Jobseekers do not have adequate income

Sunnyisland · 06-02-2012 08:37AM #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0206/jobseekers.html

A report funded by the Department of Social Protection suggests that the majority of families dependent on Jobseekers Benefit do not have an adequate income for a basic standard of living.
One of the authors of the report said because the minimum wage and social welfare payments are not linked to what is needed for a basic standard of living, poverty and social exclusion will continue in Ireland.
The report based its findings on the United Nations definition of a minimum standard of living, which is described as one which meets a person's physical, psychological, spiritual and social needs.
Different types of households were assessed, including a single person living alone, a two-parent household with two children and a pensioner couple.
In the case of a family where both parents are unemployed and dependent on jobseekers benefit, most families have an inadequate income for a basic standard of living.
The findings suggest that in families where two parents with two children have one parent working full-time earning the minimum wage, that they are not meeting the basic standard of living.
Where one parent is working full-time and one part-time earning the minimum wage, their income is also inadequate for what is defined as a basic standard of living.

The report was carried out by the Policy Institute at Trinity College Dublin and was funded by the Department of Social Protection.
One of the authors, Dr Michéal Collins, says its findings are a useful benchmark to assess the adequacy of welfare payments and the minimum wage and could be relevant when considering how households can manage their debts.

I was surprised to read this, As one of our biggest payments is in Social welfare and reading a lot of posts here I was under the impression that JsB was to high,It now seems that this is not the case and its making an even more bigger divide in the haves and have nots which certainly will come back to haunt us in a few years.

Sykk · 06-02-2012 08:42AM

Their reports based on what.. 10 people?

Most people I know on the dole (family, friends) can pay their rent, buy their food and a lot of them are in the pub two nights a week or more.

Their report can feck off.

gosuckonalemon · 06-02-2012 08:43AM

Single people living with their parents can save money on it.

Married families with mortgages will go without essential items.

Crazy Horse 6 · 06-02-2012 08:43AM

One of the biggest lies put out there mostly by IBEC and the likes is that people on social welfare live like kings taking holidays to disneyland and driving 2012 cars around the place whilst working people have it much harder.

The actual fact is working people have it hard yes but life an social wefare for 99% of people is a daily grind and heartbreaking. Yes there are those who take advantage of the system but why tarnish everyone with the same brush?

Sindri · 06-02-2012 09:05AM

Jobseekers do not have adequate income-

They would if they had a job.

Phill Ewinn · 06-02-2012 09:07AM

Can appreciate that report. People see fvck all. It's a one sided argument IMO.

Do some volunteer work, go and see the people who were working two/three years ago and how they now cannot manage.

Read the Sunday Times article on Suicide and the recession.

goose2005 · 06-02-2012 10:52AM

The problem is that we don't tie rent, welfare or pensions into the cost of living. That way, rents can be kept arbitrarily high, and any increase in welfare and pensions can be portrayed as the government of the day "giving" an extra tenner to the poor ould fellas.

MagicSean · 06-02-2012 10:59AM

When I saw this on the news this morning I had to run to the shop to get a pack of microwave popcorn.

/puts popcorn in microwave

On a more serious note, how difficult would it be for the government to work out the actual cost of living for people and pay one single means tested payment per household to make up any shortfall. Tv, broadband and phones are not essentials btw.

Leo Dowling · 06-02-2012 11:29AM

realies wrote: »

I was surprised to read this, As one of our biggest payments is in Social welfare and reading a lot of posts here I was under the impression that JsB was to high,It now seems that this is not the case and its making an even more bigger divide in the haves and have nots which certainly will come back to haunt us in a few years.

Reading a lot of posts here will teach you nothing about the actual welfare system. The whole forum is full of knee-jerk reactions to reports in tabloid newspapers about polish people and communion dresses rather than a discussion of the actual facts.

davet82 · 06-02-2012 11:32AM

Where one parent is working full-time and one part-time earning the minimum wage, their income is also inadequate for what is defined as a basic standard of living.

whats sort of shambles is this that 2 working parents cant acheive a basic standard of living. get the pj's out i say, whats the fcuking point! :mad:

phasers · 06-02-2012 11:34AM

If you're employed: The dole is way too much, fecking spongers bla bla bla

If you're unemployed: Any more cuts and I can't survive, need all the money I get bla bla bla

Basically each side has a view that they won't change until their employment status changes. These threads always go the same way.

Nijmegen · 06-02-2012 12:03PM

I think the nuanced argument of the report is that some people don't have enough to live on, because the entire system is not properly means tested.

If it were people would truly get what they need, not what is set down on an arbitrary line by the department for social protection, which in the past has admitted it is too incompetent to means test.

lividduck · 06-02-2012 12:08PM

Sindri wrote: »

Jobseekers do not have adequate income-

They would if they had a job.

Well the report also says that a lot of families with only one parent working cant make ends meet either.
A lot has to do with your definition of adeqacy

Cee-Jay-Cee · 06-02-2012 12:10PM

Untill the government get some sort of system in operation that has all the info from all the various agencies involved in welfare in one place then it will be impossible to give a clear indication on who is living above/below the basic standard of living.

smash · 06-02-2012 12:13PM

To be fair, wages etc are decreasing constantly while the costs of goods are increasing constantly.

Cedrus · 06-02-2012 12:16PM

MagicSean wrote: »

broadband and phones are not essentials btw.

This is the comment of someone who has not had to look for a job in a long time. Internet access and a phone ARE essential tools for Jobseekers. More jobs are advertised online than anywhere else and prospective employers expect to be able to call you when they want. Intenet cafes are an expensive option when they are even available.

Drumpot · 06-02-2012 12:21PM

Sykk wrote: »

Their reports based on what.. 10 people?

Most people I know on the dole (family, friends) can pay their rent, buy their food and a lot of them are in the pub two nights a week or more.

Their report can feck off.

Thats funny . . Its a documented report assessing whether or not people on welfare have adequate income . .

I imagine your report ill conveived , ill educated, presumptuous populist views are based on a mixture of some bits you heard on a Joe Duffy Show , bits of bitter prejudice and other bits heard in the same pub that you must be frequenting (unless of course you just heard that these people are going to the pub twice a week, as opposed to witnessing it yourself ?!).

Never ceases to amaze me the ignorance that can be shown by people on boards (I include the clowns that thanked you!).

I would personally be all for the likes of food stamps or a kind of welfare credit card (to replace most of the cash) so that the money is spent in the right places. I know some familes on welfare and the husband is using the money to fund their own lifestyles. Welfare should be about family and vulnerable people being protected.

My family gets some social welfare (I work) because I fall below a certain threshold. I dont think I am entitled to it as a devine right but I know that I would be screwed without it . . Wont go into why so judgemental, ill informed people (those share your views) can scrutinise the decisions I have made in my life. I rely on the kindness of family , the state , coupled with my job, to help my family survive.

Fr D Maugire · 06-02-2012 12:22PM

Personally I believe what a single person gets on the dole is more than sufficent to get by on as long as you live outside Dublin or maybe a few of the other cities, dont really know Cork/Galway rental prices. It might mean a few lifestyle adjustments but its totally feasible. I think thats why its possible for someone like Magda to live comfortably enough on the dole in Donegal.

For families with children and a mortgage I would imagine it is a struggle even with child benefits etc. I know I have friends in this situation and they really struggle to make ends meet and are not getting by easily.

Maybe the method of means testing needs to be looked at as people have suggested because the cost of living in Ireland is way too high for what some people are receiving in social welfare. Also of course, there are people who are abusing the system.

MagicSean · 06-02-2012 12:25PM

Cedrus wrote: »

This is the comment of someone who has not had to look for a job in a long time. Internet access and a phone ARE essential tools for Jobseekers. More jobs are advertised online than anywhere else and prospective employers expect to be able to call you when they want. Intenet cafes are an expensive option when they are even available.

Internet cafes are not as expensive as broadband subscription. And there is also the option of just using a friends computer when needed.

smash · 06-02-2012 12:30PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Internet cafes are not as expensive as broadband subscription. And there is also the option of just using a friends computer when needed.

You can get broadband for as little as around €10 a month. An internet cafe is around €1.50 an hour!

06-02-2012 12:32PM

I'm on the Dole and while it's enough to pay for my rent, bills and food (if you shop smart), it most certainly wouldn't cover trips abroad.

MagicSean · 06-02-2012 12:33PM

smash wrote: »

You can get broadband for as little as around €10 a month. An internet cafe is around €1.50 an hour!

Ho wlong does it take you to fill out a few profiles on jobs sites and send off a few cv's?

AnonoBoy · 06-02-2012 12:34PM

phasers wrote: »

If you're employed: The dole is way too much, fecking spongers bla bla bla

If you're unemployed: Any more cuts and I can't survive, need all the money I get bla bla bla

Basically each side has a view that they won't change until their employment status changes. These threads always go the same way.

What happens when you are unemployed and then you get a job unexpectedly?

Is there a point when your opinion swings or do you just exist for a few days in that magical place where you can see both sides of the argument before coming crashing down firmly into "Them spongers get too much of my taxes" camp?

Someone needs to fund a study into this.

smash · 06-02-2012 12:34PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Ho wlong does it take you to fill out a few profiles on jobs sites and send off a few cv's?

Actually, according to some of the price plans on http://www.getbroadband.ie/ the cheapest broadband is 19.99

But, you can use your mobile to connect your laptop to the net through 3g if you have a data plan. But the bottom line is that you'll want to be checking these sites a few times a day to be honest.

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2012 12:36PM

If people here cant live on social welfare then people in the UK must be in complete poverty.

06-02-2012 12:36PM

smash wrote: »

Actually, according to some of the price plans on http://www.getbroadband.ie/ the cheapest broadband is 19.99

But, you can use your mobile to connect your laptop to the net through 3g if you have a data plan.

Isn't that in breach of some providers' T&C? Supposedly it is for 3.

Cedrus · 06-02-2012 12:39PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Internet cafes are not as expensive as broadband subscription. And there is also the option of just using a friends computer when needed.

This is the comment of someone who has not used an internet cafe in a long time.
Any serious jobseeker needs to search for work daily, the downturn started in 2008 so the long term unemployed would need to have VERY GOOD friends.

gcgirl · 06-02-2012 12:40PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If people here cant live on social welfare then people in the UK must be in complete poverty.

Different country different set of rules
I would also live to go to Iceland and fill my freezer for £15

Milky Moo · 06-02-2012 12:40PM

I hate all this squabbling about SW, the vast majority of people on social welfare don't want to be there, it isn't a great way to live, saying getting a job is ridiculous with 14% unemployment! we need to focus our ire where it is deserved!

Cedrus · 06-02-2012 12:47PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Ho wlong does it take you to fill out a few profiles on jobs sites and send off a few cv's?

Hardcore job hunting, NOT!

smash · 06-02-2012 01:00PM

I admit that I've bitched in a few threads about welfare fraud, and everyone has a right to do that. But the bottom line is that if we had a strong economy and there was a still 15% unemployment rate then all these latest threads would be worthwhile, but we don't.

Jobs available = low.
Jobs available to match people's skills = very low.
Cost of living = high.

That's all that matters really.

gcgirl · 06-02-2012 01:02PM

smash wrote: »

I admit that I've bitched in a few threads about welfare fraud, and everyone has a right to do that. But the bottom line is that if we had a strong economy and there was a still 15% unemployment rate then all these latest threads would be worthwhile, but we don't.

Jobs available = low.
Jobs available to match people's skills = very low.
Cost of living = high.

That's all that matters really.

Plus a million

Leo Dowling · 06-02-2012 01:11PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Internet cafes are not as expensive as broadband subscription. And there is also the option of just using a friends computer when needed.

One visit to an internet cafe is not as expensive as a broadband subscription. Four visits in a month would probably be, if not more expensive. Broadband is dirt cheap and operates in a very competitive market. To say someone is living in the lap of luxury because they pay €20 a month to an internet provider is just being silly.

Doc Ruby · 06-02-2012 01:15PM

smash wrote: »

To be fair, wages etc are decreasing constantly while the costs of goods are increasing constantly.

I think this is a very important point that a lot of commentary overlooks. It's called stagflation, which is where you have stagnant wages and inflating costs of goods and services.

The reader's digest version is it leads to third world country situations, where most people can afford the basics like food and shelter, but things like cars, home ownership, and similar items are increasingly out of reach for all but the few on top.

We're not that badly off yet, but its a dodgy road to start travelling down.

token101 · 06-02-2012 01:17PM

Along with physical, social and psychological needs the report mentions welfare is unfulfilling spiritually. How exactly is welfare going to fulfil your spiritual needs?

KindOfIrish · 06-02-2012 01:23PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If people here cant live on social welfare then people in the UK must be in complete poverty.

for a single person the difference is huge, but for a family with 2 children total amount of social welfare here and in UK is about the same.

Pacifist Pigeon · 06-02-2012 01:32PM

Yeah, that's simple logic really. I'd expect people who don't have a job to not have much money.

Doesn't take a whizkid in the Department of Social Protection to come up with that. Hmmm, what a waste of taxpayers money on obvious facts. Such frivolous spending needs to stop.

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2012 01:33PM

gcgirl wrote: »

Different country different set of rules
I would also live to go to Iceland and fill my freezer for £15

The current top rate of Jobseekers in the UK is €78.85 (todays visa rates) . If a couple are both unemployed the max is €123.80 between them. You also get cut the more savings you have.

Irelnad is not over 100% more expensive to live in than the UK.

The local garage to me sells a sliced pan for €1 , 12 eggs for €1 and 2 litres of milk for €1.29. I'm sure cheaper cna be had in supermarkets.

I'm on the Dole btw.

topcatcbr · 06-02-2012 01:35PM

realies wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0206/jobseekers.html[/

The report based its findings on the United Nations definition of a minimum standard of living, which is described as one which meets a person's physical, psychological, spiritual and social needs.
Different types of households were assessed, including a single person living alone, a two-parent household with two children and a pensioner couple.
In the case of a family where both parents are unemployed and dependent on jobseekers benefit, most families have an inadequate income for a basic standard of living.
The findings suggest that in families where two parents with two children have one parent working full-time earning the minimum wage, that they are not meeting the basic standard of living.

Is this not how things should be.

If the JSB was adequate for a normal standard of living then where is the incentive to take a job that is not fantastic. ( most jobs)

steve9859 · 06-02-2012 01:43PM

topcatcbr wrote: »

Is this not how things should be.

Absolutely. If the dole met everyone's "physical, psychological, spiritual and social needs" there would be no incentive for anyone to ever get a job!

(and I spent a year on the dole btw, in the not too distant past, before bailing out and getting a job in England)

token101 · 06-02-2012 01:56PM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I think this is a very important point that a lot of commentary overlooks. It's called stagflation, which is where you have stagnant wages and inflating costs of goods and services.

The reader's digest version is it leads to third world country situations, where most people can afford the basics like food and shelter, but things like cars, home ownership, and similar items are increasingly out of reach for all but the few on top.

We're not that badly off yet, but its a dodgy road to start travelling down.

Exactly.

A bit of perspective now in fairness. This is not a third world country and any attempt at any comparison is total hyperbole. People might struggle to make ends meet but no one is starving to death in the streets. This is still a generous welfare state whatever way you look at, you only need look at the UK to see that. The cost of living isn't twice as much in Ireland but people get twice people in the UK get. Anybody on welfare in any country in the world struggles. It's welfare, it's meant to be a temporary stop gap not a lifestyle.

ilovesleep · 06-02-2012 01:58PM

Cedrus wrote: »

This is the comment of someone who has not had to look for a job in a long time. Internet access and a phone ARE essential tools for Jobseekers. More jobs are advertised online than anywhere else and prospective employers expect to be able to call you when they want. Intenet cafes are an expensive option when they are even available.

I don't know about else where but in galway some internet places have closed. I can think of one remaining open down on foster street and that is very expensive.

Library's don't accept USBs.

ilovesleep · 06-02-2012 02:00PM

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

Single people living with their parents can save money on it.

Married families with mortgages will go without essential items.

Not if you have a parent like mine demanding rent.

smash · 06-02-2012 02:04PM

While the dole might seem like a lot to some people, half of it could easily be gone every week on fuel for your car to get to interviews, bring kids to school and get shopping. And it doesn't leave a lot for the shopping then.

And the cost of public transport in Ireland is over infalted to the point where there's no point replacing driving with a bus/luas/dart whatever.

token101 · 06-02-2012 02:10PM

smash wrote: »

While the dole might seem like a lot to some people, half of it could easily be gone every week on fuel for your car to get to interviews, bring kids to school and get shopping. And it doesn't leave a lot for the shopping then.

And the cost of public transport in Ireland is over infalted to the point where there's no point replacing driving with a bus/luas/dart whatever.

You could go to the community welfare officer and say you have an interview and no petrol to put in the car. What's the alternative? Raising SW again?

gcgirl · 06-02-2012 02:16PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

Different country different set of rules
I would also live to go to Iceland and fill my freezer for £15

The current top rate of Jobseekers in the UK is €78.85 (todays visa rates) . If a couple are both unemployed the max is €123.80 between them. You also get cut the more savings you have.

Irelnad is not over 100% more expensive to live in than the UK.

The local garage to me sells a sliced pan for €1 , 12 eggs for €1 and 2 litres of milk for €1.29. I'm sure cheaper cna be had in supermarkets.

I'm on the Dole btw.

Just take a look at goods same companies Tesco and the like, uk and Ireland some how they are the same but the prices are higher in Ireland while it's cheaper in England that I don't get

Plus where you'd get the prices for bread milk and eggs ? 12 eggs cost around 2 euro in aldi and 2 lt milk is 1.60 but your talking 25% dearer in the local shop

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2012 02:18PM

gcgirl wrote: »

Just take a look at goods same companies Tesco and the like, uk and Ireland some how they are the same but the prices are higher in Ireland while it's cheaper in England that I don't get

Prices are higher here because we have more money. Simple economics.

You quoted my post where I showed our dole is well over double what they get in the UK, that just proves my point.

gcgirl wrote: »

Plus where you'd get the prices for bread milk and eggs ? 12 eggs cost around 2 euro in aldi and 2 lt milk is 1.60 but your talking 25% dearer in the local shop

As I said, the garage near me. Texaco at the spawell.

2litre milk in Dunnes is €1.19.

Chucky the tree · 06-02-2012 02:23PM

smash wrote: »

While the dole might seem like a lot to some people, half of it could easily be gone every week on fuel for your car to get to interviews, bring kids to school and get shopping. And it doesn't leave a lot for the shopping then.

And the cost of public transport in Ireland is over infalted to the point where there's no point replacing driving with a bus/luas/dart whatever.

In dublin public transport would work out far cheaper.

gcgirl · 06-02-2012 02:25PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

Just take a look at goods same companies Tesco and the like, uk and Ireland some how they are the same but the prices are higher in Ireland while it's cheaper in England that I don't get

Prices are higher here because we have more money. Simple economics.

You quoted my post where I showed our dole is well over double what they get in the UK, that just proves my point.

It's been like that for quite a number of years lets go back to 1989 England was cheaper then 2000 England was cheaper then and now England was and still is cheaper and they have a health service that's free,there primary secondary schools are free you just have to put a uninform on the kids back
You cannot compare 2 different country's because there are so many differences

gcgirl · 06-02-2012 02:26PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

Just take a look at goods same companies Tesco and the like, uk and Ireland some how they are the same but the prices are higher in Ireland while it's cheaper in England that I don't get

Prices are higher here because we have more money. Simple economics.

You quoted my post where I showed our dole is well over double what they get in the UK, that just proves my point.

gcgirl wrote: »

Plus where you'd get the prices for bread milk and eggs ? 12 eggs cost around 2 euro in aldi and 2 lt milk is 1.60 but your talking 25% dearer in the local shop

As I said, the garage near me. Texaco at the spawell.

2litre milk in Dunnes is €1.19.

No it's not tesco, dunnes, aldi, Supervalu, lidi all the super markets it's 1.60

Leo Dowling · 06-02-2012 02:27PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Prices are higher here because we have more money. Simple economics.

You quoted my post where I showed our dole is well over double what they get in the UK, that just proves my point.

So the supermarkets are increasing all their prices because of the social welfare rates? I think you're looking for the conspiracy theories forum.

Jobseekers do not have adequate income

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