Getting 'evidence' would break the system.

liveya · 02-07-2012 11:16PM #1

(Note: This is not about debating his existence, it's about the hypothetical situation where somehow (even though its impossible in the way they demand it) evidence is found and the consequences there after..)

And seeking evidence outside God (evidence itself) is pointless, and impossible.

I don't know what sort of evidence atheists are looking for, has anyone ever asked them? Has anyone ever asked an athiest what would be an example of evidence that would suffice? Has anyone ever thought about the consequences of finding evidence without the will to actually know him and love him?

It seems to me that finding 'evidence' without having seeked him willingly would break the system, a meltdown, life would be impossible. Could you imagine if you absolutely knew God existed, but you refused him? It would be like someone standing their watching you all day everyday, intruding on your life, it would be awful. Even for beleivers it would be intrusive and uncomfortable, so it is logical that we cannot know 100%, unless we totally willingly open ourselves to him, as the saints did, and do.

The system is perfect the way it is, God is present for those who seek him, but not intruding on our lives, he's at the 'perfect distance', so to speak. Knowing hell exists for example would create chaos and despair, people would flock to churches at least every Sunday, or even everyday, not out of freely choosing to love him, but out of fear, thus the failure of any real love.

On a final note, I know there are some athiests who convert and take that leap of faith, but there are some who just refuse to bow, and even think seriously about faith, and how could they do that, knowing he exists, so denial is the only option for those who refuse him. The will to be ones own God would be exposed if they didn't deny him. Nobody could refuse to bow and love God and simultaneously admit his existence, they would be exposed as arrogant God wannabe's.

Asking for evidence without deeply wanting to know God and submit to him (who is worthy of worhsip) is pointless. It would only serve to trap the person in a world of fear and forceful fake love, making life dreadful, ironically, a living hell.

What do you think?

dvae · 03-07-2012 12:15AM

for many atheists, i don't think theres much you could do to promote the existence of God.
after all Jesus himself came to the earth to atone for the sins of man, and to preach the word of God. after preforming many miracles there were still many who failed to believe.

liveya · 03-07-2012 12:22AM

dvae wrote: »

for many atheists, i don't think theres much you could do to promote the existence of God.
after all Jesus himself came to the earth to atone for the sins of man, and to preach the word of God. after preforming many miracles there were still many who failed to believe.

Trust me, I have no interest in conversion with those who in their heart of hearts, refuse to bow. It's easy enough to see who is seeking God, and who refuses out of wanting to be their own God.

My point, was to show that getting the evidence they ask for would be a disaster. Especially for those who refuse him. They ask for it, but really they don't want it. It wouldn't work.

The inability to prove or disprove him, only serves to reveal his splendor and perfection in all things. He respects our freedom and loves each one of us so much, even those who refuse him, he's made it impossible for anyone to impose him on others. A good God!

Sarky · 03-07-2012 12:47AM

Well if anyone could perform a miracle on live tv with plenty of qualified experts to ensure it wasn't faked, that'd be a start. Or God could show up in person like he did in the old days and sort out once and for all which of the however-many-there-are-now Christian denominations has it right. The stars rearranging themselves into a message in the night sky. He could just drop the requisite knowledge into everyone's brain at the same time, too. Anything verifiable. Anything at all beyond a feeling someone has. Anything that is consistently different from sheer random chance.

It's hardly asking much of an entity that allegedly managed to create a universe, is it?

liveya · 03-07-2012 12:53AM

Sarky wrote: »

Well if anyone could perform a miracle on live tv with plenty of qualified experts to ensure it wasn't faked, that'd be a start. Or God could show up in person like he did in the old days and sort out once and for all which of the however-many-there-are-now Christian denominations has it right. The stars rearranging themselves into a message in the night sky. He could just drop the requisite knowledge into everyone's brain at the same time, too. Anything verifiable. Anything at all beyond a feeling someone has. Anything that is consistently different from sheer random chance.

It's hardly asking much of an entity that allegedly managed to create a universe, is it?

None of the things you asked for would be proof, since to experience them as a person, you'd have to agree they are still scientific and not proof of God at all, just that something happened that you cannot explain it. It's still science, still not meta.

Secondly, I explained that Gods respect for our freedom, allows for doubt. Seek and you'll find, implying if you don't seek you won't find. A loving God wouldn't impose on anyone, so it makes sense that having given us enough light, it's up to us to accept and respond to this proposition, it has to be made in faith to prove one cares enough to take that leap.

A Perfect system, designed for freely chosen love.

Sarky · 03-07-2012 01:08AM

How would a verifiable miracle or the stars realigning themselves to spell out a message from god not be evidence to suggest god exists? Right now we have god curing cancer at a rate that's actually below the normal spontaneous remission rate, or both sides of a team praying to god for victory but in the end, one of them still loses. And that book that's true because of the bits in the book that say it's true. There is nothing compelling.

And who'd be imposing? He'd settle the question once and for all, we'd still have the choice whether we want to bother with all that bowing and scraping business or not. If he's providing no evidence whatsoever of his existence, well, it's his own damn fault so much of the world doesn't believe in him.

liveya · 03-07-2012 01:18AM

Sarky wrote: »

How would a verifiable miracle or the stars realigning themselves to spell out a message from god not be evidence to suggest god exists? Right now we have god curing cancer at a rate that's actually below the normal spontaneous remission rate, or both sides of a team praying to god for victory but in the end, one of them still loses. And that book that's true because of the bits in the book that say it's true. There is nothing compelling.

And who'd be imposing? He'd settle the question once and for all, we'd still have the choice whether we want to bother with all that bowing and scraping business or not. If he's providing no evidence whatsoever of his existence, well, it's his own damn fault so much of the world doesn't believe in him.

You don't seem to understand my point. One could not live their life in peace, if they refused to bow and knew he existed; In knowing he exists they'd know there is an absolute truth, and would be exposed to not admitting the truth and would be seen to be clearly ignoring it, who would be irrational then?

I'm marvelling at the perfect way the universe is made, ignoring the fall for the moment, since that's our fault. The only people who enjoy eternal life are those who admitted the truth, those who took that leap of faith, because they wanted to know, love and enjoy God, not those who refused and wanted to be their own Gods.

True love for God cannot be borne out of you having no choice to refuse him, simply because you knew he exists, the imposition against your will would be a tragedy.

Note the importance of the phrase freely choose to love..

totus tuus · 03-07-2012 01:22AM

This photo was allegedly taken by a young girl at Medjugorje in the late 1990s.

Sarky · 03-07-2012 01:26AM

Oh, I missed the bit where you were redefining evidence to mean "Whatever points to the existence of god". Sorry about that. Carry on with... Whatever this thread is actually about then.

Regarding the picture, give me half an hour with Photoshop and I'll show you one just as convincing that has "SATAN" written near the top. It's not terribly compelling evidence. Anyway, this was never a thread about actual evidence I guess, so I think we're done here.

liveya · 03-07-2012 01:27AM

totus tuus wrote: »

This photo was allegedly taken by a young girl at Medjugorje in the late 1990s.

But that's not proof, that's an allignment of the clouds in a way that has the same shape as the word Christ, still room for doubt. It will always be a matter of faith, thank God - to prevent heaven from being filled with people who refused God.

liveya · 03-07-2012 01:33AM

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, I missed the bit where you were redefining evidence to mean "Whatever points to the existence of god". Sorry about that. Carry on with... Whatever this thread is actually about then.

Regarding the picture, give me half an hour with Photoshop and I'll show you one just as convincing that has "SATAN" written near the top. It's not terribly compelling evidence. Anyway, this was never a thread about actual evidence I guess, so I think we're done here.

In all honesty Sarky, isn't it fair that only those who want to know God get to enjoy him for eternity? As opposed to those who didn't want to know him, but had to because they had no choice otherwise? A loving God would not impose himself, it's very simple. It's perfect..

Seek and you'll find..But you have to want to find him, to seek him..

Zillah · 03-07-2012 01:42AM

None of what you are saying really makes sense.

For example, knowing about Hell isn't what turns Hell into horrendous blackmail...creating Hell in the first place is what makes it horrendous blackmail. If God really wanted to respect my freewill he'd give me an option that didn't involve either worshipping him or suffering forever. Punishing someone for something they genuinely did not believe to be the truth is either insane or evil. Couldn't God just allow me to fly around the universe exploring stuff in an immortal spiritual body instead of joining you guys in heaven, or being condemned to Hell? Why would he make Hell at all?

Knowing about an unfair system is not what makes the system unfair - a system being unfair is what makes it unfair. God has no need to force me to choose between him and eternal torture.

EDIT:

Clearly the "Christ" image is an inferior copy. Thor has better hand writing and a higher image resolution.

liveya · 03-07-2012 01:53AM

Zillah wrote: »

None of what you are saying really makes sense.

For example, knowing about Hell isn't what turns Hell into horrendous blackmail...creating Hell in the first place is what makes it horrendous blackmail. If God really wanted to respect my freewill he'd give me an option that didn't involve either worshipping him or suffering forever. Punishing someone for something they genuinely did not believe to be the truth is either insane or evil. Couldn't God just allow me to fly around the universe exploring stuff in an immortal spiritual body instead of joining you guys in heaven, or being condemned to Hell? Why would he make Hell at all?

Knowing about an unfair system is not what makes the system unfair - a system being unfair is what makes it unfair. God has no need to force me to choose between him and eternal torture.

Hell was created (I'm not sure by God, some have said its by Satan himself) not for human beings, but the Devil and his angels. But some peeople refuse God and choose sin, commiting the unforgivable sin - rejecting the holy spirit all one's life, and therefore deserve to be punished. Hells eternal nature is not purposeful, it's a consequence of the sin that must be punished or else God wouldn't be just. An all loving God must punish sin, or else he is unjust. The punishment continues forever because the sin continues forever, locked from the inside.

So you are asking for God to let a person who refuses him, freely: therefore love, goodness, righteousness and justice to live happily ever after for eternity, floating around enjoying Gods work? although to reject him would make you the worst creature ever created, by your choice? Do you really think a person, who has freely rejected such a good God deserves to go unpunished? Terrible..

No, if you refused the gospel, truth, love then you don't deserve to live happily ever after, nobody of who made such selfish choices does. Complaining about Gods perfect justice, and then wanting him to be unjust for you is just silly.

One cannot be forced to love God, that's my point. Even upon absolutely knowing his existence, you'd only draw to him out of fear not out of love. If one does really want to know and love God, they would take that leap of faith because for them it's worth taking. They wouldn't hide behind bad theology and elaborate arguments as an excuse for not responding to him.

shanered · 03-07-2012 01:59AM

Just look at how different all the different Christian groups portray God. each one differently saying this and saying that, do you not see a trend? Do you not see your history and see where many of the aspects of God came from.
There may be a spiritual element to the world that we live in, but to be certain that your sect knows exactly what going on and all the rest are wrong is a little ignorant of history and a little vain in my eyes.
Personally I believe in something spiritually, I do believe in energy and force beyond what modern science can explain, but i think its the same thing with all religions and past religions involving countless gods and godesses, what makes your god different, because he is one?
Thats just like worshiping everything and if you did that hopefully you feel great about everything and I can understand why people would strive for that.
But the whole evidence thing, very subjective in my eyes.
Science is all things measurable.
How could you provide evidence for everything and anything, I believe what many people believe God to be is like a second voice or a made up element of their concience kinda like third person in your mind if that makes any sense, its like creating a parent for your concience that you can never upset and will always love you.
Its very comforting I do believe, but to even ask for evidence is crazy as God is whatever you want and everything.
Not very scientific, where each person has there own idea and of course it would be impossible to analysis everybodies notion of what god is, and even disprove that or even prove that for that matter.
the fact that it works so well is that its as subjective as you like.
Rant over...

Gumbi · 03-07-2012 02:00AM

What do you mean by "the universe is perfect?

Edit: Btw, aren't miracles, by definition, impossible?

liveya · 03-07-2012 02:11AM

Gumbi wrote: »

What do you mean by "the universe is perfect?

Edit: Btw, aren't miracles, by definition, impossible?

What I mean by perfect, is perfect for allowing people to freely come to know him. Perfect in that I cannot prove what has been revealed to me, which gives me good reason to have faith, to you. Therefore imposing him on you.

The original thread questioned the athiest's demand for evidence. Life would be unlivable having evidence, it would be like trying to avoid the sun in a noonday, cloudless desert. Unavoidable, and imposed against our will.

Thankfully he's given us some breathing space and a chance to freely make that choice. Through Christ he's given us enough light to seek him. So real love can flourish.

Gumbi · 03-07-2012 02:12AM

liveya wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

What do you mean by "the universe is perfect?

Edit: Btw, aren't miracles, by definition, impossible?

What I mean by perfect, is perfect for allowing people to freely come to know him. Perfect in that I cannot prove what has been revealed to me, which gives me good reason to have faith, to you. Therefore imposing him on you.

The original thread questioned the athiest's demand for evidence. Life would be unlivable having evidence, it would be like trying to avoid the sun in a noonday, cloudless desert. Unavoidable, and imposed against our will.

Thankfully he's given us some breathing space and a chance to freely make that choice.

That's quite a strange definition of perfect.

Gumbi · 03-07-2012 02:14AM

So you're essentially saying that evidence of God is self-defeating? So why should anyone believe in God in the first place then?

Zillah · 03-07-2012 03:11AM

Can I just clarify something: You believe that a person who genuinely doesn't believe that a God exists, but managed to live a life with kindness and generosity anyway, deserves to suffer torture forever?

People can't force themselves to believe in something they don't. Nor can they love it. Your God is either cruel or insane.

Or, there is no such entity, which would explain why all of this makes no sense.

pauldla · 03-07-2012 06:05AM

With apologies to Douglas Adams.

God: I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing!

Me: Who said that?

God: I did! Oh, er....

Exit God pursued by a bear

It would be like someone standing their watching you all day everyday, intruding on your life, it would be awful. Even for beleivers it would be intrusive and uncomfortable

So, you don't believe in an all-seeing, all-knowing, all pervasive god?

The original thread questioned the athiest's demand for evidence. Life would be unlivable having evidence, it would be like trying to avoid the sun in a noonday, cloudless desert. Unavoidable, and imposed against our will.

I have evidence for many things, and I find life to be quite tolerable. The evidence presented to me for the existence of gravity, for example, has not turned my life into a cloudless desert. Maybe I'm not doing it right.

ceegee · 03-07-2012 06:33AM

totus tuus wrote: »

This photo was allegedly taken by a young girl at Medjugorje in the late 1990s.

Does God not speak Bosnian? You'd think he'd speak/write in the local language.

philologos · 03-07-2012 07:11AM

shanered wrote: »

Just look at how different all the different Christian groups portray God. each one differently saying this and saying that, do you not see a trend? Do you not see your history and see where many of the aspects of God came from.

This is why you shouldn't trust in groups. You should investigate it for yourself. Thankfully we also have the Bible which means we can look into what has been revealed and think about it for ourselves.

There are plenty of reasons as to why one justifiably could believe in Jesus. The case for creation, the case for Jesus' death and resurrection, the case for objective morality, the clear reality of sin and the fallen world we live in, the list goes on and on. The Gospel makes logical sense, from beginning to end.

The reality is most atheists don't want to believe in God. That's why you notice that the goalposts are raised any time you happen to respond to any of their objections. If they really wanted to know God, they would know to seek out and find Him by any means possible. They also know that there are many Christians who would be more than willing to help them to find out more about Jesus. I hope they take that opportunity and look into it rather than actively trying to find any reason not to believe.

mrac · 03-07-2012 08:53AM

But the god of the bible was constantly relieving himself to the world and was constantly performing miracles etc. to prove himself. Then, for no reason at all, he just sort of stopped...and never directly intervened again. Sounds a little suspicious if you ask me.

By the way you could rewrite the op to replace the christian god with say Thor and it would have the exact same merit, so why then do you dismiss Thor so easily and instead embrace the christian god?

liveya · 03-07-2012 09:47AM

mrac wrote: »

But the god of the bible was constantly relieving himself to the world and was constantly performing miracles etc. to prove himself. Then, for no reason at all, he just sort of stopped...and never directly intervened again. Sounds a little suspicious if you ask me.

By the way you could rewrite the op to replace the christian god with say Thor and it would have the exact same merit, so why then do you dismiss Thor so easily and instead embrace the christian god?

He was revealing himself yes, preparing for the messiah. There isn't much need for him to do much more after Jesus came and showed the way. Miracles still occur by the way, especially where the church is growing in Africa and Asia, many don't have the resources we do, like Doctors, so he provides for them. They also have great faith, and don't doubt everything as a way of avoiding him.

In regards to Thor, did Thor actually do anything? Did he send his Son to save them from their sins, did he ever reveal himself and triumph over Evil, in the way most unlikely, humility, sacrifice and suffering? Of course, I'm playing here, Thor was an answer to awareness of something out there, some characteristics of Thor would certainly be similar Yahweh. They got some of it right.

There is good reason to put faith in Christ, but some just don't want to, they have their motives. If they really wanted to know God, they'd seek him, even without evidence, as millions of other people have. It's not as if they're the first person being asked to have faith anyway,

Excuses excuses..

doctoremma · 03-07-2012 09:57AM

This thread reads like a whole heap of cognitive dissonance.

"I cannot provide proof of god's existence so I'm going to argue that proof would have a negative and destructive effect".

Proof for an atheist:
1. the earth stops turning or halts in its orbit for a day.
2. the secrets to curing cancer, harnessing fusion or solving poverty are discovered, written in unambiguous language on a rock somewhere.
3. an unexpected supernova occurs and ignites a message across the universe, saying "I am god, trust in me".
4. an amputee spontaneously grows a new leg, after praying for one.

Things like that.

totus tuus · 03-07-2012 10:02AM

ceegee wrote: »

Does God not speak Bosnian? You'd think he'd speak/write in the local language.

Maybe because the person who took the photo spoke english?

A woman from Harriman, New York, was posing for photos on Apparition Hill at Medjugorje in 1995, and when the film was developed one of the photographs showed the word "CHRIST" written in a dark sky (even though the photos were taken in broad daylight!).

Source:

http://www.spiritdaily.net/Sign_Wonders/skysignsa.htm

The locals in Medjugorje saw the word 'Mir' written in the sky, Bosnian for the word peace!

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/signs-and-miracles/548-mir.html

Then there was the Miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917 witnessed by both atheists and believers alike.

mrac · 03-07-2012 10:05AM

liveya wrote: »

He was revealing himself yes, preparing for the messiah. There isn't much need for him to do much more after Jesus came and showed the way. Miracles still occur by the way, especially where the church is growing in Africa and Asia, many don't have the resources we do, like Doctors, so he provides for them. They also have great faith, and don't doubt everything as a way of avoiding him.

In regards to Thor, did Thor actually do anything? Did he send his Son to save them from their sins, did he ever reveal himself and triumph over Evil, in the way most unlikely, humility, sacrifice and suffering? Of course, I'm playing here, Thor was an answer to awareness of something out there, some characteristics of Thor would certainly be similar Yahweh. They got some of it right.

There is good reason to put faith in Christ, but some just don't want to, they have their motives. If they really wanted to know God, they'd seek him, even without evidence, as millions of other people have. It's not as if they're the first person being asked to have faith anyway,

Excuses excuses..

My point of Thor was that any of the thousands of man made gods could be substituted into the op and have equal credibility. The reason people on this board so firmly believe the christian god over any other is a matter of geography, the majority of people on this board were born into a christian family or christian society or both and it is for that reason they accept the christian god only.

Someone born in say India would be most likely born into a hindu family and therefore believe in the hindu gods. According to your religion these people will be sent to hell (putting false gods before the "true" god) not for being a bad person in any way but simply for being born into a society which "doesnt know any better" regarding the "correct" god.

Surly if god was a loving god he would make an indisputable appearance or such so that everyone would know the correct god and stop following these false gods therefore people would not be doomed to eternal hell simply for not knowing any better, wouldn't you agree?

doctoremma · 03-07-2012 10:35AM

totus tuus wrote: »

Maybe because the person who took the photo spoke english?

Source:

http://www.spiritdaily.net/Sign_Wonders/skysignsa.htm

The locals in Medjugorje saw the word 'Mir' written in the sky, Bosnian for the word peace!

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/signs-and-miracles/548-mir.html

You actually think that photo is real?

liveya · 03-07-2012 10:37AM

mrac wrote: »

My point of Thor was that any of the thousands of man made gods could be substituted into the op and have equal credibility. The reason people on this board so firmly believe the christian god over any other is a matter of geography, the majority of people on this board were born into a christian family or christian society or both and it is for that reason they accept the christian god only.

Someone born in say India would be most likely born into a hindu family and therefore believe in the hindu gods. According to your religion these people will be sent to hell (putting false gods before the "true" god) not for being a bad person in any way but simply for being born into a society which "doesnt know any better" regarding the "correct" god.

Surly if god was a loving god he would make an indisputable appearance or such so that everyone would know the correct god and stop following these false gods therefore people would not be doomed to eternal hell simply for not knowing any better, wouldn't you agree?

No, I don't agree. A majority of new testament historians conclude Jesus existed, and ressurected from the dead. The jews weren't even expecting him to die, no mind ressurect. Theologically it's perfect and has stood the test of time. There is no good reason to believe in Thor.

In your second part you've commited the genetic fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Being born into a Christian family does not mean Christinaity is false, it means one has been chosen to follow Christ in his vocation, to be his disciple.

In your third part, you ask if he was loving, why didn't he make an indesputable appearance: He did. Through Jesus Christ whose historic evidence is credited. Jesus gave us every reason to beleive he is the truth, the light and the way. He is the only person to have never bored anyone with his sermons, and whose theology and logic holds to this day. The lives of the saints and their miracles which are witnessed by the faithful continue.

Like I said before, only those who say but what religon? Don't understand how Christ stands out from other people like Muhammed, or Buddha, They claimed to speak the truth: "Here is my mind", Jesus claimed to be truth.

liveya · 03-07-2012 10:46AM

doctoremma wrote: »

This thread reads like a whole heap of cognitive dissonance.

"I cannot provide proof of god's existence so I'm going to argue that proof would have a negative and destructive effect".

Proof for an atheist:
1. the earth stops turning or halts in its orbit for a day.
2. the secrets to curing cancer, harnessing fusion or solving poverty are discovered, written in unambiguous language on a rock somewhere.
3. an unexpected supernova occurs and ignites a message across the universe, saying "I am god, trust in me".
4. an amputee spontaneously grows a new leg, after praying for one.

Things like that.

You can't be serious. Have you ever thought to yourself, that if any of these things happened, it might not be according to the divine plan, or that actually it's not proof at all, people could and would foff it off as a co-incedence, or a hallucination. Even if those things did happen, what then? You still don't know God, you just know he exists and therefore are trapped, what if you didn't want to know him, is that fair that he imposed himself on you?

Also, you're a human, limited and finite. Those things you suggested might not be working towards a greater good, they might disrupt everything with catastrophic effects. So your arrogance of how God could do things is exposed, when you cannot accept you could be wrong in what you suggested.

God doesn't have to prove himself to you, or do anything at your command. If you wanted to know him, you'd seek him, simple as. Many others have. But it seems your ulterior motives prevent you from taking that leap of faith.

Stark · 03-07-2012 10:53AM

liveya wrote: »

In regards to Thor, did Thor actually do anything? Did he send his Son to save them from their sins, did he ever reveal himself and triumph over Evil, in the way most unlikely, humility, sacrifice and suffering? Of course, I'm playing here, Thor was an answer to awareness of something out there, some characteristics of Thor would certainly be similar Yahweh. They got some of it right.

Thor could make thunder and lightning with his mighty hammer. Why do you deny the spectacle of thunder and lightning so easily?

Getting 'evidence' would break the system.

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