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Swiss love affair with rail turns sour

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Comments

  • #2
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    The private bus industry would hope so!


  • #3
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21294241

    Perhaps some who hanker after Swiss railways might not be so enthusiastic after all!!
    Their revenue protection service sounds very like the irish rail revenue protection unit:D and 2million a month is what Irish rail should be making off their fare dodgers.


  • #4
    Talk to the hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Talk to the hand


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Their revenue protection service sounds very like the irish rail revenue protection unit:D and 2million a month is what Irish rail should be making off their fare dodgers.

    Isn't the Internet a wonderful invention? A global tool for sharing information and knowledge among humankind and we use it to enable some gobdaw to mount his five year axe grind against IE.

    I'll just make the observation that a high post count neither implies intelligence or the correctness of those posts.


  • #5
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    lxflyer wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21294241

    Perhaps some who hanker after Swiss railways might not be so enthusiastic after all!!

    Slow news day on the BBC, it's more the sort of rubbish you would expect in the chip wrapper Sunday Indo or Today FM. :rolleyes:


  • #6
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,615 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think it's a valid story JD - it's from "From Our Own Correspondent" which is all about correspondents filing reports about different aspects of life around the world.


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  • #7
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Talk to the hand wrote: »
    Isn't the Internet a wonderful invention? A global tool for sharing information and knowledge among humankind and we use it to enable some gobdaw to mount his five year axe grind against IE.

    I'll just make the observation that a high post count neither implies intelligence or the correctness of those posts.

    Banned for a week for personal abuse.

    Edit: I'll change it to a day given the poster is new.


  • #8
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    Talk to the hand wrote: »
    Isn't the Internet a wonderful invention? A global tool for sharing information and knowledge among humankind and we use it to enable some gobdaw to mount his five year axe grind against IE.

    I'll just make the observation that a high post count neither implies intelligence or the correctness of those posts.

    Meanwhile, back at the Cooler..



  • #9
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    monument wrote: »
    Banned for a week for personal abuse.

    Edit: I'll change it to a day given the poster is new.

    And I'd just like to extend the Hand of Friendship to for the Op to talk to during his/her period in the cooler.....;)

    I'm always struggling for accurate descriptives these days,but the OP has just opened a floodgate of memories....Gobdaw...classic Irish term too,which I had presumed long forgotten....:)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #10
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Some of them Swiss Railways folk are on a power trip. Unfortunate that the Swiss Railways are resorting to this kind of rubbish


  • #11
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Some of them Swiss Railways folk are on a power trip. Unfortunate that the Swiss Railways are resorting to this kind of rubbish

    I doubt that,unfortunately for us their priorities are differently arranged.....our first priority is always "The Excuse",which is their last...;)

    If,as reported, it's netting Swiss Railways $2 Million per month,then this policy is exactly the type of Rubbish Irish Rail and it's subsidiaries urgently require ;) !!


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #12
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    If Irish Rail started that behaviour the usual suspects would be on here retailing anecdotes of how they observed someone being grilled by a checker and that it was all wrong and why were they poked out because their ticket was a certain colour and anyway wouldn't someone please think of the children and go after real fare dodgers ?

    (You get the gist).

    It is interesting that the Swiss are able to extract such large sums - seems to imply that there was large scale laxness.


  • #13
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The main difference between the Swiss way of fining people and the Irish way is that the Swiss have an absolute zero tolerance policy so if a machine is broken and cant stamp your ticket or wont take cash etc you must find another machine or you WILL be fined.

    Here in more tolerant Ireland the Irish rail conditions of carriage allow you to travel and pay at your destination if the booking office is closed or unmanned.


  • #14
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The main difference between the Swiss way of fining people and the Irish way is that the Swiss have an absolute zero tolerance policy so if a machine is broken and cant stamp your ticket or wont take cash etc you must find another machine or you WILL be fined.

    Here in more tolerant Ireland the Irish rail conditions of carriage allow you to travel and pay at your destination if the booking office is closed or unmanned.

    Oh God,will it ever end....:confused:

    It all began with the decision to abolish ticket sales on trains, though ticket collectors stay. In theory, this should work - you can buy tickets from a machine on the platform, online, or by smartphone. .

    What did the Swiss abolish....?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #15
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,567 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Switzerland in efficient collection of fines shocker...

    Net revenue: 8022- SUBSIDY 2034 ( / 30 *17 ) 17K PASSENGER KM, 13K TON FREIGHT KM = 3393m of passenger related income roughly, fines of 1.8 x 12 = 21.6 or .006% of passenger income. Tiny to the point of irrelevance. Or 750 people per day: 274k of 347m per year still tiny to the point or irrelevance in the over all scheme of things. Someone making a story out of nothing more than a low to normal level of fines for people taking chances or taking the piss

    2m USD is 1.8 CHF

    As a percent of income IE probably do better


  • #16
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    Oh God,will it ever end....:confused:

    What did the Swiss abolish....?

    Will what never end? He's saying the Irish system is better because it allows for a broken TVM or a closed ticket office.

    And the Swiss abolish ticket sales on trains -- that's in the article and his post.

    Can Foggy say anything without being jumped on? It's really getting tiring.


  • #17
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,567 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    monument wrote: »
    Will what never end? He's saying the Irish system is better because it allows for a broken TVM or a closed ticket office.
    no it was a slight about the basic inability of the Irish to enforce or adhere to laws.
    Can Foggy say anything without being jumped on? It's really getting tiring.

    of course he can, plenty of what he says is valid and thought out.

    It's getting tiring because mods never ever ever act on the ridiculous stuff he says despite posts being reported and posters are sick of it. There is a very strong impression that he is a protected poster IMO.

    Clearly other posters are fed up: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056873261
    but the admins there just go and tell the mods here to deal with it, which they don't and the cycle continues.


  • #18
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Robustly rebutting erroneous, inaccurate, offensive or vicious comments shouldn't be confused with "jumping on".

    The strong expression of an opposing view shouldn't be viewed as trolling.


  • #19
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,315 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    parsi wrote: »
    It is interesting that the Swiss are able to extract such large sums
    Fines would be ignored here, someone would organize a protest march, and also best of luck fining people who are only on the dole system and none other.


  • #20
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It's getting tiring because mods never ever ever act on the ridiculous stuff he says despite posts being reported and posters are sick of it. There is a very strong impression that he is a protected poster IMO.

    Clearly other posters are fed up: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056873261
    but the admins there just go and tell the mods here to deal with it, which they don't and the cycle continues.

    The problem is most of what is reported is just his strongly held view and by the time we do get to look at threads we end up havering to act on clearer charter breaking by others or give a general warning.

    He's not a protected poster. Many who report him just have strange views of what the rules are here.

    Mod: now, back on topic please!


  • #21
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    the_syco wrote: »
    Fines would be ignored here, someone would organize a protest march, and also best of luck fining people who are only on the dole system and none other.

    You're probably right - the only folk who'd pay fines would be those who don't have someone looking out for them and excusing their behaviour in the first place.

    Of course the Swiss requirement to carry ID does help to make it harder to give a fake name to evade prosecution.


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  • #22
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    monument wrote: »
    The problem is most of what is reported is just his strongly held view and by the time we do get to look at threads we end up havering to act on clearer charter breaking by others or give a general warning.

    He's not a protected poster. Many who report him just have strange views of what the rules are here.

    Mod: now, back on topic please!

    Boards.ie royalty resting, yesterday:



  • #23
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Their revenue protection service sounds very like the irish rail revenue protection unit:D and 2million a month is what Irish rail should be making off their fare dodgers.

    That would be great for Irish Rail, but maybe the Travelling public on Irish Rail are more honest than their Swiss counterparts :). 2 million a month sounds very high though and a bit of give and take should be given as not to alienate those like the person who wrote that article. A paying passenger is better than a ex-passenger or some revenue is better than no revenue .


  • #24
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    no it was a slight about the basic inability of the Irish to enforce or adhere to laws.

    No it was praise of the system which Irish Rail use which allows passengers buy a ticket at their destination when the booking office is closed or unmanned temporarily. this policy is not always followed by RPU staff though who appear ignorant of the terms and conditions and the conditions of carriage.

    Clearly other posters are fed up: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056873261
    but the admins there just go and tell the mods here to deal with it, which they don't and the cycle continues.

    Has that poster followed the advice given by an admin in that thread?


  • #25
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    No it was praise of the system which Irish Rail use which allows passengers buy a ticket at their destination when the booking office is closed or unmanned temporarily. this policy is not always followed by RPU staff though who appear ignorant of the terms and conditions and the conditions of carriage.




    Has that poster followed the advice given by an admin in that thread?
    The RPU staff are fully aware of the terms and conditions but its not always followed by passengers either who are well aware of them and try a fast one so to speak and then post in places like here when they are caught.


  • #26
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The RPU staff are fully aware of the terms and conditions but its not always followed by passengers either who are well aware of them and try a fast one so to speak and then post in places like here when they are caught.
    Have you got evidence(apart from canteen gossip) of these passengers "pulling fast ones"??

    Surely if a passenger tells a ticket agent or RPU agent that they boarded at Broombridge and the staff have no way to dis-prove this the passenger must be allowed pay the fare at the destination and should not be fined? Or if a booking office in Sallins or some other small halt is not open as early as it should be, or the staff there are on the toilet for a long time should the passenger be penalised for being unable to buy a ticket before travelling?


  • #27
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Have you got evidence(apart from canteen gossip) of these passengers "pulling fast ones"??

    This is boards. It has been established that neither actual nor anecdotal evidence is required for any allegation no matter how wild.

    Makey-uppy appears to be fully acceptable.

    I don't travel as frequently on public transport as other boardsies but even I have seen passengers pulling fast ones - happening to have "no money" for a ticket, refusing to show ID to prove that they are really the holder of the free pass etc.


  • #28
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,263 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    monument wrote: »
    The problem is most of what is reported is just his strongly held view and by the time we do get to look at threads we end up havering to act on clearer charter breaking by others or give a general warning.

    He's not a protected poster. Many who report him just have strange views of what the rules are here.

    Mod: now, back on topic please!

    Strongly held view implies some sort of personal, learnt or moral stances which has some basis. It surely can't include shaggy dog stories, vendettas, ill formed opinions, hyperbole and plain old lies. These are let go unchallenged and unvouched while those who take issue are censored and occasionally banned. It's hard to believe that he isn't protected.


  • #29
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Have you got evidence(apart from canteen gossip) of these passengers "pulling fast ones"??

    Surely if a passenger tells a ticket agent or RPU agent that they boarded at Broombridge and the staff have no way to dis-prove this the passenger must be allowed pay the fare at the destination and should not be fined? Or if a booking office in Sallins or some other small halt is not open as early as it should be, or the staff there are on the toilet for a long time should the passenger be penalised for being unable to buy a ticket before travelling?

    Im not disagreeing with you Foggy.

    But are you seriously telling us that there arent passengers out there that dont try and pull a fast one and you are not convinced until you get evidence? It happens everyday day and one or two of the offenders have posted about it on here a while ago and im sure they wont be the last.
    Whats with this canteen gossip that you keep mentioning in?


  • #30
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,315 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Look lads, once foggy_lad stays between the lines, he can't be infracted or banned. The fun thing about CT's are that most of the companies don't exist, and if it doesn't exist, it can't sue. If you have a grievence against him, please bring it to someone who gives a sh|t; Feedback, Helpdesk, Dispute Resolution, etc, but not here.

    =-=

    The IrishRail staff know about the "I got on at Broombridge" trick, so usually ask what time they got the train at Broombridge, and other simple questions, and this will catch the majority of people out. Most of the stations are set up to try to stop people jumping the barriers, and most of them work.

    The LUAS, on the otherhand, is f**ked because of its setup, and its setup is marked as one of its advantages; the ability to walk on with ease.


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  • #31
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    monument wrote: »
    Will what never end? He's saying the Irish system is better because it allows for a broken TVM or a closed ticket office.

    And the Swiss abolish ticket sales on trains -- that's in the article and his post.

    Can Foggy say anything without being jumped on? It's really getting tiring.

    Oh dear,just for clarity...my invocation of Deity was in response to this......
    Foggy_Lad: The main difference between the Swiss way of fining people and the Irish way is that the Swiss have an absolute zero tolerance policy so if a machine is broken and cant stamp your ticket or wont take cash etc you must find another machine or you WILL be fined.

    Here in more tolerant Ireland the Irish rail conditions of carriage allow you to travel and pay at your destination if the booking office is closed or unmanned.

    The point is that Swiss Railways did NOT have any Zero Tolerance policy at all.

    They operated pretty much the same policy (much vilified by Foggy_Lad) as Irish Rail continue to do.
    The main difference being that SBB customers had a wider choice of payment means than ourselves.

    The point behind the BBC Correspondent's piece was the decision by Swiss Railways to end this "facility" was'nt taken on a whim but due to unsustainable revenue leakage...

    http://theantipodeanblog.blogspot.ie/2011/12/life-lesson-36-swiss-grift.html


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #32
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    AlekSmart -- sorry about that! My mistake.

    Anybody who quoted me saying back on topic and then proceeded to talk clearly off topic about moderation, or perceived lack of it, got a warning.

    Please note:

    When a mod says back on topic, don't start discussing something clearly off-topic.

    As a rule: Avoid discussing moderation in threads: Please report, PM the mod, and then a c-mod, and -- if you're not happy -- only then can you complain to an admin via the Help Desk.


  • #33
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,833 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The point is that Swiss Railways did NOT have any Zero Tolerance policy at all.
    I've lived here for several years now & in my experience SBB absolutely do operate a Zero Tolerance policy. The change is that while you used to be able to purchase your ticket on board on some services, now the passenger is entirely responsible for ensuring that they are in possession of a valid ticket when they board the train.


  • #34
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    I've lived here for several years now & in my experience SBB absolutely do operate a Zero Tolerance policy. The change is that while you used to be able to purchase your ticket on board on some services, now the passenger is entirely responsible for ensuring that they are in possession of a valid ticket when they board the train.

    My Bad,The Hill Billy,It's like walking on eggshells round here now....so my phraseology was'nt sufficiently clear.

    I was'nt referring to a Zero-Tolerance policy per-se,but rather that SBB had the same buy-on-board policy as Irish Rail,but has decided to dispense totally with this in favour of absolute Ticketing.

    However,when Irish-Rail do enforce anything like a Zero-Tolerance policy,we are immediately deluged with examples of why exceptions have to be made for poor people,students,polar explorers,captains of industry etc etc.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #35
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    This is boards. It has been established that neither actual nor anecdotal evidence is required for any allegation no matter how wild.

    Makey-uppy appears to be fully acceptable.

    I don't travel as frequently on public transport as other boardsies but even I have seen passengers pulling fast ones - happening to have "no money" for a ticket, refusing to show ID to prove that they are really the holder of the free pass etc.
    You should know by now that id is not required to be shown by any holder of a free travel pass, all that is required and more importantly all that transport staff are allowed ask for is a sample of the pass-holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass.


  • #36
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Im not disagreeing with you Foggy.

    But are you seriously telling us that there arent passengers out there that dont try and pull a fast one and you are not convinced until you get evidence? It happens everyday day and one or two of the offenders have posted about it on here a while ago and im sure they wont be the last.
    Whats with this canteen gossip that you keep mentioning in?

    Of course there are passengers who pull a fast one, i witnessed one such person some time ago on the luas who was removed from the tram at the red cow stop and overheard the staff explaining to her how they had her on camera every day over a month boarding trams after "tagging on" but they could prove she didn't tag on with any ticket.

    What Irish Rail are doing is telling passengers they may pay at the destination if Irish Rail fail to sell them a ticket or fail to validate their ticket at their starting station but then when they get to the destination and approach the ticket checker to buy a ticket they get called liars by staff who treat them as if they are defrauding the company.


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  • #37
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    My Bad,The Hill Billy,It's like walking on eggshells round here now....so my phraseology was'nt sufficiently clear.

    I was'nt referring to a Zero-Tolerance policy per-se,but rather that SBB had the same buy-on-board policy as Irish Rail,but has decided to dispense totally with this in favour of absolute Ticketing.

    However,when Irish-Rail do enforce anything like a Zero-Tolerance policy,we are immediately deluged with examples of why exceptions have to be made for poor people,students,polar explorers,captains of industry etc etc.
    Obviously the Swiss have changed their conditions of carriage/ bye-laws etc to enable them to enforce their new policy of "absolute" ticketing where even if your credit card payment goes through a few minutes after the train leaves the station you are deemed to be travelling without a valid ticket and fined or if a machine to validate or date your ticket is broken or not working you must not board the train or you will be fined.

    The Irish Rail conditions of carriage allow for passengers to pay at their destination when the company cant sell them a ticket at their station, this can't be changed by just telling staff to fine all persons without tickets even if their station is unmanned and has no ticket machines or any other way for them to buy or even validate a ticket. If it is to be changed it will require changes to the company bye-laws as well as changes to the law


  • #38
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You should know by now that id is not required to be shown by any holder of a free travel pass, all that is required and more importantly all that transport staff are allowed ask for is a sample of the pass-holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

    Some passes require accompanying photo ID.

    Plenty Golden Ticket holders refuse to properly present their pass less alone deign to provide a sample sig - after all why should they have to when on the way to visit Anto in prison ?

    Does anyone have any info on how the Swiss provide concessionary fares ?


  • #39
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Of course there are passengers who pull a fast one, i witnessed one such person some time ago on the luas who was removed from the tram at the red cow stop and overheard the staff explaining to her how they had her on camera every day over a month boarding trams after "tagging on" but they could prove she didn't tag on with any ticket.

    What Irish Rail are doing is telling passengers they may pay at the destination if Irish Rail fail to sell them a ticket or fail to validate their ticket at their starting station but then when they get to the destination and approach the ticket checker to buy a ticket they get called liars by staff who treat them as if they are defrauding the company.

    who got called a liar? Have you witnessed this?.if a booking office is closed and the tvm's are not working then you are allowed to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. You know this already. People get fined when they try and abuse this like whats been posted on here many times before and you are well aware of it and its these that are defrauding the company .


  • #40
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You should know by now that id is not required to be shown by any holder of a free travel pass, all that is required and more importantly all that transport staff are allowed ask for is a sample of the pass-holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass.

    The id is the pass itself with the picture. A lot of stations wont issue a ticket without the picture.


  • #41
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The id is the pass itself with the picture. A lot of stations wont issue a ticket without the picture.

    The photopass is only required if the passholder lives in thw cities of Dublin cork limerick Galway or Waterford. If a person from mallow was asked to show photo id the staff member is overstepping their authority.


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  • #42
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    its up to the pass holder to prove they are the owner of the pass when asked otherwise anyone could use it. Anyway,it has nothing to do with swiss railway.


  • #43
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    its up to the pass holder to prove they are the owner of the pass when asked otherwise anyone could use it. Anyway,it has nothing to do with swiss railway.
    Having the pass is taken as proof of entitlement when combined with a sample of the users signature, How do authorities in other countries prove you are the person on the ID card you are obliged to carry? The picture may be years old and not look like you any more but most id cards will have the users signature!

    If you are fined on a Swiss train you will be asked for your ID card to prove who you are but only the police can request to see your ID card without any reason, here in Ireland no authority can insist on you carrying around proof of who you are. Remember the travel pass is proof of the holders eligibity to free travel and not an identity card.

    If the Swiss had no national identity card there would be more people there pulling fast ones giving wrong names etc when they get fined.


  • #44
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The id is the pass itself with the picture. A lot of stations wont issue a ticket without the picture.

    Sigh...I had a gentleman this morning who became most irate when I told him that his DSP Photo-ID was not a Free Travel Pass.....

    Nonsense,sez he,I use it all the time,never heard of this before etc etc etc...

    Even after I asked him to read the writing on the back of the card,which states clearly that the card is NOT vaild on its own for Free Travel etc etc...my man shrugged it all off as me being on a power trip...:rolleyes:

    Laughably,he was from a provincial address,so he did'nt require ID anyway,but he was convinced I was targeting him as part of some anti-elderly conspiracy.

    I managed to extract €1.65 from him,but it was the hardest bit of fare collection I've had in ages...

    His departing retort was that he was going to write to "The CIE" pointing out how their Drivers did'nt know their jobs....

    For a split-second,I did wonder if he and I had met (virtually) before......;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #45
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    its up to the pass holder to prove they are the owner of the pass when asked otherwise anyone could use it. Anyway,it has nothing to do with swiss railway.

    Quite an interesting overview of Swiss Public Transport thinking here....

    http://www.uitpgeneva2013.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Facts%26Arguments_Swiss_PT_2010_EN.pdf

    Not quite how we do things however......:rolleyes:

    Also a little filler on EU Public Transport "Concessionary Travel" from 2000

    http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/IntOrg/ecmt/accessibility/pdf/TPH200009rev1e.pdf


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #46
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Sigh...I had a gentleman this morning who became most irate when I told him that his DSP Photo-ID was not a Free Travel Pass.....

    Nonsense,sez he,I use it all the time,never heard of this before etc etc etc...

    Even after I asked him to read the writing on the back of the card,which states clearly that the card is NOT vaild on its own for Free Travel etc etc...my man shrugged it all off as me being on a power trip...:rolleyes:

    Laughably,he was from a provincial address,so he did'nt require ID anyway,but he was convinced I was targeting him as part of some anti-elderly conspiracy.

    I managed to extract €1.65 from him,but it was the hardest bit of fare collection I've had in ages...

    His departing retort was that he was going to write to "The CIE" pointing out how their Drivers did'nt know their jobs....

    This really has nothing to do with free travel passes as the gentleman did not have a pass so should not have been allowed travel without paying the correct fare, what I have always stated about such things though is that staff should use a certain amount of "cop-on" if it is available to them and should not be turning away those who quite obviously do possess an entitlement to free travel. If transport companies wish to apply a zero tolerance stance then it should be across the board and operated by ALL employees, but such behaviour would destroy any good will that most customers have towards front line transport staff, Nobody says "Dublin bus stopped me getting on the bus" but they say "the effin' driver stopped me".

    All this fraudulent behaviour stems directly from the laid back attitude of all Irish people to rules, laws, policies etc and people in work having a "that'll do" attitude towards their employment.

    People in Europe have a very different social and work ethic which possibly shows up with the new policy of the Swiss rail company
    For a split-second,I did wonder if he and I had met (virtually) before......;)
    really? care to expand?


  • #47
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    foggy_lad wrote: »

    This really has nothing to do with free travel passes as the gentleman did not have a pass so should not have been allowed travel without paying the correct fare, what I have always stated about such things though is that staff should use a certain amount of "cop-on" if it is available to them and should not be turning away those who quite obviously do possess an entitlement to free travel. If transport companies wish to apply a zero tolerance stance then it should be across the board and operated by ALL employees, but such behaviour would destroy any good will that most customers have towards front line transport staff, Nobody says "Dublin bus stopped me getting on the bus" but they say "the effin' driver stopped me".

    All this fraudulent behaviour stems directly from the laid back attitude of all Irish people to rules, laws, policies etc and people in work having a "that'll do" attitude towards their employment.

    People in Europe have a very different social and work ethic which possibly shows up with the new policy of the Swiss rail company

    really? care to expand?

    LOL. "People in Europe" have been subject to mass invasions of trains by plain clothes inspectors who don't take any excuse from those who don't have a ticket. Witnessed a girl being hauled off an S-Bahn in Berlin last weekend for not having a ticket . She was then surrounded on the platform by three inspectors and two railway security dudes.

    Of course from what I can see its much more cut and dried over there - you pay for your ticket . No free passes to allow people ramble around buying and selling or visiting relations in the clink .

    By the same token free travel is an extremely valuable benefit and if someone wants to benefit from it then carrying the relevant documentation isn't all that big an ask.

    I love the suggestion that free passes shouldn't be checked as that would destroy the goodwill of the beneficiaries of such largesse.

    Perhaps paying customers should be excused as well in order to generate goodwill.


  • #48
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    This really has nothing to do with free travel passes as the gentleman did not have a pass so should not have been allowed travel without paying the correct fare, what I have always stated about such things though is that staff should use a certain amount of "cop-on" if it is available to them and should not be turning away those who quite obviously do possess an entitlement to free travel. If transport companies wish to apply a zero tolerance stance then it should be across the board and operated by ALL employees, but such behaviour would destroy any good will that most customers have towards front line transport staff, Nobody says "Dublin bus stopped me getting on the bus" but they say "the effin' driver stopped me".

    All this fraudulent behaviour stems directly from the laid back attitude of all Irish people to rules, laws, policies etc and people in work having a "that'll do" attitude towards their employment.

    People in Europe have a very different social and work ethic which possibly shows up with the new policy of the Swiss rail company

    really? care to expand?

    Are you for it or agin it Foggy..?

    It's sometimes difficult to know what side of the Public Transport fence you are on,as there are so many contradictions in your response(s).

    You have in the past railed against Irish Rail Staff for applying the letter of the (Free Travel Scheme) law,and although you continually refer to Continental Zero Tolerance practices,you tend to append a caveat to these suggestions,such as you call for a "certain amount" of"cop-on" from staff (always from the Staff mind you,as the various other individuals appear to have a special dispensation on the same "Cop-On" )

    I'm also not totally in agreement on the "People in Europe" being all that different to ourselves in terms of "Social and Work Ethics"....the very fact that SBB is taking in so much in new Penalty Fare revenue tends to show otherwise.

    What "People in Europe" are far more familiar with is the concept of actually having to pay a fare in the first place,something which really does go against our native grain to a significant extent..

    Ireland,Land of the Free (Pass) and Home of the Broke !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #49
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    parsi wrote: »
    LOL. "People in Europe" have been subject to mass invasions of trains by plain clothes inspectors who don't take any excuse from those who don't have a ticket. Witnessed a girl being hauled off an S-Bahn in Berlin last weekend for not having a ticket . She was then surrounded on the platform by three inspectors and two railway security dudes.
    I have seen people here dragged off a tram and then held on the ground by 4 security people while they waited for the Gardai, similar checks take place here in Ireland mostly in Dublin though, Bus Éireann inspectors in Kildare and Carlow seem to stay within the environs of the county council offices in Naas where i have seen numerous checks done on almost empty Naas-Newbridge shuttle buses while overtaken by full commuter buses
    Of course from what I can see its much more cut and dried over there - you pay for your ticket . No free passes to allow people ramble around buying and selling or visiting relations in the clink.
    You need to have your eyes tested if all you see are free travel holders rambling around buying and selling and visiting their relations in prison!
    By the same token free travel is an extremely valuable benefit and if someone wants to benefit from it then carrying the relevant documentation isn't all that big an ask.
    The only relevant documentation is the actual pass.
    I love the suggestion that free passes shouldn't be checked as that would destroy the goodwill of the beneficiaries of such largesse.

    Perhaps paying customers should be excused as well in order to generate goodwill.
    My suggestion has always been that all pass holders should be made show their passes properly and the passes should be properly examined by transport staff but because of corporate laziness within the CIE group this has never really happened or has been watered down in the last number of years. suspect passes should be taken by the staff members but they must have good reason for taking a pass which might turn out to be valid and legitimately held.

    As I already stated European countries deal with these things differently but those countries are not Ireland. The Swiss pay for their public transport in different ways to here and now they are policing their railways in a different way by removing all on board ticket sales.


    If anyone wants to further discuss the free travel scheme it might be an idea to do so in a new thread.


  • #50
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Are you for it or agin it Foggy..?

    It's sometimes difficult to know what side of the Public Transport fence you are on,as there are so many contradictions in your response(s).

    You have in the past railed against Irish Rail Staff for applying the letter of the (Free Travel Scheme) law,and although you continually refer to Continental Zero Tolerance practices,you tend to append a caveat to these suggestions,such as you call for a "certain amount" of"cop-on" from staff (always from the Staff mind you,as the various other individuals appear to have a special dispensation on the same "Cop-On" )

    I'm also not totally in agreement on the "People in Europe" being all that different to ourselves in terms of "Social and Work Ethics"....the very fact that SBB is taking in so much in new Penalty Fare revenue tends to show otherwise.

    What "People in Europe" are far more familiar with is the concept of actually having to pay a fare in the first place,something which really does go against our native grain to a significant extent..

    Ireland,Land of the Free (Pass) and Home of the Broke !
    I suppose the easy answer is that I am for a zero tolerance approach but regarding my "cop-on" caveat I have to ask if you as a Dublin Bus driver has a regular very elderly passenger or one with very obvious physical and mental disabilities try to board with just the photopass will you stop them and insist on them paying even though you have seen them every day for years boarding with a free travel pass?

    I have never railed against any staff for doing their jobs, but if a staff member insists on photo id from a pass holder or they will confiscate their pass then I say that is wrong because they have overstepped their authority.

    As you will know I have for such a long time stated a very easy and almost free way to eliminate fraud is to change the rules of the scheme obliging all pass holders to carry a passport or Gardai age card.


  • #51
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi



    You need to have your eyes tested if all you see are free travel holders rambling around buying and selling and visiting their relations in prison

    Its amazing really what people notice on their travels.

    Some people see imaginary criminals peering through peepholes, some see folk taking the system for a ride.


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