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DIY external wall insulation

  • 24-09-2011 12:25PM
    #1
    madigan94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 ✭


    I wonder if anyone has done this themselves to a house. I have been told that you have to be licenced to buy the External EPS boards, that they are only available to insulation contractors.

    My house was built with 9" hollow blocks and the price quoted was 14000 euro minus 4000 grant... 10000 in total. Very expensive.

    How much cheaper would it be to do it myself.

    Cheers


Comments

  • #2
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    madigan94 wrote: »
    I wonder if anyone has done this themselves to a house. I have been told that you have to be licenced to buy the External EPS boards, that they are only available to insulation contractors.

    My house was built with 9" hollow blocks and the price quoted was 14000 euro minus 4000 grant... 10000 in total. Very expensive.

    How much cheaper would it be to do it myself.

    Cheers

    madness, good luck with that


  • #3
    gears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭gears


    I'm not trying to be arguementative here but why is it madness? Are these systems not simply and EPS board fixed to a wall with a mesh over them to allow a plaster finish, I 've been wondering why they are so expensive to.


  • #4
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,845 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    as far as i know, the NSAI certificate is only applicable if certified installers are used.

    you should have a look at some of the nsai agrement certificates to see what is involved with
    a: the system, its products and process
    b: its installation


    it may be simple in theory but in practise is a whole other story.


  • #5
    gears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭gears


    Surely the only time a certified system would be needed is where a grant was involved so if someone wanted to insulate a section or one wall of a house would it not be more cost effectice to assemble the materials from the cheapest source and install as a certified system would be.


  • #6
    madigan94
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 ✭madigan94


    I am not too pushed about NSAI certification. Looking at some of the houses that have been done around me it looks straight forward enough.
    If i can purchase the same products or similar that they use I should be able to do it cheaper.
    Buying the EPS is the issue. I have been told you have to be a licenced contractor to source it.
    I know of one local compay where the 2 running it have no trade qualifications between them and they use foreign workers.

    I cant see what the issue is in doing it myself is. I imagine it can be done DIY cheaper than going through the whole SEI grant scheme


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  • #7
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,845 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    if an uncertifed system is used on a new build, then it must be ignored from the point of view of the BER assessment and compliance with building regulations.


  • #8
    gears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭gears


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    if an uncertifed system is used on a new build, then it must be ignored from the point of view of the BER assessment and compliance with building regulations.

    Understood, but I don't think the OP is speaking of a new build. Surely if the components are the same and all is installed with care and attention could a "kit" not be put together and used on a home, "caveat emptor" of course.


  • #9
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    madigan94 wrote: »
    I am not too pushed about NSAI certification. Looking at some of the houses that have been done around me it looks straight forward enough.
    If i can purchase the same products or similar that they use I should be able to do it cheaper.
    Buying the EPS is the issue. I have been told you have to be a licenced contractor to source it.
    I know of one local compay where the 2 running it have no trade qualifications between them and they use foreign workers.

    I cant see what the issue is in doing it myself is. I imagine it can be done DIY cheaper than going through the whole SEI grant scheme
    for a start can you plaster?
    also would you consider doing a course in it before starting?
    if you have look around this forum starting here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056166150
    you see there pros and cons to doing it and the cons mainly relate to poor workmanship and a lack of understanding of detailing and building science.
    gears wrote: »
    Are these systems not simply and EPS board fixed to a wall with a mesh over them to allow a plaster finish, I 've been wondering why they are so expensive to.
    yes a lot of it is labour but there's also
    Insulation plinth
    Insulation standard
    Wall primer
    Adhesive
    Reinforcing layer
    Render primer
    Render
    Profiles
    Fixings for insulation
    Window sill
    oh yeah and having a clue how to do it properly!!!


  • #10
    mylesm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭mylesm


    yea but is this external wall insulation just becoming the latest thing for cowboys to exploit like replacement windows and PVC Gutters /Facias

    I find it interesting that in the same thread people complaining about the poor quality of the Building they have purchased and it not being finished properly and they expect that now in some cases the very people who built the orignal building have moved onto fitting external wall insulation and they will fit this to the proper standard ????

    In my experience after a lifetime working in Ireland your chances of getting a quality job are very low contractors cut corners all the time and Irish people accept shoddy work too easily

    I would love to get external insulation but I would only do it if I cuold get a German Crew to come over and do it


  • #11
    Radiotower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Radiotower


    It's not hard to get the NSAI certificates for each system which outlines how to install the system properly. I reckon a tradesman who takes pride in his work can do it properly - ideally a plasterer to get the finish right but other than that it can't be that hard to fix insulation to wall.
    BryanF wrote: »

    yes a lot of it is labour but there's also
    Insulation plinth
    Insulation standard
    Wall primer
    Adhesive
    Reinforcing layer
    Render primer
    Render
    Profiles
    Fixings for insulation
    Window sill
    oh yeah and having a clue how to do it properly!!!

    Don't forget extra cost of:
    Getting the Electric and Gas Meter moved by ESB and Bord Gais
    Removing footpaths if they are too high
    Removing soffit to extend insulation and eliminate thermal bridge
    Providing ventilation to rooms if none already exists
    Scaffolding
    and other things which may be particular to your house

    It cost €3000 to register with NSAI to be a registered contractor and €1850 a year after that which adds to their cost


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  • #12
    Freddio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Freddio


    I cannot think that there can be too much science involved with installing external insulation. One would probably find that the savings involved with doing it directly, outside the scope of the grant. would be greater than doing it through the grant scheme. Incidentally, of late, many of the installations in the last few years are failing, grant or no grant, licenced tradesmen or not.
    A poster mentioned appointing a good quality tradesman who takes pride in his work- this is the secret of all good work.


  • #13
    Andrew_Doran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Andrew_Doran


    Freddio wrote: »
    I cannot think that there can be too much science involved with installing external insulation.

    There is quite a bit to it, but when you strip away the newness of it, it's normal building work.

    I think there is at least one company out there doing DIY packages, from memory (I could be wrong) they help with the scaffolding and rendering.

    As ever the design and the little details are the tricky bit with anything.. As you said about the quality tradesman.


  • #14
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    EWI is a very specialised application, make no mistake. I have been involved with a number of DIY installations that have failed due to a number of issues but all comes down to lack of knowledge about the 'system' and the compatibility of the various elements. Obviously where these systems fail, there is no warranty comeback.

    First of all, although it isnt recommended, you can buy EPS (or any other) insulation for this application - where you will struggle though is getting a suitable polymer render supplier to provide their render for the application unless they are supplying the entire 'system' (this is where it gets expensive as a margin is added at every stage!). You cant use standard sand/cement render as this is not flexible enough to accomodate flexing of the insulation.

    Secondly, by the time you buy the insulation, the render (basecoat, finish coat etc), fixings, profiles etc it is never going to be a 'cheap' system but is infinitely better than the alternative of internal drylining. The savings you will make going DIY will be relatively small but could lead to problems in the long term

    Thirdly, EWI is a particularly onerous application for any insulation as it is exposed to relatively high temperature fluctations, this puts significant stress on the insulation but therefore also on the render.

    Best advice is to speak to a few reputable system providers and get them to recommend their best installers, after that its down to price.


  • #15
    Freddio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Freddio


    PROJECT K wrote: »
    EWI is a very specialised application, make no mistake. I have been involved with a number of DIY installations that have failed due to a number of issues but all comes down to lack of knowledge about the 'system' and the compatibility of the various elements. Obviously where these systems fail, there is no warranty comeback.

    First of all, although it isnt recommended, you can buy EPS (or any other) insulation for this application - where you will struggle though is getting a suitable polymer render supplier to provide their render for the application unless they are supplying the entire 'system' (this is where it gets expensive as a margin is added at every stage!). You cant use standard sand/cement render as this is not flexible enough to accomodate flexing of the insulation.

    Secondly, by the time you buy the insulation, the render (basecoat, finish coat etc), fixings, profiles etc it is never going to be a 'cheap' system but is infinitely better than the alternative of internal drylining. The savings you will make going DIY will be relatively small but could lead to problems in the long term

    Thirdly, EWI is a particularly onerous application for any insulation as it is exposed to relatively high temperature fluctations, this puts significant stress on the insulation but therefore also on the render.

    Best advice is to speak to a few reputable system providers and get them to recommend their best installers, after that its down to price.

    I appreciate the points made but I suppose what I meant was that as another poster said, stripped down, it's normal building work. I'm also not necessarily suggesting one should do it themselves- government incentive schemes seem to have the opposite effect of what they set out to achieve. They unfortunately drive prices up- I cite the bike to work scheme which though honourable, has only served to bump up set bike prices. In the insulation scheme, I feel the prices for materials are extortionate and there are companies going around installing items which really are not that mysterious. Everyone is concerned with 'getting the grant' when maybe it might be better to spend your normal amount outside the scope, with a decent chippie who has pride in his work.
    My tuppence is from almost 20 years spent on site (architect).


  • #16
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,845 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    As far as i know, any product guarantee will be void unless installed by a certifed company.


  • #17
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    Freddio wrote: »
    I appreciate the points made but I suppose what I meant was that as another poster said, stripped down, it's normal building work. I'm also not necessarily suggesting one should do it themselves- government incentive schemes seem to have the opposite effect of what they set out to achieve. They unfortunately drive prices up- I cite the bike to work scheme which though honourable, has only served to bump up set bike prices. In the insulation scheme, I feel the prices for materials are extortionate and there are companies going around installing items which really are not that mysterious. Everyone is concerned with 'getting the grant' when maybe it might be better to spend your normal amount outside the scope, with a decent chippie who has pride in his work.
    My tuppence is from almost 20 years spent on site (architect).

    Sorry i may have misunderstood you - i agree, the grant scheme does tend to drive prices upwards, i would personally avoid and stick with a competitive quote from a reputable system supplier...


  • #18
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,781 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ....I think DIY EWI would be daft to undertake, for all the reasons above. Even your basic house insurance may be affected............

    My main point though is why you think EPS/XPS is hard to get hold of - it's widely available.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #19
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,781 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Freddio wrote: »
    I feel the prices for materials are extortionate .

    ....prices of raw materials are not affected by whether there's a grant or not. The amount of XPS production diverted to EWI is miniscule.

    Just some of the reasons material prices have increase :
    1. Reduction in demand
    2. Margin on reduced output level at the factory gate, just to maintain cost of production on the reduced demand volumes
    3. Inputs - Energy, Transport, Raw Materials
    4. Taxes - particularly levies (e.g. Transport) and Carbon Taxes on fuels (both for transport and production)

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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