cycling in a drivers blindspot

connie_c · 30-08-2012 05:29PM #1

Advice for cyclists (including me)Im not preaching here as ill be more careful in future. I'm a cyclist too but was driving today and i passed a guy on a nice specialized. I was doing 40kmph in light trafffic. I looked in my mirrors as i knew I was turning left ahead and the guy was suddenly gone.

I was slowing down at this point and the turn was 400ish metres ahead, id say i was doing 30kph. I was thinking wheres he gone to myself as i put my indicator on so i slowed right down and he came along side my passenger window. I'm driving a 05 primera and it has a big blind spot, this guy was in it for around 1 minute. I'm just posting this to remind people to never cycle in a drivers blind spot.

If you are not a driver the blind spot is just behind the rear door on the left of the car. I was shocked that he was there. I had looked in all my mirrors and over my shoulder and this guy disappeared from my view. If i wasn't a cyclist i probably would have cut this guy off and perhaps hit him. Careful cycling everyone!

DirkVoodoo · 30-08-2012 05:42PM

I was overtaken by someone about 10 metres from a junction (left turn onto Dartmouth road from Leeson street) by some stupid bint today. Good thing I saw it when I did, doubt she saw a thing because by the time she started to make the turn I was in her blindspot.

Dermot Illogical · 30-08-2012 05:50PM

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

cdaly_ · 30-08-2012 07:13PM

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

Be aware of the blind spot and re-position. It's not hard to drift back (or forward) a bit.

Mycroft H · 30-08-2012 07:15PM

veetwin · 30-08-2012 07:24PM

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

Don't know...I'm a noobie cyclist but an experienced driver...maybe the cyclist could either speed up so that the driver can't but see him or slow down so that he is clearly visible in the drivers rear view mirrors. Any cyclist who has any idea what he is doing won't sit in a blind spot no matter what any driver does.

As I see it it's all about self preservation and if a Primera (turning left) and a bike meet there is only going to be one winner.

Bunnyhopper · 30-08-2012 08:06PM

I'd agree with the general advice. I drive and cycle so I do try to avoid sitting in blindspots when I'm cycling and I'm conscious of them when driving.

What surprises me is that the danger of blindspots seems to come as a surprise to some qualified drivers. I remember my driving instructor drilling me to do shoulder checks and not to trust the mirrors alone. The large front pillars on modern cars are also a problem. I was taught to move my head to check around them, particularly for bikes and pedestrians.

I'm sure there are plenty of things about driving that I get wrong: we all have our blindspots (ahem…). I learnt to drive in the UK, so maybe they just emphasize different things from what's taught in Ireland.

Scortho · 30-08-2012 08:13PM

I'm both. When Im driving I despise cyclists pedestrians etc. Holding me up all the time they are.

When Im cycling I hate drivers. Always trying to knock me down.

Thanks OP for highlighting this. Ive never actually even thought about the blind-spots when I'm cycling, thinking that its up to the driver to see me. But that won't do me much good if Ive to sent of in a wooden box. SO I'll definitely look out for them in future.

Zyzz · 30-08-2012 08:17PM

@Fellow cyclists

If you see a turn coming up and you are not sure if they are going to turn or not (ie when the car was built they forgot to add indicators and its clearly not the drivers lack of road sense), drop back in behind the car so they can easily see you in their rear view mirror..

If they turn, you have enough time to make adjustments, if they don't turn you can drop back to the side/cycle lane and continue your cycle!

It sounds basic enough but many people lack this logic when cycling.

Jawgap · 31-08-2012 06:36AM

I thought Hi-viz made you visible in all situations:D

If I'm coming up on a slow moving car I generally try to position myself so I can see the driver in the wing or interior mirrors. If I can't I either speed up or slow down, depending on traffic, until I can - and when in doubt I just let the car go on ahead.

el Bastardo · 31-08-2012 07:11AM

Too many close shaves has taught me to a) assume that drivers may turn without indicating and b) not to assume that drivers check their mirrors and blind spots regularly. In slow moving traffic, I try to stay at the right hand side of the lane (Nearly having been reversed over a few times before I did this).

SetOverSet · 31-08-2012 07:52AM

A short film by TfL on lorry blind spots. Probably been posted before, but nonetheless the amount of cyclists I see going up the inside of HGVs astounds me...

rflynnr · 31-08-2012 07:55AM

One useful rule of thumb I've always used is to make sure I can see the driver's face in the passenger side door mirror: if I can see them, then they should be able to see me (or at least the bike).

seamus · 31-08-2012 07:59AM

While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, I wonder why you didn't check your blindspot. Before you make any manouver, you look over your shoulder. The mirror isn't sufficient.

Granted of course that you weren't turning yet, but I know when a cyclist suddenly disappears from my field of vision, I'm not happy until I locate him again because I know he can't just disappear.

One could equally argue that you drove for a minute knowing that there was a cyclist "somewhere" but without making any attempt to locate him

You're right to a certain extent, but I also find that in moving traffic, a lot of drivers have a tendency to put cyclists in their blind spot - i.e. overtake "just because" and then slow down to the cyclist's pace so that you're now at the rear offside of the vehicle.

Cienciano · 31-08-2012 08:11AM

I was talking to a guy about a week ago, he's been driving for 20 years and he didn't even know what a the blind spot was!

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

Simple, don't cycle in the blind spot, so either get ahead or drop back! Same when you're in a car on a motorway, never drive in someones blindspot.

Wishbone Ash · 31-08-2012 08:20AM

seamus wrote: »

Before you make any manouver, you look over your shoulder. The mirror isn't sufficient

For those who drive vans without rear windows or trucks, they have no choice but to use the mirrors.

While many cyclists avoid going up the nearside of a truck they don't seem to apply the same logic to a panelled van.

route66 · 31-08-2012 08:48AM

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

I drive and cycle. On the bike I assume I'm invisible until I can prove otherwise. To answer your question, the cyclist should have gotten out of the driver's blindspot.

Being righteous can be a shortcut to an early grave.

ciotog · 31-08-2012 08:57AM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

For those who drive vans without rear windows or trucks, they have no choice but to use the mirrors.

While many cyclists avoid going up the nearside of a truck they don't seem to apply the same logic to a panelled van.

Or buses, or mini-buses ... I see it happen everytime I'm out on my bike: A cyclist who decides to head up the inside of a moving or temporarily stopped vehicle. What I find strange is that those who pass on my left to go up the inside of the vehicle ahead of me don't twig there's a reason I haven't moved up the inside (either because of lack of space, an upcoming junction, a right turning vehicle that vehicles are slowly passing on its left or the lights having just changed to green). I'm all for making progress in traffic but situational awareness comes in handy.

irishmotorist · 31-08-2012 09:00AM

seamus wrote: »

While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, I wonder why you didn't check your blindspot. Before you make any manouver, you look over your shoulder. The mirror isn't sufficient.

OP said that they did look over their shoulder (last paragraph of the OP). I think the problem was that there is a large blindspot on a Primera that somebody can hide in and just not be seen by the driver.

irishmotorist · 31-08-2012 09:03AM

rflynnr wrote: »

One useful rule of thumb I've always used is to make sure I can see the driver's face in the passenger side door mirror: if I can see them, then they should be able to see me (or at least the bike).

Totally agree. I usually try to take it a step further and see a driver noticing me. It's not always possible though - but if I haven't been cogged, I'm more defensive.

seamus · 31-08-2012 09:04AM

Cienciano wrote: »

Simple, don't cycle in the blind spot, so either get ahead or drop back! Same when you're in a car on a motorway, never drive in someones blindspot.

Problem is though, as I point out, often if you reduce speed and drop back slightly, then the next car will overtake you and put you in their blindspot. Then you drop back slightly and the next car overtakes you, etc, ad nauseum.
It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen on a fairly constant basis in traffic moving at 30km/h-ish

I guess the key there is to move into the traffic, but that often won't stop people overtaking you.

irishmotorist wrote: »

OP said that they did look over their shoulder (last paragraph of the OP). I think the problem was that there is a large blindspot on a Primera that somebody can hide in and just not be seen by the driver.

Apologies to the OP!

rp · 31-08-2012 09:42AM

Perhaps they should mandate "Cyclops" mirrors for cars with blind-spots?
Should they be allowed on the roads at all?

Idunnowho · 31-08-2012 10:10AM

I would recommend not to rely on a driver checking wing or rear view mirrors. The previous suggestion of being able to see the driver's face in the mirror is a good one but ensuring to make eye contact is better/safer.
Otherwise I'd recommend to either 'hang out' just off the rear left of the car where you can brake in time if the car turns left and you are relatively protected from the cars behind. Or if moving faster than the car be sure to get to at least the passanger window (where youve a much better chance of being seen).

lennymc · 31-08-2012 10:19AM

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

the cyclist should use their superior awareness of their environment to allow for the idiocy of other drivers and adjust their riding accordingly. (IMHO)

I firmly believe that a hell of a lot of accidents can be avoided by the rider being a superior road user and accepting that everyone on the road is an idiot except for you and riding accordingly. Always expected the unexpected.

Just my tuppence

cdaly_ · 31-08-2012 11:48AM

seamus wrote: »

I guess the key there is to move into the traffic, but that often won't stop people overtaking you.

Won't stop them overtaking but they'll know you're there...

Keep_Her_Lit · 31-08-2012 01:02PM

I don't generally change my speed or position in response to overtaking traffic. As pointed out, you could end up spending a lot of time chopping and changing in a busy environment.

Instead, I look out for signs that the driver may be thinking of pulling in or turning left, a change of their speed or positioning being the most obvious (in the absence of a flashing indicator!).

So if I see a vehicle gaining from behind but it then reduces its speed to match mine by the time it draws alongside, I will be on "high alert" looking for an explanation for the driver's change of behaviour. If we're approaching a left turn or if the driver starts to pull in for any reason (e.g. his mate may be standing on the side of the road up ahead waiting for a lift), then I will either drop back or, less often and depending on our speed, relative positions and my level of confidence that the driver can see me, move quickly ahead.

Occasionally, the opposite occurs, whereby the driver increases their speed because they have calculated that by doing so they can "beat you" to the corner and swing into it ahead of you. This is a riskier situation and one in which this type of driver will often have no qualms about "squeezing" you if their judgement turns out to be incorrect and you arrive at the corner together. On one occasion I was forced to take a left turn that I didn't want to take in this type of situation. My policy is not to be "bullied" into changing my speed and position - I will maintain them for as long as possible. But it's vital not to "hold your line" beyond the point at which you know you can avoid a collision if the driver insists on completing the manoeuvre.

The key is to have complete awareness of how the situation is changing from moment to moment and being prepared to change what you're doing in order to ensure your safety. For this, I find a rear view mirror tremendously useful. And no, I did not mention that simply because it's Friday

BostonB · 31-08-2012 01:13PM

As a driver and a cyclists I'm surprised how easy it is to lose sight of a cyclist via blind spots, and I'm especially aware of it.

As a cyclist I try to make eye contact with drivers, and avoid that 3/4 angle beside cars, either draw level with the driver, or take the lane behind them, if its a van/bus etc then increase the gap.

Dermot Illogical · 31-08-2012 03:52PM

connie_c wrote: »

I was slowing down at this point and the turn was 400ish metres ahead, id say i was doing 30kph. I was thinking wheres he gone to myself as i put my indicator on so i slowed right down and he came along side my passenger window. I'm driving a 05 primera and it has a big blind spot, this guy was in it for around 1 minute. I'm just posting this to remind people to never cycle in a drivers blind spot.

I agree that cyclists should be aware that other vehicles have blind spots. In fact, I'd go further and say that they should always assume they haven't been seen in any case.
But...what you've done in this case is fail to complete an overtake of a much slower vehicle over a 400m distance and then attempt to place the responsibility for that on the cyclist.

BostonB · 31-08-2012 04:15PM

Seems to me he shouldn't have overtaken if there wasn't enough distance to get ahead of the cyclist. Instead should have slowed and followed the cyclist to the junction. That said he had slowed and waited to regain a visual on the cyclist. The cyclist was undertaking a left turning vehicle with its indicator on, instead of falling in behind the car turning and taking command of the lane, so no one else goes around him.

You need to put yourself in the right position in the road to command right of way, and by that position make it clear what you are doing. By sitting in the center of the lane, and the cyclist staying left everyones unsure what the other is doing. Also by passing the cyclist you lost visual on him and didn't have enough room to regain it before the junction. But RT66 made this point at the start.

RT66 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you recommend a cyclist do when you've positioned yourself so that they are in your blind spot?
What should the cyclist have done in this case?

connie_c · 31-08-2012 06:47PM

seamus wrote: »

While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, I wonder why you didn't check your blindspot. Before you make any manouver, you look over your shoulder. The mirror isn't sufficient.

Granted of course that you weren't turning yet, but I know when a cyclist suddenly disappears from my field of vision, I'm not happy until I locate him again because I know he can't just disappear.

One could equally argue that you drove for a minute knowing that there was a cyclist "somewhere" but without making any attempt to locate him

You're right to a certain extent, but I also find that in moving traffic, a lot of drivers have a tendency to put cyclists in their blind spot - i.e. overtake "just because" and then slow down to the cyclist's pace so that you're now at the rear offside of the vehicle.

I did look over my shoulder but the cyclist was hidden by the very large panel between my rear passenger door and rear window and was also close enough to my car to be invisible in the mirror. The primera has a large one of these rear panels. My main point was that I'm very conscious of cyclists (because I like to check out what they are riding) but this guy was doing his best to get hit! It reminded me to never cycle there and I thought Id pass on my experience.

http://www.autogush.com/images/nissan-primera-03.jpg look at this image the guy was just behind the petrol cap and was holding his spot there consistently.

connie_c · 31-08-2012 06:49PM

Apologies to the OP!

No Bother!

BostonB · 31-08-2012 08:23PM

The more I think about this the more daft it is. Whats the point in over taking someone be it a car or bike, only to slow down and turn left across them. What choice has the other person got, only to slow and pull behind you, only they can't because you're also slowing down. Which is why they are in your blind spot, you've put them in it, and are keeping them there by slowing down. You then can't pull across out of their way because you've lost sight of them. So completely pointless and potentially dangerous.

Theres a junction on my commute where there's always one driver who will do this. Overtake and immediately turn left. So I pull out into the lane as I come up to it, to prevent exactly this scenario.

Zyzz · 31-08-2012 08:46PM

BostonB wrote: »

The more I think about this the more daft it is. Whats the point in over taking someone be it a car or bike, only to slow down and turn left across them. What choice has the other person got, only to slow and pull behind you, only they can't because you're also slowing down. Which is why they are in your blind spot, you've put them in it, and are keeping them there by slowing down. You then can't pull across out of their way because you've lost sight of them. So completely pointless and potentially dangerous.

Theres a junction on my commute where there's always one driver who will do this. Overtake and immediately turn left. So I pull out into the lane as I come up to it, to prevent exactly this scenario.

It's called the MGIF (must get in front) logic..

:pac:

rp · 01-09-2012 12:30PM

BostonB wrote: »

Theres a junction on my commute where there's always one driver who will do this. Overtake and immediately turn left. So I pull out into the lane as I come up to it, to prevent exactly this scenario.

Yeah, I see this nearly every day, even when I'm at or near the (motor vehicle) speed limit, they still need to pass you out before cutting across (Dublin bus are serial offenders, just before a bus stop). Also, you get the one person passing on the outside like that, whilst another cute driver lashes up the inside (often in a bus lane): one day the twain shall meet, and it'll be messy.

Zyzz · 01-09-2012 01:36PM

rp wrote: »

Yeah, I see this nearly every day, even when I'm at or near the (motor vehicle) speed limit, they still need to pass you out before cutting across (Dublin bus are serial offenders, just before a bus stop). Also, you get the one person passing on the outside like that, whilst another cute driver lashes up the inside (often in a bus lane): one day the twain shall meet, and it'll be messy.

And that is why I am thinking of putting a bet on in Paddy Power of who will run me over first :pac:

Stepping Stone · 03-09-2012 06:39PM

I think that this might be something to keep in mind for anyone cycling around the Turners Cross area in Cork. The city council in their wisdom have changed the cycle lane layout when you are turning right from Turners Cross onto the South Douglas Road. The cycle lane is now on the left side of the right turn lane, so you cycle to the left of the cars but quite close as you both turn.

It would be easy for an accident to happen if someone was in a blind spot or if the rear of the car swung out more than expected.

luapenak · 03-09-2012 07:11PM

connie_c wrote: »

If you are not a driver the blind spot is just behind the rear door on the left of the car. I was shocked that he was there. I had looked in all my mirrors and over my shoulder and this guy disappeared from my view. If i wasn't a cyclist i probably would have cut this guy off and perhaps hit him. Careful cycling everyone!

I'm not sure I get why you couldn't see him. I both drive and cycle quite a lot. If i check my mirrors and look over my shoulder, I will see a cyclist sitting there. Perhaps it's just my car is boxy with a lot of window so the blind spot is reduced.

Ah_Yeah · 09-09-2012 05:19PM

Just chiming in here as I am currently a driver, and will be starting cycling soon (and am petrified of drivers!)

Am I correct in saying that if the cycle lane continues through a junction, that the cyclist has the right of way over the driver?

(Keep in mind, this is technically, not assuming that people don't always pay attention to this, and there are blindspots).

I say this because I actually had a close call with a cyclist when turning left at a junction, as he was in my blindspot (and I check over my shoulder more than once when turning, especially after this close call!)

I think blindspots differ on most cars, I have a Fiesta and my blindspot is much bigger than it was in my Yaris, as the car was a much higher car and I could see more.

When I start cycling, should I drop back and assume the driver won't see me at a junction?

buffalo · 09-09-2012 05:53PM

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

Just chiming in here as I am currently a driver, and will be starting cycling soon (and am petrified of drivers!)

Am I correct in saying that if the cycle lane continues through a junction, that the cyclist has the right of way over the driver?

(Keep in mind, this is technically, not assuming that people don't always pay attention to this, and there are blindspots).

I say this because I actually had a close call with a cyclist when turning left at a junction, as he was in my blindspot (and I check over my shoulder more than once when turning, especially after this close call!)

I think blindspots differ on most cars, I have a Fiesta and my blindspot is much bigger than it was in my Yaris, as the car was a much higher car and I could see more.

When I start cycling, should I drop back and assume the driver won't see me at a junction?

Cyclist has right of way if the car is turning across the cycle lane, but that doesn't really matter in any practical sense. Try to anticipate other road users' actions, and expect the worst. If possible, let somebody know when they've done something stupid/illegal, but don't take it personally.

carthoris · 09-09-2012 06:03PM

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that if the cycle lane continues through a junction, that the cyclist has the right of way over the driver?

I would be inclined to say that yes the cyclist has the right of way over the driver. Consider it as a bus lane or another car lane and ask yourself the same question. Also considering it as a car lane or bus lane should show you how to deal with the situation; if you want to go left, indicate left and move into the lane on the left - this will block someone from moving up the inside of you but this is also for their own good. And this is why mandatory cycle lanes are so awful.

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

When I start cycling, should I drop back and assume the driver won't see me at a junction?

If traffic is stopped then don't put yourself in the the position where a driver will not see you; pass the traffic on the right, it will give you more options. If there is a junction coming up on the right hand side then be very wary that a car may turn right without indication.

If you are on the left and you think that someone is about to turn across you then it is best to play it safe and drop back.

BostonB · 09-09-2012 07:02PM

carthoris wrote: »

...pass the traffic on the right, it will give you more options. If there is a junction coming up on the right hand side then be very wary that a car may turn right without indication....

I would be careful going on the right, drivers aren't expecting you there and may pull out suddenly do give another cyclist more room.

I tend to try be like a car, take my place in line with the cars. So they can't get past me, until I'm past the junction. But you have to keep pace with the traffic, you shouldn't pull in front of a car and go a snails pace.

cycling in a drivers blindspot

Comments