Is it ok to hit your dog?

Rowanvella199 · 20-06-2013 10:40PM #1

Was having a debate with a friend earlier who is stating that it is very difficult to train your dog without the use of light slaps etc. As I have never owned I would be interested in hearing opinions from other dog owners on this matter. I personally feel that violance should not be used on animals and that in all situations positive reinforncment would suffice.
Would love to know your opinions....

DBB · 20-06-2013 10:51PM

Absolutely, positively no need at all op! To me, it's like slapping kids, in that if you have to do it, you've done something wrong!
Dogs that are highly trained to do really impressive work, like bomb/drug/cadaver detection, search and rescue, disaster site recovery, dogs for the disabled, other therapy dogs, assistance dogs, are all taught to do their thing without a hand ever laid on them except in friendliness. If it's good enough for them, and effective enough for them, then there's no argument for any other owners of any other dogs!
That's leaving aside the ethics of it: qualified trainers and behaviourists sign codes of conduct as membership of professional organisations where they commit never to raise a hand to a dog, or do anything to frighten, startle or hurt a dog. This reflects the fact that good professionals simply don't have to hurt a dog to train it, nor do they need to instruct anyone to do so.
If you'd like some good stuff to back up your argument, have a look at http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk.
Good luck! The force of good training is with you :-D

Rowanvella199 · 20-06-2013 10:58PM

DBB wrote: »

Absolutely, positively no need at all op! To me, it's like slapping kids, in that if you have to do it, you've done something wrong!
Dogs that are highly trained to do really impressive work, like bomb/drug/cadaver detection, search and rescue, disaster site recovery, dogs for the disabled, other therapy dogs, assistance dogs, are all taught to do their thing without a hand ever laid on them except in friendliness. If it's good enough for them, and effective enough for them, then there's no argument for any other owners of any other dogs!
That's leaving aside the ethics of it: qualified trainers and behaviourists sign codes of conduct as membership of professional organisations where they commit never to raise a hand to a dog, or do anything to frighten, startle or hurt a dog. This reflects the fact that good professionals simply don't have to hurt a dog to train it, nor do they need to instruct anyone to do so.
If you'd like some good stuff to back up your argument, have a look at http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk.
Good luck! The force of good training is with you :-D

I agree 100 percent, the argument has now become quite heated. I put your points across to my friend, he asked me to ask you if you have a dog?

ABajaninCork · 20-06-2013 11:12PM

No.

DBB · 20-06-2013 11:14PM

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

I agree 100 percent, the argument has now become quite heated. I put your points across to my friend, he asked me to ask you if you have a dog?

Yes! I own two dogs now, one of whom is a professional dog working for a State agency, trained by me, coz that's what I do! If i raised a hand to her in jest, she'd wag her tail... She has no idea what it means. In other words, she got to the highest levels of her particular field with ne'er a harsh word nor a raised hand. Same goes for pet dogs, I've trained hundreds of them, some with really serious behavioural problems, but have never resorted to any slapping, shouting or anything the colour of it. This is not just me on a personal crusade... I'm simply conforming to the codes of conduct of the various professional organisations that I and many others are members of. Science has shown us how to teach dogs without coercion...That site I linked you to explains it all!
Another huge group of dogs who must be trained without any form of coercion is herding dogs. And whilst the hunting fraternity have some who don't cover themselves in glory, most hunting folk know that hitting your dog is a damn risky thing to do... It's all about trust with any dog, and once you start hitting them, you've lost their trust.

miss flutter ups · 20-06-2013 11:18PM

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

ABajaninCork · 20-06-2013 11:21PM

Nope! Still don't agree. I've never hit my sometimes wilful Shih Tzu nor any other dog I've owned. And I've had Dobies as well as Heinz 57's and a JRT. Never saw the need to hit them.

DBB · 20-06-2013 11:32PM

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

The problem with everything you've said here is that dogs do not have an Alpha/Beta/Omega social structure, and it is highly debatable whether their ancestors, the wolf, do either... At least, not in the context in which you and some trainers mean it.
Again, to save me having to explain it, please take a read of http://dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk
because it explains in reasonable detail where you're going wrong. Take the time to read it, please, and take a look at the weighty organisations who put their support to it. Please. This belief in alpha stuff when it comes to dogs simply has to stop... It has been disproved, I cannot say it any simpler than that. Snakeoil. Poppycock. Bunkum. Disproven. To say this is anthropomorphisation is simply wrong: dogs, not humans, have been at the centre of extensive dog behaviour research in the past 15 yrs... This is not anthropomorphisation, it is good, hard science.
Like I said above, there is simply no need to use any nip-replacements, pinches, slaps or taps on dogs. I never said they can't work, but they can and often do cause more problems than you started with. Believe me, I see it every day. There is always, always, always an ethical, non-physical alternative to dealing with all problem behaviours or misbehaviour is dogs. Always. In light of this, it is simply unethical to use any physical coercion in the name of training.

endacl · 20-06-2013 11:41PM

Same as children. If you need to hit them, you probably shouldn't have them.

Rowanvella199 · 20-06-2013 11:46PM

DBB wrote: »

Yes! I own two dogs now, one of whom is a professional dog working for a State agency, trained by me, coz that's what I do! If i raised a hand to her in jest, she'd wag her tail... She has no idea what it means. In other words, she got to the highest levels of her particular field with ne'er a harsh word nor a raised hand. Same goes for pet dogs, I've trained hundreds of them, some with really serious behavioural problems, but have never resorted to any slapping, shouting or anything the colour of it. This is not just me on a personal crusade... I'm simply conforming to the codes of conduct of the various professional organisations that I and many others are members of. Science has shown us how to teach dogs without coercion...That site I linked you to explains it all!
Another huge group of dogs who must be trained without any form of coercion is herding dogs. And whilst the hunting fraternity have some who don't cover themselves in glory, most hunting folk know that hitting your dog is a damn risky thing to do... It's all about trust with any dog, and once you start hitting them, you've lost their trust.

Thank you for your input. In my opinion you are certainly right and i think the majority of your arguments my friend had no awnser for.

Mrs W · 20-06-2013 11:48PM

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

DBB · 20-06-2013 11:50PM

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

Thank you for your input. In my opinion you are certainly right and i think the majority of your arguments my friend had no awnser for.

That kinda sums up why justifying using coercive training techniques falls flat on its face. Glad I was able to help. I'd love to get your friend, and any other doubters, into a big room to watch a good, qualified trainer or behaviourist work with a difficult dog... I would defy them not to leave converted!

endacl · 20-06-2013 11:53PM

DBB wrote: »

That kinda sums up why justifying using coercive training techniques falls flat on its face. Glad I was able to help. I'd love to get your friend, and any other doubters, into a big room to watch a good, qualified trainer or behaviourist work with a difficult dog... I would defy them not to leave converted!

Dogs are fairly straightforward. Once they're not confused and stressed by confusion.

ABajaninCork · 20-06-2013 11:53PM

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

WTF?? Your dog 'enjoys' her walks because the choke chain is hurting her. Not to mention the 'light slaps'. :mad:

A choke chain is beyond cruel. And cheap. Why don't you get her a decent Halti or a Dogmatic? Much kinder to the dog, and I bet you don't have to slap her either.

endacl · 20-06-2013 11:55PM

Feck. A lab is one of the more 'trainable' and compliant breeds. I've a pal who directs his using only hand signals. No need to choke. Ever.

DBB · 20-06-2013 11:59PM

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

No need. Just, simply no need.
Both I and my peers in the world of dog training have dealt with hundreds, probably thousands of bad pullers, big, small, and I'll bet, even worse than yours. Never once, ever, have any of us had to use a choke chain, or slaps or stern words.
Dogs are so soft and biddable, humans get away with so, so much. But meet the wrong dog, and this sort of thing will get you bitten.
I meet a number of dogs every year who become aggressive towards their owner when they see "that face" or hear "that tone of voice" which predict to them that a slap is on the way. They have had to resort to defending themselves from their own owner... And I'm not talking huge abuse here, I'm talking dogs who've had the little slap, or tap, or pinch on the soft, fleshy parts.The latest of those was just today. Could somebody who advocates slapping dogs, or using stern words, please advise me on how best to deal with a dog who's doing this?
Thanks.

miss flutter ups · 21-06-2013 12:21AM

Ok I've read some very valid posts but as a dog owner of a lab/Alsatian that has since passed, I rared her the only way I knew how. The whole alpha/omega is just my way but I'm sure every breed is different. My madam was a girly (haven't experience with a male) She had the strength of an alsation and the personality of a lab. When she stepped out of line she got a sharp slap/a giving out to/was ignored for a couple of hours, she sulked as most young ones do and then would lick up to me, id give her a big cuddle we'd have a little chat and then all would b forgiven. This procedure only lasted a few months b4 she new right from wrong and she was my little babs. I know omega/alpha is disputed but as she grew older a simple look would b enough to signal mammy wasn't happy and Sheba would adjust her behaviour.

Tigger · 21-06-2013 12:26AM

my dogs love me and only need to know what i want
i adopted a boxer a few months ago and i'll soon have some before and after pics
no hitting just attention and love and play
choke chains etc are barbaric
no judging i've had dogs for years and years ago hitting and choking were mainstream

miss flutter ups · 21-06-2013 12:28AM

Just to add to this I never bothered training her to stop pulling on the lead/i lived quite near to the beach so it was never a real issue. She was so happy to b out and about I didn't feel d need. My corrections only came into play with nervous beach walkers/dogs. I hope I don't sound like a dog abuser im far from it and tbh take issue with d poor little mites left howling out of loneliness in cramped back gardens

DBB · 21-06-2013 12:34AM

But none of that, ie giving her looks etc is nothing to do with dominance, leadership, alpha stuff. It is purely the dog knowing that doing the bold thing, in your presence, results in punishment, so she doesn't do it. Indeed, research has shown that dogs are far less likely to do bold stuff (like stealing food) when they know they're being watched, that even goes for dogs that have not been trained or punished not to do said bold stuff.
The size of the dog is immaterial, my professional dog as posted about above is a large GSD. Breed is also largely immaterial, other than having to be aware of breed traits which may make some things more challenging to teach. But no matter how challenging, it's never necessary, knowing what we know now, to resort to coercion.
Just to clarify, there is no "dispute" about the alpha, dominance, leadership end of things. It's been blown out of the water. That site I linked you to is great, but it's also 5 years old... That 5 years has seen an exponential growth in research into dog behaviour, cognition, and learning theory.
I completely understand that you did what you did at the time because you knew no better... I was exactly the same. I'm a product of the Barbara Woodhouse era, a woman that makes present-day trainers and behaviourists cringe... Morto!
If you have a few quid to spare, or want to hint at someone for a birthday or Christmas pressie, get your mitts on "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw. It's a much more up to date version of where dog training and behaviour is at now.

miss flutter ups · 21-06-2013 01:13AM

I appreciate that and when I decide to adopt another puppy I'll read into it. I know nothings black and white. I'll need another few years as my heart is still broken

but I just posted what worked for me, although id have hated to think she ever obeyed out of fear alone it did work for 14 years. I was so honoured to b there at d end and she wanted noone else. Although in agony she was wagging that tail and lifting that big head at any sound i feel my job was done, a happy and content dog right till d end

cocker5 · 21-06-2013 07:41AM

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

Im sorry but choke chains are just wrong. on so many levels.

You dog pulls on the lead beacuse you didnt train her properly.

My cocker is the same a terrible puller, would NEVER use a choke chain. I use a head collar (dogmatic) instead far more effective and less damagaing to the dogs neck and less painfull.

Im sorry Mrs W but its wrong to train a dog by inflicting pain / fear and thats what choke chains do.

Im not going to even get into the slapping of your dog

your communctaion skills are lacking. and as a result your dogs understaning of what you want is also lacking.

:eek:

cocker5 · 21-06-2013 07:45AM

I would like to point out my cocker is a willfull little mite, pulls on the lead (before the dogmatic head collar), wrecked the house for 6 months as a pup.... give him an inch and he will take a mile BUT i have never slapped him or inflicted pain on him or used a choke chain or other cruel training methods.

Now at 8 years of age he is the most doscile, well mannered, sweet, loveable little rogue and all this without choke chains, slapping and abuse.

:rolleyes:

Gumbi · 21-06-2013 07:46AM

DBB wrote: »

or using stern words.

I snap my fingers and raise my voice if Maxi doesn't listen to me, surely that's acceptable? I think that's perfectly acceptable to be honest.

borderlinemeath · 21-06-2013 07:58AM

miss flutter ups wrote: »

I appreciate that and when I decide to adopt another puppy I'll read into it. I know nothings black and white. I'll need another few years as my heart is still broken but I just posted what worked for me, although id have hated to think she ever obeyed out of fear alone it did work for 14 years. I was so honoured to b there at d end and she wanted noone else. Although in agony she was wagging that tail and lifting that big head at any sound i feel my job was done, a happy and content dog right till d end

I think a hell of a lot of people who grew up with this thinking, keep up the same methods and that's where the problems start. I remember 20 years ago the family golden retriever being put on a choke chain. It never stopped him pulling. He was terrified of the 'man' in the house (my brother in law) because he would be giving him the odd slap and yank of the chain. Back then people didn't have any other methods to use.

6 years ago when I got my 'own' dog, I got numerous books on how to train and get the best from her. I still made some mistakes but I never have to touch her to get her to do exactly what I want her to do, nor my (very nervous at the start) rescue boy. Had I or anybody else laid a finger on him they would probably have broken the last nerve he had left. A bag of treats or whatever may be your dogs motivator (could be a squeaky toy) goes a lot lot further in getting your dog to do exactly what you want/need it to do. Coupled with the right tone of voice and praise it works wonders, you would be really surprised.

Wibbs · 21-06-2013 08:32AM

DBB wrote: »

The problem with everything you've said here is that dogs do not have an Alpha/Beta/Omega social structure, and it is highly debatable whether their ancestors, the wolf, do either... At least, not in the context in which you and some trainers mean it.

+1 DBB, it seems they don't. A wolf pack is an extended family, where authority is based on respect and deference not dominance. Just like in healthy human family groups*. The "alpha" male and female are basically mum and dad and the "betas" etc are their kids. The dynamic is based on mutual survival and trust.

Now some research does show wolves can have different roles within this family structure. IIRC there are "warners" who are hyper alert to threats, there are runners who well do all the chasing in hunts and there's even a peacemaker who dives in when squabbles kick off. That wolfman bloke Shaun Ellis holds that role in his pack. Even if the daddy/dominant guy kicks off with one of the kids he sticks his head between them and makes calming noises and gestures. Probably "ah here bud leave it oooouuu" in wolf. The crazy fecker. Even though he's sticking his head into a fast moving hairy mass of very big teeth and jaw snaps he very rarely even gets a nip and that's accidental(and which apparently they get all apologetic about afterwards, licking him to death and such). All down to trust. If he slapped one it would game over for trust and respect.

Just my take now, but maybe some "bad" behaviours in some dogs are echoes of those ancient roles coming through(and ones we selected for)? EG the very boundary defensive dog that barks at the slightest thing might be a "warner"? That early on his human family encouraged him or her in some way to take up that role?

*they're actually more similar to us than the other great apes in social behaviour, which helps explain how we ended up cooperating. A wolf cub brought into a paleolithic hunter gatherer group would understand the general gist of social interaction. Even those rare examples of children being "adopted" by wolves and feral dogs shows it can easily go the other way too. A child would last no time with a band of chimps.

DBB · 21-06-2013 09:03AM

Gumbi wrote: »

I snap my fingers and raise my voice if Maxi doesn't listen to me, surely that's acceptable? I think that's perfectly acceptable to be honest.

I think you're taking my comment a little out of context there... Of course it's ok to give a verbal reminder if necessary, as long as the dog knows what it means, and to do this properly, you've got to actively teach the dog what a verbal warning means. Otherwise, the risk is that the dog stops doing what he's doing because you've just given him a fright, or in some cases because he has learned that "that voice" is a precursor to physical punishment (not referring to you here, just generally).
Without context, the danger with verbal corrections is that they often morph into verbal abuse, mainly because the dog has no clue what they mean.
Some really sensitive or nervous dogs will stop dead in their tracks at the merest raised voice, but this is not obedience, it's anxiety.
To teach context to the dog, it involves using a stern(ish) word, such as "no" or "ah ah" or whatever, just before you, for example, put the dog on a time-out, or turn your back on him and walk away from him, or don't give him an expected reward.
So, just say you're teaching a dog to sit instead of jumping up on you. You ask him to sit. He jumps up. You say "ah ah", then turn your back, walking out of the room if necessary with your bag of treats. Next time, the dog sits when you ask, and gets his reward straight away. Both need to be repeated and done consistently. The former is teaching him that jumping up will go unrewarded and punished by you leaving and not rewarding him, the latter teaches him that sitting works. The former also teaches him that when you say "ah ah", it's a precursor to him losing out, and so "ah ah" becomes a verbal marker for the dog to quit jumping up/humping the cushion/hassling your other dog etc etc. If you give the verbal warning, and the dog quickly stops and reverts back to nice behaviour, then reward him, tell him he's great! This feedback (good and bad) is important, and dogs get very tuned into it when we use it well.
Many people who refuse to accept ethical training techniques will accuse those of us who do use ethical techniques of being soft, that we can't take on really bad cases... One fella who routinely uses shock collars to train dogs calls us "biscuit flingers", thinking that all we do is reward, reward, reward, with no consequences for bad behaviour. But they are utterly mistaken on the latter, really showing up their own ignorance and lack of training, I suppose. We do use punishment for bad behaviour, but it is punishment which is 100% non-physical, and also deemed by human and adult behaviourists as not causing damage, yet highly effective. In other words, they are ethical punishments. I've already mentioned them: with-holding an expected reward, and time-outs. Extremely effective when used correctly, but do not cause huge or lasting psychological trauma.

OldNotWIse · 21-06-2013 09:04AM

No.

OldNotWIse · 21-06-2013 09:09AM

endacl wrote: »

Feck. A lab is one of the more 'trainable' and compliant breeds. I've a pal who directs his using only hand signals. No need to choke. Ever.

There is nothing more irritating than someone who does not train their dog...and then punishes the dog for not being trained!We were minding a dog for someone a while ago who had not been trained. My mum was screeching "sit! sit!" at him and he was just looking at her in confusion. She got so p1ssd with him for not "doing what he was told" - I had to point out that they dont inherently know what sit means like??? :rolleyes: ffs

The saddest thing is a dog that cowers or moves away when a hand is raised. If I saw someone hitting their dog I'd rip into them. And if anyone so much as touched a hair on my dogs body - god help them.

Over... because threads like this can kill a happy Friday buzz lol

westies4ever · 21-06-2013 09:09AM

Some great advice here. Both my dogs were awful pullers and they still have their moments but its rare and only if something REALLY sets them off - a cat crossing the road in front of us while we're out for example.

If they're pulling, I tell them no and I stop dead and get them to sit by my side. Then we start again, if they pull again I repeat. They soon click on that by pulling, they aint going anywhere and they settle down. No punishment needed.

miss flutter ups · 21-06-2013 10:33AM

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I think a hell of a lot of people who grew up with this thinking, keep up the same methods and that's where the problems start. I remember 20 years ago the family golden retriever being put on a choke chain. It never stopped him pulling. He was terrified of the 'man' in the house (my brother in law) because he would be giving him the odd slap and yank of the chain. Back then people didn't have any other methods to use.

6 years ago when I got my 'own' dog, I got numerous books on how to train and get the best from her. I still made some mistakes but I never have to touch her to get her to do exactly what I want her to do, nor my (very nervous at the start) rescue boy. Had I or anybody else laid a finger on him they would probably have broken the last nerve he had left. A bag of treats or whatever may be your dogs motivator (could be a squeaky toy) goes a lot lot further in getting your dog to do exactly what you want/need it to do. Coupled with the right tone of voice and praise it works wonders, you would be really surprised.

Yea totally agree with the choke chain tbh pulling never bothered me I liked that she was excited. The thing is the slaps were very rare. Would U agree with shouting? Basically, if she over pushed her look she'd get a warning, then she'd get another warning and this would usually do the trick. I don't believe she associated this with having been given a slap 6 months previously. The slaps were used when she'd ignore d warnings and would have this bold defiant look about her! It was so cute but I couldn't give in.

Having said that, this dog got away with murder! There was a rule that Sheba wasn't allowed on d new leather suite, it lasted about a week!

Must add I used the reward/encouragement method with easy singles when training her to sit/roll over etc I know easy singles aren't good for dogs but I was only ten

I have a buck cat now and there ain't no training that little tear away ha ha

noddyone2 · 21-06-2013 10:39AM

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

Was having a debate with a friend earlier who is stating that it is very difficult to train your dog without the use of light slaps etc. As I have never owned I would be interested in hearing opinions from other dog owners on this matter. I personally feel that violance should not be used on animals and that in all situations positive reinforncment would suffice.
Would love to know your opinions....

Never ever hit a dog. Voice is the tool to use. And yes, I have a dog, have always had dogs since childhood. Hitting teaches fear, nothing else. Here's an example: A neighbour has a terrier on a farm, she let him out last thing at night to pee, he chased a rabbit across the field. Eventually he came back and (in her words)''I gave him a good hiding''
Now, consider: What did that little dog learn from that?
In my opinion, he learnt that to come back means getting beaten.

fatmammycat · 21-06-2013 10:43AM

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

That's mad, I've a 15 month old male GSD who I can walk on a flat lead thanks to training him not to pull, iv;e never had to 'slap' him or choke him, or yell at him or anything that might undermine his trust in me. 8 weeks? 8 weeks is nothing, training as far as I can see is ongoing throught out a dog's like, not just something you attempt for a while and give up if it doesn't work.

wolfpawnat · 21-06-2013 10:51AM

The UCD veterinary department recommended way to train your dog, according to their dog behaviourist, is positive reinforcement. So unwanted behaviours, you ignore the dog dramatically, say "ah-ah" or "no" and turn your back to them, that gets their attention, when they stop the unwanted behaviour, give praise and on occasion treats. To train them, praise anything they do right, they want praise, they want to feel the "pack/master/whatever" is pleased with them. To them there is no greater good. Dogs want to be good, dramatically pretending they are not there is the last thing they want. The similarities between under 5 year old children and dogs are startling! It is one of the ways to raise a child too.

Hitting a dog creates fear and could lead to the animal snapping in defence (as we would do ourselves).

muddypaws · 21-06-2013 10:52AM

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Ok I've read some very valid posts but as a dog owner of a lab/Alsatian that has since passed, I rared her the only way I knew how. The whole alpha/omega is just my way but I'm sure every breed is different. My madam was a girly (haven't experience with a male) She had the strength of an alsation and the personality of a lab. When she stepped out of line she got a sharp slap/a giving out to/was ignored for a couple of hours, she sulked as most young ones do and then would lick up to me, id give her a big cuddle we'd have a little chat and then all would b forgiven. This procedure only lasted a few months b4 she new right from wrong and she was my little babs. I know omega/alpha is disputed but as she grew older a simple look would b enough to signal mammy wasn't happy and Sheba would adjust her behaviour.

Sorry but if the highlighted parts aren't humanising an animals behaviour, I don't know what is, which you said in your original post we should stop doing.

I'm not my dog's mammy, as they are a different species to me and they know that they are. I have a large pack of dogs, and I have never once seen a dog do an alpha roll to one of the others. The position of 'alpha' is very fluid with my lot, one would be in charge in one situation, and another would take over in another situation. I live with a pack of domestic dogs, not captive wolves, on which all the wolf, alpha/omega studies were based and, as DBB and Wibbs have said, have been completely disproved.

Do i hit my dogs? Nope. The one dog that I have here that I handreared just looks at me as if to say 'what are you doing?' if I, as DBB does, playfully raise my hand. However, quite a few of my others, who are all rescues, cower if the brush appears, or my hand goes up (not to hit them obviously, but they assume it is so). one of my poor dogs who came out of the pound will crawl into the smallest space he can find if there are raised voices in the house, and with a teenager here, it does happen. It is amazing how 12 dogs can all live together without killing each other and without me having to resort to hitting them to achieve it :rolleyes:

smiley_face400 · 21-06-2013 10:54AM

Having not read all posts on this thread I apologise if I repeat something said.

Violence or physical discipline is never the right way to go with dogs. In fact, it can make them very insecure which leads to viciousness more often than using other measures. I'd never even put my dog's nose in his wee if he pee'd in the house, it took 3 days to house train my current dog simply by pointing at the wee and saying "outside" every time he went in the house and then he got a small treat (the tiny Royal Canin ones are good as they're not fattening) and lots of praise when he went outside. We trained him all the usual tricks (sit, lie down, roll over, stay, etc.) in the same manner as well as teaching him to "high 5".

Positive reinforcement from a young age is the best way to go. They learn that if they do something they're not supposed to then they don't get your praise and/or a treat (I don't condone giving dogs treats All the time just in case that wasn't clear)

kylith · 21-06-2013 10:54AM

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

Your dog is walking better because 1) it's being choked and 2) it knows it will be hit if it doesn't. Imo it's bullying, not training; you are teaching your dog to fear your hands.

Anyone who thinks that an odd slap does no harm should see my Tegan. Genuinely one of the nicest, sweetest, most gentle and people loving dogs that you will ever meet. In her early life she was slapped and kicked to 'train' her before being dumped in the pound for being 'useless for hunting'. The rescue I got her from reported that she urinated when approached by people and tried to hide. She is still nervous of raised voices and sudden movements and she runs for cover with her tail between her legs if you try to step over her because she is afraid of people's feet. She is, tellingly for the 'a bit of a slap' trainers, now an enthusiastic, if untrained, ratter with a strong prey drive that had been completely stifled by fear caused by harsh training methods. I'll never know how badly she was treated; whether it was genuine abuse or the odd smack, but what I do know is the effect it had on her.

borderlinemeath · 21-06-2013 11:06AM

kylith wrote: »

Your dog is walking better because 1) it's being choked and 2) it knows it will be hit if it doesn't. Imo it's bullying, not training; you are teaching your dog to fear your hands.

Anyone who thinks that an odd slap does no harm should see my Tegan. Genuinely one of the nicest, sweetest, most gentle and people loving dogs that you will ever meet. In her early life she was slapped and kicked to 'train' her before being dumped in the pound for being 'useless for hunting'. The rescue I got her from reported that she urinated when approached by people and tried to hide. She is still nervous of raised voices and sudden movements and she runs for cover with her tail between her legs if you try to step over her because she is afraid of people's feet. She is, tellingly for the 'a bit of a slap' trainers, now an enthusiastic, if untrained, ratter with a strong prey drive that had been completely stifled by fear caused by harsh training methods. I'll never know how badly she was treated; whether it was genuine abuse or the odd smack, but what I do know is the effect it had on her.

Agreed. I have had a dog here that has been so badly effected by forceful training that he cannot be touched and looking him in the eye literally sets him shaking. He is terrified of humans to such an extent that he will not allow contact unless it is on his terms - ie he will come up and sniff you if he feels it's ok to, and has determined that you aren't a threat/going to try and pet him or touch him. Putting the lead on him to go for a walk is the closest contact he will bear because he enjoys his walks so much. He loves the company of other dogs and loves his grub, but humans have scarred him psychologically for life so it's very questionable as to whether he will ever enjoy tactile comfort. He'll tolerate the very few he can trust but for now, that number can be counted on one hand.

borderlinemeath · 21-06-2013 11:11AM

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Yea totally agree with the choke chain tbh pulling never bothered me I liked that she was excited. The thing is the slaps were very rare. Would U agree with shouting? Basically, if she over pushed her look she'd get a warning, then she'd get another warning and this would usually do the trick. I don't believe she associated this with having been given a slap 6 months previously. The slaps were used when she'd ignore d warnings and would have this bold defiant look about her! It was so cute but I couldn't give in.

Having said that, this dog got away with murder! There was a rule that Sheba wasn't allowed on d new leather suite, it lasted about a week!

Must add I used the reward/encouragement method with easy singles when training her to sit/roll over etc I know easy singles aren't good for dogs but I was only ten

I have a buck cat now and there ain't no training that little tear away ha ha

No, I don't shout. I used to have to shout for my girl to come back to me but since learning that she returns to praise I raise my voice to a high octave and whoop for her to come back, or use a whistle. Then while she's running back I'm yippee'ing and yay'ing that she's brilliant for coming back. It works so so much better. And they come back with a smile on their face rather than a sheepish or a bold look because they're looking forward to coming back because they know they're not going to be given out to.

kylith · 21-06-2013 12:12PM

I don't shout, but I do tend to put on my Stern Voice if I have to tell them something more than once and they know that when I use it I mean business. Slapping will only, as I said, teach the dog that your hands can hurt it. If they need to be disciplined for something (and only if you catch them in the act!) then separating them from you for a couple of minutes will get the job done.

T vanished into an overgrown field whilst on a walk at the weekend and it took everything I had not to roar and Eff and blind, but I knew that if she thought I was angry she'd never come back so I kept it as light as I could and gave her lots of pets when she reappeared; soaking wet, covered in burrs, and grinning like a loon.

mr bungle. · 21-06-2013 12:19PM

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

Tranceypoo · 21-06-2013 12:22PM

noddyone2 wrote: »

Never ever hit a dog. Voice is the tool to use. And yes, I have a dog, have always had dogs since childhood. Hitting teaches fear, nothing else. Here's an example: A neighbour has a terrier on a farm, she let him out last thing at night to pee, he chased a rabbit across the field. Eventually he came back and (in her words)''I gave him a good hiding''
Now, consider: What did that little dog learn from that?
In my opinion, he learnt that to come back means getting beaten.

h

Similar situation with one of my neighbours, old lady with a small terrier cross type dog, he's very barky and yappy and very very unfriendly, whenever I would pass with my dog he would chase us up the lane, she calls him, he ignores her, eventually comes back and she smacks him, I said to her 'you do realise you're teaching him that his reward for coming back to you is a smack, it's no wonder he doesn't come back to you', might as well have said it in Cantonese for all the notice she took, I no longer take that route because of that. Horrible old bat of a woman.

ShaShaBear · 21-06-2013 12:23PM

My dog got a few light slaps as a pup from my dad, this was about 8 1/2 years ago, and it was all my father ever knew about training dogs. I moved him in with me after my dad passed away and it brings tears to my eyes if I lift my purse off the table in a hurry, because Shadow will shriek and drop to the floor. I have never in my life lifted a hand to him. He knows by my tone of voice if what he is attempting to do is wrong. Mind you, we can tell just by watching the speed at which he attempts something if he knows it's wrong, eg, sneaking in a half crouch and slowly slipping a tongue out to pick up a biscuit sitting on a saucer on the coffee table. He never takes his eye off you the entire time. All I have to do is say "Shaaaaadowww?" and he sits down and leaves it.

Coincidentally, every trick he knows (which ranges from sit to opening and closing the all the doors, which he knows by name) he has learned in the past two years using purely positive reinforcement from me.

Tell your friend the next time their child does something they shouldn't, to give them a good slap. Then present them with the opportunity to do it again. I guarantee you that your friend will see the fear in their eyes, because even the thought of doing it again will trigger the fear response. And if for some reason the temptation is absolutely too great and they do it again anyway, watch how utterly terrified that child will be, likely actually hiding from your friend to avoid the inevitable slap they got. Now, remember that the dog feels exactly the same, but cannot communicate that fear the same way as a child.

And above all, remember that a dog is not as submissive as a child. You keep hitting them and eventually they will simply tell you to p1ss off, with their teeth

So what, you hit them again? You are simply provoking the dog into defending itself, and then the poor thing gets dumped in the pound, terrified of people's hands, because someone couldn't be bothered to train it properly.

Gumbi · 21-06-2013 12:24PM

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

That's not the right question to ask. The meat of the matter is, do you need to slap the dog to get the respect you need and reprimand it? No. If I'm playing with my dog and she bites me hard. I'll say "HEY, NO" very sternly. That's her cue to calm down. And she knows this. And she calms down. And I didn't have to hit her to teach her this.

Tranceypoo · 21-06-2013 12:27PM

borderlinemeath wrote: »

No, I don't shout. I used to have to shout for my girl to come back to me but since learning that she returns to praise I raise my voice to a high octave and whoop for her to come back, or use a whistle. Then while she's running back I'm yippee'ing and yay'ing that she's brilliant for coming back. It works so so much better. And they come back with a smile on their face rather than a sheepish or a bold look because they're looking forward to coming back because they know they're not going to be given out to.

I do that too (on the rare occassions they would be off lead), works especially well for the younger dog (who is a bit hand shy, I've a feeling she got some smacks), it's so lovely to see her running back and straight into me for a big old cuddling session, even if I'm saying to her 'you little fecker I could kill you (for rolling in something/chasing something etc), as long as I'm saying it in a high pitched happy voice it doesn't matter!!

21-06-2013 12:28PM

If I get a nip or scratch while playing, I exclaim "ow! That hurts!" and possibly put them back down on the ground, and I get an apologetic lick and no more of it ...
No need to be hitting at all
It's all in the tone of voice

I need to find a way to get osky to stop barking at every noise while we're chilling out though, he has enough walks and toys and what have you to keep him occupied, and apparently he'll only do this "guarding" business when I'm around, he doesn't bark like that when I'm not...

ShaShaBear · 21-06-2013 12:31PM

bluewolf wrote: »

If I get a nip or scratch while playing, I exclaim "ow! That hurts!" and possibly put them back down on the ground, and I get an apologetic lick and no more of it ...
No need to be hitting at all
It's all in the tone of voice

I need to find a way to get osky to stop barking at every noise while we're chilling out though, he has enough walks and toys and what have you to keep him occupied, and apparently he'll only do this "guarding" business when I'm around, he doesn't bark like that when I'm not...

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

21-06-2013 12:33PM

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

That's really clever, I'll try that. I've tried reassuring him that he doesn't need to bark or be worried, but I don't think it's that

borderlinemeath · 21-06-2013 12:34PM

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

No, but I've never been bitten by a dog. And I'm around them all day every day. good ones, bad ones, big ones, small ones, ones that are frightened at first of new situations, ones that may not get on with others, well trained, not so well trained, dogs that may have a disability etc. But I've managed not to get bitten and if I did I would imagine it would be my own fault for not reading the dogs signal correctly.

wolfpawnat · 21-06-2013 12:35PM

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

^^^^

Exactly this. Make the dog know you have it covered unless you command otherwise, praise the good, "shh" "ah-ah" or what not the unwanted. As for the accidental nips, a yelp or "ouch" is perfect.

ShaShaBear · 21-06-2013 12:41PM

bluewolf wrote: »

That's really clever, I'll try that. I've tried reassuring him that he doesn't need to bark or be worried, but I don't think it's that

You'll get a lot of fun and enjoyment out of it. I advise you try to do them in quick succession, because we had a bit of an issue in between tricks where Shadow loved to demonstrate his amazing ability to bark, whether you asked him to or not. He would simply parade himself over to you, bark in your face, and then wait for his treat :P But as it stands now, we can tell him to shush before he starts barking (since we know who and what he likes to bark at) and it keeps him quiet. Slowly but surely he has actually started to associate the shush word with not barking at these things at all!

Is it ok to hit your dog?

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