Comedies and other genres being overlooked

ShagNastii · 01-04-2013 08:33PM #1

Me and my lot at home were looking at Mrs.Doubtfire today. It couldn't help but think that movies like Mrs.Doubtfire and many, many comedies being overlooked in just how great they are.

It's hard not to refer to the Oscar's and their stubbing of anything that isn't a "masterpiece". I'd easily argue why I think Blazing Sladdles is the greatest movie of all time. What is this about? Is it a sort of snobbery towards comedies that aren't overly smart. I guess you could maybe hold the likes of out and out action movies in the same regard.

Not sure I've explained by thoughts but if you's get me, what would your two cents be on the issue?

darced · 01-04-2013 10:32PM

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ThirdMan · 01-04-2013 10:47PM

Mrs Doubtfire won the Golden Globe for Best Musical or Comedy in 1993. So it wasn't completely overlooked. But I know what you're saying. The Oscars have gone very stale if you ask me. It could do with a musical/comedy category to shake things up a bit.

However, the Oscar's greatest sin is grouping all the foreign-language movies together into one category, and only allowing each country to submit one movie. This means that two very fine films from one country would have to complete with each other for the right to be considered by the Academy. This leads to a lot of films being overlooked. And unlike Mrs Doubtfire, these movies are often made on shoestring budgets, and deal with issues that are culturally significant. Oscar recognition could mean that there directors can more easily fund there next project, or draw attention to the movie industry in that country. All of this enriches international film making. The various international film festivals, and their respective awards, already carry out this type of work. But if the people behind the Oscars stopped being so arrogant and pig ignorant then people might follow their lead and open their minds a bit more.

e_e · 02-04-2013 01:20AM

darced wrote: »

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I don't know, and have never known anybody like this.

I'm just weary of people dividing film fans like this. Far too much pigeonholing going on.

e_e · 02-04-2013 01:27AM

I do love comedy and I have quite a few among my favorite films but it's just extremely rare that you get a real marriage of great comic wit and film making vision in a movie comedy. I struggle to think of an American comedy film from the last few years that I'd call absolutely brilliant tbh. A film can be absolutely hilarious but if I forget all about 20 minutes afterwards that means I'll regard it less highly.

I'm just thankful that directors like Woody Allen, Charlie Chaplin and Coen Bros exist who can make absolutely hilarious films that still resonate long after you've watched them. I don't really think such a snobbery exists anyway, after all a comedy film DID win best picture in 2012, and of course a romantic comedy was in the running earlier on this year. I'd say that Four Lions is my favorite comedy of the past few years, it's both laugh out loud funny and thoughtful.

In short I don't think that film fans or awards are particularly snobby about comedy. I just think the film makers need to personally raise their game.

im invisible · 02-04-2013 01:31AM

''comedy'' films remind me of UHT milk,

ThirdMan · 02-04-2013 10:15AM

e_e wrote: »

I'm just thankful that directors... exist who can make absolutely hilarious films that still resonate long after you've watched them.

I think this is key.

And the type of comedies that resonate with you are often those that have some sort of dramatic element. Sideways was fairly successful in 2004. It won the Golden Globe for Best Musical or Comedy and was nominated for a Best Picture Oscar. I found it incredibly funny, but it was also very sad and poignant. I've only seen that movie twice, compared to the many times I've watched and enjoyed Mrs Doubtfire with my family. And nothwithtsanding the latter's dramatic element, I'll always consider Sideways a more important movie.

Bipolar Joe · 02-04-2013 06:32PM

The fact that The Jerk never got an award is a testament to how pointless awards are. One of the funniest movies ever.

darced · 02-04-2013 06:49PM

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e_e · 02-04-2013 06:57PM

I'm not over-complicating anything. Either a film stays with me or it doesn't, that's all I'm saying. It's a fine line between saying "oh I enjoyed that at the time." and smiling when I just think about certain films. The latter are the ones that I find to be more worth my time in the long run.

I could laugh more just browsing viral videos/pictures as watching the likes of Identity Thief or This Is 40 anyway.

Technocentral · 02-04-2013 07:09PM

e_e wrote: »

I do love comedy and I have quite a few among my favorite films but it's just extremely rare that you get a real marriage of great comic wit and film making vision in a movie comedy. I struggle to think of an American comedy film from the last few years that I'd call absolutely brilliant tbh. A film can be absolutely hilarious but if I forget all about 20 minutes afterwards that means I'll regard it less highly.

I'm just thankful that directors like Woody Allen, Charlie Chaplin and Coen Bros exist who can make absolutely hilarious films that still resonate long after you've watched them. I don't really think such a snobbery exists anyway, after all a comedy film DID win best picture in 2012, and of course a romantic comedy was in the running earlier on this year. I'd say that Four Lions is my favorite comedy of the past few years, it's both laugh out loud funny and thoughtful.

In short I don't think that film fans or awards are particularly snobby about comedy. I just think the film makers need to personally raise their game.

I think you're right, very hard to think of a great comedy film in the last few years on a par with Woody Allen, Billy Wilder or the Coen's best, most seem to be aimed at morons nowadays, great comedy on TV though with Peep Show and Curb amonst the highlights

johnny_ultimate · 02-04-2013 07:32PM

darced wrote: »

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Ah anti-snobbery, the worst kind of inadvertent snobbery!

A great film can be provocative, ground-breaking, exhilarating, divisive, brave, subtle, or simply wildly entertaining and amusing. Generic parameters shouldn't matter. Films like Dr. Strangelove or Buster Keaton films are timeless because not only are they damn funny, but they also pushed the medium of film in bold new directions. Even something like The Big Lebowski - IMO the greatest comedy the last two decades has offered - has an art to its profound stupidity that makes it always rewatchable and engaging. Meaningless awards are never a barometer of true greatness, and getting frustrated by them will only lead to more frustration. Comedies are far from the only genre overlooked by the self-proclaimed elite - masterful horror, animation and that easily definable entity known as 'world cinema' (in all its derivative glory) are typically ignored. Much better to set one's own definition of greatness.

Personally, I think Mrs Doubtfire is a piece of crap, but hey, opinions!

darced · 02-04-2013 07:52PM

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ShagNastii · 02-04-2013 08:27PM

Think that's probably the main point. Who are the critics and what are their tastes. I'm glad the likes of the Coen Brothers and Woody Allen have been mentioned. These are two directors and producers that are critically heralded. I remember Burn After Reading coming out. It was applauded by all the reviews I heard and read but (for a comedy) the I don't remember it being that funny. I do appreciative a lot of their work.

I'd imagine film buffs with look upon Anchorman 2 a whole lot differently to the way they first approached Anchorman 1. As if it won't be naff anymore, they are in on the joke and this random and ironic.

Ah come on johnny? How can you think Mrs. Doubtfire is crap. Come at me with "Date Movie is crap", but the writing and acting performances in Mrs Doubtfire are to quote yourself "provocative, ground-breaking, exhilarating, divisive, brave, subtle, or simply wildly entertaining and amusing".

johnny_ultimate · 02-04-2013 08:33PM

Burn After Reading was heralded as hilarious because it was genuinely hilarious. Probably the hardest I've ever laughed in a cinema setting.

Anchorman 2 will be a failure only if it lives up to the quality of its very funny predecessor. Although that style have comedy is hard to emulate - the whole cast have gone on to star in a host of wildly inconsistent films.

Fysh · 02-04-2013 09:35PM

ShagNastii wrote: »

Think that's probably the main point. Who are the critics and what are their tastes. I'm glad the likes of the Coen Brothers and Woody Allen have been mentioned. These are two directors and producers that are critically heralded. I remember Burn After Reading coming out. It was applauded by all the reviews I heard and read but (for a comedy) the I don't remember it being that funny. I do appreciative a lot of their work.

I'd imagine film buffs with look upon Anchorman 2 a whole lot differently to the way they first approached Anchorman 1. As if it won't be naff anymore, they are in on the joke and this random and ironic.

Ah come on johnny? How can you think Mrs. Doubtfire is crap. Come at me with "Date Movie is crap", but the writing and acting performances in Mrs Doubtfire are to quote yourself "provocative, ground-breaking, exhilarating, divisive, brave, subtle, or simply wildly entertaining and amusing".

I have 2 points to offer:

1) Taking any critic at their word is a recipe for disaster. There are very few critics whose reviews I'll give any weight, and in each case it's because I've spent enough time following their reviews and comparing them to my own opinions that I have a reasonable understanding of how to interpret one of their reviews in the context of my own tastes. That's the only way in which I can see critics being of any value; if Joe Q Neverheardofhim says that some film I've never heard of is the pinnacle of cinema I've got no barometer by which to judge whether I'll agree with him and enjoy it or find myself sitting through Wrong Turn 7: Full Circlejerk.

2) I hope you note the irony in complaining about Those Bastard Faceless Critics *shakes fist* while then berating someone for having an opinion different to you

I haven't seen Mrs. Doubtfire in a few years, but from what I recall of the last time I saw some of it on TV, it's aged reasonably well but wouldn't be up there in my all-time great comedies list. Blazing Saddles, on the other hand, is currently, has been since I saw it and may very well always be my favourite comedy of all time.

In terms of comedies at awards ceremonies, I posit the tentative suggestion that over the last 10-15 years there have been relatively few straight-up comedies that don't also go for the lowest-common-denominator gross-out/teen comedy approach. I think that a lot of the better comedies have also had strong dramatic credentials, and so have been judged as "funny dramas" rather than "comedies", if you know what I mean. (I haven't done any extensive research into comedic films released over the last 15 years, so I'll happily hold my hands up if doing so reveals my suggestion to be a load of cobblers...)

Technocentral · 02-04-2013 09:44PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Ah anti-snobbery, the worst kind of inadvertent snobbery!

A great film can be provocative, ground-breaking, exhilarating, divisive, brave, subtle, or simply wildly entertaining and amusing. Generic parameters shouldn't matter. Films like Dr. Strangelove or Buster Keaton films are timeless because not only are they damn funny, but they also pushed the medium of film in bold new directions. Even something like The Big Lebowski - IMO the greatest comedy the last two decades has offered - has an art to its profound stupidity that makes it always rewatchable and engaging. Meaningless awards are never a barometer of true greatness, and getting frustrated by them will only lead to more frustration. Comedies are far from the only genre overlooked by the self-proclaimed elite - masterful horror, animation and that easily definable entity known as 'world cinema' (in all its derivative glory) are typically ignored. Much better to set one's own definition of greatness.

Personally, I think Mrs Doubtfire is a piece of crap, but hey, opinions!

You are being too kind, Mrs Doubtfire is Mrs Brown for a family audience, why people have to apoligise for despising cack is beyond me.

Technocentral · 02-04-2013 09:47PM

ShagNastii wrote: »

Think that's probably the main point. Who are the critics and what are their tastes. I'm glad the likes of the Coen Brothers and Woody Allen have been mentioned. These are two directors and producers that are critically heralded. I remember Burn After Reading coming out. It was applauded by all the reviews I heard and read but (for a comedy) the I don't remember it being that funny. I do appreciative a lot of their work.

I'd imagine film buffs with look upon Anchorman 2 a whole lot differently to the way they first approached Anchorman 1. As if it won't be naff anymore, they are in on the joke and this random and ironic.

Ah come on johnny? How can you think Mrs. Doubtfire is crap. Come at me with "Date Movie is crap", but the writing and acting performances in Mrs Doubtfire are to quote yourself "provocative, ground-breaking, exhilarating, divisive, brave, subtle, or simply wildly entertaining and amusing".

Surely you jest! Williams is a notch below Adam Sandler as a comic "actor".

Zeek12 · 02-04-2013 09:53PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Burn After Reading was heralded as hilarious because it was genuinely hilarious. Probably the hardest I've ever laughed in a cinema setting.
.

Have to say I found nothing remotely hilarious in that movie. And I'm a big fan of the Coen Bros. There's something really irritating about Brad Pitt when he's doing that zany character thing. So over the top!!
He was the same in Inglorius Basterds. Ruined it for me:( If you take out his scenes that movie is a classic!

Technocentral · 02-04-2013 10:03PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Burn After Reading was heralded as hilarious because it was genuinely hilarious. Probably the hardest I've ever laughed in a cinema setting.

Anchorman 2 will be a failure only if it lives up to the quality of its very funny predecessor. Although that style have comedy is hard to emulate - the whole cast have gone on to star in a host of wildly inconsistent films.

Oh no what a choice! I love the Coens but that film is a very, very minor entry in their comedy oeuvre , even Intolerable Cruelty is 10 times funnier.

pixelburp · 02-04-2013 10:20PM

The simpler truth is that comedy is & has always been seen as a frivolous or cathartic relief, while drama aims for greater emotional depth and something more lasting, creating a different response from the viewer. That's not to say comedy can't be meaningful, or tragic - some of the best comedy is born from otherwise tragic & dark scenarios, such as the aforementioned Burn After Reading - but awards ceremonies look for the kind of emotional depth that often doesn't exist in broader comedies. The cream will always rise to the top though, awards or no awards, & the classics of comedy live on just as vigorously as any classic drama.

For me though, pound for pound, comedy is one of the hardest forms of acting out there, if not the hardest; you can't just emote your way out of a scene & trust to luck, comedy requires the kind of split-second timing, subtly of range & delivery that most dramatic actors simply don't have - nor can it be taught.

In fact I'll go one further and suggest it's easier for a comedic actor to play a dramatic role than it is for a dramatic actor to do comedy - the comic actor already has much of the skillset to apply him/herself to a dramatic role; even Adam Sandler has shown quality acting chops in Punch Drunk Love (though arguably he has none of the fine comedic qualities I just spoke of), and Robin Williams has hit it out of the park with some of his dramatic roles. On the other hand, the cinematic graveyards are full of (otherwise talented) dramatic actors who tried their hand at comedy.

e_e · 02-04-2013 10:34PM

Technocentral wrote: »

I think you're right, very hard to think of a great comedy film in the last few years on a par with Woody Allen, Billy Wilder or the Coen's best, most seem to be aimed at morons nowadays, great comedy on TV though with Peep Show and Curb amonst the highlights

As someone who loves to laugh the rave reviews and word of mouth for films like Superbad, The Hangover and The Guard just baffled me.

I don't even get the appeal of Judd Apatow either. His films are all about 40 minutes long and full of clunky drama and obnoxious frat boy humor.

Technocentral · 03-04-2013 12:39AM

e_e wrote: »

As someone who loves to laugh the rave reviews and word of mouth for films like Superbad, The Hangover and The Guard just baffled me.

I don't even get the appeal of Judd Apatow either. His films are all about 40 minutes long and full of clunky drama and obnoxious frat boy humor.

Actually I was going to give Superbad as an example earlier, watched it recently and found it, despite all the unwarranted hype, to be a distinctly average (even if it is that ) film that bored me about half way in, all I can think is that the poor saps who rate this and the likes of Hangover so highly haven't seen genuinely really hilarious films like Withnail and I, Some Like It Hot, Dr. Stranglove, The Odd Couple and Annie Hall, sad really that their reference points are so low and base (80s equivalent of Apatow's films would be Porkys and Revenge of the Nerds).

Mickeroo · 03-04-2013 11:21AM

Zeek12 wrote: »

Have to say I found nothing remotely hilarious in that movie. And I'm a big fan of the Coen Bros. There's something really irritating about Brad Pitt when he's doing that zany character thing. So over the top!!
He was the same in Inglorius Basterds. Ruined it for me:( If you take out his scenes that movie is a classic!

The two characters & performances weren't remotely similar imo.

delbertgrady · 03-04-2013 11:44AM

e_e wrote: »

I don't even get the appeal of Judd Apatow either. His films are all about 40 minutes long and full of clunky drama and obnoxious frat boy humor.

I'm assuming you mean 40 minutes too long.

e_e · 03-04-2013 04:35PM

delbertgrady wrote: »

I'm assuming you mean 40 minutes too long.

haha, yeah. I didn't want to back and edit the post a full day later.

The joke "This Is 40 Minutes Too Long" comes to mind easily!

Norwesterner · 03-04-2013 04:52PM

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

The fact that The Jerk never got an award is a testament to how pointless awards are. One of the funniest movies ever.

No comedian has ever won an award for Best Actor, as far as I know, despite it probably being the toughest form of acting.
Sacha Baron Cohen's acting in Borat etc might look easy, but remember there was only one take and it's totally improvised acting.

Norwesterner · 03-04-2013 04:54PM

Will Ferrel, Jack Black and John C. Reilly deal with the issue of overlooked actors at the Oscars...
using the medium of song.
Very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5JAPkvnyso

ShagNastii · 03-04-2013 06:14PM

Maybe it has to do with anything that tips the "low brow" scale of things being scalded for doing so. I think most people appreciated SBC's performance in Borat. It is a great input to the argument and might answer what I was getting at in my OP.

Of course some will throw it away as jest and clownery but is it at all fathomable to compare the likes of let's say, De Niro in Taxi Driver to Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber?

I know it's like comparing cheese and chalk. I don't plan to troll but just throwing it out there.

Zeek12 · 03-04-2013 06:58PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

The two characters & performances weren't remotely similar imo.

Two very different characters alright. But for me Pitt indulged in the same OTT style of zany performance in each role.
And the movies were both much the poorer for it imo.

Zeek12 · 03-04-2013 07:05PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

No comedian has ever won an award for Best Actor, as far as I know, despite it probably being the toughest form of acting.

Didn't Roberto Benigni win the Best Actor Oscar in the late 90's for Life is Beautiful? It was'nt what you'd call a side-splitting comedy by any means, but there were comic elements to it.

Lee Marvin also won it for Cat Ballou which allegedly is a comedy! Depending on your taste I suppose....
Personally I much prefer him in tough-guy roles.

adox · 03-04-2013 07:13PM

I thought Little Miss Sunshine was fantastic, for those struggling to think of a memorable American comedy in the last few years.

Absolutely hilarious and some very well written and memorable characters as well.

Zeek12 · 03-04-2013 07:16PM

Agreed. Little Miss Sunshine was really good.:)

I thought Sideways was fantastic too. It's one of my all-time comedy favourites.....not just a favourite of recent years.

Bipolar Joe · 03-04-2013 08:28PM

Tucker And Dale Vs. Evil was out in 2010. Granted, it's not exactly high brow, but it's the one movie of recent years that had me crying from laughter.

Norwesterner · 03-04-2013 08:32PM

"Walk Hard", a comedy spoof of Rock Star biopics was very-under-rated.
John C Reilly pays Dewey Cox, part Roy Orbinson, part Johnny Cash, part Ray Charles.
Hilarious.

e_e · 03-04-2013 08:38PM

adox wrote: »

I thought Little Miss Sunshine was fantastic, for those struggling to think of a memorable American comedy in the last few years.

Absolutely hilarious and some very well written and memorable characters as well.

That was 7 years ago in fairness. I agree it's a good movie though.

Icarus Wings · 03-04-2013 09:43PM

e_e wrote: »

That was 7 years ago in fairness. I agree it's a good movie though.

Wow, hard to believe it's been that long! Still very high up on my own list of favourites, mainly because of the wide range of different emotions it invokes every time you watch it.

I think it's time for another viewing!

Comedies and other genres being overlooked

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