Women's 800m - GB select B-Standard athlete in favour of 4 A-Standard runners

Pisco Sour · 03-07-2012 02:54PM #1

Just seen this on Jemma Simpson's twitter:

Most countries would celebrate the fact that an event group is so strong. Not penalise the athletes by not selecting them #gutted

It seems like Lyndsey Sharp's impressive closing 200m at the Europeans, along with her win at the UK trials has gained her a spot on the Olympic team, but as she only has a B-Standard this means that only she can be picked, resulting in 4 athletes on A-Standards, including Meadows and Okoro to miss out.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9372881/Team-GB-athletics-squad-for-London-2012-Olympics-announced.html

Pherekydes · 03-07-2012 03:08PM

An amusing angle is that if Sharp (daughter of Cameron Sharp) ran the 'A' standard between now and Sunday they could add two more athletes to their team.

Sharp won the trial and ran a PB in her first championship final last Friday. She deserves her slot.

Pisco Sour · 03-07-2012 03:12PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

An amusing angle is that if Sharp (daughter of Cameron Sharp) ran the 'A' standard between now and Sunday they could add two more athletes to their team.

Sharp won the trial and ran a PB in her first championship final last Friday. She deserves her slot.

Haha, I never thought of that. Would be great if she could go and do that, and at least try for the others sake.

She deserves to go as she is the athlete in form, but it is tough on the others who have achieved the time and will not be going while GB has 2 empty unfilled spots in London. According to that article Okoro said she is quitting the sport. I'm sure it's just an overreaction, but I can imagine how pissed she must be.

the_real_lamp · 03-07-2012 03:39PM

I do feel sorry for Okoro, but all she needed was to be in the top 2 at the UK trials but ran a stupid 57 second first lap. Time and time again she misjudges races.

It is amazing that none of their A standard athletes are selected but they are going with form. For the past couple of years GB have had a much vaunted 800m squad, kinda failing apart at the wrong time for them.

pc11 · 03-07-2012 10:17PM

It's a hugely unusual decision to take the B standard but Okoro blew it for herself with that crazy run at the trials. It was a big call to leave Meadows out, she is a championship runner. She hasn't performed yet this year though.

Edit: is it just me or is the title of this topic phrased funnily? In favour of usually refers to the the successful one so shouldn't it be "GB omits 4 A standards in favour of B standard runner"?

Pisco Sour · 03-07-2012 11:14PM

pc11 wrote: »

Edit: is it just me or is the title of this topic phrased funnily? In favour of usually refers to the the successful one so shouldn't it be "GB omits 4 A standards in favour of B standard runner"?

Probably. It was just before my bedtime when I put this up.

Dan man · 03-07-2012 11:25PM

Very interesting selection indeed but a very fair selection...although it is very unfortunate for those with the A-standard not to be chosen. But it was a bizarre situation the G.B. selectors were left with and how could you say to Lynsey Sharp, "you beat all those girls (barring the injured Jenny Meadows) fair and square at the British trials and again at the Euros en route to claiming a silver medal but we've decided to choose 3 other British 800m runners ahead of you for London".
That's the situation that was presented to the selectors and fair play to them for taking the courage to select Sharp despite the expected backlash that will follow. She is the best of the British at this moment in time and she proved herself again at the Euros with silver so on that form she deserves her place at the Olympics.

Jessicer · 04-07-2012 08:28AM

I'm new to boards but run myself. Based on this selection what is the purpose of the A standard so? If the trials are current form are so much more important than achieving the international entry standard then why have it?

There is no doubt that Sharp is the current athlete in form. However, if this was in the USA she would not be selected as she does not have an A standard?

It is a little rediculous to impose a standard and have athletes chase that time only to ignore it when the crunch decision is required? I feel very sorry for the girls with the A standards who are not selected. It's bizarre to me. Best of luck to Lynsey Sharp, she's a good athlete but has no chance of a medal in London.

robinph · 04-07-2012 08:35AM

If just one of the A standard athletes had won the trials then they would have selected three A standard athletes. They all failed or are injured though. Bit of a strange selection, but not much else they could do.

tHE vAGGABOND · 04-07-2012 08:46AM

What is sorta calls into question is letting people get the qualifying time "last season" - as its clearly a case of "so what if you were really fast last year, your not now"

But the girl in question won the trials and got a [pretty lucky] silver in the euros [was *miles behind* and had a really fast finish as rest slowed down and one girl tripped/stumbled] - so I rather that than select someone who was good a couple of years ago but has done nothing this season etc

Pherekydes · 04-07-2012 09:36AM

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

What is sorta calls into question is letting people get the qualifying time "last season" - as its clearly a case of "so what if you were really fast last year, your not now"

The qualifying period is set by the IAAF. Dwain Chambers doesn't have the 'A' this year, but he does from last year. I think it shows the stupidity of relying on standards at all. The athletes have a very short window (in the current year) to get the standard. The qualifying period closes next Sunday. July 8th is very early in the Athletic year. Many athletes would produce their season's best in August and September.

Clearlier · 04-07-2012 10:17AM

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

What is sorta calls into question is letting people get the qualifying time "last season" - as its clearly a case of "so what if you were really fast last year, your not now"

But the girl in question won the trials and got a [pretty lucky] silver in the euros [was *miles behind* and had a really fast finish as rest slowed down and one girl tripped/stumbled] - so I rather that than select someone who was good a couple of years ago but has done nothing this season etc

You prompted me to good look at the European race on youtube because 800m races almost never end in fast finishes. The winner is usually the one who maintains their pace best and slows down the least on the 2nd lap with the last 100 often being absolute carnage. If she was lucky it was because many of the others ran stupid races. She ran a perfectly judged race with the second lap a small bit slower than the first where most of the others went out too fast. The last two that she passed were out on their feet. The one tripping over her own legs was because she was too tired to control them any more. It takes a lot of courage to hang off the back like she did - reminded me of how Wilson Kipketer ran many of his races.

I don't know anything about her training but if she's a strength type runner then she'll have an outside chance of a medal as finals of championship 800m races are often relatively slow due to the rounds needed to get there. She'll still need to find another little bit though and there's very little time to get it.

While I understand why the selection was made I can't help thinking that the runners with the A standard would have represented a better bet. The 800m is one of the toughest finals to qualify for and it's not at all difficult to see her not even making the final.

rainbow kirby · 04-07-2012 10:19AM

Possibly the odd non-running-related reason involved?

Surely though an athlete in form would and should have made the A standard by now and we wouldn't be having this discussion. That said, Marilyn Okoro at the trials was pure comedy :pac:

Pisco Sour · 04-07-2012 10:33AM

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

But the girl in question won the trials and got a [pretty lucky] silver in the euros [was *miles behind* and had a really fast finish as rest slowed down and one girl tripped/stumbled] - so I rather that than select someone who was good a couple of years ago but has done nothing this season etc

That's silly. There's nothing lucky about it. It's an 800m race, not a 760m race. The others slowed down/ stumbled because they went out too fast. Tough luck.

Pisco Sour · 04-07-2012 10:37AM

If the Brits, with their impressive depth can see the value in sending a B-Standard athlete to the Olympics then surely the OCI can take their heads out of their ars5s and pick Jessie Barr and Brian Gregan, athletes who are 1) in form and 2) perform to their best in championships, when it matters.

average_runner · 04-07-2012 11:55AM

Pisco Sour wrote: »

If the Brits, with their impressive depth can see the value in sending a B-Standard athlete to the Olympics then surely the OCI can take their heads out of their ars5s and pick Jessie Barr and Brian Gregan, athletes who are 1) in form and 2) perform to their best in championships, when it matters.

"OCI can take their heads out of their ars5s " and this will be the day the world will end!!!

Jessicer · 04-07-2012 01:17PM

Clearlier wrote: »

I don't know anything about her training but if she's a strength type runner then she'll have an outside chance of a medal as finals of championship 800m races are often relatively slow due to the rounds needed to get there. She'll still need to find another little bit though and there's very little time to get it.

I would be happy to wager that an athlete who can't run the A standard has no chance of a medal. It makes no sense. That event at the europeans was without some of the leading europeans and is not a great pointer to London.

If they had selected their A standard athletes and tried to get Jenny Meadws on the starting line, their medal chances would have been greater.

Pisco Sour · 04-07-2012 01:23PM

Jessicer wrote: »

I would be happy to wager that an athlete who can't run the A standard has no chance of a medal. It makes no sense. That event at the europeans was without some of the leading europeans and is not a great pointer to London.

If they had selected their A standard athletes and tried to get Jenny Meadws on the starting line, their medal chances would have been greater.

To be honest I don't think any of them would have a hope at a medal (especially considering none of the others have been running well of late and/or are fit). Savinova, Semenya and Jelimo will sweep them up.

Deirdre Ryan went to Daegu on a B-Standard and came 6th. Not a medal I know but just goes to show how highly an in form B-Standard athlete can perform. (Ironically she has the A-Standard now, but hasn't done anything of note yet this season).

Jessicer · 04-07-2012 01:31PM

Pisco Sour wrote: »

To be honest I don't think any of them would have a hope at a medal (especially considering none of the others have been running well of late and/or are fit). Savinova, Semenya and Jelimo will sweep them up.

Deirdre Ryan went to Daegu on a B-Standard and came 6th. Not a medal I know but just goes to show how highly an in form B-Standard athlete can perform. (Ironically she has the A-Standard now, but hasn't done anything of note yet this season).

I would like to see athletes who have the B sent. Don't get me wrong. However Deirdre Ryan's selection last year didn't keep anybody with an A standard at home. Her performance was remarkable and ensures that the ladies are continuously Ireland best performers at championships.

How would we feel if Ciaran O'Lionaird was not sent and an athlete with a B standard was? AAI would be ripped apart here.

ecoli · 04-07-2012 01:40PM

Jessicer wrote: »

I would be happy to wager that an athlete who can't run the A standard has no chance of a medal. It makes no sense. That event at the europeans was without some of the leading europeans and is not a great pointer to London.

If they had selected their A standard athletes and tried to get Jenny Meadws on the starting line, their medal chances would have been greater.

And what does that say about A standard athletes who can't beat her in a championship setting (Trials or Europeans) Okay you had Meadows struggling with injury but often we see the incidence where A standard athletes expend so much energy trying to achieve the time that come the Championships there are past their seasonal peak because they had to be at their best just to get there.

If you look at Irish standards over the last while many times the standards were set alot higher than the IAAF require to qualify for events. The result is we aim to have our runners as time trialists and often this doesnt translate to championship racing.

Its one thing to run a once off fast time its a completely different to run rounds and tactical races. We need to get away from the time trialist attitude and get back to producing racers. How often do you see an 800m+ race won in quicker than a DL meeting?

I do feel extremely sorry for the athletes who have the standard and were left at home but I think the move is a smart one in terms of providing a template to get away from the time trialist mentality needed to excel in major championships

An example of this would be Matt Centrowitz medalling last year with a PB hat shouldnt have got him near the medals

Jessicer · 04-07-2012 03:20PM

ecoli wrote: »

Its one thing to run a once off fast time its a completely different to run rounds and tactical races. We need to get away from the time trialist attitude and get back to producing racers. How often do you see an 800m+ race won in quicker than a DL meeting?

I do feel extremely sorry for the athletes who have the standard and were left at home but I think the move is a smart one in terms of providing a template to get away from the time trialist mentality needed to excel in major championships

An example of this would be Matt Centrowitz medalling last year with a PB hat shouldnt have got him near the medals

I think we are arguing different points here. Middle and long distance races will always be slower in major championships than in Diamond League races. Thats a given due to paced makers. This does not mean that people without the A standard should be sent instead of people who do. Its a far fetched assumption.

Matthew Centrowitz had the A standard last year, he may not have been in the world top 20 list but his PB was marginally quicker than O'Lionaird. The 800m and 1500m are more open to competitors outside the world top 15 taking a sneaky medal but I can't name one athlete in recent years on the track who came within a roar of a medal without an A standard.

My point here is simple: athletes should be told wat they need to do to make the team. If that is an A standard then stick to it. If it is victory in the trials then thats fine too. The least any association needs to be is honest and upfront with the athletes.

Your point re championship racers is only partly true. The overall time of the distance races may be slower than diamond league races but there are lung busting sections of the race. I would venture that if you are not capable of 12 mins 50, you won't medal in this years 5k for men, 14.35 for women, regardless of finishing time.

ecoli · 04-07-2012 03:42PM

Jessicer wrote: »

I think we are arguing different points here. Middle and long distance races will always be slower in major championships than in Diamond League races. Thats a given due to paced makers. This does not mean that people without the A standard should be sent instead of people who do. Its a far fetched assumption.

Matthew Centrowitz had the A standard last year, he may not have been in the world top 20 list but his PB was marginally quicker than O'Lionaird. The 800m and 1500m are more open to competitors outside the world top 15 taking a sneaky medal but I can't name one athlete in recent years on the track who came within a roar of a medal without an A standard.

My point here is simple: athletes should be told wat they need to do to make the team. If that is an A standard then stick to it. If it is victory in the trials then thats fine too. The least any association needs to be is honest and upfront with the athletes.

Your point re championship racers is only partly true. The overall time of the distance races may be slower than diamond league races but there are lung busting sections of the race. I would venture that if you are not capable of 12 mins 50, you won't medal in this years 5k for men, 14.35 for women, regardless of finishing time.

Funnily enough Centro and Ciaran actually had the exact same PB going into that final (3.34.46) Yes he had the A standard but my point was that he medalled ahead of much faster athletes on paper and was able to navigate the rounds perfectly (Ok luck did play a part in it)

My point was rather it is a step in the right direction regarding getting away from times rather than racing as a decider. I agree 9/10 times the faster runners will not have to worry about the tactical affairs as their ability will be enough to see off a challenge.

I agree I cant name a B standard athlete who has medalled but this could be down to very few B athletes being able to out race A standard athletes in a championship setting. Most of the time the only B standard athletes we see in major championships are simply those from countries who have no A standards. If Sharp has proved she can out perform here A standard compatriots as well as proving current form and Championship racing prowess then I reckon she stands a better chance of reaching final (as opposed to only talking about medal as this is a hugely strong field this year)

I do also agree with your point regarding clear defined rules. van Commenee has pulled a huge U turn regarding his selection Policy of No B standards while remaining inconsistent which is unfair on these athletes

Jessicer · 04-07-2012 04:12PM

I also agree that Sharp is the form athlete. She is selected and I hope she does well.

Clearlier · 04-07-2012 06:53PM

We all agree in the end...

I went and did a little digging and what I said about Sharp needing to find a little extra to have an outside shot at a medal was more optimistic than I thought. The standard has improved since I used to watch it in Sonia's heyday and she'd need to be in a position to improve her PB by 4-5 seconds to have a shot. Given that she has been judging her races well there probably isn't a massive amount of improvement in time available and it'll probably take a PB to make the final. That said she's only 0.6 of a second off an A standard and I think that she could do that.

I think that I'd stand by my original assertion that they would have been better off bringing the other 3 and that's not to mention the whole u-turn about standards.

Pisco Sour · 04-07-2012 11:28PM

Clearlier wrote: »

We all agree in the end...

I went and did a little digging and what I said about Sharp needing to find a little extra to have an outside shot at a medal was more optimistic than I thought. The standard has improved since I used to watch it in Sonia's heyday and she'd need to be in a position to improve her PB by 4-5 seconds to have a shot. Given that she has been judging her races well there probably isn't a massive amount of improvement in time available and it'll probably take a PB to make the final. That said she's only 0.6 of a second off an A standard and I think that she could do that.

I think that I'd stand by my original assertion that they would have been better off bringing the other 3 and that's not to mention the whole u-turn about standards.

Her PB is 2:00. If she runs 1:58 in an Olympic final she will be very close. I don't think she will medal (may scrape into the final) but no way would she have to run 1:55-1:56 to have a shot at bronze. That sort of time would win gold. My guess would be that a high 1:57 will get the bronze.

Clearlier · 05-07-2012 08:50AM

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Her PB is 2:00. If she runs 1:58 in an Olympic final she will be very close. I don't think she will medal (may scrape into the final) but no way would she have to run 1:55-1:56 to have a shot at bronze. That sort of time would win gold. My guess would be that a high 1:57 will get the bronze.

You could well be right and I was originally thinking similarish numbers to that but when I looked at the Beijing results the slowest qualifier for the final ran 1:58:61. In the final 1:56:73 got bronze with 1:56:94 getting 4th.

In Daegu, the slowest qualifying time for the final was 1:58:98. In the final 3rd place was 1:57:42, 4th was 1:57:48 and 5th was 1:57:82.

I guess it was probably the arrival of Semenya that pushed standards on a little bit - now that she's no longer the force she initially was perhaps the standards are coming down a little. Either way Sharp is looking at a minimum of a 3 second PB to be in with a shout having already run 2 rounds close to or better than her current PB. I think that my original thought that she had an oustide chance was too optimistic. A more accurate one would be that she has an outside chance of reaching the final.

I guess in the end we're probably saying the same thing?

ecoli · 05-07-2012 03:21PM

Ian Stewart on the decision to send Sharp:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/athletics/ian-stewart-decision-to-take-lynsey-sharp-is-a-purely-practical-one-1-2392472

runjb · 05-07-2012 06:21PM

Marlyn Okoro bounced back from her disappointment with a super run in Belgium tonight. She finished in 2nd place in 600m, only one second behind Pamela Jelimo, reigning Olympic and World Indoor Champion.

Jelimo: 1.23.35
Okoro: 1.24.36

I do feel sorry for her, she has shown great form this season and just ran that badly judged race at the trials where she went off like a train!

Edit: That time is a British record for the distance. It's rarely run,but nevertheless it beats 1.25.41 held by Kelly Holmes. Good running from Okoro!

ecoli · 06-07-2012 02:53PM

runjb wrote: »

Marlyn Okoro bounced back from her disappointment with a super run in Belgium tonight. She finished in 2nd place in 600m, only one second behind Pamela Jelimo, reigning Olympic and World Indoor Champion.

Jelimo: 1.23.35
Okoro: 1.24.36

I do feel sorry for her, she has shown great form this season and just ran that badly judged race at the trials where she went off like a train!

Edit: That time is a British record for the distance. It's rarely run,but nevertheless it beats 1.25.41 held by Kelly Holmes. Good running from Okoro!

Jelimo's time was 4th fastest ever

Women's 800m - GB select B-Standard athlete in favour of 4 A-Standard runners

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