Garda Immigration to replaced by Civil Servants

An Udaras · 07-12-2011 05:34PM #1

In recent weeks there have been several articles in different Irish news papers including the Irish Indo and the Star about civil servants in the DOJ being offered the opportunity to serve in as part of a pilot scheme as Border Guards within the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin Airport.

They will augment current Garda officers on the booths and the rumor among friends of mine serving currently with GNIB is that if the pilot scheme is successful that civil servants will take over the Garda role totally.

In a similar manner to how Custom officers are recruited from Revenue's civil servants.

Could we see an Irish Border Agency in a similar manner to the UK Border Agency who are all civil servants and not Home Office Police taking over the role from the GNIB/Gardai???

Delancey · 07-12-2011 06:40PM

Frankly Ireland is out of line with most other European countries with immigration being handled by the Police as opposed to a dedicated Immigration/Border service.
Changes to the way things are done have been well-flagged for quite some time now.

have_a_go_hero · 07-12-2011 07:04PM

it would be a good idea...get the Gardai doing something more productive...which will hopefully contribute to reduction in crime levels.

goldie fish · 07-12-2011 09:14PM

Customs and border are done by a single agency in the UK nowdays.

djk1000 · 07-12-2011 09:19PM

It always struck me as odd that trained Gardai spent a lot of their time checking passports. Makes sense to keep a smaller number of Gardai for investigations/arrests/detentions/deportations and leave the run of the mill stuff to clerical staff.

Spacedog · 07-12-2011 09:22PM

On one hand I'm thinking emigrants are not criminals and so the police shouldn't necessary do the job, but on the other hand they deserve to be treated better than to have to deal with our lazy, incompetent civil servants.

belacqua_ · 08-12-2011 12:08AM

goldie fish wrote: »

Customs and border are done by a single agency in the UK nowdays.

Have the UK done away with customs officers entirely now, Goldie, are former uniformed customs officers now UK Border Agency Officers? I see that their cutters have been re-flagged and re-liveried.

Dub Counsel · 08-12-2011 12:26PM

Spacedog wrote: »

On one hand I'm thinking emigrants are not criminals and so the police shouldn't necessary do the job, but on the other hand they deserve to be treated better than to have to deal with our lazy, incompetent civil servants.

There are thousands of civil servants I'm sure like every section in life there are some lazy ones but using a broad brush statement is not acceptable, you would not get away with it if you referred to a particular race in the same manner. My experience dealing with the Tax Office and DFA, Dublin City Council is the opposite.

Dub Counsel · 08-12-2011 12:38PM

Friend in Justice confirms it. She says they are still at the planning stage and have not iron out how the pilot will work, when it will start and whether GNIB will co-operate with it. Kind of hoping turkeys will vote for Christmas ! Also no one knows what will happen to the civil servants at the end of the six months.

Who ever does the job at Dublin Airport its an important one, do we want a known terrorist to walk into our country or a child trafficker?
GNIB do a good job there and if they are paid over the mark its a price worth paying.

Justice wants to replace high paid Garda with the lowest paid civil servants possible. Don't think it is a good plan or that it will work. Maybe after six months it will be dropped.

The UKBA are no model to go on. They let people into the UK sometimes without checking passports properly. Be worried as we have a common border with the UK.

G_R · 10-12-2011 11:45AM

Dub Counsel wrote: »

The UKBA are no model to go on. They let people into the UK sometimes without checking passports properly. Be worried as we have a common border with the UK.

To be fair, the amount of times I've been through Dublin Airport and had my passport just handed back to me with being so much as even looked at at Passport Control is ridiculous.

Jumpy · 10-12-2011 11:48AM

Do GNIB handle naturalisation requests?

Because 27 months is the current wait. Thats just insane.

Spacedog · 11-12-2011 01:44PM

Dub Counsel wrote: »

There are thousands of civil servants I'm sure like every section in life there are some lazy ones but using a broad brush statement is not acceptable, you would not get away with it if you referred to a particular race in the same manner. My experience dealing with the Tax Office and DFA, Dublin City Council is the opposite.

This unbiased opinion was brought to you by Dublin City Council.

PCPhoto · 11-12-2011 01:55PM

its a strange one ... on one hand you want the gardai to get out there and do something more productive than checking passports..or simply waving people through.

but...on the other hand we've heard so many times of the incompetencies within the civil service and the lack of accountability and lack of willingness to remove people who cant/wont do their job from the position.

if only the government could find some other way... maybe take people off the dole and let the current officers train them up to do the job, I'd much rather the jobs went to someone who is eager to be productive (which is not something which is encouraged by the unions in the civil service)

nqemt · 02-03-2012 09:39AM

DOJ person here,
All of the DOJ staff in the new Border Management Unit all have extensive experience in checking passports, as most of them have been working in the INIS offices around Dublin.
The GNIB will have a reduced staffing because of this, but DOJ in Immiigration offices have the training with some over 10yrs in the job.

muppet01 · 02-03-2012 08:33PM

Hi, has it been set out as to the process of detention/denial of entry?. Will GNIB maintain a presence as authorised officers...?

Terrontress · 02-03-2012 08:47PM

I always thought that the Dublin Airport arrivals hall needs one Garda only on duty. When someone checking sees an issue they call the Garda over instead of having a Garda check every passport.

The UK Border guys look every inch the cop. Black t-shirts, handcuffs, stab proof vests.

Eru · 02-03-2012 11:55PM

Current system: Trained Garda checks passport. Refuses entry to person. person become violent and Garda arrests them. 1 person from start to finish.

New system: Garda traines civil servant. Civil servant now required to admin new agency and man passport control. Civil servant in booth checks passport. Refuses entry to person. Person become violent and civil servant must call gardai who will then arrest them. 3 people now.

Will ve about as efficient and time saving as the current system with GISC proved to be and whats worse, people think its a good idea.

First Aid Ireland · 03-03-2012 11:54AM

Don't the airport have their own police service that they can call if a person gets violent? just like when it happens on a plane? Surely it can't be a regular enough scenario to play a big part in influencing policy.

Seems to me like a waste of time to have gardai looking at passports. I guess we should have invested in an automated system like a lot of other countries when we had the money during the good times.

I think it's a good idea overall, though.

Rawhead · 03-03-2012 05:54PM

Eru wrote: »

Current system: Trained Garda checks passport. Refuses entry to person. person become violent and Garda arrests them. 1 person from start to finish.

New system: Garda traines civil servant. Civil servant now required to admin new agency and man passport control. Civil servant in booth checks passport. Refuses entry to person. Person become violent and civil servant must call gardai who will then arrest them. 3 people now.

Will ve about as efficient and time saving as the current system with GISC proved to be and whats worse, people think its a good idea.

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

bluetop · 03-03-2012 08:01PM

Rawhead wrote: »

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

Plus the Country is broke so a saving made is what they are looking for, plus as one poster said they have Airport Police to deal with things in the Airport, let them do their job.
I have noticed over the last couple of weeks lights etc been turned off at stations unlike before they would all be left on, signs of the times savings having to be made all over. !

Eru · 05-03-2012 05:51PM

Rawhead wrote: »

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

First Aid Ireland · 05-03-2012 06:11PM

Eru wrote: »

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

But presumably the garda on the desk needs to call other gardai to remove the person he's just arrested? or do the lads on the desk have a car on site to remove them on their own to the station?

Also, gardai get frequently called to A+E to deal with aggressive patients. Security deal with some of them. But I've certainly been with patients where the gardai needed to be called in.

An Udaras · 05-03-2012 06:37PM

Eru wrote: »

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

Just to confirm a warranted officer of a state airports Police Services are not Not Security Guards for guidance please refer yourself to the Private Security Act 2004 which is the act which governs Private Security/Security Guards in Ireland which specifically excludes Authorised Officers/Airport Police from its remit.

The Airport Police Service provide frontline policing to the state airports and operate generally under their own legislation i.e. the Aviation & Airport Acts 1936 -2004. If you don't know about a profession please don't try and degrade it by uneducated assumptions.

The APS and GNIB have a very positive working relationship. Members of Airport Police are recognised in the courts as Police Officer in their own rights as they carry out the function of such and are issued with warrant cards and have their own statute powers to Stop & Search, Detain & Question and Arrest within their own legislation as well as "Any person arrests" for arrestable offences or others under common law.

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process for the DPP etc.. once the APS have completed their custody process.

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

Who has the local knowledge? Who's trained to operate airside? Who will respond to an incident faster? Day to Day policing in state airports is the responsibility of the Airport Police. Gardai have enough of a battle on their hands with serious crime in the cities and around the country.

Immigration has never been taken seriously in this country how many times have each of us been simply waived through immigration cause we simply looked Irish enough.. maybe a new direction in Immigration policing may improve and tighten our borders.

Rawhead · 05-03-2012 06:59PM

Eru wrote: »

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

What percentage of people passing through immigration are detained?
Of those people how many are violent?
How big of a deal is it to spend 4 weeks training people to check for forged or altered documents?
If they have a problem then they call the Garda on duty, he/she decides if the case needs further investigation.
20 booths staffed by 20 civil servants on €35k per year with 5 Gardai and a sergeant on duty.
vs
20 booths staffed by 20 Gardai + 2 sergeants on €55-60k per year.

It's not rocket science and by your argument then we might as well replace all the traffic lights with Gardai on point duty as they could be ready to deal with an accident if it happens.

The old joey's might be only security guards but they can help deal with the rampant lunatics that seem to kick off constantly in the immigration hall.

kub · 06-03-2012 12:38AM

An Udaras wrote: »

Just to confirm a warranted officer of a state airports Police Services are not Not Security Guards for guidance please refer yourself to the Private Security Act 2004 which is the act which governs Private Security/Security Guards in Ireland which specifically excludes Authorised Officers/Airport Police from its remit.

The Airport Police Service provide frontline policing to the state airports and operate generally under their own legislation i.e. the Aviation & Airport Acts 1936 -2004. If you don't know about a profession please don't try and degrade it by uneducated assumptions.

The APS and GNIB have a very positive working relationship. Members of Airport Police are recognised in the courts as Police Officer in their own rights as they carry out the function of such and are issued with warrant cards and have their own statute powers to Stop & Search, Detain & Question and Arrest within their own legislation as well as "Any person arrests" for arrestable offences or others under common law.

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process for the DPP etc.. once the APS have completed their custody process.

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

Who has the local knowledge? Who's trained to operate airside? Who will respond to an incident faster? Day to Day policing in state airports is the responsibility of the Airport Police. Gardai have enough of a battle on their hands with serious crime in the cities and around the country.

Immigration has never been taken seriously in this country how many times have each of us been simply waived through immigration cause we simply looked Irish enough.. maybe a new direction in Immigration policing may improve and tighten our borders.

Just wondering so, would a member of the Airport Police have the power to stop Gardai from entering the airside of an airport in the event of a pursuit? Especially when the vehicle being pursued has already entered that area?

Elessar · 06-03-2012 10:23AM

There will always be Gardai in Dublin Airport. AFAIK, by law the airport must have an armed presence. From talking to the guards there it seems the DOJ will come in full time and replace 90% of them, but there will always be at least one guard on duty at all times (a sergeant IIRC).

Nothing has happened as of yet though, I certainly haven't seen any DOJ staff in T2 yet.

An Udaras · 06-03-2012 01:14PM

@Elessar they have definitely been in T2 so far.

@Kub im afraid I cannot really answer your question, but I can direct you to the cork hijack incident on YouTube and just remind you the Airport Police are just another agency that would support and operate alongside the Gardai in response any incident on their patch.

Eru · 06-03-2012 05:04PM

kub wrote: »

Just wondering so, would a member of the Airport Police have the power to stop Gardai from entering the airside of an airport in the event of a pursuit? Especially when the vehicle being pursued has already entered that area?

Would a privately employed authorised officer to use their correct term (which carries no power of arrest, detention or investigation higher than a citizens arrest) stop the national police force from effecting an arrest? No, there may be health and safety issues but of course they cant.

An Udaras wrote: »

@Elessar they have definitely been in T2 so far.

@Kub im afraid I cannot really answer your question, but I can direct you to the cork hijack incident on YouTube and just remind you the Airport Police are just another agency that would support and operate alongside the Gardai in response any incident on their patch.

They have no 'patch' because they arent police. Instead they are employed by the DAA to offer security within airports similar to the security in a bank or on the Luas, etc. They have a power of arrest no higher than you do but they can issue a fine for certain minor offences which you can completely ignore and not pay.

An Udaras wrote: »

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process

AP have no power of detention, custody or prosecution. None whatseover so this comment shows you dont really know the issue. They only have powers under the air navigation act which allows them to detain people pending garda arrival ONLY.

An Udaras wrote: »

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

I know from being a Garda in Dublin airport that they call the actual police to deal with crime. Your comment suggests that because a shop calls security for a shoplifter ahead of Gardai that this gives security some form of authority, it doesn't.

An Udaras wrote: »

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

They should call the people with the power to actually arrest and prosecute the matter however I would assume people like yourself would call the AP as they dont understand the difference. If your suggesting the AP detain people abd dont call Gardai then your making an allegation of wrongful arrest and false imprisonment.

Interestingly, what your suggesting is that we will have a scenario where a refused person is now taking up a civil servant, a AP and a Garda to deal with them instead of 1 Garda.

Rawhead wrote: »

What percentage of people passing through immigration are detained?
Of those people how many are violent?
How big of a deal is it to spend 4 weeks training people to check for forged or altered documents?
If they have a problem then they call the Garda on duty, he/she decides if the case needs further investigation.
20 booths staffed by 20 civil servants on €35k per year with 5 Gardai and a sergeant on duty.
vs
20 booths staffed by 20 Gardai + 2 sergeants on €55-60k per year.

It's not rocket science and by your argument then we might as well replace all the traffic lights with Gardai on point duty as they could be ready to deal with an accident if it happens.

The old joey's might be only security guards but they can help deal with the rampant lunatics that seem to kick off constantly in the immigration hall.

so in the first part, theres little issues and Gardai arent needed but at the end the place is full of fighting lunatics 24/7. Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department.

Its ok if you don't believe me but this is just number moving by the government to try and look like they aren't eroding policing in this country while also managing to save money. Because after all, its not like the recruitment freeze and budget cuts have had a negative effect on the health system, schools and police stations is it?

Oh and there is a Garda station inside the airport by the way folks, prisoners are very easily walked across from arrivals.

An Udaras · 06-03-2012 05:49PM

You have a complete mis-understanding of their role and powers and if as you say you are a Garda and have served in the airport you should at least have had a understanding of the powers of the Airport Police and that of the Aviation & Airports Acts which incorporates their police powers under the various Air Navigation & Transport Acts.

Your post does not warrant response not only because I would be off the topic of Guards being replaced by civilians but it's so full of inaccuracies it's scary.

Ha and good one advising board members not to pay fines issued by the Airport Police which they are statutorily empowered to issue when enforcing Section 15 of the state airport act 2004. Sure a person only risks a prosecution then by the Polis for not paying. Well done you..

Rawhead · 06-03-2012 07:13PM

Eru wrote: »

so in the first part, theres little issues and Gardai arent needed but at the end the place is full of fighting lunatics 24/7. Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department.

Its ok if you don't believe me but this is just number moving by the government to try and look like they aren't eroding policing in this country while also managing to save money. Because after all, its not like the recruitment freeze and budget cuts have had a negative effect on the health system, schools and police stations is it?

Oh and there is a Garda station inside the airport by the way folks, prisoners are very easily walked across from arrivals.

Sarcasm my friend, sarcasm.

If you want to believe that having a Garda sitting in a booth for 8 hours looking at passports is a good use of resources then there is no point in arguing with you.

Must watch my back next time I'm passing through south central arrivals.

Eru · 06-03-2012 07:17PM

An Udaras wrote: »

You have a complete mis-understanding of their role and powers and if as you say you are a Garda and have served in the airport you should at least have had a understanding of the powers of the Airport Police and that of the Aviation & Airports Acts which incorporates their police powers under the various Air Navigation & Transport Acts.

Your post does not warrant response not only because I would be off the topic of Guards being replaced by civilians but it's so full of inaccuracies it's scary.

Ha and good one advising board members not to pay fines issued by the Airport Police which they are statutorily empowered to issue when enforcing Section 15 of the state airport act 2004. Sure a person only risks a prosecution then by the Polis for not paying. Well done you..

If your so sure your right, post a thread quoting their powers and the exact section of law, its pretty easy to do, here it is: Section 33, Air navigation act 1988. I direct your attention to section 1,B which carries no power of arrest for refusing to give your name and address nor a power of detention meaning I can turn around and walk away.

Also section 2 which speaks for itself concerning their prosecution ability.

They are security with slightly and I do mean slightly, more powers than my grandmother.

Garda Immigration to replaced by Civil Servants

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