What DO you think

08-08-2013 10:32AM

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

As for sex as an entitlement? It kind of is a basic human need. I for one, would not be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who a) disliked sex or b) used sex as a bargaining tool. I would love to see what the statistics are if you asked all men "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" You're hungry? You buy some food. You're thirsty? You buy a drink. You're horny? Um... I guess you could, um, try to get into a relationship with someone? Give it a couple of weeks. Sure... But like they may not want to have sex.. Um... Have you tried compulsive masturbation?

Look. Most men in Ireland don't or have not gone to a pro. It's not the culture, it's generally seedy and it's wrought with danger. But for women to say that if a man cannot seduce a woman in an honest way then he should not be allowed to have any sexual gratification is absurd.[/QUOTE]

Its about an inner quality thats hard to define, I will make a good attempt at explaining it. Say two couple got married have a boom time mortgage had been well paid etc now things have changed they have children and very little money and on top of that because of some illness the wife has sex is off the agenda for a few months, life is very stressful and wont be getting better for a long time.

What is the inner quality in one man that will make him think.. you( my wife ) before me at this stage in life I have made a commitment to my family and to this life it is not what I though it was going to be but while it is hard thats life and I am ploughing on with it.

verses

Another man in the same situation who is resentful and cranky at the way its has all turned out illogically blame his wife is annoyed that he has not got the money to go to out. Eventually he decides he is not feeling it anymore and is off.

What make the 50% of men who DID NOT GO to a brothel on a golfing trip say na its not for me.

We are our choices.

Kold · 08-08-2013 10:34AM

I don't think the actions of a single man reflect on the actions of a man who has made a commitment. It's quite cynical to make the connection.

CarlDunne1979 · 08-08-2013 10:35AM

Kold wrote: »

This is the crux of much of my problems with many women's opinions on prostitution. They feel that all men should be alpha males yet with enlightened views on equality. They have a very blurred sense of manhood and believe that they should tick all the boxes before they may be granted access into their sacred vaginas, anything below that is 'not worth their time'.

Then they get angry at undersexed men using PUA methods, describing them as misogynistic. I would agree, just as I don't want to pay for sex, I don't want to act one way to manipulate women. Women give these same tips on these forums! "If a man acts this way, I'd definitely be more willing." PUA methods are popular because they work on a large portion of women. They work on such rigidly judgmental people who see themselves as a prize and want most of all, a caricature of the tall handsome alpha male. Alpha male in my head is a byword for asshole btw.

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

As for sex as an entitlement? It kind of is a basic human need. I for one, would not be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who a) disliked sex or b) used sex as a bargaining tool. I would love to see what the statistics are if you asked all men "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" You're hungry? You buy some food. You're thirsty? You buy a drink. You're horny? Um... I guess you could, um, try to get into a relationship with someone? Give it a couple of weeks. Sure... But like they may not want to have sex.. Um... Have you tried compulsive masturbation?

Look. Most men in Ireland don't or have not gone to a pro. It's not the culture, it's generally seedy and it's wrought with danger. But for women to say that if a man cannot seduce a woman in an honest way then he should not be allowed to have any sexual gratification is absurd.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It seems many women think men who fit their rigid standards should be 'rewarded' with sex, while the rest should be condemned to celibacy. It's hardly in any way easy for the majority of men in Ireland to get sex. Neither is it for men in any other country in the world mind you, but at least in some other cultures prostitution is condoned somewhat. In Ireland prostitution is heavily condemned, not for moral reasons but because it is not something you can take pride in doing i.e. it does not project status, and as males we're told by our culture we should always be acting the "alpha" at any given moment. For the same reason it's taboo for men to discuss their emotions, contributing to a much higher rate of suicide among men etc.

strobe · 08-08-2013 10:39AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

As for sex as an entitlement? It kind of is a basic human need. I for one, would not be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who a) disliked sex or b) used sex as a bargaining tool. I would love to see what the statistics are if you asked all men "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" You're hungry? You buy some food. You're thirsty? You buy a drink. You're horny? Um... I guess you could, um, try to get into a relationship with someone? Give it a couple of weeks. Sure... But like they may not want to have sex.. Um... Have you tried compulsive masturbation?

Look. Most men in Ireland don't or have not gone to a pro. It's not the culture, it's generally seedy and it's wrought with danger. But for women to say that if a man cannot seduce a woman in an honest way then he should not be allowed to have any sexual gratification is absurd.

Its about an inner quality thats hard to define, I will make a good attempt at explaining it. Say two couple got married have a boom time mortgage had been well paid etc now things have changed they have children and very little money and on top of that because of some illness the wife has sex is off the agenda for a few months, life is very stressful and wont be getting better for a long time.

What is the inner quality in one man that will make him think.. you( my wife ) before me at this stage in life I have made a commitment to my family and to this life it is not what I though it was going to be but while it is hard thats life and I am ploughing on with it.

verses

Another man in the same situation who is resentful and cranky at the way its has all turned out illogically blame his wife is annoyed that he has not got the money to go to out. Eventually he decides he is not feeling it anymore and is off.

What make the 50% of men who DID NOT GO to a brothel on a golfing trip say na its not for me.

We are our choices.

Well there's obviously a difference between the cheating on a wife with a prostitute while away, and the having been to a prostitute whilst single, scenarios.

Is your issue so that you feel a man who has been to a prostitute would be more likely to cheat as he has in your opinion diaplayed a lower capacity for going without sex?

Princess Peach · 08-08-2013 10:44AM

Kold wrote: »

I don't think the actions of a single man reflect on the actions of a man who has made a commitment. It's quite cynical to make the connection.

It's not his actions, it's his current values and beliefs that would be the issue for me. That sex is a right and something you can't live without for a short period, rather than how I value it.

Not too illogical to want to be with someone who holds similar views to you on what you think is important.

CarlDunne1979 · 08-08-2013 10:44AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Its about an inner quality thats hard to define, I will make a good attempt at explaining it. Say two couple got married have a boom time mortgage had been well paid etc now things have changed they have children and very little money and on top of that because of some illness the wife has sex is off the agenda for a few months, life is very stressful and wont be getting better for a long time.

What is the inner quality in one man that will make him think.. you( my wife ) before me at this stage in life I have made a commitment to my family and to this life it is not what I though it was going to be but while it is hard thats life and I am ploughing on with it.

verses

Another man in the same situation who is resentful and cranky at the way its has all turned out illogically blame his wife is annoyed that he has not got the money to go to out. Eventually he decides he is not feeling it anymore and is off.

What make the 50% of men who DID NOT GO to a brothel on a golfing trip say na its not for me.

We are our choices.

You're equating two completely unrelated choices, as an excuse to put men in boxes labelled 'good man' or 'bad man', and things aren't that simple.

Men who have a high sex drive are more likely to visit a prostitute, this in no way indicates they will abandon their families during financial difficulties, as you've just suggested.

Kold · 08-08-2013 10:46AM

Princess Peach wrote: »

It's not his actions, it's his current values and beliefs that would be the issue for me. That sex is a right and something you can't live without for a short period, rather than how I value it.

Not too illogical to want to be with someone who holds similar views to you on what you think is important.

What's a short period?

CarlDunne1979 · 08-08-2013 10:52AM

Princess Peach wrote: »

It's not his actions, it's his current values and beliefs that would be the issue for me. That sex is a right and something you can't live without for a short period, rather than how I value it.

Not too illogical to want to be with someone who holds similar views to you on what you think is important.

No one is claiming sex is a right. Neither is anyone claiming they cannot live without it, especially for a short period of time. However, for some men, should they go what they feel to be a lengthily time without sexual contact, it will cause them some level of discomfort. Just as say you might go through some level of discomfort should you be isolated socially from your friends and family for a certain period of time, to give an example. For these men, they have no option to gain release from their frustration, other than to visit a prostitute. This in no way indicates they are morally indecent, any more than you buying an ice cream on a hot day does.

08-08-2013 10:57AM

strobe wrote: »

Its about an inner quality thats hard to define, I will make a good attempt at explaining it. Say two couple got married have a boom time mortgage had been well paid etc now things have changed they have children and very little money and on top of that because of some illness the wife has sex is off the agenda for a few months, life is very stressful and wont be getting better for a long time.

What is the inner quality in one man that will make him think.. you( my wife ) before me at this stage in life I have made a commitment to my family and to this life it is not what I though it was going to be but while it is hard thats life and I am ploughing on with it.

verses

Another man in the same situation who is resentful and cranky at the way its has all turned out illogically blame his wife is annoyed that he has not got the money to go to out. Eventually he decides he is not feeling it anymore and is off.

What make the 50% of men who DID NOT GO to a brothel on a golfing trip say na its not for me.

We are our choices.

Well there's obviously a difference between the cheating on a wife with a prostitute while away, and the having been to a prostitute whilst single, scenarios.

Is your issue so that you feel a man who has been to a prostitute would be more likely to cheat as he has in your opinion displayed a lower threshold for going without sex than not?[/QUOTE]

No its not that he is more likely to cheat that really got nothing to do with it.

Our thoughts and action and beliefs make and define us, each one acts with the other to form a person and their personality, Men who think of sex as an entitlement or sex a reward for being a good boy or gauge themselves against other men or who need stuff for example a status care in order to feel good about them selves are unlikely to have an inner secure sense of them selves, Which means when hard times comes ( which they might do ) they don't have the inner strength to face it because their whole life is a sort of I want and I deserve a sort of deep selfishness if you like.

I sound like I am hard on Men I am not at all I have great respect for the vast majority of men and I do think they often have very hard lives.

Princess Peach · 08-08-2013 10:57AM

Kold wrote: »

What's a short period?

I don't know if I can say, having never been in the situation where I had to choose to be in a relationship under these circumstances. I'd hear a guy out if I was and it would probably depend on a few factors really.

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

No one is claiming sex is a right. Neither is anyone claiming they cannot live without it, especially for a short period of time. However, for some men, should they go what they feel to be a lengthily time without sexual contact, it will cause them some level of discomfort. Just as say you might go through some level of discomfort should you be isolated socially from your friends and family for a certain period of time, to give an example. For these men, they have no option to gain release from their frustration, other than to visit a prostitute. This in no way indicates they are morally indecent, any more than you buying an ice cream on a hot day does.

Grand, I just probably wouldn't want to be in a relationship with them.

CarlDunne1979 · 08-08-2013 11:04AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Our thoughts and action and beliefs make and define us, each one acts with the other to form a person and their personality, Men who think of sex as an entitlement or sex a reward for being a good boy or gauge themselves against other men or who need stuff for example a status care in order to feel good about them selves are unlikely to have an inner secure sense of them selves, Which means when hard times comes ( which they might do ) they don't have the inner strength to face it because their who life is a sort of I want and I deserve a sort of deep selfishness if you like.

I sound like I am hard on Men I am not at all I have great respect for the vast majority of men and I do think they often have very hard lives.

Sounds EXACTLY like the "alphas" in our society who don't need to go to prostitutes because they can get women easily.

08-08-2013 11:21AM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

You're equating two completely unrelated choices, as an excuse to put men in boxes labelled 'good man' or 'bad man', and things aren't that simple.

Men who have a high sex drive are more likely to visit a prostitute, this in no way indicates they will abandon their families during financial difficulties, as you've just suggested.

It is nothing to do with good men or bad men it is to do with value and how those were acquired and what informs those value and how those value affect how you live your life and choice you make.

meeeeh · 08-08-2013 11:37AM

Kold wrote: »

This is the crux of much of my problems with many women's opinions on prostitution. They feel that all men should be alpha males yet with enlightened views on equality. They have a very blurred sense of manhood and believe that they should tick all the boxes before they may be granted access into their sacred vaginas, anything below that is 'not worth their time'.

Then they get angry at undersexed men using PUA methods, describing them as misogynistic. I would agree, just as I don't want to pay for sex, I don't want to act one way to manipulate women. Women give these same tips on these forums! "If a man acts this way, I'd definitely be more willing." PUA methods are popular because they work on a large portion of women. They work on such rigidly judgmental people who see themselves as a prize and want most of all, a caricature of the tall handsome alpha male. Alpha male in my head is a byword for asshole btw.

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

As for sex as an entitlement? It kind of is a basic human need. I for one, would not be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who a) disliked sex or b) used sex as a bargaining tool. I would love to see what the statistics are if you asked all men "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" You're hungry? You buy some food. You're thirsty? You buy a drink. You're horny? Um... I guess you could, um, try to get into a relationship with someone? Give it a couple of weeks. Sure... But like they may not want to have sex.. Um... Have you tried compulsive masturbation?

Look. Most men in Ireland don't or have not gone to a pro. It's not the culture, it's generally seedy and it's wrought with danger. But for women to say that if a man cannot seduce a woman in an honest way then he should not be allowed to have any sexual gratification is absurd.

My reply was intentionally confrontational because of all the references to being illogical, irrational and so on. You can get quite a few fairly rational arguments why not to date someone who sleeps with prostitutes. But we have our own logic when selecting a partner. I don't consider myself any kind of a prize, my partner is an overweight, workaholic smoker and I'm pretty sure that each of those would be no no for a lot of people. They don't bother me and I think he is great but I don't go around complaining those who wouldn't date him are irrational, stuck up or whatever.

For whatever reasons, as illogical as you might think they are, women (and men) can refuse to date someone who frequents prostitutes. And because of relatively low numbers of the people that admit doing it, their chances won't diminish significantly.

As for PUA methods, I wish people would steer clear of the pseudo psychological nonsense. It might improve their chances.

strobe · 08-08-2013 02:35PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Our thoughts and action and beliefs make and define us, each one acts with the other to form a person and their personality, Men who think of sex as an entitlement or sex a reward for being a good boy or gauge themselves against other men or who need stuff for example a status care in order to feel good about them selves are unlikely to have an inner secure sense of them selves, Which means when hard times comes ( which they might do ) they don't have the inner strength to face it because their whole life is a sort of I want and I deserve a sort of deep selfishness if you like.

So it's that you believe that a man using the services of a prostitute would suggest to you that he felt he had an entitlement to sex or that he saw sex as a reward for being a good boy or similar things?

So to follow along with that, if you got to know a man very well and all his words and actions and behaviour etc showed that he didn't feel that way about sex, then him having been with a prostitute would not be an issue for you?

Say, to go back to your previous post, if he had been in a long term relationship and his gf got sick and times were tough and sex was unavailable and he acted in the way you describe as your prefered way etc... but he had also used the sercices of a prostitute before or after that relationship, you would have no problem?

meeeeh · 08-08-2013 02:48PM

The complete lack of ability of deduction here really amazes me.

X: I wouldn't trust a man who frequents prostitutes...
Y: what about a man with disability?
X: no
Y: what about someone who is dying
X: no
Y: but what if that would stop them raping someone
X: no
Y: So you think being with prostitute and rape is the same?

Disclaimer: the above example does not necessarily represent my views but it does represent a lot of arguments made in the last two days.

iwantmydinner · 08-08-2013 03:13PM

Kold wrote: »

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

F*ck this... women are to blame for misogyny now?? Are you being serious??

jaffacakesyum · 08-08-2013 03:42PM

Kold wrote: »

This is the crux of much of my problems with many women's opinions on prostitution. They feel that all men should be alpha males yet with enlightened views on equality. They have a very blurred sense of manhood and believe that they should tick all the boxes before they may be granted access into their sacred vaginas, anything below that is 'not worth their time'.

Yes because all women are the same. You are making HUGE assumptions on what women believe and what women this and that. Get over yourself. You can't speak for what most women believe no more than I can.

Then they get angry at undersexed men using PUA methods, describing them as misogynistic. I would agree, just as I don't want to pay for sex, I don't want to act one way to manipulate women. Women give these same tips on these forums! "If a man acts this way, I'd definitely be more willing." PUA methods are popular because they work on a large portion of women. They work on such rigidly judgmental people who see themselves as a prize and want most of all, a caricature of the tall handsome alpha male. Alpha male in my head is a byword for asshole btw.

I don't give two fúcks about alpha male this, alpha male that, but there's plenty of guys on tGC who will go on about it. I find the people who talk about alpha males are the ones into the PUA shíte that is a load of crap.

Honestly, women who are just waiting to pounce on one aspect of a man to discount him as an unworthy loser are the reason misogyny exists.

Seriously? Could you elaborate on this?!

The reason misogyny exists is a complicated topic but basically existss because historically men were always 'superior' to women.

As for sex as an entitlement? It kind of is a basic human need. I for one, would not be willing to be in a relationship with a woman who a) disliked sex or b) used sex as a bargaining tool. I would love to see what the statistics are if you asked all men "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" You're hungry? You buy some food. You're thirsty? You buy a drink. You're horny? Um... I guess you could, um, try to get into a relationship with someone? Give it a couple of weeks. Sure... But like they may not want to have sex.. Um... Have you tried compulsive masturbation?

Sex is NOT an entitlement. For me it is a basic human need. For you as well obviously. I know celibate people who are perfectly happy however, and for them it is not a need right now.

I hate this whole "poor men, not getting enough sex" thing. The majority of my male friends get a LOT more sex than I do. If you asked me the question "do you feel you are having enough sex in your life?" I would say hell no. It still doesn't make sex an entitlement for me. And it still would not make me in a million years use a prostitute.

Look. Most men in Ireland don't or have not gone to a pro. It's not the culture, it's generally seedy and it's wrought with danger. But for women to say that if a man cannot seduce a woman in an honest way then he should not be allowed to have any sexual gratification is absurd.

I don't think anybodys saying that. A man is allowed (well, not legally in this country but anyway...) to visit a prostitute if he so chooses. But he wouldn't be the man for me or a lot of other women on this thread. And the reasons have been explained pretty clearly if anyones bothered to read the thread.

clairefontaine · 08-08-2013 05:42PM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

No, that's not the point. The point is that men feel prompted to pay while courting, indicating there is a misbalance of interest from the two parties, needing to be balanced out by the male side in the form of payment, exactly the same thing as prostitution, just to a lesser degree. Don't try and twist it around to make out that the majority of the male population feel entitled to access to women's bodies should they buy them drinks.

"Who is fine paying for sex" What if that man had no other option? He wouldn't necessarily be fine with paying for it, but rather he had no other choice.

Seriously? One group of guys who used prostitutes speak disrespectfully on the matter and you brand all guys who do it as a result? That's fine, but you can't claim to be a reasonable/non-pretentious/unassuming person.

Really??? You are really criticising men who judge women who have casual sex, while at the exact same time you yourself are judging men who have sex with prostitutes??? How hypocritical can you get. How is having paid casual sex with someone and having non-paid casual sex with someone ANY different? And before you say "because he's paying for it duhh", give me any reason why that's in any way a substantial difference. You can't.

I think because there are differences.

If you are paying someone, that person is not choosing you, just like when I go to buy apples, the apples don't choose me, the prostitute becomes a good, a commodity, a service.

So you are also buying some other assumptions, like you won't get expectations from her along the way, if she gets pregnant, you know nothing about it and are off the hook. You wont getbtext messages. you are not expected to remember birthdays and anniversaries. She also wont blab to your wife or anyone else. It's sex without emotional or practical consequence. Because you have paid to let yourself free of those potential consequences.

Pug160 · 08-08-2013 05:50PM

Even if you don't like the thought of a man paying for sex, how would you even know he had done so? Like I said in another post, I'd tell the truth if I was asked, but it's not usually a topic that comes up. What if you found out years into a good relationship? There's an assumption by some people here that a man who uses an escort will automatically have a certain mindset. But there are so many different situations. In some cases it's not just a simple case of ''getting off'' either, it's about wanting human contact and intimacy. A lot of people can end up going a little bit mad if they don't experience any sort of intimacy over a long period of time. I personally don't think paying for sex is (in most cases) is generally a good idea but I wouldn't like to think that I'm much less worthy in some people's eyes just because I've experienced it. I still think there's a lot of social conditioning at play here.

From what I gather, quite a lot of escort users are married. They arguably make up a larger proportion of an escort's clientele than unattractive and socially inept people. From what I've read and studied, a lot of users actually look quite normal. This last paragraph is irrelevant to the discussion but I do see a lot of old misconceptions still popping up.

And once again. prostitution itself is legal.

clairefontaine · 08-08-2013 05:52PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Even if you don't like the thought of a man paying for sex, how would you even know he had done so? Like I said in another post, I'd tell the truth if I was asked, but it's not usually a topic that comes up. What if you found out years into a good relationship? There's an assumption by some people here that a man who uses an escort will automatically have a certain mindset. But there are so many different situations. In some cases it's not just a simple case of ''getting off'' either, it's about wanting human contact and intimacy. A lot of people can end up going a little bit mad if they don't experience any sort of intimacy over a long period of time. I personally don't think paying for sex is (in most cases) is generally a good idea but I wouldn't like to think that I'm much less worthy in some people's eyes just because I've experienced it. I still think there's a lot of social conditioning at play here.

From what I gather, quite a lot of escort users are married. They arguably make up a larger proportion of an escort's clientele than unattractive and socially inept people. From what I've read and studied, a lot of users actually look quite normal. This last paragraph is irrelevant to the discussion but I do see a lot of old misconceptions still popping up.

And once again. prostitution itself is legal.

I think it's more sad than sinister in a lot of cases. Sometimes it's creepy.and sometimes its very very sad.

jaffacakesyum · 08-08-2013 10:13PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Even if you don't like the thought of a man paying for sex, how would you even know he had done so? Like I said in another post, I'd tell the truth if I was asked, but it's not usually a topic that comes up. What if you found out years into a good relationship? There's an assumption by some people here that a man who uses an escort will automatically have a certain mindset. But there are so many different situations. In some cases it's not just a simple case of ''getting off'' either, it's about wanting human contact and intimacy. A lot of people can end up going a little bit mad if they don't experience any sort of intimacy over a long period of time. I personally don't think paying for sex is (in most cases) is generally a good idea but I wouldn't like to think that I'm much less worthy in some people's eyes just because I've experienced it. I still think there's a lot of social conditioning at play here.

From what I gather, quite a lot of escort users are married. They arguably make up a larger proportion of an escort's clientele than unattractive and socially inept people. From what I've read and studied, a lot of users actually look quite normal. This last paragraph is irrelevant to the discussion but I do see a lot of old misconceptions still popping up.

And once again. prostitution itself is legal.

That's not what the thread is about though .We're talking - would you date/get in a relationship with somebody who has used prostitutes in the past? Meaning if you knew they used prostitutes would you get in a relationship with them and many women have answered no. We're not talking about 10 years into a relationship and you found out what would happen. However, if you want to discuss that I'd be happy to contribute.

cloudatlas · 08-08-2013 10:35PM

Kold wrote: »

I'll share my opinion but I fear it will be completely lambasted.

First of all, I don't use prostitutes. However I have lived in areas where prostitution is endemic and I would not judge a man who does go to them as long as he treats them with respect and I also don't judge prostitutes as long as they aren't thieves.

The problem with a lot of Asia is that there isn't much in between the 'proper' girls who you have to see for ages until you get a whiff and then they expect marriage and kid and actual working girls. I've been rather sexless for a little while as I try to seek a girl who likes to keep things casual and on top of all my other criteria for a suitable partner, this is difficult. I have friends who often go with customers to make a little extra money but the fact is, in almost every case the girl can say no. You need to realise that being a working girl is actually easier and more lucrative than working in a rice field, a restaurant or whatever. Often these girls are actually looking for a western boyfriend because a) they have money and b) they often treat girls much better than the locals.

So a lot of the time, it's easier for a man to see a working girl than to court a young lady and then get seen as a scumbag when they don't put a ring on their finger. Personally, I don't really like that option as it's so short term and blowing my load once mechanically is not the sexual relief I'm seeking.

I'm not saying all but a lot of Western women are so hung up on prostitution but have no problems with getting their smelly feet soaked and massaged, or buying knock off clothing and handbags made in sweatshops. It's all exploitation. I think it boils down to a sexual politics thing, the fear of rape, or else women think men need to earn sex. The men do earn sex. Only whereas at home they might earn it from charm and good looks, over here they earn it from having money. Although money matters at home and charm and good looks also gets you far over here.

People complain about the old men who come out here and take advantage of the young girls (and boys). I've met a lot of punters, arseholes exist, but I've also met lots of lovely older men who worked all their lives, never married, come out here and maybe find a wife 10 or 20 years younger and I honestly see no wrongdoing. By Western standards this man is a loser, well f*ck judgemental sheltered people who point the finger. If a man provides, respects and is good to a woman, let him eat cake.
Fairy tales rarely exist out here.

Although the salaries Thai women earn in prostitution may be more attractive than working in the fields does that make their choice a free one? This kind of work is a kind of economic coercion. This man not only decided to do this but he decided to do it where he could do it the cheapest, further degrading the ' 'service' (as you say) on offer. There is probably a big psychological impact on these women. Their bodies are being instrumentalised, in my opinion that is degrading. Although sometimes prostitutes get paid highly how free are their choices? I'd like to be with a man who values my choice to be with him if I want to and not someone who would take that right away from someone who's choice is not as voluntary as we assume it is.

meeeeh · 08-08-2013 11:21PM

I remember sitting on a train station in Bangkok. Two Italians in their forties were there with two Thai girls. The girls had pink Hello Kitty notebooks, pencils, pencil cases and bags. I know Thai girls can look a lot younger than they are but those two looked 13 to me. They were probably couple of years older but those two men had the same western perception of age as me. Nobady around there bat an eyelid. Sex tourism in Thailand makes me sick. I know not everyone is exploited, I know sometimes turists get conned and I know I can't apply my western mindset to the whole world but neither I have any understanding or sympathy for men (or women) who feel they have to travel thousands of miles to find obliging hookers.

starling · 08-08-2013 11:39PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I remember sitting on a train station in Bangkok. Two Italians in their forties were there with two Thai girls. The girls had pink Hello Kitty notebooks, pencils, pencil cases and bags. I know Thai girls can look a lot younger than they are but those two looked 13 to me. They were probably couple of years older but those two men had the same western perception of age as me. Nobady around there bat an eyelid. Sex tourism in Thailand makes me sick. I know not everyone is exploited, I know sometimes turists get conned and I know I can't apply my western mindset to the whole world but neither I have any understanding or sympathy for men (or women) who feel they have to travel thousands of miles to find obliging hookers.

That is sickening. In fairness "would you go out with someone who'd used a prostitute" is a different question from "would you want to have a relationship with some sicko who'd travel thousands of miles so he could fûck a child."

meeeeh · 09-08-2013 12:09AM

starling wrote: »

That is sickening. In fairness "would you go out with someone who'd used a prostitute" is a different question from "would you want to have a relationship with some sicko who'd travel thousands of miles so he could fûck a child."

I know and I'm not comparing them. I also know two farmers who married Thai women and they did it because of loneliness and who knows maybe it works for all of them. I'm not overly prudish, I had no problem waking around red light districts, going to strip clubs and neither did my two male friends. When we saw that group it was like kick in the guts for all of us. Sometimes those districts are interesting, exotic or even funny but then you get a glimpse of the darker side. And as beautiful as Thailand is it is that image that I remember most clearly. I guess that's the reason I described it here although it is not overly relevant. The irony is that the girls seemed very happy.

carolinespring · 09-08-2013 12:22AM

No. could not be in a relationship with a man who had little respect for women. How would he feel if someone was paying for the services of his Mother, Sister or Daughter?? Sex should never be for sale.

April O Neill · 09-08-2013 02:55AM

MaxWig wrote: »

I think a healthy sexual life is an important facet of a happy life.

I think the 'mistake' that many people make is to assume that if it is sex with a prostitute, it is not healthy.

Dunno if it's not healthy as such, but it's not going to be based on any kind of attraction, or maybe just one-way attraction, which is a huge factor.

newport2 · 09-08-2013 01:18PM

Honest question, do you feel the same about pornography as prostitution?

If someone believes paying a women for sex is wrong, how can they defend someone paying to watch a women paid to have sex?

MaxWig · 09-08-2013 01:27PM

April O Neill wrote: »

Dunno if it's not healthy as such, but it's not going to be based on any kind of attraction, or maybe just one-way attraction, which is a huge factor.

A lot of the comments have alluded to this - that sex with a prostitute is not magical, and could never blossom into a 'relationship'. Or perhaps more accurately, that it is not 'relationship' based.

But how many one-night stands are exactly the same.

I for one have one-night stands in the past, and the only criteria I employed in identifying a partner was gender, and certain superficial characteristics.
I didn't care about name, profession, hobbies, interests, where she lived, her hopes aspirations, dreams - nothing really.

It was just sex - without potential.

I know the response will be that at least there was no money involved - it was two adults who 'wanted to be there', and that prostitution is different, because cash changes 'everything'.

Truth be told though, I'm not sure 'I wanted to be there'. I was satisfying a pretty base desire. And the degree that I 'wanted to be there' was fully expressed after we had 'finished', i.e. either I left, or my partner in crime left.

No numbers exchanged etc.

One could argue that the desire to 'get money', is not dissimilar to the desire to 'get off'.

The prostitute-client 'relationship' is mutually beneficial in much the same way that a one-night stand is. If it wasn't, it wouldn't exist

cloudatlas · 09-08-2013 01:46PM

MaxWig wrote: »

The prostitute-client 'relationship' is mutually beneficial in much the same way that a one-night stand is. If it wasn't, it wouldn't exist

Choice matters. I assume your partner can walk away at any point whereas it would be more difficult for a women where money has changed hands to walk away from an agreement. Your friend is not there because she feels economically coerced she is there because she wants to have fun. Also 'satisfaction guaranteed' is something you may not purport

. Choices made under pressure are not necessarily all that voluntary. In your case it is voluntary. In my opinion there are some goods and services that should be highly priced or shouldn't exist on the free market.

What DO you think

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