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Which hurt most: 22-19 or 60-0?

  • 28-06-2012 01:05PM
    #1
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭


    Listening to Gerry Thornley on Newstalk last night and he seemed to be making the point that the 60-0 thumping was a terrible event whereas the narrow defeat the previous week was a wonderful achievement.

    I beg to disagree. I thought the second test result was hardest to swallow because that game was there for the taking in the last eight minutes and we blew it.

    You could get numbed to the 60-0 match long before the end but at how many times do you look back on it and think "if only.."?

    Not many, I reckon. But in the other game there were numerous times when luck and bad decision making went against us.

    Much has been written about Nigel Owens' refereeing decisions, especially with regard to that scrum where he gave a penalty against Ireland for illegal wheeling. He even suffered the embarrassment of having a former member of Wales' famed "Pontypool Front Row" of the 1970s write into the Irish Times last week explaining how he got the decision totally wrong.

    But as any acerbic journalist who covers rugby knows, you can ALWAYS blame the referee for a tight defeat. There are usually two or three things going wrong at most scrums, lineouts, breakdowns. How the ref prioritises one infringement over another is up to him.

    Nigel says the Irish back five were "running around". He's probably not wrong. Charlie Faulkner and Liam Toland said the NZ prop dropped his bind and the flanker disengaged and re-engaged without retreating beyond the back foot. They're not wrong either but Nigel held the whistle.

    But the decision making cost us, I am convinced. Playing against a beaten pack and a team missing a man for the last eight minutes should have resulted in a win. Granted, NZ were lucky with the scrum decision and with the fortuitous 5m scrum at the end from which they scored.

    But that is the match that haunts me. Not the 60-0 romp.


Comments

  • #2
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I kinda agree. But looking back at it now, I think the 22-19 defeat was a gift horse. We played well, but only because we played so physically, there was little to no game plan implemented, we were just hugely physical and the ABs couldn't live with it for some reason. I'd hate to have to hear from all the Kidney fanboys for the next year as the reason he should stay, the only coach to lead us to victory over the ABs... :/

    The 60-0 defeat is just an indication on where Irish rugby actually lies - underachieving.


  • #3
    Sabre0001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    22-19. Close, but no cigar. Irish team stopped NZ from playing their natural game brilliantly.

    The 60-0...sometimes you just have to sit back and admire what NZ can do.

    🤪



  • #4
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    It's certainly a pattern we've seen before under Kidney to some extent.

    Poor start followed by a faux strong performance based on physical play, followed by being found out and well beaten.

    USA, Australia, Wales. World Cup 2011
    Wales, France, England. 6 Nations 2012
    France, England/Wales, Scotland. 6 Nations 2010

    It's tiring.


  • #5
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To a degree I don't much care whether we lose 32-10 or 60-0. They're both hammerings. Obviously the nil hurts and the margin is absurdly embarrassing but neither are good games. I'm slightly sick of watching Ireland come close only to founder in the last 5. I don't think at the any in the close games NZ really thought they were going to lose and I get the impression the Irish players never really thought they would win either which is depressing.


  • #6
    JonnyF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭JonnyF


    the players themselves said that 22 19 was meaningless if they couldn't back it up with another big game, instead they got the doors blown off them.

    So 60-0 hurt worse for me because it took away any merit from the 22 19 result


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  • #7
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,525 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    The fact that Kidney still hasn't quit or been fired is what hurts most.


  • #8
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    60-0 definitely for me. There were no positives what so ever to be taken from that game and it was a true annihilation from the first min.

    I've played games where we only had 14 or sometimes only 13 guys, other games where half the team was hungover to bits, other games where players got sick on the pitch, but I was never beaten that bad!

    We can harp on about Kidney et al all day but it's a big black mark against all those players too. Trimble and Cronin excepted as they only came on at the end.

    Also there is the humiliation part of losing.....even Davina McCall got in on it!
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79437654&postcount=5021


  • #9
    Jame Gumb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Jame Gumb


    No contest for me - The 60-0

    It was an absolute and utter humiliation...the worst I've ever seen


  • #10
    Ildere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    The second test result was lucky, the other 2 tests demonstrated where we are in relation to them.
    The eight ranked team got hammered by the 1st ranked team.
    What did we really expect.

    We will sneak a few wins against teams ranked above us in one off games but in a series NZ, SA, AUS, Wales, England, France would give us a few good beatings. And it would be a brave man who would bet a lot of money on us beating Argentina twice out of 3 times.

    Heineken Cups with foreign players in key positions has lulled us into notions of grandeur.


  • #11
    Fight_Night
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Fight_Night


    Ildere wrote: »
    The second test result was lucky, the other 2 tests demonstrated where we are in relation to them.
    The eight ranked team got hammered by the 1st ranked team.
    What did we really expect.

    We will sneak a few wins against teams ranked above us in one off games but in a series NZ, SA, AUS, Wales, England, France would give us a few good beatings. And it would be a brave man who would bet a lot of money on us beating Argentina twice out of 3 times.

    Heineken Cups with foreign players in key positions has lulled us into notions of grandeur.

    SA and NZ would come out winners in a series definitely but Oz, England and the rest I wouldn't be so sure of. Although this is assuming we had a different coach.


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  • #12
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Ildere wrote: »
    The second test result was lucky, the other 2 tests demonstrated where we are in relation to them.
    The eight ranked team got hammered by the 1st ranked team.
    What did we really expect.

    We will sneak a few wins against teams ranked above us in one off games but in a series NZ, SA, AUS, Wales, England, France would give us a few good beatings. And it would be a brave man who would bet a lot of money on us beating Argentina twice out of 3 times.

    Heineken Cups with foreign players in key positions has lulled us into notions of grandeur.

    Yes, all 2 foreign players who were starting for Leinster when they made that comeback against Northampton.


  • #13
    Ildere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Yes, all 2 foreign players who were starting for Leinster when they made that comeback against Northampton.

    You can go on deluding yourself if you like. I said key positions and I could also have said Key players. Nacewa was and is Leinsters best player and who was the other.


  • #14
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Ildere wrote: »
    You can go on deluding yourself if you like. I said key positions and I could also have said Key players. Nacewa was and is Leinsters best player and who was the other.

    In the Heineken Cup starting team, you could make the case that Nacewa was Leinster's best player last year (although the ERC award was given to SOB over Nacewa), but this year he was certainly not Leinster's best player.

    The "key position" Nacewa was in last year was fullback, an area where Ireland have.. European player of the year Rob Kearney. His direct replacement in the Irish team (at 14) is Bowe.


  • #15
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,478 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Ildere wrote: »
    You can go on deluding yourself if you like. I said key positions and I could also have said Key players. Nacewa was and is Leinsters best player and who was the other.

    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Nacewa playing FB has no effect on ireland, whats hurts us the most is Botha and Du Preez at munster and Afoa at ulster.


  • #16
    Ildere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    twinytwo wrote: »
    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Nacewa playing FB has no effect on ireland, whats hurts us the most is Botha and Du Preez at munster and Afoa at ulster.

    My point was that WE as supporters have a high expectation of our national team based in some part on winning Heineken cups with non-irish players in key positions.

    We are not as good as we think we are and ranked 8th expecting to beat 1st ranked and World Cup winners is pie in the sky.

    What causes us to be so optimistic.


  • #17
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No one was expecting us to beat them (which is part of the reason I find the 19-22 loss more galling, as it was totally possible).

    They expect us not to lose by 60 flipping points.

    We lost by less and managed to score 4 tries playing with 14 men last time we were down there.


  • #18
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    60-0 was miles worse. Possibly the most painful match I have ever watched. The odd moment here and there, I suddenly remember we lost so badly and I just go "****"


  • #19
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,478 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    the moral of this story is kidney needed to grow some stones (no pun intended)


  • #20
    desertcircus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Losing to the world champions in their house by a last-gasp drop goal hurts, but there's no shame in it. You might argue about whether there's honour in it, but it's certainly a neutral result at worst.

    Losing by sixty points and getting bagelled against ANYONE is a disgrace. It's an embarrassment for all concerned and a stain on the record books. How long has it been since we were held to zero? How long has it been since we conceded sixty?

    One was a hell of an effort that just fell short. The other was eighty minutes of total failure. One suggests a team that's almost there: the other suggests a team bereft of ideas.


  • #21
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They hurt for two very different reasons though.

    There is no shame in losing by a last minute drop goal to NZ but to get that close and think they might finally do it only to have that shattered is pretty ****ing painful to take.


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