Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

miller50841 · 16-07-2012 12:45PM

If the country is in such a bad state which it is i can't understand how they were able to replace all the old trains and carriages same as there are a load of new buses coming in look at BE they making huge loses and looking for more staff to go. DB is nearly rid of its RV fleet which hardly gave any trouble they were reliable where as the newer one 2000 on always break down. Why could the old ones not be kept and refurbished as this is what the new owners of them are doing

Onthe3rdDay · 16-07-2012 12:51PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Expensive

Not on time

Unreliable

Grubby

Often no food to be had

Shruggy attitude of staff when this happens

Bad times of trains - often impossible to get a train to a destination and back at the times you need - which becomes a self-fulfilling disadvantage as people then choose other forms of transport

Bad co-ordination with other services, eg ferries

Train stations often unpleasant and uncomfortable

Difficulty of finding information

Have been on trains where people were rowdy and drunk and there was no sign of any staff; have never experienced this abroad

Bad passenger service - for instance in carrying bicycles

And that's from one who loves train journeys in countries where the trains work well, like France or Japan.

Solve these problems and the service will thrive.

Expensive - Why does it cost so much at off peak times? Trains are half empty, Not surprising when a ticket is now a minimum of 45.99 one way from Cork to Dublin if you're buying On-line on the same day (the 2 euro Card charge is included in the price)
Not on time - Has not happened that often to myself recently, but why not give an announcement that the train is going to be 30 minutes late if that's the case. People can rearrange plans if they're kept informed.
Grubby - Yes
Often no food to be had - Water has to be a certain temperature to melt the coffee granules. Irish Rail may not be aware of this fact.
Shruggy attitude of staff when this happens - What Staff?
A lot of the time all you see on the train are the revenue protection Unit, but only when there's no troublesome element on the train.
Bad times of trains - often impossible to get a train to a destination and back at the times you need - which becomes a self-fulfilling disadvantage as people then choose other forms of transport - I get the Dublin-Tralee Train a lot. It's a very nice Train. It used to leave at about 6.30pm for years and years. You had a lot of people on it, returning to Cork and Kerry after a Day in the capital. It was moved to 5.05 for no obvious reason. Now it's like a ghost train a lot of the time. I've been on Carriages with just 3 or 4 other people on more than one occasion.
Bad co-ordination with other services, eg ferries - Agreed
Train stations often unpleasant and uncomfortable - Would someone ever get a Hawk for the stations. Pigeons are a major problem. I'm not even going to comment on the undesirable element around the station and at the Luas Stop. Dublin Stations have one of the most threatening atmosphere's I've experienced.
Difficulty of finding information. Yes
Have been on trains where people were rowdy and drunk and there was no sign of any staff; have never experienced this abroad - This happens all the time on the Cork-Dublin Line but staff never appear.
Bad passenger service - for instance in carrying bicycles - Yes

However, the main problem is cost. It really is a no brainer for those on a budget (which is most of us right now) Why would I take the train to Dublin for 4 times the cost of a Bus? Yes I know if I pre-book I can get the tickets cheaper, but sometimes meetings have to happen at short notice. It would be different if the trains were all full but they aren't.

miller50841 · 16-07-2012 01:04PM

I really wish people would be nicer to the staff of any of the transport sections often see people been rude or having smart digs or whatever which been human can bother staff members which in turn may rub off when another person may ask something. It doesn't cost anything to be nice and if asking a question actually give the person your asking a bit of respect...

68Murph68 · 16-07-2012 01:05PM

To CIE the customer is a nuisance.

None of the staff are all that concerned if passenger numbers fall because they know that there is no danger of ever going out of business.

Less passengers travelling means less problems which mean an easier life.

bk · 16-07-2012 01:13PM

Interesting to note that the Irish Rail fare promotion has been extended indefinitely:

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_offers.jsp?i=4577&p=118&n=144&ci=4

It must have been a success.

I note it says:

Luas Add (€1.60 each way) is only available by selecting “Dublin City Centre” as an origin/ destination when travelling to/ from Cork/ Ennis/ Galway/ Limerick/ Mayo/ Nenagh/ Tralee/ Waterford

Three things about this:

1) I assume the add on can also be used on the 90 bus, but I don't see any mention of this.
2) When you book this online, it says the ticket is for train and bus, but doesn't mention luas. I assume it should say train + luas/bus.
3) At €1.60 it is more expensive then using a leap card, the price for pre-booking a ticket like this should really be the same or cheaper then leap.

So the total price for a return ticket to Cork from O'Connell St, including online booking fee and credit card fee is €46.18.

Still over double the price of Aircoach at €20.

I suppose it is better then over 4 times more expensive for the walk up fee!!

Jamie2k9 · 16-07-2012 01:18PM

I get the Dublin-Tralee Train a lot. It's a very nice Train. It used to leave at about 6.30pm for years and years. You had a lot of people on it, returning to Cork and Kerry after a Day in the capital. It was moved to 5.05 for no obvious reason. Now it's like a ghost train a lot of the time. I've been on Carriages with just 3 or 4 other people on more than one occasion.

It was moved because the 17.00 to Cork which allowed a connection to Tralee had major overcrowing issues because there was so many people who wanted to travel Mallow-Tralee.

In regaurd to the Waterford-Limerick J line IE have admitted they need to improve and increase services between Clomnel-Waterford and they know well there would be demand for it but they are doing nothing about it and they never well. After the Tall Ships last year they receive a great response from passengers and the one question that kept coming up to staff in Waterford was Why isn't there a service like this on a regular basis.

miller50841 · 16-07-2012 01:38PM

68Murph68 wrote: »

To CIE the customer is a nuisance.

None of the staff are all that concerned if passenger numbers fall because they know that there is no danger of ever going out of business.

Less passengers travelling means less problems which mean an easier life.

It may seem that way to you but if I was working there and I would like to think its the same for staff if there are no passengers and trains are cut then it does mean staff cuts wont be far behind

LeftBlank · 16-07-2012 02:36PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

How much was spent on the road network in the last 20 years to enable (amongst other things) these buses to have faster journey times vs. how much was spent on railway infrastructure in the same time?

Matt Bauer · 16-07-2012 02:42PM

Seriously, you think that the buses are more comfortable!? Yes, they've improved a lot, but so have the trains.

bk · 16-07-2012 02:44PM

LeftBlank wrote: »

How much was spent on the road network in the last 20 years to enable (amongst other things) these buses to have faster journey times vs. how much was spent on railway infrastructure in the same time?

The problem with this argument is that improvements in road infrastructure also benefited cars (which make up 70% of all intercity journeys) and freight (which makes up 99% of all freight transported in Ireland).

Roads were always going to be upgraded, they are far too important to a nations economy.

Nowhere in the western world do you build rail lines instead of roads. You build roads first and if they aren't enough to meet demand, then you build railways too to supplement the roads.

The question we are now faced with is, now that we have an excellent road infrastructure. Do we also need intercity rail in addition to this?

Well to answer the question, given that we already have rail, we might as well use it and make the most of it. However I think it needs massive rationalisation and cost reductions and I don't think it makes sense to invest heavily in it going forward.

In other words, sweet the asset that is rail.

bk · 16-07-2012 02:48PM

Matt Bauer wrote: »

Seriously, you think that the buses are more comfortable!? Yes, they've improved a lot, but so have the trains.

Yes, in some ways they are. They have more comfortable seats that are fully leather. More legroom. They are also quieter and have a smoother ride.

On the other hand rail has the advantage of on board toilets (though some bus services like to Galway have this also), food on board and the ability to walk around.

To be honest, having used both regularly to Cork, there really is very little difference between them in terms of comfort. Certainly not worth the 2 to 4 times difference in ticket prices.

But the bigger question is should the tax payers be subsidising Irish Rail to the tune of hundreds of millions per year, just because you think rail might be slightly more comfortable!!

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 02:55PM

LeftBlank wrote: »

How much was spent on the road network in the last 20 years to enable (amongst other things) these buses to have faster journey times vs. how much was spent on railway infrastructure in the same time?

How much is spent per passenger kilometre on Irish Rail compared to Bus Eireann?

Irish Rail are burning up funds far quicker than even the old P&T and they still cant survive in the real world without sending the begging letters to Dáil Éireann.

kieran4003 · 16-07-2012 03:45PM

Its funny you should mention leather seats, Irish Rail will be trialling leather seat coverings in first class ICR Carriages. One has been done already.

I think first class should be done away with really, the exception should be Dublin-Cork-Belfast where a premium offering is needed. As bk refers to, the railway needs rationalisation and it simply needs to be cheap, reliable and basic. We are a lot closer to that now then 5 years ago, the cost of running the railway has fallen by over 60 million since 2007.

laoisfan · 16-07-2012 03:52PM

kieran4003 wrote: »

An Expert from the UK has been brought in and is assisting in developing a new schedule. Mass review of line speeds, times and services. New timetable in September/Autumn. The standard Dublin - Cork time will be 2:20 with two stops. A speed trail train recently covered the route in 2:14 with all speed restrictions. There will be further trials with higher speeds to get an express 2:00 time. Infrastructure investment is finally paying off.

I was told this by several people both in Thurles, Tipperary & Rathdowney, Laois ( and some of these people work for Irish Rail ). However, they also said it would start from Thurles instead so stations from Thurles up would not lose out. Most of the trains get busier from Thurles onwards in the morning.

Another one for the chop is the early morning Nenagh train which departs Ballybrophy around 7:09am. Not surprised with that.

steamengine · 16-07-2012 03:52PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes and you get very little of any value for your €100 return to Belfast. there was a free newspaper but it was the Belfast Telegraph, the seat was comfortable and the carriage seemed very quiet which was great but the overall ride quality was the same because the line is so poor.

There really are no lines in Ireland that deserve a first class service, First class is seen more as an apology to business travellers for the poor ride quality and the long journey times.

More patent nonsense from the foggy stable. The Northern line is 90 mph running for the most part and the ride quality was excellent the last time I used it. In fact I clocked the speed several times and it was in the mid-eighties. The Enterprise is a top class service all round IMO. Continue with your rubbishing of Irish Rail and Translink if you will - I'll try my best to lend some balance.

end of the road · 16-07-2012 04:09PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

who suggested running a railway for tourism? nobody. i suggested we need to attract tourists, theirs a big difference between running a railway for tourists and attracting them to use the railways provided for ordinary passengers.

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes

rubbish. busses may be faster on the intercity routes but from wexford none i've been on have been faster then the train so stop talking rubbish for god sake. and cheap they maybe but cheap and nasty, i'd rather a 2700 railcar before i'd take a bus.

foggy_lad wrote: »

so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

yeh, irish rail. not railways. irish rail is the problem so reform them or abolish them. you obviously can't separate your dislike for irish rail from the actual railway. getting rid of the railway would be a form of bullying people to use one method of transport which is exactly what CIE have been doing since their inception. oh and you use trains i thought?

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 04:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

In short Irish rail have had their chips and far too long IMHO to sort themselves out, there really is no conceivable way that rail travel will be anything other than an expensive plaything for those who frequent first class and a massive burden on the state until it is dismantled. By all means keep old alignments like Waterford to limerick junction but no more care and maintenance please.

foggy_lad wrote: »

As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

who suggested running a railway for tourism? nobody. i suggested we need to attract tourists, theirs a big difference between running a railway for tourists and attracting them to use the railways provided for ordinary passengers.

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes

rubbish. busses may be faster on the intercity routes but from wexford none i've been on have been faster then the train so stop talking rubbish for god sake. and cheap they maybe but cheap and nasty, i'd rather a 2700 railcar before i'd take a bus.

foggy_lad wrote: »

so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

yeh, irish rail. not railways. irish rail is the problem so reform them or abolish them. you obviously can't separate your dislike for irish rail from the actual railway. getting rid of the railway would be a form of bullying people to use one method of transport which is exactly what CIE have been doing since their inception. oh and you use trains i thought?

Foggy lad how do you propose we take more commuting off the road then? I think you may have forgot but we have the small matter of cutting our greenhouse gas emissions or face avhefty fine and by a hefty fine i dont mean a few euros! Getting rid of something is simply not the answer but actually reviewing and changing the company that runs it is, if only the government looked at a company like irish rail and realise how much of our money they have wasted we might get somewhere but that wont get votes would it?

end of the road · 16-07-2012 04:22PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

How much can be saved by shutting down the WRC Nenagh Branch and the Waterford-LJ line? Answer: probably enough to save the rest of the railway network for a few more years

thats what CIE said in the 50s 60s and 70s when they were closing lines, did it work? no.
those closures were supposed to save the rail network and cut costs but still we've got a slow railway who the company in charge of running it is running it into the ground. pruning is just an excuse, it won't save the railways because it will keep happening until theirs nothing left, it never worked and never will.

Judgement Day · 16-07-2012 04:27PM

On no account should 1st class be done away with - it should be enhanced, marketed and, if necessary, the price increased. Apart from attracting business traffic, it's the benchmark by which the quality of the whole intercity package can be judged against. No 1st = an overall of acceptable level of mediocrity.

Back in the old MkII days they had a very sensible arrangement for less important routes which involved the use of a composite carriage - 18 First class divided by a vestibule from 32 standard class. This worked well but when the MkIIIs came in IE bastardised the composite concept and the 1st class became a 'chicken coop' crushed into one end of a carriage and was far more claustrophobic than the standard seating in the same carriage

MK%2B2%2BCompo.jpg

highlydebased · 16-07-2012 04:31PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes and you get very little of any value for your €100 return to Belfast. there was a free newspaper but it was the Belfast Telegraph, the seat was comfortable and the carriage seemed very quiet which was great but the overall ride quality was the same because the line is so poor.

There really are no lines in Ireland that deserve a first class service, First class is seen more as an apology to business travellers for the poor ride quality and the long journey times.

I find the ride quality to Belfast superior to anywhere else in Ireland. It's also half an hour faster than Bus Eireann.

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 04:34PM

it should be marketed like bus eireann are marketing there new coaches. We always say "coulda shoulda woulda", IE always seem to say NAH can't be doing that

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 04:51PM

kieran4003 wrote: »

Its funny you should mention leather seats, Irish Rail will be trialling leather seat coverings in first class ICR Carriages. One has been done already.

I think first class should be done away with really, the exception should be Dublin-Cork-Belfast where a premium offering is needed. As bk refers to, the railway needs rationalisation and it simply needs to be cheap, reliable and basic. We are a lot closer to that now then 5 years ago, the cost of running the railway has fallen by over 60 million since 2007.

Well considdring the only difference with their "PREMIUM" offering is getting a staff member all to yourself in an empty carriage plus a small bit of cloth attached to the same seats as everyone else at head height with the word premium emblazoned onto it there should be no premium class, it simply costs too much to provide the service for one or two people while the rest of the train is so full people are standing everywhere.

On a train to Dublin recently I experienced this where the 4 standard class carriages were dangerously overcrowded yet the diligent staff member stood his ground and blocked anyone from seating themselves in the empty dining car or the empty premium carriage, as it happens there was also no ticket check on that train and the staff menber did not walk the train once from Carlow to Dublin!

bk · 16-07-2012 05:00PM

end of the road wrote: »

rubbish. busses may be faster on the intercity routes but from wexford none i've been on have been faster then the train so stop talking rubbish for god sake. and cheap they maybe but cheap and nasty, i'd rather a 2700 railcar before i'd take a bus.

He is correct about the main intercity routes, Dublin to Cork, Limerick and Galway are all faster by bus coach city center to city center. And these make up roughly 80% of all intercity journeys, so on the whole he is correct.

Foggy lad how do you propose we take more commuting off the road then? I think you may have forgot but we have the small matter of cutting our greenhouse gas emissions or face avhefty fine and by a hefty fine i dont mean a few euros!

Well fast cheap bus coaches at €20 return are going to do far more to get people out of their cars then €80 train tickets.

I already have two friends who were driving to Cork, but have no switched to Aircoach due to the cheap tickets.

Also don't forget that a bus coach is less polluting per passenger then a diesel train. Specially when you consider Irish Rail running half empty trains up and down the country most of the day.

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 05:06PM

Still a full train would be much better than 100 cars on the road and nobody can deny rail freight is better but thats dead and buried too only 3 freight workings left in ireland, brings a tear to ones eye

TheDoc · 16-07-2012 05:14PM

Swords has the highest (well it did as of three years ago) under 28 population of any city in Europe. No DART or RAIL service.

I would take the train over the bus any day of the week. I can't stand how every bus from Swords takes a tour of Dublin before getting into the city. Probably too late now, no money to invest in building the service.

Buts its business as usual for the top brass on the big bucks to continue being completely unimaginative and stifled of innovation. So many stops and stations have next to zero passengers, even during the boom ( I used to get on at Broombridge coming home from working in the area) and was regularly the only person getting on.

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 05:14PM

davidlacey wrote: »

Still a full train would be much better than 100 cars on the road and nobody can deny rail freight is better but thats dead and buried too only 3 freight workings left in ireland, brings a tear to ones eye

That about sums it up for Irish Rail, A pack of whingers who cant see the reality that rail has a very limited future in Ireland and it does not have any place for sentimentality when the lines start to close and get cut back to Dundalk, Longford, Wexford and Carlow, with reduced services on all other lines, Dont be surprised to see Cork trains cancelled or defferred to the next service due to lack of passengers.

DoesNotCompute · 16-07-2012 05:16PM

artybart wrote: »

I took the train from Sligo to Dublin for the first time yesterday. 2hours and 58 minutes to do a couple of hundred kilometers, stopping at every little village along the way. Chugging along at 10 miles per hour. Plus, they also had slow stopping trains as well as the "Fast trains" for the little villages.
Comming back I asked at the ticket office for a ticket on the non-stop Dublin to Sligo!!!!! He said it does not exist???

Therein lies the problem.

On the Dublin-Sligo line, it's only doubled tracked out as far as Maynooth. If this was extended out to, say, Longford, you could run twice as many trains and double the frequency of trains for all the towns between Longford and Dublin. Also trains going to Longford would not have to wait in Maynooth for the delayed train to Dublin to clear the line out beyond Maynooth before moving off.

Instead of investing in Free WiFi, these are the kind of investments that need to be made.

Also, as someone else mentioned, lowering the fares for off-peak services would be a great incentive to get people onto trains.

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 05:26PM

I said lowering off peak rates would be a great incentive as irish rail should be concerned like ryanair with filling seats and if that means making a small loss per seat so be it, it needs to stop[ hauling empty trains as that makes no economic sense, yes its a public service but its also a semi state company which needs to balance its books.

On another note i'm no mathematician but i cannot see that a wifi rollout would cost have as much as making the sligo line a double line even up to longford, plus it is a step which IE needs to take as wifi is basically something a customer expects as standard as aircoach have it so do Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus are trialing as we speak, the double line should have been rolled out in the boom times when instead IE were buying new stock and sending perfectly good engines to inchicore to rot.

bk · 16-07-2012 05:29PM

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Instead of investing in Free WiFi, these are the kind of investments that need to be made.

Well I would disagree with that. Free wifi and similar projects (e.g. updating the website, updating the online booking system, RTPI, power at every seat, etc.) cost a fraction of infrastructure projects, but add a lot of extra value and help make public transport more attractive, keeping and even gaining customers due to it.

They are the low hanging fruit. The free wifi probably cost less then even 10km of extra track.

It is a no brainer to add free wifi and power at every seat. It is the big expensive infrastructure projects that are much harder to justify.

Things like free wifi, RTPI on buses, leap card, etc. are using relatively cheap technology to make the most of the infrastructure we already have. To make public transport more accessible and easier to use.

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 05:47PM

davidlacey wrote: »

<snip>

the double line should have been rolled out in the boom times when instead IE were buying new stock and sending perfectly good engines to inchicore to rot.

The double line to Longford is not as easy as laying a 2nd track beside the existing one! Also the new stock had to be bought and it is very lucky it was bought when it was as there is no way it could be bought now or anytime in the next 40-50years, so at least we have new efficient clean and comfortable DMU's to serve the network instead of a rail network with knackered old filthy dirty coaches with no or poor heating and no proper air conditioning and no wi-fi or power at seats expected to last for another 30 years!

As for the engines they were wrong for the network to start and scrapping storing them is the best decision that could be made.

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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