What to do with Madigan?

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 10:57AM #1

In my opinion he's got the blueprint to be better than both ROG and Sexton, and his progression is frightening

So what do people think should happen to Madigan club wise in the short term?

Stay at Leinster where he might have to live without the starting 10 shirt in pivotal games for Leinster for 2 or 3 years?

Move to another province?

Move abroad and risk international isolation?

Personally I'd like to see Madigan in red, although I can't see it happening. Keatley clearly isn't up to it or even trusted by management

Hype710 · 01-04-2012 11:00AM

He's just signed a new two year contract with Leinster.

01-04-2012 11:01AM

Abso****ingnothing

You must realise that he's becoming the player he can be because of a coaching ticket, a team that rewards running rugby, a class act of a kicker allowing him shift such responsibility at this early stage of his career, and a willingness and a want to earn the Jersey of his team.

Beyond bizarre to move him from that situation!

danthefan · 01-04-2012 11:01AM

Firs things first - stop talking about him like he's a good that can be traded.

People realise he has a say in where he plays, right?

Hype710 wrote: »

He's just signed a new two year contract with Leinster.

Great news. Be coached by Joe Schmidt or Dutchy Holland. Hmmmmmmm.

Tox56 · 01-04-2012 11:02AM

I'll copy and paste what I said in the match thread:

I haven't read the whole thread, but most people seem to be suggesting Madigan should go to Munster. Surely if he was going to move, he would be best served to go to Ulster? A young, exciting backline, where 10 is probably the weakest area. He would probably have a field day there.

For now though, I think he would be best served to stay in Leinster. People seem to forget, 1 injury at 10 and that's it, we have nobody (once Berquist leaves). As has been said already, Madigan has played more for Leinster than Sexton this year, and if Sexton gets injured he moves straight in.

Sexton picks up an injury in the QF, Madigan plays a HEC Semi-Final for the defending champions, why would he move somewhere else? Joe has proven he trusts him, not least by taking off Sexton early yesterday (who was playing very well), and giving Madigan a good run.

He's only just turned 23, and we need to see how he develops before sending him off. Give him a few more years, possibly getting a few HEC games and constant Rabo play where he can earn an Irish bench spot, and then we will talk. There is no need to offload him anywhere soon.

GerM · 01-04-2012 11:06AM

Madigan is at the best place possible for him and will be there for another couple of years. He's getting far more game time now than he would if he was in Munster. Not only would his game time suffer there but they wouldn't suit him in the slightest. It would be madness to consider such a move. I think he'll stay where he is. A foreign contract might tempt him in 2 years as might Munster in 2 years but right now, he is rightly staying where he is.

Keatley is far from a lost cause; he has talent but Munster need to actually develop him. He was playing decently in the early stages of the season. Munster need to back him and give him some games. His form has gone to the dogs since ROG returned and the game time has disappeared completely.

thebaz · 01-04-2012 11:12AM

I can see Ireland and leinster using both , probably Sexton as centre - the BOD and D'arcy combination is fast heading into its twilight stage (sadly)

O'Malley/McFadden
Sexton/McFadden
Madigan/Sexton
Reddan

Great options for Ireland and Leinster going forward, regarding our three quaters options

Tox56 · 01-04-2012 11:19AM

thebaz wrote: »

I can see Ireland and leinster using both , probably Sexton as centre - the BOD and D'arcy combination is fast heading into its twilight stage (sadly)

O'Malley/McFadden
Sexton/McFadden
Madigan/Sexton
Reddan

Great options for Ireland and Leinster going forward, regarding our three quaters options

For Leinster alone, the competition for places is fierce, and that can only be a good thing:

9: Reddan, Boss
10: Sexton, Madigan, Berquist
11: Fitzgerald, Carr, Conway
12: D'Arcy, McFadden
13: BOD, O'Malley
14: Nacewa, D Kearney
15: Kearney, Nacewa

Having 2 top quality/promising options in each position in what a team like Leinster should be aiming for. Removing one player (like Madigan) makes the whole squad weaker.

We keep hearing of no such thing as a 15 man game anymore, and as a result, one player per position is not enough.

Risteard · 01-04-2012 11:31AM

Bench him for Ireland.

CatFromHue · 01-04-2012 11:33AM

Berquist is leaving at the end of this season so that puts Madigan firmly as Sexton's back up.

I'm assuming he won't go on the tour to NZ. Depending on how the season ends he may not be involved in the BaaBaa game either as it's on Tuesday 29th May and the Pro12 final is on 26/27 th May.

I think it's actually going to be better for him to not tour with Ireland as he won't be able to play the first few games of next season if he does. Assuming this, if fit he'll start 3 or 4 games at the start of next season, 3 or 4 games around the November internationals, 1 game over Christmass, and 3 or 4 games during the 6 Nations. Then you'd have Schmidt rotating him for other games too. Not sure if anyone else is lined up to come in play both 10 and 12 but as it stands Madigan is probably looking at playing 18 or so games for Leinster next season.

The Aussie · 01-04-2012 11:38AM

Tox56 wrote: »

the competition for places is fierce, and that can only be a good thing:

I totally agree it's a good thing, as long as it does not become a toxic situation of players being picked on reputation and past performances of years gone by and good promising young talent goes stagnant or recedes. But that is upto the Coaching staff to have the courage and conviction to make the hard call.

Err, sorry im talking about the wrong province, leave him where he is for the time being, the set up there seems to suit for the time being

jacothelad · 01-04-2012 11:39AM

Maybe it will give ROG a geegee up.:D:D:D:D

Actually Madigan would go well at Ravenhill.

;);)

Higher · 01-04-2012 11:40AM

To be honest this is really pissing me off.

Leinster have Ross, Cronin and Reddan, who are Munster rejects. Fair enough.

Munster have Murphy, Ronan and Keatley, who are Leinster rejects. Fair enough

But I draw the line after Munster 'stole' Felix Jones.

Theres no way they're taking Ian Madigan from Leinster as well ffs. Develop your own players. Look at Zebo and Murray they're doing well.

The fact is Leinster would be insane to give Munster two of what would become (or in the case of Jones, has become) their best backline players.

Madigan is staying put. Why not develop Deasy or Cusack?

Tox56 · 01-04-2012 11:47AM

Higher wrote: »

To be honest this is really pissing me off.

Leinster have Ross, Cronin and Reddan, who are Munster rejects. Fair enough.

Munster have Murphy, Ronan and Keatley, who are Leinster rejects. Fair enough

But I draw the line after Munster 'stole' Felix Jones.

Theres no way they're taking Ian Madigan from Leinster as well ffs. Develop your own players. Look at Zebo and Murray they're doing well.

The fact is Leinster would be insane to give Munster two of what would become (or in the case of Jones, has become) their best backline players.

Madigan is staying put. Why not develop Deasy or Cusack?

Don't start it, please don't start it.

Higher · 01-04-2012 11:49AM

I'm not starting anything.

Why should Leinster be forced to give Madigan to Munster. Hes getting more gametime than Sexton ffs.

jacothelad · 01-04-2012 11:54AM

Higher wrote: »

I'm not starting anything.

Why should Leinster be forced to give Madigan to Munster. Hes getting more gametime than Sexton ffs.

With all due respect H, how could he be forced to go anywhere? I doubt if he has even thought of it but if any player moves it is because he wants to for career/financial reasons. (That's why it makes eminent sense for him to come to Belfast

:D:D) Rugby Players are not yet chattels to be traded like footballers.

danthefan · 01-04-2012 11:55AM

Higher wrote: »

I'm not starting anything.

Why should Leinster be forced to give Madigan to Munster. Hes getting more gametime than Sexton ffs.

Where is this idea of them getting forced to do anything coming from? Jones obviously made the decision himself to go to Munster.

Higher · 01-04-2012 11:57AM

danthefan wrote: »

Where is this idea of them getting forced to do anything coming from? Jones obviously made the decision himself to go to Munster.

Of course he ultimately made the decision but this was a lad who was Leinster through and through. As Cheika himself said, Munster came in with a contract offer that Leinster werent able to offer on what was at the time potential. I would be pissed if Munster did similar with Madigan and offered him some massive contract. Worse yet, the IRFU offer him a central on the condition he moves to Munster.

Podge_irl · 01-04-2012 12:00PM

Higher wrote: »

Worse yet, the IRFU offer him a central on the condition he moves to Munster.

That is never going to happen.

danthefan · 01-04-2012 12:03PM

Higher wrote: »

Of course he ultimately made the decision but this was a lad who was Leinster through and through. As Cheika himself said, Munster came in with a contract offer that Leinster werent able to offer on what was at the time potential. I would be pissed if Munster did similar with Madigan and offered him some massive contract. Worse yet, the IRFU offer him a central on the condition he moves to Munster.

Doesn't sound right, the provinces aren't allowed outbid each other.

davegrohl48 · 01-04-2012 12:05PM

He'll get plenty game time with Leinster over next two years. So I think it makes perfect sense for him to stay. Also he is familiar for a long time with alot o the younger players in Leinster. At the end of the two years he may well be Irish no. 10 or backup.

CatFromHue · 01-04-2012 12:08PM

danthefan wrote: »

Where is this idea of them getting forced to do anything coming from? Jones obviously made the decision himself to go to Munster.

Madigan shows some promise last season and suddenly a Dundon pops up in the Leinster squad. It's an inside job, intimidation at it's lowest I tell ya!

jm08 · 01-04-2012 12:27PM

I hope in his own mind, Madigan thinks that he can be first choice outhalf at Leinster within the next year or so. He will be much the better player if he can do that.

d-gal · 01-04-2012 12:39PM

Madigan looks better than Sexton which is fantastic for Ireland. I'd love a 10/12/13 of Madigan, Sexton & Earls for Ireland. With the likes of Zebo, TOH, DK, Bowe or Fitz outside them it would be electrifying.

We have to offload Darcy and get rid of Mcfadden who is never going to be a top Irish 12.

Madigan should stay put coz he is in the best place to develop. It might be a different story if Munster get a proper backs coach or connacht surge to super stardom.

It's a great player for Ireland to have

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2012 12:43PM

Jones left Leinster because he saw Rob Kearney excelling for Ireland in the 2009 6 Nations and Isa Nacewa looking good after that when Kearney was out with his illness during the run in for the 2009 H Cup. He realised he was firmly 3rd choice behind 2 young guys (at the time they were 22 and 27) and he realised that he would not get a chance.

Exact same reason that Niall Morris went to the Tigers. Both players were at the exact same standard in the exact same position and will probably both go on to start for the team they went to for years.

They both made the right decision, and given that Leinster have Nacewa and Kearney it hasn't hurt them at all.

Madigan's position does not compare to either of those guys. He has played in a Heineken Cup final. He has started at Heineken Cup level. He is being developed perfectly, being shielded from tough opposition by being 2nd choice and being shielded from confindence issues by Fergus McFadden/Isa Nacewa's kicking. Unlike Felix Jones he is getting the perfect amount of game time for a guy at his stage of development and he is thriving at times because of that.

He has a long way to go before he can start for a competitive Heineken Cup team. He cannot play a territory game particularly well and he's shown that. He would probably be the least suited player to ever step on the field for Declan Kidney if he travels anywhere with him. He is perfect for the 22 jersey in Leinster though and I wouldn't be surprised if he is used consistently from now on as he was last night.

molloyjh · 01-04-2012 12:44PM

All this from a ridiculous comment on RTE!? Madigan is at a club that has fostered his talent and given him everything he has needed to reach the level he is at. He's still a way off challenging Johnny for the first choice 10 shirt. Some of his kickIng from hand can be a bit poor for example. He's developing nicely and getting loads of game time in a side that suits his play down to the ground. He'd be crazy to leave.

Maybe in a season or two when he's pushing Johnny for his place we can talk about a possible move. But now is not the time. It really is incredible that when a player excels at one province pundits start talking about taking him away from that province.

Either way he's signed a 2 year contract with Leinster so he's not leaving any time soon. So this is all irrelevant.

Neil3030 · 01-04-2012 12:52PM

Lads, lads, lads, simply solution:

Sexton moves to Munster.

tolosenc · 01-04-2012 12:54PM

Is this thread just because he came on for 20 minutes and was clearly better than ROG? Ridiculous. He needs to stay put and get some stability and decent coaching. End of.

jm08 · 01-04-2012 01:02PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Is this thread just because he came on for 20 minutes and was clearly better than ROG? Ridiculous. He needs to stay put and get some stability and decent coaching. End of.

Munster's coaching is changing next season. What if wayne smith is the new coach

tolosenc · 01-04-2012 01:10PM

jm08 wrote: »

Munster's coaching is changing next season. What if wayne smith is the new coach

Not going to be better than Joe Schmidt. There is very little, if anything at all, he could do better in terms of squad management and fostering new talent.

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:13PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Is this thread just because he came on for 20 minutes and was clearly better than ROG? Ridiculous. He needs to stay put and get some stability and decent coaching. End of.

No it's because he's been consistently brilliant all year and IMO clearly good enough to be a starting HC 10, which he won't be for the foreseeable future if he stays at Leinster

Talk of development is all well and good but there's top quality coaches in every province, plus he's 23, I hope for his own sake he doesn't see himself as back up for Sexton until his new contract runs out

shuffol · 01-04-2012 01:16PM

Is all this hype stemming from Madigans cameo last night where he had a very assured 20 minutes but was given an armchair ride by his pack, I've as high a hopes for him as the next person but he still has a long way to go before he can be relied on in tricky HC games where the margins are very tight.

His first pass when he came on yesterday was to BODs bootlaces that he somehow managed to pick up, had that gone to ground who knows what it might have done to his confidence and how he would've reacted

irishbucsfan · 01-04-2012 01:17PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

No it's because he's been consistently brilliant all year and IMO clearly good enough to be a starting HC 10, which he won't be for the foreseeable future if he stays at Leinster

Talk of development is all well and good but there's top quality coaches in every province, plus he's 23, I hope for his own sake he doesn't see himself as back up for Sexton until his new contract runs out

Firstly that's a silly sentence. Leinster are not talking about developing Madigan, they're doing it. He has come on in leaps and bounds because of this approach and he's not done yet.

Secondly, there are not excellent coaches in every province. Holland has not done nearly as well with Keatley or indeed any of the other half backs as Schmidt has with Madigan and it remains to be seen what effect Doak will have on Jackson if he keeps his job.

Also, what will Leinster do without Madigan? Play Reid at 10? Madigan has played twice as much rugby as Jonny Sexton this season. He is needed in Leinster.

danthefan · 01-04-2012 01:20PM

shuffol wrote: »

Is all this hype stemming from Madigans cameo last night where he had a very assured 20 minutes but was given an armchair ride by his pack, I've as high a hopes for him as the next person but he still has a long way to go before he can be relied on in tricky HC games where the margins are very tight.

His first pass when he came on yesterday was to BODs bootlaces that he somehow managed to pick up, had that gone to ground who knows what it might have done to his confidence and how he would've reacted

Vague statements like this really annoy me. Long way to go where? How do you know he wouldn't be able to manage in a tight HEC game? He started one and has been used in a few others this season and has acquitted himself well.

As for your second point, deciding his pass might have gone to ground and it might have shattered his confidence isn't a point at all. It didn't happen.

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:23PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Firstly that's a silly sentence. Leinster are not talking about developing Madigan, they're doing it. He has come on in leaps and bounds because of this approach and he's not done yet.

Secondly, there are not excellent coaches in every province. Holland has not done nearly as well with Keatley or indeed any of the other half backs as Schmidt has with Madigan and it remains to be seen what effect Doak will have on Jackson if he keeps his job.

Also, what will Leinster do without Madigan? Play Reid at 10? Madigan has played twice as much rugby as Jonny Sexton this season. He is needed in Leinster.

Kind of my point. Leinster have done a fantastic job but my point is that I'm worried that without regular starting HC rugby until he reaches 25/26 it will have a detrimental effect on his game in the long run

yimrsg · 01-04-2012 01:27PM

Play him at 12 for Leinster along side Sexton. His passing, step and acceleration could make him lethal in that position. He could be Leinster's (and Ireland's) Giteau.

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:30PM

yimrsg wrote: »

Play him at 12 for Leinster along side Sexton. His passing, step and acceleration could make him lethal in that position. He could be Leinster's (and Ireland's) Giteau.

I'd like to see this happen

Not too hard to see it happening either considering if he keeps up this form he'll simply be too good not to start

Hagz · 01-04-2012 01:32PM

I think the most important thing has nothing to do with club rugby, it's that he needs to travel to New Zealand and wear the 21 jersey.

Fireball07 · 01-04-2012 01:32PM

Higher wrote: »

To be honest this is really pissing me off.

Leinster have Ross, Cronin and Reddan, who are Munster rejects. Fair enough.

Munster have Murphy, Ronan and Keatley, who are Leinster rejects. Fair enough

But I draw the line after Munster 'stole' Felix Jones.

Theres no way they're taking Ian Madigan from Leinster as well ffs. Develop your own players. Look at Zebo and Murray they're doing well.

The fact is Leinster would be insane to give Munster two of what would become (or in the case of Jones, has become) their best backline players.

Madigan is staying put. Why not develop Deasy or Cusack?

The point has to be made that Madigan can't be forced to move, it would be completely his own decision. I don't think he should move at this stage (though I'd love to see him come to Munster) but there may come a time when he'll have to move... unless he wins the 10 shirt from Sexton (for the big pro12 games + HC games).

As for developing Deasy or Cusack, you can't develop a player that doesn't have the talent to become better than someone who does. Realistically, they have shown nothing to suggest they will ever be at Madigan's level. Keatley, for all his faults, has much more talent than either of them imo.

As for 'stealing players' and 'rejects' and stuff, I disagree with that tbh. There are way more players being produced nowadays, Leinster in particular has a massive underage playing base... and they can't all start. Some talented players will have to move to further their careers. Jones, for example, would still be behind Kearney, who is in the form of his life. He's starting for Munster now and is now (in theory) Ireland's 2nd choice 15. It has benefited him.

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:35PM

Hagz wrote: »

I think the most important thing has nothing to do with club rugby, it's that he needs to travel to New Zealand and wear the 21 jersey.

Would love to see it but don't even think he'll be on the plane

danthefan · 01-04-2012 01:36PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Would love to see it but don't even think he'll be on the plane

No chance. He was behind Keatley during the 'A' games recently. He's never played under Kidney before, therefore hasn't a hope.

Madworld · 01-04-2012 01:37PM

Its scary to think the depth Leinster would have at fly half had it not been for McKinley's injury.

danthefan · 01-04-2012 01:38PM

Just checked his stats, he has 14 starts this season. Would he have that many elsewhere?

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:40PM

danthefan wrote: »

Just checked his stats, he has 14 starts this season. Would he have that many elsewhere?

Only one HC start though (due to a Sexton injury), and lets face it, that's the level he should be starting at consistently but because of Sexton he won't be for at least another year or 2

danthefan · 01-04-2012 01:43PM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Only one HC start though (due to a Sexton injury), and lets face it, that's the level he should be starting at consistently but because of Sexton he won't be for at least another year or 2

Again, you can complain about that all you like but he wouldn't get any more at Munster, Connacht are out of the HEC most likely and Ulster have Jackson coming through. You have responded to a different question than the one I asked, would have have those starts at Munster for example?

jm08 · 01-04-2012 01:48PM

danthefan wrote: »

No chance. He was behind Keatley during the 'A' games recently. He's never played under Kidney before, therefore hasn't a hope.

He is listed for the wolfhounds and played in the game against england in january.

Les kiss said on his podcast that ireland brought in about 50 players during the 6Ns to have a look at them with a view to bringing a squad of about 30 to new zealand.

Fishooks12 · 01-04-2012 01:50PM

danthefan wrote: »

Again, you can complain about that all you like but he wouldn't get any more at Munster, Connacht are out of the HEC most likely and Ulster have Jackson coming through. You have responded to a different question than the one I asked, would have have those starts at Munster for example?

He'd probably get in and around the same at Munster tbh, Keatley would have had he not lost any bit of form he had after September

Plus ROG is on the verge of 37, I'd hope that if we had signed Madigan he'd start ahead of him next season, Jackson is talented but no where near ready for HC with Ulster

My point is that in the long run Madigan would be getting more gametime in the HC with any other province than Leinster due to Sexton

Quint2010 · 01-04-2012 01:52PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Lads, lads, lads, simply solution:

Sexton moves to Munster.

So to sit on the bench behind ROG..:)

jm08 · 01-04-2012 01:52PM

danthefan wrote: »

Just checked his stats, he has 14 starts this season. Would he have that many elsewhere?

yea, at any team with their first choice outhalf at the world cup and if one of their 2nd and 3rd choice outhalf had a season ending injury.

Gordon Gecko · 01-04-2012 02:04PM

Queensland Reds are a little light on fly halves these days.........

PhatPiggins · 01-04-2012 02:13PM

danthefan wrote: »

Firs things first - stop talking about him like he's a good that can be traded.

People realise he has a say in where he plays, right?

Great news. Be coached by Joe Schmidt or Dutchy Holland. Hmmmmmmm.

Is Schmidt signing a contract extension too ?

What to do with Madigan?

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