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Trying to move to subscription free tv

  • 13-03-2013 05:53PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    I recently decided I want to move away from my current one room Sky+ system to a multi room subscription free system.
    Unfortunately I came at this rather uneducated. So I have done a good but of reading trying to figure it all out
    The following post basically summarises what I think I have found out and leaves a few outstanding questions at the end.
    If any person who understands these things might care to confirm or deny these notes, it would really appreciate it :)


    1) Free Irish TV channels are available via aerial (Saorview) and via satelite (Saorsat) whereas UK TV is available only via satelite, Freeview (now and next EPG data attached) or Freesat (UK packaged channels with 7-day EPG data attached)
    2) To view any of the above whether the signal is accessed through aerial or satelite requires a decoder. DVB-S or DVB-S2 for satelite signals and DVB-T for aerial signals.
    3) If I would like to gain access to both Irish and UK channels using a single decoder box (so as to not have to change sources on my television and use multiple remotes/separate EPGs etc) then I have 4 choices:
    3a) Freesat and Saorsat - This is taking signals from 2 different satellites and while in theory this could be done with a single largish dish aimed between the 2, that would lower the signal quality. It would probably be better having 2 dishes. Either way the only real advantage to accessing a Freesat signal is to gain access to the Freesat EPG data and that requires a Freesat box which necessarily seems to mean that Saorsat channels are accessed separately via a different EPG. Hence probably not the best option.
    3b) Freesat and Saorview - This would mean using a dish for Freesat and an aerial for Saorview but again...the only real advantage to accessing a Freesat signal is to gain access to the Freesat EPG data and that requires a Freesat box which will necessarily seems to mean that Saorsat channels are accesses seaprately via a different EPG. Hence probably not the best option.
    3c) Freeview and Saorsat - This again would probably require 2 dishes as they are on 2 diff satelites at 9E and 28E and offers no advantage over the last option below
    3d) Freeview and Saorview - This is the most natural option and will require a dish (can use existing Sky dish aimed as is) and a new aerial for the Saorview signal.
    So picking option 3d...
    4) Combining Freeview channels and Saorview channels in a single box requires whats know as a Combobox for each tv. It must include a DVB-S and a DVB-T connection/decoder. In fact if I want to record one satelite channel while watching another satelite channel I would need a box with 2 DVB-S connections/decoders. There are many on the market, and generally they do present a single EPG for Irish and Uk channels, however:
    * The Freeview signal does not include 7 day EPG data and hence the EPG will generally only includes now and next data for Uk channels and 7 days Irish channels only
    * The EPG and related screens are generally much poorer than the Sky equivalent, where in many models the EPG is presented on a channel by channel basis unlike Sky's nice planner view with one row per channel and time on the X-axis.
    5) To include a 7 day EPG for both UK and Irish channels in a single EPG on a single machine, requires someone to code some firmware which accesses the data from 2 different sources in 2 different formats and merge them and this is just not cost effective for anyone to do for the small Irish market.
    6) However, there are also boxes which are much more programmable with OS and software rather than fixed firmware. These use a Linux OS and can generally achieve more than is offered in an out of the box product. To achieve what I want I would require a Linux based box with 2 DVB-S connection/decoders and 1 DVB-T connection/decoder. The following 4 boxes seem to all offer this:
    * Amiko Alien 2 Triple Tuner
    * Golden Media Spark Triplex
    * Fulan ST 7162 HD Satellite Receiver
    * Vu+ Duo2
    7) At this point I am getting a little more uncertain of my understanding so the following is more guesswork/uncertainties:
    * I believe all these boxes can/do run the Enigma 2 install of Linux which seems to be the thing to have, but some of them have a dual boot into something called Spark (not sure if that is an alternate OS or what it is)
    * I guess that from a user experience point of view it may not be that important which box I get cos the screens functionality is determined by the OS and software which presumably could be installed on any of them?
    * I have no idea what software I would actually need and if it generally comes preinstalled on these boxes.
    * I see mention of MGCam, OSCam and CCCam but have no idea what these are
    * What I'd really like to do is see one of these boxes preinstalled with everything in a demo showroom and buy one like that OR get the box with a nice book that explains everything I don't know and allows me to do it - but this is unlikly to occur.
    * The best I can hope for is to take a gamble, buy one of these boxes, see what it does and go trawling the message boards for a way to fix whatever I don't like.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,978 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Just one quick point before answering any of your questions, Freeview is the UK digital terrestrial tv service equivalent to our Saorview DTT service via an aerial. If you live near the NI border or in the SE of the country you may be able to receive the Freeview channels from a NI or Wales transmitter with the correct aerial.

    The free UK channels from the Astra satellite received with a non-Freesat receiver are referred to as FTA satellite channels (now & next info, etc).

    Are any of the TVs in the house capable of receiving the Saorview signal without a separate Saorview receiver? As analogue TVs are replaced with Saorview capable TVs a separate Saorview STB will not be required and a standard aerial and simple distribution system will be cheaper and more flexible option in the long run.

    Regarding Saorsat this is only recommended if you cannot receive Saorview with an aerial - http://www.saorview.ie/about-saorview/saorsat/, also Saorsat does not and may never carry TV3 and 3e.

    List of Saorview approved combi receivers - http://www.saorview.ie/product/saorview-combi-options/

    To go multiroom you will require an aerial feed with a distribution amp splitting the feed to each TV point and a separate feed from the satallite dish to each satellite receiver (2 feeds if you require recording capability).

    I would be unable to give you any advice on Linux based receivers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭swoofer


    you missed 3 important bits of info. your location, have you got an aerial that used to pick up tv3 and how much you want to spend.

    gbc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Thank you very much for the feedback already

    And to answer a few missing bits of info:
    1) I am based in Dundrum, Dublin 14
    2) I don't think I have any aerial in the house. I currently have everything through a sky dish. There is a UPC connection box in the living from previous owner and there does appear to be old coaxial sockets in a few rooms, which I assumed were for old analogue cable and are usefess to me. No sign of an aerial on the roof/chimney as far as I can see
    3) I don't have a specific price limit. I'd be more inclined to save/phase the purchases than compromise too much. But I was expecting I would have to pay > €300 for a box for my main room (and maybe get a compromise box) elsewhere
    4) I have no saorview compatible tv in the house


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,346 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Saorview reception in Dundrum should be no problem as the 3 rock transmitter is right above you . Theres a good chance even an indoor aerial would work.

    https://satellite.ie/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 bigmanalan


    For a fta box with cccam build in og the www.satboes.com


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 bigmanalan


    Sorry it should be satboxes.com


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 bigmanalan


    The best box to get all the channels is the Ferguson Ariva 102E it costs just under 50.00euro. You can get all of sky tv, fta and rte tv3 etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Squeaky the Squirrel


    bigmanalan wrote: »
    The best box to get all the channels is the Ferguson Ariva 102E it costs just under 50.00euro. You can get all of sky tv, fta and rte tv3 etc.
    Looks like €80, only one Tuner?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    bigmanalan wrote: »
    The best box to get all the channels is the Ferguson Ariva 102E it costs just under 50.00euro. You can get all of sky tv, fta and rte tv3 etc.

    Eh no, it's not got a terrestrial tuner


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    So this satboxers.com site looks cool. Good selection and prices not bad.
    But what is this cccam thing you speak of and why do I want that?
    I get the impression that a satboxes box is likely to more or less work out of the box?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Ah. I finally found a little descirption on these CCCam/OSCam/MGCam things
    So am I write in saying that these are apps/plugins for use on Linux boxes that virtualise viewing cards and allow you to share them with other boxes on your network, Or presumably more illegally, outside of your private netweork with other users.
    As such, I assume that these are used for share a paid subscription card with multipel boxes at home, or to gain access to subscription services abroad not generally available locally or to simply get free access to paid services.

    I assume that if I am really only interested in FTA uk channels and Saorview channels that I would have no need for any of these?
    Even whatever software is required to create a unified EPG for Sarview and UK FTA does not require these?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Ah. I finally found a little descirption on these CCCam/OSCam/MGCam things
    So am I write in saying that these are apps/plugins for use on Linux boxes that virtualise viewing cards and allow you to share them with other boxes on your network, Or presumably more illegally, outside of your private netweork with other users.
    As such, I assume that these are used for share a paid subscription card with multipel boxes at home, or to gain access to subscription services abroad not generally available locally or to simply get free access to paid services.

    I assume that if I am really only interested in FTA uk channels and Saorview channels that I would have no need for any of these?
    Even whatever software is required to create a unified EPG for Sarview and UK FTA does not require these?

    You are correct, it's known as card sharing and cannot be discussed here.

    You can have satellite EPG without cardsharing, cross EPG is a plugin that runs on linux boxes, nothing illegal about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Excellent PogMoThoin
    Thank you
    So my plan is emerging
    I think what I need is a triple tuner linux box (2 DVB-S, 1 DVB-T) with Cross EPG.

    Curious where CrossEPG gets the EPG data from. My understanding is that my tuner will have signals from Saorview which included EPG data and FTA which does not. Does CrossEPG manage it because the box is internet linked and it gets the EPG from web?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    some of the info in your original post is incorrect.
    1- SAORVIEW- only got through an aerial.. all irish stations
    2- SAORSAT- only got through a satellite.... only rte stations (others V.V.V. unlikely to be added)

    3- Freeview- only got through an aerial... uk stations.
    4- Freesat- only got through a satellite.... uk stations.


    you can get saorview so forget about saorsat.

    if you live in an area that gets a freeview signal then buy a saorview box (not a combi box) . It will pick up both saor and freeview. new aerial installed €120 + new box per tv €50/€90ish


    if you live in an area with no freeview signal then buy a saorview/freesat combi box. it will pick up all irish station from an aerial and the uk stations from your sky satellite.i'd buy a seperate box for each tv.

    new tvs will either need no boxes or just a freesat box.

    Alternatively you can cardshare (this is illegal and i wouldn't recommend it, lots of dodgy cnuts that will just pocket your money and run) gets every station for €100ish a year and €300ish a box.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    OP is in Dundrum. No Freeview signal, no need to mention it again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Excellent PogMoThoin
    Thank you
    So my plan is emerging
    I think what I need is a triple tuner linux box (2 DVB-S, 1 DVB-T) with Cross EPG.

    Curious where CrossEPG gets the EPG data from. My understanding is that my tuner will have signals from Saorview which included EPG data and FTA which does not. Does CrossEPG manage it because the box is internet linked and it gets the EPG from web?

    CrossEPG can read the Sky UK Epg from the satellite


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    I am thinking I need the Amiko Alien 2 Triple Tuner from satworld.ie OR a SAB from Zintek.ie


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Thinking of going a whole new direction as of this weekend

    I went out and had a look at a couple of Linux boxes, seyt up with Enigma 2
    And I was a little surprised as to how slick they weren't:
    * EPG very slow to update and not half as well laid out as Sky
    * Lots of jumping around mre technical menus to get to media player functions and tv functions etc
    Now maybe people have managed to get them working better at home
    But it did get me thinking about getting a windows machine, opening the door to software that has been given much more investment and is a little more user-ready.

    I since found out that even if I do not stray from Windows Media Centre... Microsoft do provide EPG data for UK and Irish channels.
    It also very neatly integrates the machine as a media player and PVR through a single interface
    And you also have the alternatives to consider like XBMC, Media Portal etc

    I presume people just favour the Linux boxes because of price?
    Maybe not as cheap as the new brands of Linux box but for the Dreambox prices I think you could def have a PC solution working


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Thinking of going a whole new direction as of this weekend

    I went out and had a look at a couple of Linux boxes, seyt up with Enigma 2
    And I was a little surprised as to how slick they weren't:
    * EPG very slow to update and not half as well laid out as Sky
    * Lots of jumping around mre technical menus to get to media player functions and tv functions etc
    Now maybe people have managed to get them working better at home
    But it did get me thinking about getting a windows machine, opening the door to software that has been given much more investment and is a little more user-ready.

    I since found out that even if I do not stray from Windows Media Centre... Microsoft do provide EPG data for UK and Irish channels.
    It also very neatly integrates the machine as a media player and PVR through a single interface
    And you also have the alternatives to consider like XBMC, Media Portal etc

    I presume people just favour the Linux boxes because of price?
    Maybe not as cheap as the new brands of Linux box but for the Dreambox prices I think you could def have a PC solution working


    They're not doing it right. What satellite box? What version of Enigma2?

    It's all down to how you configure it and learning how to operate it. My 7day epg downloads automatically to the storage everyday at 9AM, it opens and displays instantly for all satellite channels, terrestrial requires me to click a channel once. The CoolTV Guide plugin gives me a planner similar to Sky which I open with the red button from which I can one click add timer or add autotimer (series link). The media player opens with the play button. The Autobouquets plugin gives me the channels with the same order and numbers as they are on Sky, it updates automatically every week with any changes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Interesting
    Thanks again PogMoThoin

    I guess these guys just weren't advertising the stuff too well so
    They actually told me to avoid going to the multi-channel EPG screen (in favour of the EPG for the current channel only screen) cos it just didnt perform well. And they said it was the best EPG they could get working stably. This it was CrossEPG but no sure really.

    To be honest I am not sure what I was looking at other than that it was an Enigma2 boot on an Amiko, and set as good as these guys felt they could to demo it.

    I guess they didn't get it to achieve its potential so

    Still, something comforting in Windows software - when like me you've had many PCs and built a few in your time. Linux is an unknown for me. And I still have a feeling I'd be using more OOTB on a PC


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Interesting
    Thanks again PogMoThoin

    I guess these guys just weren't advertising the stuff too well so
    They actually told me to avoid going to the multi-channel EPG screen (in favour of the EPG for the current channel only screen) cos it just didnt perform well. And they said it was the best EPG they could get working stably. This it was CrossEPG but no sure really.

    To be honest I am not sure what I was looking at other than that it was an Enigma2 boot on an Amiko, and set as good as these guys felt they could to demo it.

    I guess they didn't get it to achieve its potential so

    Still, something comforting in Windows software - when like me you've had many PCs and built a few in your time. Linux is an unknown for me. And I still have a feeling I'd be using more OOTB on a PC

    CrossEPG just pulls down the EPG info on a schedule, it does not display the EPG, this is built into the Enigma image or you use a plugin like CoolTV to display it in a planner. CrossEPG will also save the info to internal flash if no storage is added and configured for it, this will cause the box to lag badly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Aha
    They must have been doing something like that so
    Or using a very slow plug-in for the planner-presentation

    But now you have just confused me as to which way to go even more :-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Aha
    They must have been doing something like that so
    Or using a very slow plug-in for the planner-presentation

    But now you have just confused me as to which way to go even more :-)

    Where are you based? You need a better demo. Windows is a lot of work for something you can get from an off the shelf box if you put the time into it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    I'm living in Dundrum


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Any idea where I might find a shop that would demo an Enigma 2 box properly?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    Any idea where I might find a shop that would demo an Enigma 2 box properly?

    It's doubtful you'll find a shop, it's an enthusiasts thing. Ask in the Amiko Alien thread in Terrestrial, someone in Dublin may let you see theirs all set up. I would but I'm 100 miles away from you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Thats very kind of you PogMoThoin
    I'll ask around


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 291 ✭✭peneau


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    It's doubtful you'll find a shop, it's an enthusiasts thing. Ask in the Amiko Alien thread in Terrestrial, someone in Dublin may let you see theirs all set up. I would but I'm 100 miles away from you.

    Hope you don't think this too cheeky, any possibility you could make a demo video ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    or could you recommend a youtube that shows enigma2 being used to its full potential in ireland.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭mr bungle.


    sorry to interrupt but i am in a bit of bother.i have two fta boxes working off a double lnb.one in the kitchen and one at the main tv.everything worked fine for years but for the last few weeks the box at the main tv has been losing channels.i would store all my favourite channels and the next day they would have no signal.i would have to scan the channels everyday to get them back..other days i would have just the bbc channels then day it might be just itv channels.then if i turn off the box in the kitchen every channel at the main tv loses signal.i swapped boxes but the problem still persists at the main tv.i have been up on the roof over a dozen times since Saturday.can anyone please help as its driving me bonkers!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    peneau wrote: »
    Hope you don't think this too cheeky, any possibility you could make a demo video ?

    I'll try later


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    @ mr bungle: start your own thread, you'll only drag this one way off topic if people try to help here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭mr bungle.


    @ mr bungle: start your own thread, you'll only drag this one way off topic if people try to help here.
    no problem!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Peneau and Donegal
    It appears I am not alone in trying to decide on the Linux option to ditch sky eh?
    You guys on the same ledge?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    I have a quick vid done, uploading atm. I'm chuffed with myself after making a temporary tripod for my phone out of the van windscreen holder stuck to the table :cool:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    WOW PogMoThoin
    How helpful, obliging and innovative are you!
    Youtube is blocked here in work but I must have a quick peak on my phone after such immediate efforts


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    What do you call the video or yourself on youtube?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    mcbod wrote: »
    What do you call the video or yourself on youtube?

    I'll embed it here when done


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    mcbod wrote: »
    Peneau and Donegal
    It appears I am not alone in trying to decide on the Linux option to ditch sky eh?
    You guys on the same ledge?

    i've got a good price with sky at the moment and getting phone of them too.
    but when the offers end i very probably change to something like the amiko alien.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin




    Watch in 1080p on Youtube

    A quick video of the few different ways you browse channels on the Amiko Alien 2 running HDMU Enigma 2 complete with picons, CrossEPG, CoolTVGuide, Autobouquets and Autotimers.

    At first I use the default channel browse built into the Enigma image. This is basic but very functional and responsive. It gives me a full view of what's on now and a decent EPG for individual channels.
    Later about 1 min in, when I get to Sports I use the CoolTVGuide plugin (activated by the red buton) which gives me a planner much like Sky with options for timers or autotimers (series link) with the red and green buttons. I can jump to the next page or to the next bouquet with the different remote buttons. The blue button changes the CoolTVGuide view, I go through each view one by one.

    The Enigma 2 image is HDMU, the skin is PLI-HD. CrossEPG is used to get the 7 day EPG. Autobouquets is used to arrange the bouquets in the same order and channel number as Sky. You will notice I start with a favourites bouquets at the end where I have my most watched channels RTE's, BBC's, ITVs, Channel 5 etc. I also have another seperate bouquet for Saorview.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Thank you so much Pog MoThoin
    I really does look very responsive

    While some of the Windows media centres may look a little slicker I can't see myself getting them running that smooth for the €200 price tag of the Amiko


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭donegal.


    is this easy to set up ? and to get the sky stations?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    donegal. wrote: »
    is this easy to set up ? and to get the sky stations?

    There is a bit of work involved. I posted a guide in the other thread in terrestrial. I will not discuss how I have the Sky channels working as it's against the rules here, Google is your friend.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82445809&postcount=185
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82445824&postcount=186

    If you're following that guide, post and ask in the thread as there are new (more stable) versions of the Enigma image and plugins


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 291 ✭✭peneau


    mcbod wrote: »
    Peneau and Donegal
    It appears I am not alone in trying to decide on the Linux option to ditch sky eh?
    You guys on the same ledge?

    Not with Murdoch, conscientious objector and all that, FTAer so to speak, would definitely like to give Linux a bash alright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 291 ✭✭peneau


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    There is a bit of work involved. I posted a guide in the other thread in terrestrial. I will not discuss how I have the Sky channels working as it's against the rules here, Google is your friend.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82445809&postcount=185
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82445824&postcount=186

    If you're following that guide, post and ask in the thread as there are new (more stable) versions of the Enigma image and plugins

    Top Man Pog, thanks for that effort, that'll help........... I was wondering where my Logitech Z5500's went to:D thanks again


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭mcbod


    Ok I'm in
    Terrestial aerial and Amiko arriving tomorrow morning
    Looks like I'll be spending my weekend learning how to talk FTP with a Linux!
    Thanks for all your help PogMoThoin


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    Post in the other thread asking for the most recent image and plugins and follow my guide


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭John G


    Hello mcbod, just wondering, how did you get on?

    I am no expert but am not too phased by a but of technical work to get a system as impressive as PogMoThoin's. Will be looking to follow in your footsteps if it is feasible.

    p.s. thanks PogMoThoin


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