice the exact smae level of funding as every othr school, either faith-based, educate together or athiest. And if the school accepts that funding, they also accept that the State is overall authority, not the church.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #8
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Seachmall wrote: »
    There should be a choice, but the tax-payer shouldn't be paying for that choice.

    Catholic schools should not be run or funded as public schools, secular/multi-cultural ones should be.

    That should be obvious.

    Yes, there has to be a choice.

    Catholic schools are not run or funded as public schools. They are run and funded as catholic schools. A catholic community operates them and taxpayer's money is used to afirm that choice that tax paying parents have made.

    I believe secular schools are funded on EXACTLY the same basis. Parents make a choice and government afirms that choice.

    Also - lets knock the multicultural thing on the head. Multicultural does not equal secular. If you have any dealing with schools (of all types.....with perhaps less so in gaelscoileanna and fee-paying schools) you will see they are far, far more multi-cultural than most workplaces for example. Catholic schools are absolutely no exception.


  • #9
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Don't mind, as long as they reveice the exact smae level of funding as every othr school, either faith-based, educate together or athiest. And if the school accepts that funding, they also accept that the State is overall authority, not the church.

    They should be private schools and they should be funded privately.

    I'm sure all schools qualify for certain tax-cuts and limited funding but that is all. There should be state-owned schools that are funded by the state and nonstate-owned schools that are not funded by the state.

    Catholic, or any other faith based, schools should not be state-owned.



    BTW, a secular/multi-cultural/multi-denominational school isn't an atheist school.


  • #10
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    It's strongly needed in areas where there is no choice - rural areas, for example, where they may be one school for catholics and nothing for everyone else.

    But where there is only one school - surely that's where the transfer of schools to secular patronage is going to be most opposed?

    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Don't mind, as long as they reveice the exact smae level of funding as every othr school, either faith-based, educate together or athiest.

    I think all schools (non-fee paying) do/would receive the same level of basic funding yes.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    And if the school accepts that funding, they also accept that the State is overall authority, not the church.

    So they can be catholic schools as long as they admit they're not really catholic schools?


  • #11
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I think Ruairai Quinn is misguided in underestimating the inertia and stickiness of lapsed catholics. And particularly, when it comes to their kids schooling.
    I reckon the opposite, once the current crop of 60+ year olds pass on, the catholic church in ireland will shrivel up and die except for a few areas, mainly rural. A lot of people are only mumbling the lines to keep their old ma happy.


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  • #12
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Catholic schools are not run or funded as public schools. They are run and funded as catholic schools. A catholic community operates them and taxpayer's money is used to afirm that choice that tax paying parents have made.

    I believe secular schools are funded on EXACTLY the same basis. Parents make a choice and government afirms that choice.

    .

    The problem is though, that in most areas there is no choice but to send your kids to a Catholic school. The fuckers have a monopoly in most of the country, so the government isn't affirming the choice of parents - they are affirming the lack of it.

    Another major issue with this system is that kids who are Catholics get precedence over non-Catholics when it comes to enrolment in local schools, meaning that parents who otherwise wouldn't have their kids christened, do so just to make it easier to get them a place in the local school.

    There should be no such thing as religious schools in Ireland. Religion has done us fuck all good & has no place in the education of our children... if parents choose to teach their children religion, let them do so, outside of school and at their own expense.


  • #13
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Seachmall wrote: »
    There should be state-owned schools that are funded by the state and nonstate-owned schools that are not funded by the state.

    Well, I think that's what this forum is trying to address. Patronage at least, if not actual ownership. Otherwise the state could buy land and start building schools. I'm sure there's plenty of money avail..............oh wait.
    Seachmall wrote: »
    Catholic, or any other faith based, schools should not be state-owned.

    They are not. Never have been. Catholic schools are owned and operated by the catholic church (with mostly taxpayer funding)


    Seachmall wrote: »
    BTW, a secular/multi-cultural/multi-denominational school isn't an atheist school.

    I agree 100%. They are respectively, secular schools, multi-cultural schools and multi-denominational schools. Mostly excellent I'm sure, if that's your choice for your child. Catholic schools are typically multi-cultural by virtue of their catchment.


  • #14
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I disagree. Lapsed is maybe a poor word. "Socially catholic" might be better. They are and they aren't. The crunch would come when, if religion was removed from their childs schoold, they would have to bring them to afterschool or sunday classes for preparation for communion, confirmations......oh the horror of it :rolleyes:

    what is wrong with after school? When I was a kid I enjoyed playing sports and music, but I had to do it after school. If the child is interested in religion & communion then let them attend after school classes. I'm sure the church would facilitate it.


  • #15
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    But where there is only one school - surely that's where the transfer of schools to secular patronage is going to be most opposed?

    So they can be catholic schools as long as they admit they're not really catholic schools?

    1 - That is what I would fear and that is where I think it is needed most. There used to a practice of giving preference to children with baptismal certs (or places outright) which is a practice I believe that should be banned (if it is still in practice - not sure) if the school is to accept funding.

    2 - Not at all - they can teach as they see fit, but the State is overall in charge. One example is as stated above. Another condition is that they provide actual classes - not just free time and supervison - for children who opt out of the religion classes. I also beleive that the communion and confirmation should be done on chruch time, as it takes up too much school time. (I also think it would be handled better that way, in any case, because the kids hardly know what communion is these days)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #16
    number10a
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    I can imagine a lot of the "socialy Catholic" parents breathing a massive sigh of relief if their particular school was divested. Imagine the money, hassle, and lip-service that they would save by seeing a really easy way out of communions and confirmations.


  • #17
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    One page in & no mention of paedo priests... has AH finally grown up?


  • #18
    amen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    A catholic community operates them and taxpayer's money is used to afirm that choice that tax paying parents have made

    Pardon ? Where did the money from to purchase the site, build the school? The Irish State.

    Who pays the teachers (and other staff wages) ? The Irish State.

    Who pays for the funds for heating, electricity etc ? The Irish State.

    If these were truly Catholic schools then the church would be funding the schools, staff wages etc. This does not occur. Of course if it were to occur you would be happy to help fund your local school through your weekly donation to the school.

    I also assume you would be happy for the church to start paying tax as currently nearly all religious organisations are tax exempt.


  • #19
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Another condition is that they provide actual classes - not just free time and supervison - for children who opt out of the religion classes.

    Religion should be an optional subject and should be objective and fair to all beliefs and non-beliefs without appearing biased to one, faith-based classes should not be present at all.


  • #20
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yes, there has to be a choice.

    Catholic schools are not run or funded as public schools. They are run and funded as catholic schools. ........


    ...by the state, as if they were public schools, hence the difficulty.


  • #21
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Religion should be an optional subject and should be objective and fair to all beliefs and non-beliefs without appearing biased to one, faith-based classes should not be present at all.

    Ideally, yes, but I was talking from the point of a faith-based school where there is no optional school in the locality and children of different faiths will be attending.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #22
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    The big bad secular state corrupting our children with their lack of brainwashing about magic. Bastards.


  • #23
    Aisling(",)
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Aisling(",)


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Religion should be an optional subject and should be objective and fair to all beliefs and non-beliefs without appearing biased to one, faith-based classes should not be present at all.

    Secondary school religion is.For the junior cert you have to study the 5 (i think) major world religions and their customs and beliefs or the exam.


  • #24
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    jester77 wrote: »
    what is wrong with after school? When I was a kid I enjoyed playing sports and music, but I had to do it after school. If the child is interested in religion & communion then let them attend after school classes. I'm sure the church would facilitate it.

    I agree with you. Though not to the extent that religion should not be part of school life.

    What I am saying is that those who aren't really pushed about it will kick up a fuss at the "imposition" of having to be actively involved in preparing their child for a sacrament that they have chosen.


  • #25
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    What I am saying is that those who aren't really pushed about it will kick up a fuss at the "imposition" of having to be actively involved in preparing their child for a sacrament that they have chosen.

    And those people can keep Joe's phone-lines busy as the rest of us move into the 21st Century.


  • #26
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I agree with you. Though not to the extent that religion should not be part of school life.

    What I am saying is that those who aren't really pushed about it will kick up a fuss at the "imposition" of having to be actively involved in preparing their child for a sacrament that they have chosen.

    That's true, but doubtless if somebody suggests that they either go with the flow or fork out cash, they'll go with the flow. If not paddle.


  • #27
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Honestly, I think they will be hard pushed to find many schools where a majority of current parents would welcome a change from a religious run school to a secular school. I don't doubt there is a strong minority of those who would like it and actively campaign for it but in most areas they won't be in the majority.
    I don't know. One's perceptions can be coloured by the company they keep. The vast majority of lapsed Catholics that I know have expressed a preference to not have church-run schools. Many of them are chomping at the bit to get secular schools for their children.

    Even my mother-in-law, who's adherently holy, but not preachy, has expressed a preference that state schools aren't religious, but rather that religious parents can send their kids to religious schools if they want.

    Someone else who moves in different circles may have a different experience of what people want. So it's hard to say.

    There's also something of a crest being ridden whereby people are angry at the Catholic church and the abuses over the past 100 years in this country. A lot of the "get the church out" rage is a reaction to this, in wanting to keep children safe.

    However, as you correctly point out, once parents realise that this means they'll have to make an effort if they want their children confirmed, etc, they might change their mind.

    Socio-economic factors will also play a part IMO. Lower income areas would inherently have more people who claim religiousity, and would be more resistant to removing religion from the school system. Religion class, and the whole process of communion and confirmation is seen by many as something cultural, rather than religious. So to remove these from the school experience would be seen by some people to be damaging to Irish culture. Again, this would be more the attitude in lower income areas, though its prevalent in all areas.

    But I think number10a also makes a good point in that it could go the other way - parents may be relieved that they no longer have to go through the money pits and hassle of the sacraments if the schools aren't doing them. They can be quietly shelved without the parents having to admit that they're not really Catholic.
    jester77 wrote: »
    what is wrong with after school? When I was a kid I enjoyed playing sports and music, but I had to do it after school. If the child is interested in religion & communion then let them attend after school classes. I'm sure the church would facilitate it.
    I think you missed the sarcasm in his post. His point was that a good deal of people would suddenly develop an opinion about removing religion from the schools, if they realised that they would have to make an effort to brainwash indoctrinate their children. And I agree.


  • #28
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Seachmall wrote: »
    And those people can keep Joe's phone-lines busy as the rest of us move into the 21st Century.

    Joeeeeeeee!!!!!
    (yeah mary)
    He doesn't understand that the underlyin reality of the communion is christ, despite appearances to the contrary joeeeee!!!!
    (thats terrible, terrible, terrible.....)
    and he doesn't feel guilty joeeeeee!!!!!!about the sex joeeee!!!!
    (tsk, sigh, ahh thats awful mary, awful)


  • #29
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    amen wrote: »
    Pardon ? Where did the money from to purchase the site, build the school? The Irish State.

    Who pays the teachers (and other staff wages) ? The Irish State.

    Who pays for the funds for heating, electricity etc ? The Irish State.

    If these were truly Catholic schools then the church would be funding the schools, staff wages etc. This does not occur. Of course if it were to occur you would be happy to help fund your local school through your weekly donation to the school.

    I also assume you would be happy for the church to start paying tax as currently nearly all religious organisations are tax exempt.

    I (part of my Church) am funding these schools. Buildings, wages, heating, maula (do they still have maula?) Week in, week out. I am also funding Educate Together schools and Jewish schools and CoI schools. I do all this through the miracle of tax. You, no doubt are doing the same.

    What do you mean when you talk about churches paying tax? Tax on what? Please expand.


  • #30
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    I Heart Internet wrote: »

    What do you mean when you talk about churches paying tax? Tax on what? Please expand.


    Tax on income & revenue. The Catholic Church rakes in millions every year in this country & doesn't pay a red cent on it to the taxman due to Ireland's rather lax laws around the status of so called charities.


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  • #31
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    As already posted in the A&A forum...
    robindch wrote: »
    "We The Citizens" released their final report today. Amongst much else, it discusses the basis for democracy in this country and the erosion of trust in institutions which were formerly trusted.

    Amongst the more interesting conclusions are that less than 30% of the population have confidence in religious organizations, only around 15% support the mandatory indoctrination of children in primary schools, almost half want most schools to be transferred out of religious control and most interestingly of all, more than 80% want complete separation between church and state.

    The final report is available here:

    http://www.wethecitizens.ie/pdfs/We-the-Citizens-2011-FINAL.pdf


  • #32
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Tax on income & revenue. The Catholic Church rakes in millions every year in this country & doesn't pay a red cent on it to the taxman due to Ireland's rather lax laws around the status of so called charities.

    Ok - so on collections and land-sales and things like that?

    Well, by all means, I'd have no trouble at all with reviewing how charities and not-for-profits, etc are taxed.

    Just as long as we don't dream up a "let's tax the charaties we don't like" tax.
    Guide dogs....cute.....no tax. Churches....booo...hissss.....tax them. Catholic Guide Dogs Guild of Co. Leitrim......oooohhh I'm torn.


  • #33
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You, no doubt are doing the same.

    And that's the problem.

    Mandatory funding of an organisation I, and many others, don't want to fund.

    I've no problem paying for the education of children but if the Church wants to maintain Catholic schools they can afford it better than we can.
    Churches....booo...hissss.....tax them
    Churches aren't charities. They're churches.


  • #34
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    only around 15% support the mandatory indoctrination of children in primary schools

    Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

    Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.


  • #35
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

    Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.
    Ask people a different question and you'd get a different response?

    Aren't you quite the genius.


  • #36
    aujopimur
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭aujopimur


    STOP, STOP this is making baby jesus cry.


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  • #37
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

    Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.

    "Mandatory Indoctrination" wasn't specifically worded to sound bad, that's what it is. I don't think you can word it in anyway that sounds positive, because it's not positive.


  • #38
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Seachmall wrote: »

    Churches aren't charities. They're churches.

    The Charities Section of the Revenue Commisioners begs to differ.


  • #39
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Charities Section of the Revenue Commisioners begs to differ.

    No doubt, hence the original point.


    I'm sensing circular logic here.


  • #40
    Dan133269
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Likewise there are those (I am one) who actually wants their children to attend a Catholic (or other religious) school - and are active members of their local church, whose bishop is patron of the school.

    Other religious school? Tell us how you would feel OP, if the only school in your area was a Protestant or Muslim school for the sake of argument - you had a choice between sending your child to that school or driving them 1 1/2 hours each way everyday to a different school in a different city which you found suitable.

    And if you choose to send your child to the Protestant or Muslim school, you would have to get them baptised or initiated as such, going directly against your wishes for them as a parent, just so that Protestant or Muslim school would accept them. Would you be happy with that?


  • #41
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I think there'll be trouble ahead.
    There will be trouble ahead, but only if the religious establishment chooses to cause it, or at least, certain parts of it. I believe most people want a smooth, uncomplicated transfer of power.

    At the moment, the Vatican and its local representatives are able to control whether or not a child living in Ireland receives an education. Outside of this right to veto, the input of the church in this country into most Irish schools is minimal.

    Now, if the Vatican wishes to pay to run schools in this country -- and I'm hard pressed to think of an organization less suited to the care of children -- then they do have a right to set up and pay for these schools themselves. And while I'd have expected parents to have more respect for their children's minds, the same goes for catholic parents who wish to outsource the religious indoctrination of their children. If the religious pay, then the religious can control.

    What the church has no right to do is (a) to take state money and use it to indoctrinate children; (b) to deny education to the kids of parents who are not members of their religious club and (c) to apply subtle and non-subtle social pressure to force parents and children to conform to its requirements.


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  • #42
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Seachmall wrote: »

    "Mandatory Indoctrination" wasn't specifically worded to sound bad, that's what it is. I don't think you can word it in anyway that sounds positive, because it's not positive.

    Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

    There - a perfectly biased question. Like the mandatory indoctrination one. :-) Simples


  • #43
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

    There - a perfectly biased question. Like the mandatory indoctrination one. :-) Simples

    Granted, you could dance around what it is to make it sound positive.

    However "Mandatory Indoctrination" is the shortest and most accurate way to describe the practice.


    Also, that wasn't the wording the paper.


  • #44
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.


  • #45
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

    I don't think it's up to the school to teach your kids moral behavior, that's more of a parent's job.


  • #46
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,778 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

    No. Howerer, if you phrase it:
    "Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence "
    then yes.
    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.
    I would argue that you could do this just as well as the church.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #47
    Dan133269
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

    What values are they?
    Where do they come from in the Christian faith? I mean do they come from the holy text, words of members of the Church, actions of members of the church? Official church teaching as communicated by its leader or what?


  • #48
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,452 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.
    Like the idea that your child will burn in hell if he/she isn't good and doesn't believe the stories that the priest tells? :confused:


  • #49
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

    Values like homosexuality is wrong?

    Can you tell us what values are taught in a Catholic school that aren't/can't be taught in a secular school?


  • #50
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Dan133269 wrote: »
    Other religious school? Tell us how you would feel OP, if the only school in your area was a Protestant or Muslim school for the sake of argument - you had a choice between sending your child to that school or driving them 1 1/2 hours each way everyday to a different school in a different city which you found suitable.

    I'd be dissapointed that there wasn't a school with a catholic ethos in my locality. Then I'd get together with my catholic buddies and look at how we could establish a school to meet our requirements.

    If the numbers just weren't right - or, if I didn't have the energy and time to try and establish a school that fit the needs of my community then I'd probably send my child to the Protestant school as it would be a close fit and would teach my child about his/her particular brand of christianity at home or at church.

    Next prefernece would be the Muslim school.

    I already drive 1 hr + every day for work. Would be quite happy with a good local school - even if it wasn't my first preference.

    Dan133269 wrote: »
    And if you choose to send your child to the Protestant or Muslim school, you would have to get them baptised or initiated as such, going directly against your wishes for them as a parent, just so that Protestant or Muslim school would accept them. Would you be happy with that?

    No. I don't think those churches or schools would be either.


  • #51
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Can you tell us what values are taught in a Catholic school that aren't/can't be taught in a secular school?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

    The above creed is a good summary.

    I make no bones about it - I'd prefer a catholic education for my child.


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