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How would you reform Irish Politics?

  • 09-03-2012 12:32PM
    #1
    Posts: 0


    I would:
    I`ll start:

    Direct Democracy would have to play a bigger part in society. Power to the people.

    Directly Elect the Taoiseach & Minister for Finance.
    Directly Elect all Ministries - these then work under whatever budget the Minister for Finance allows them.

    Justice: Reform the Gardai starting with making it more independent from the political system by banning the current practice of the cabinet appointing all Garda promotions of Superintendent and above.
    Ban the labour court from wage setting.
    Introduce mandatory sentences for repeat offences. I would be more lenient than the US 3 strikes and your out system.

    Property Market:
    Release NAMA properties. Firesales & reformed bankruptcy - 3 yrs and your out.
    Neuter An Bord Pleana, An Taisce and slimdown local authority planning agencies by removing the zoning system completely.
    Allow the building of houses under 2,000 sq ft and under 2 stories in height without planning permission once they are outside of national parks. Every application for planning be it commercial or residential or agricultural goes through the planning departments already so why zone. No need & allowing people to build houses without the red tape makes everything far more efficient and allows the government to slim down.

    I would abolish the Seanad, the presidency, local authorities & all quangos. Create half a dozen regional authorities with some things shared in a HQ. Cut down on duplication. Streamlined Government.

    Open up and reform the insurance industry, electricity and reform upward only rents.
    Voting rights for Irish abroad.

    Now its your turn...............what would you do?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Neuter An Bord Pleana, An Taisce and slimdown local authority planning agencies by removing the zoning system completely.

    Laissaiz-Faire planning, good luck with that. You pretty much had that in the Co Co's during the boom years. Look where it got us.
    Allow the building of houses under 2,000 sq ft and under 2 stories in height without planning permission once they are outside of national parks. Every application for planning be it commercial or residential or agricultural goes through the planning departments already so why zone. No need & allowing people to build houses without the red tape makes everything far more efficient and allows the government to slim down.

    To be honest, this sounds to me like you do not understand the planning process. Zoning is to tell the planners what is acceptable and the development standards for each area. That is democratically agreed with the people through the council. You post smacks of having been turned down for a one-off house to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,988 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I would:
    I`ll start:

    Direct Democracy would have to play a bigger part in society. Power to the people.

    Directly Elect the Taoiseach & Minister for Finance.
    Directly Elect all Ministries - these then work under whatever budget the Minister for Finance allows them.

    Justice: Reform the Gardai starting with making it more independent from the political system by banning the current practice of the cabinet appointing all Garda promotions of Superintendent and above.
    Ban the labour court from wage setting.
    Introduce mandatory sentences for repeat offences. I would be more lenient than the US 3 strikes and your out system.

    Property Market:
    Release NAMA properties. Firesales & reformed bankruptcy - 3 yrs and your out.
    Neuter An Bord Pleana, An Taisce and slimdown local authority planning agencies by removing the zoning system completely.
    Allow the building of houses under 2,000 sq ft and under 2 stories in height without planning permission once they are outside of national parks. Every application for planning be it commercial or residential or agricultural goes through the planning departments already so why zone. No need & allowing people to build houses without the red tape makes everything far more efficient and allows the government to slim down.

    I would abolish the Seanad, the presidency, local authorities & all quangos. Create half a dozen regional authorities with some things shared in a HQ. Cut down on duplication. Streamlined Government.

    Open up and reform the insurance industry, electricity and reform upward only rents.
    Voting rights for Irish abroad.

    Now its your turn...............what would you do?
    Not a bad set there, would agree with the vast majority of that except the lax planning proposals, but I like the idea of directly electing the Taoiseach and cabinet and with the abolition of the Seanad and Presidency. I know others will wail that we need these checks and balances but in practice, they do very little I feel. I think we should be able to elect the decision makers directly like you suggest.

    I would certainly want to see an end to the PRSTV with multi seat constituencies system as we currently have. I (as I have alluded to elsewhere) would also want the regional assemblies and city councils to have real power and leave the Dail to making laws, which is what it should be doing.

    I've been refused for planning by the county council and ABP but I would not want a free for all under any circumstances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    More money and power in the hands of local government. But with real accountability and as little wast as possible

    Minister's free from parish pump politics like fixing potholes and getting medical cards for people. That should be dealt with by local Councillor's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    woodoo wrote: »
    More money and power in the hands of local government. But with real accountability and as little wast as possible

    Minister's free from parish pump politics like fixing potholes and getting medical cards for people. That should be dealt with by local Councillor's.
    Have to agree with this. The biggest problem with governance of Ireland is how detached Irish people are from their own destiny save having to go via national channels. Their interests ought to be assumed at local level by small, accountable local governments.

    Otherwise, I would suggest that Ireland's democratic architecture is generally impressively designed, especially when one considers that it was largely determined during the late 1930s by a semi despot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    I would:
    I`ll start:

    Direct Democracy would have to play a bigger part in society. Power to the people.?

    Yes, and how many times would we get to vote on something and how often would the law change. Could the no voters have gone for Lisbon III to get us to reject it? Could we have a situation where we vote to ban non-nationals from purchasing property, where we vote for abortion this week, against it next month and for it next year? How do you decide when something is decided? Will we spend our lives voting over the popular things rather than those that are necessary for running our country? For example let us say there was a referendum to cut top civil servants pay by 70% and it was passed but a referendum at the same time that nurses pay be cut by 25% is rejected? Result: Nurses paid higher than Secretary Generals?

    Directly Elect the Taoiseach & Minister for Finance.?

    Look at the list of candidates who put themselves forward for President. Would you want any of them for Taoiseach or Minister for Finance? Those are the calibre of candidates we experienced for the last directly elected post?

    Directly Elect all Ministries - these then work under whatever budget the Minister for Finance allows them.?

    Would you retain the notion of collective cabinet responsibility. If not, how would the government manage if the Socialist Party Minister for Social Protection said I am going to increase all social welfare by 20% and if I run out of money, the Finance people should just give it to me.

    If we keep it, who is going to referee the row between the SF Foreign Minister, the FG Jobs Minister, the Green Environment Minister and the aforementioned Socialist Party Social Protection Minister all while the Minister for Finance David McWilliams says it wasn't really his idea?
    Justice: Reform the Gardai starting with making it more independent from the political system by banning the current practice of the cabinet appointing all Garda promotions of Superintendent and above.?

    Who will decide on the promotions now that you have abolished all quangos including the independent Commission for Public Service Appointments?

    Ban the labour court from wage setting.?


    And how will you maintain industrial relations harmony? I see this one a lot on boards, along with the cut public service pay one and I have never seen a coherent plan for dealing with the inevitable aftermath of strikes etc.
    Introduce mandatory sentences for repeat offences. I would be more lenient than the US 3 strikes and your out system.?

    Prison service capacity? Have you also abolished the Irish Prison Service - it is a quango, you know.

    Property Market:
    Release NAMA properties. Firesales & reformed bankruptcy - 3 yrs and your out.?

    The taxpayer paid €31 bn for €75 bn worth of loans. I would rather we took the best chance of getting most of our money back rather than adding further shocks to the market.
    Neuter An Bord Pleana, An Taisce and slimdown local authority planning agencies by removing the zoning system completely.?

    Recipe for disaster, where would we build roads, schools and hospitals if there is no zoning for them.

    Allow the building of houses under 2,000 sq ft and under 2 stories in height without planning permission once they are outside of national parks. Every application for planning be it commercial or residential or agricultural goes through the planning departments already so why zone. No need & allowing people to build houses without the red tape makes everything far more efficient and allows the government to slim down.?

    No problem if this means that each one-off house pays the full economic cost of supplying electricity, supplying broadband, phone, etc and pays the full economic cost for the maintenance of any tertiary roads.
    I would abolish the Seanad, the presidency, local authorities & all quangos. Create half a dozen regional authorities with some things shared in a HQ. Cut down on duplication. Streamlined Government.?

    Who would give grants to farmers instead of Teagasc?
    Who would control our airspace and ensure planes don't crash if we get rid of the Irish Aviation Authority?
    Who would run the buses instead of Dublin Bus?

    Really, it is only a slogan to say we are getting rid of quangos without specifying it a bit more.

    Open up and reform the insurance industry, electricity and reform upward only rents.?

    No issues with this but the upward only rents is apparently a constitutional issue but hey we can always have another referendum.
    Voting rights for Irish abroad.

    Now its your turn...............what would you do?



    Why should those who have abandoned the country get a vote? They could vote for anything without having to suffer the consequences.

    Look I am not trying to shoot down people who have enthusiastic ideas for changing things but radical change is not something irish people have shown any enthusiasm for ever.

    You have to remember that on two occasions the Irish people have rejected proposals to change our voting system.

    Therefore when thinking of potential changes, maybe err on the side of what is possible.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    a coup


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    I would:
    I`ll start:

    Direct Democracy would have to play a bigger part in society. Power to the people.

    Directly Elect the Taoiseach & Minister for Finance.
    Directly Elect all Ministries - these then work under whatever budget the Minister for Finance allows them.

    Justice: Reform the Gardai starting with making it more independent from the political system by banning the current practice of the cabinet appointing all Garda promotions of Superintendent and above.
    Ban the labour court from wage setting.
    Introduce mandatory sentences for repeat offences. I would be more lenient than the US 3 strikes and your out system.

    Property Market:
    Release NAMA properties. Firesales & reformed bankruptcy - 3 yrs and your out.
    Neuter An Bord Pleana, An Taisce and slimdown local authority planning agencies by removing the zoning system completely.
    Allow the building of houses under 2,000 sq ft and under 2 stories in height without planning permission once they are outside of national parks. Every application for planning be it commercial or residential or agricultural goes through the planning departments already so why zone. No need & allowing people to build houses without the red tape makes everything far more efficient and allows the government to slim down.

    I would abolish the Seanad, the presidency, local authorities & all quangos. Create half a dozen regional authorities with some things shared in a HQ. Cut down on duplication. Streamlined Government.

    Open up and reform the insurance industry, electricity and reform upward only rents.
    Voting rights for Irish abroad.

    Now its your turn...............what would you do?

    I'd agree to... most of that. I personally think it goes a bit too far. Releasing NAMA properties and deregulating planning would both be far too unpleasant to merit consideration for instance.

    I don't think it's neccessary to have a direct election of ministries - but having the person who appoints the ministers open to direct election (i.e. Taoiseach) is quite important imo.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Feel free to throw in your own ideas people


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Push forward the claim on Rockall. We have lawyers working for the State so get them working.
    Maybe it's worth nothing, maybe it'll be worth something but no reason we should not push for it

    The Brits weren't slow or shy about their claim. Well they have centuries of experience
    Britain has strengthened its claim to the North Atlantic islet Rockall after approving plans to place a plaque on it.

    The Western Isles council, the nearest UK local authority to the rock, approved the plan from adventurer Andy Strangeway to replace an existing plaque from 1985.

    In 1972, the Isle of Rockall Act was passed, which claimed to make the rock officially part of Inverness-shire, Scotland.

    We have nothing to lose, maybe nothing to gain but it's worth going for.

    Dermot Ahern was aware of this and did SFA on the matter


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,764 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Directly Elect the Taoiseach & Minister for Finance.

    OK, so what happens if these two individuals can't work together, or have diametrically opposite views on how the the finances of the country should be ran?
    Currently Enda Kenny can sack Michael Noonan if the latter decides that income tax of 98% is a good idea, or that the lower VAT rate should be reduced to 1%.
    If Noonan was a directly elected MOF then what could Enda Kenny do about this?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    Cut TD numbers.
    Abolish The Seanad.
    Get pre-election pacts between parties ie if FG say they won't go into govt with Sinn Fein then they won't need a pact. FG and Labour would be interesting considering it's Labours Way or Frankfurts Way and even Leo's promise to Alan Dukes Anglo, Not Another Cent.

    We can dream I suppose!
    Power always comes before reform.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭guitarzero


    Everyone does what they wish and leave it to survival of the fittest, cutting to the chase in effect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    There are two possibilities for this thread.

    (1) A rant against the current situation linked to completely unfeasible radical solutions

    (2) A genuine examination of political systems in other countries to see what works well and what doesn't work well e.g. are there elements of the US political system that we should copy.

    As (1) seems to dominate, not much point in posting.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,796 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    The Swiss direct democracy seems, on balance, to be a postive way to conduct affair (BBC Link), Not quite sure about the "sex boxes" for the red light district though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭Revolution9


    I'd put an end to this "losing the party whip" nonsense and make ballot votes anonymous in the Dail. Maybe then TDs wouldn't be so afraid of going against the grain when their party proposes something they disagree with.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    I would have an elected executive branch of government as well as a legislative branch. Something akin to the US. What we meed in government is accountability and the ability for decisions to be made quickly and implimented. Not the go slow process and millions of reports needed by faceless public servants.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Re - Planning changes

    Texas avoided the property bubble in the US.
    The do not zone land there. In Texas you can buy 2/3 acres under an hour from a major city eg Houston or Dallas for 10,000 USD and under. You can get a log cabin type building
    and have a 2,000 sq ft house for 100 -150,000 USD all in.


    Why is this not a better system? Texas has one of the lowest costs of living in the US. It also has one of the most successful economies in the world. If it were an independent country it would be ranked 14th, one place ahead of Australia.

    http://econpost.com/texaseconomy/texas-economy-ranking-world


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    I'd start by reforming the libel laws. No true reform is possible in Irish politics so long as journalists are prevented from revealing the truth.

    I quite like our electoral system, despite all the whinging. The problem isn't so much the poor quality of the candidates as the poor quality of the voters (Electing parish pump idiots rather than national politicians)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    1) Repudiate the bank debt as it is not ours.
    2) Sell off state assets to pay for the money borrowed (and NEVER borrow again EVER)
    3) Leave The European Union political set up and return to a free trade agreement/free movement of people.
    4) Abolish ALL taxes (Capital gains/income/inheritance/corporate etc)
    5) Reduce the size of the Dail down to a handful of TD's, put power into the hands of the county councils (any mess ups will not be at national level), abolish the Seanad.
    6) Allow competing private currencies as well as Dollars, Yen, Sterling, Gold and Silver to circulate in addition to the Euro. Allow a free market banking system.
    7) Constitutional change - free speech American style, private property, gun rights, no taxation, bill of rights.
    8) Legalise marijuana and other drugs.
    9) Encourage a free market in education, healthcare etc.
    10) Dwindle down universal healthcare for those that really need it (no free healthcare for self inflicted injuries). Smaller HSE bill every year until it's abolished.
    11) Sell all lands, roads and government owned property and give everyone their full pensions and then abolish the pension scheme - people should be free to take care of themselves and their retirement.
    12) Deregulation.
    13) Get government out of legislating marriage (LGBT marriage).
    14) Abolish government departments or merge until they are completely abolished.
    15) ??????????
    16) PROFIT.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    The OP is not about reforming politics. Rather its a rag bag of personal demands that suit the OP and only the OP. It's certainly not "political reform" and reads like a collection of slogans with little or no grasp of what the issues are i.e. abolish all quangos when you know, alot of quangos actually do an important job like the medicines board. Moreso it mixes political reform with policy changes. Seriously OP, take a longer harder look at the issues rather then grabbing a few headlines from the Independent. There are usually good reasons for things being the way they are and it smacks of serious arrogence that you think you can fix the country with so brief knowledge. It's called populism and FF under bertie was the pinnacle of populist politics in this country.

    If one is to have a debate on reforming Irish Politics one has to have a shared understanding of the facts (not opinions such as whether we need planning or now).

    Starting with what a representative democracy is (which we have) which is probably the most representitive in the world with more. In fact, I am convinced that the over representation of interests like the OP's is the cause of our countries malaise (thats an opinion). For the most part representive democracy is used for a number of reasons:
    1. Speed of decision making - electorate voting on every little issue would mean the state grinds to a halt very quickly.
    2. Full time politicians have a better grasp (for the most part) of the issues since this is their full time job. Voters do not as the OP clearly shows).
    3. Politicians should vote for the Common Good rather than the narrow self interest a voter would have (the OP and his one off house).

    These are good solid reasons for not having direct democracy. Our idiotic repeat referendums are a classic example of this. Aside from speed, its obvious the general voter has no idea what they are voting for and contradict themselves by electing politicians who support the motion then vote against it and then vote the same politicians back in.

    Take the US as an overall example. It is at the other extreme at a federal level. It is not a simple representive democracy but a constitional democracy where the power of the electorate is specifically curtailed to avoid a "tyranny of the majority". For example, nobody votes for the US president directly. There was no Barak Obama on any ballot given to US Citizens. Rather you vote a representitive on a college of electors. These people then vote for the president. Obviously you will probably know who the elector will be (either republican or democratic party, sometimes independent) but this system was put in place to avoid the opposite system which is very similar to Ireland....

    The Weimer Republic - a liberal post WW1 democracy which had a lot of direct democracy elements. Where a certain Adolf Hitler used Direct democracy cunningly to restrict rights and become dictator.

    Now look at a state level at California which is a proponent of direct democracy, the eighth largest economy in the world but with some of the worst infrastructure in the US an repeated government shutdowns. Why? Well when you get to vote directly on taxation (direct democracy) people have this curious tendancy to vote for less tax. Amazing I know! Is this really what you want? Essentially whoever can create the biggest interest group wins. This occurs to an extent in Ireland now with our over representation and far to large an influence on civil servents and other professionals in the state sector.

    We need controls and counter weights, like for instance An Bord Planala/An Taisce and indeed the EU, to prevent or slow down bad policies such as procribed by the OP (the end of planning despite the serious evidence that one of housing is destroying the country side and building up huge social problems for the state).


    So my question is, do we have too much "democracy" in Ireland. Can we ratchet back the influence of people like the OP and others who have written down their rag bag me fein list. Can we replace these rather unknowledgable pronouncements and replace them with professional planners, professional economists, professional managers who might make mistakes from time to time but would in the main be informed by the COMMON GOOD and disregard bad policies from gombeen politics?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    micosoft wrote: »
    Take the US as an overall example. It is at the other extreme at a federal level. It is not a simple representive democracy but a constitional democracy where the power of the electorate is specifically curtailed to avoid a "tyranny of the majority". For example, nobody votes for the US president directly. There was no Barak Obama on any ballot given to US Citizens. Rather you vote a representitive on a college of electors. These people then vote for the president. Obviously you will probably know who the elector will be (either republican or democratic party, sometimes independent) but this system was put in place to avoid the opposite system which is very similar to Ireland....
    Nobody votes for the Taoiseach or the Ministers.
    Individuals essentially vote for electors who will subsequently elect the Government.

    In that sense, the US electoral system for the head of government strongly resembles the Irish system for the head of government.

    Which nullifies the above argument, I would suggest.
    The Weimer Republic - a liberal post WW1 democracy which had a lot of direct democracy elements. Where a certain Adolf Hitler used Direct democracy cunningly to restrict rights and become dictator.
    Which is apropos of nothing.

    Perhaps we should ban politicians with moustaches as well. After all, Hitler had a moustache, didn't he.
    Well when you get to vote directly on taxation (direct democracy) people have this curious tendancy to vote for less tax.
    That hasn't quite been the Swiss experience, where people have been known to vote in favour of higher taxes and even an increase in the price of bread.

    A more recent example from Swizterland
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0312/1224313152760.html
    Can we ratchet back the influence of people like the OP and others who have written down their rag bag me fein list. Can we replace these rather unknowledgable pronouncements and replace them with professional planners, professional economists, professional managers...
    And why would the latter group be any less interested in self promotion than the former group?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    later12 wrote: »
    Nobody votes for the Taoiseach or the Ministers.
    Individuals essentially vote for electors who will subsequently elect the Government.

    In that sense, the US electoral system for the head of government strongly resembles the Irish system for the head of government.

    Which nullifies the above argument, I would suggest.

    Well the OP's argument was that we should directly elect the executive. I'm showing that despite what many think, the head of the US executive is not directly elected for the very reasons the OP outlined. That was the point, not so much an argument.
    later12 wrote: »
    Which is apropos of nothing.

    Perhaps we should ban politicians with moustaches as well. After all, Hitler had a moustache, didn't he.

    True, but my point is that conventional wisdom in this country is that the more democratic something is the better it is. I'm simply showing that there are terrible examples of direct democracy where the electorate have been manipulated by populist referenda. Direct democracy /= better results.
    later12 wrote: »
    That hasn't quite been the Swiss experience, where people have been known to vote in favour of higher taxes and even an increase in the price of bread.

    A more recent example from Switzerland
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0312/1224313152760.html

    Which may not follow any more than the Weimer republic example. California would be a better example then Switzerland for Ireland, especially when you consider the Canton approach of the Swiss (so the Swiss directly see the results of their additional or reduced taxes) There have also been results (such as the ban on minarets) which are very controversial and one could argue that minoraties are not protected from populist votes in the swiss example. All debatable I agree.
    later12 wrote: »
    And why would the latter group be any less interested in self promotion than the former group?

    On this I agree with you. Any system depends on checks and balances. This is the nub of any debate on reforming the Irish Political system. I absolutely agree that if you tilt the system too far in any direction you will find some group takes advantage of it. I also think we need to look at local politics and local taxation. If people could directly vote on local matters but felt the results of these through increased or decreased taxation you might have a more considered electorate such as the swiss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    I'd put an end to this "losing the party whip" nonsense and make ballot votes anonymous in the Dail. Maybe then TDs wouldn't be so afraid of going against the grain when their party proposes something they disagree with.

    Can't do that; the electorate need to know how their representatives are voting.


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