Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

They're bluffing and if not who cares. Everyone will lose out but in the long term the smaller nations will really lose out if they don't stand up to bullies.

I'm happy that this should hopefully lead to the Celtic League committee looking into fixing the unfair advantage our teams have.

People saying they're sore losers annoys me quite a lot. I suppose it's an Irish site so what can you do. This has been a long time coming, it's certainly not reactive. It reminds me of Kiwi fans laughing off people's criticism of the ref in the RWC final. It's a genuine issue and deserves to be looked at.

I think that's just it, English teams have simply had a poor season, only in 2011 they were 40 mins away from winning the thing, Quins were a wet night in Galway away from the QF and who knows what could have happened.

JustinDee wrote: »

They are sore losers and selfishly so, as this concern of theirs has absolutely NOTHING to do with the good of the game.

There's a poster on these forums who would be quick to point out that is YOUR opinion! :P

There is good to be gained for all parties from the proposals, and rather than just blindly stonewalling them we should be open to consider a compromise that will keep everyone happy and competitive.

JustinDee wrote: »

They either ignore or forget completely the whole purpose of the comp.

The purpose of the competition is to grow the profile of the sport. In every country in Europe. Equally as important in England as it is in Ireland, France Italy or Luxembourg.

Why should Premiership Rugby Ltd. or LNR continue to allow their brand be devalued by losses to teams like Connacht and Treviso who are targeting their teams thanks to their ability to completely disregard the competition that makes up the majority of their season?

JustinDee wrote: »

All very ironic when you look at the efforts through the smokescreen of facilities requirements etc, being made to keep Newcastle in the top flight at the expense of London Welsh and/or Cornish Pirates.

I think what's most ironic is that if someone came in spouting conspiracy theories about the IRFU, you'd be the first to laugh them off! :pac:

Is it really bizarre that a team who have completely changed their management structure in the past couple of months, completely reversed (repeatedly) their plans for a home ground and been completely inconsistent in their financial reportings failed the audit? I don't think so. However I must say I hope they do find some way to include LW as they are clearly making every effort and their playing squad are clearly good enough. Although I am a bit worried about them using the Kassam as it's so far away from their base, it's a shame they weren't allowed use the brentford stadium.

The ERC will not change. It doesn't need to.

I'd be very tempted to quote Sam Cooke at this!

.ak wrote: »

The rough idea (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really read into any of these reformating articles) is they're bemoaning the fact that a lot of the 'Celtic League' (Pro12) teams (Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy) qualify regardless of where they stand in the league and also don't have to worry about relegation from their league where as the English and the French do.

The issue I have with that is there are only about 4 teams in the Pro12 League that would need to battle it out to find a spot. Then the competition changes face completely - as it stands the comp is designed to have a fairly equal representative of each country, not as some people imagine it; the best of each country.

If we did it the way they want it would effect Scottish Rugby and Italian Rugby - it wouldn't effect Ireland, Wales, England or France. I don't see how that'll benefit anyone.

So basically, England and France want more teams in the comp instead of Italian and Scottish teams?

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

So basically, England and France want more teams in the comp instead of Italian and Scottish teams?

true, but to look at it in more depth, when english teams were winning the HC they were saying it was due to the highly competitive domestic league they were playing in which ensured top quality games weekly.

fast forward a few years and the diluge of foreign players in english teams over the years has ensured fewer english players are coming through, salary caps have been introduced which has seen some english players head to france and the quality of play over there seems to have gotten worse.

what i'd like to see for the Rabo to become more competitive would be Wales and Ireland to be guaranteed 2 HC spots each, Scotland and Italy 1, so that's 6 spots filled with the remaining spots being based purely on how high teams finish up the table.

thomond2006 wrote: »

How about this, with 24 teams qualifying....

Top 7 from England qualify
Top 7 from France qualify
Top 8 from Rabo qualify (Rabo gets one more place because it represents more countries)

That makes 22 qualifications from league position and it's not too disimilar to the current system, the only drastic change is in the Rabo. It would benefit teams like Connacht in the Rabo who at the moment could finish 4th in the league and still not qualify if all the other Irish provinces are ahead of them. Extreme idea I know, but quite possible.

For the remaining 2, HEC winner and runner up qualifies for the next season. If they qualify themselves through the league anyway, then they earn another place for their respective league, the highest placed team not qualifying normally therefore qualify.

Tbh I don't like how Premiership Rugby has conducted themselves over this, they appear like whining bitches, but it is silly that the likes of Glasgow and Edinburgh qualify, however at the same time the point of the HEC has always been to have a good spread of countries.

Honestly making a Top 7/8/9 from the Rabo qualifying would make the Rabo far more interesting and competitive. The French and English leagues have relegation battles to keep the bottom sides interested, giving a Heineken Cup spot to fight for would make the Rabo much more interesting for the likes of Aironi Zebre and Dragons.

even though i totally with the above as i've seen it as a flaw of the rabo ,its not gonna happen is it ?Its all well and good suggesting it as the irish teams are doing well ,but that means all nations give up there automatic slots to HEC, why would Italy ,scotland and lesser extent wales agree to it ? as the scenario could arise that none of your countries teams qualify and that would have a knock on affect to national sides

for the record i would love the see the rabo places decided on position rather than national quota

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

So basically, England and France want more teams in the comp instead of Italian and Scottish teams?

The problem is that Rabo teams are able to basically concentrate on only the Heineken Cup every year until they're either eliminated from the Heineken or until after the final (like Leinster!). The Rabo (Celtic League) is so weak that they basically rest their teams and focus on Heineken Cup games from weeks ahead. There are plenty of examples of that from this season alone.

The one that sticks out in my mind is when Biarritz lost to Treviso. Treviso changed something like 14 of their first team the week before, because they were playing Connacht (they still won, to give an indicator of the extremity of this, Connacht probably did the exact same thing although I can't recall exactly). Biarritz played Montpellier the week before and had to fight to the death for just a LBP. Naturally this gives the Rabo teams an advantage.

You end up with Edinburgh in the Semi Final of the Heineken Cup, while finish 11th (out of 12) in the Rabo.

The argument is that if Rabo teams had to qualify on merit they would have to pay more respect to their domestic competition and therefore have less of an unfair advantage over English and French teams. It would be their performance in that competition which gives them the benefit of European rugby and the financial benefits which come with it.

Both England and French officials are asking for a few changes. Every time I see them they're different so its hard to know exactly who wants what.



The argument against is that Scotland and Italy will lose out, because they're not good enough to qualify themselves.