Vermin Count Competition - Kerry R.G.C.

Backfire · 15-09-2013 07:52PM #1

Hi guys,

Yesterday the clubs in Kerry submitted their vermin legs and tails for the count, which some people here reading this should know.

Apparently, according to the chairman of my local gun club, the rule for next year's count is the use of the bird's wings instead of their legs.

As far as I know, this is due to the fact that clubs were submitting rook legs as grey crow legs and jackdaw legs as magpie legs yes?

What I do not understand is why are rooks and jackdaws not allowed for the vermin count? I mean, the NARGC themselves specifically regard these two species as vermin along with the grey crow, magpie, etc

Direct quote from the NARGC website:

The control of vermin is very much the main part of Game Management and Release. Winged Vermin: Grey crow, rooks, magpies, jackdaws and jays. Ground Vermin: Rats, mice, mink, fox and grey squirrel.

So why aren't they allowed to be used by the Kerry Regional Game Council's count?

Vegeta · 15-09-2013 08:01PM

What reason does the Kerry NARGC give when asked the same question?

If you do want them counted can you not ask your club committee to put forward a motion that they are included, putting it to a vote?

Backfire · 15-09-2013 08:06PM

Vegeta wrote: »

What reason does the Kerry NARGC give when asked the same question?

If you do want them counted can you not ask your club committee to put forward a motion that they are included, putting it to a vote?

That is a good idea and its a motion that should be put forward to the Kerry Regional Game Council, with the backing of more than my club, but all the clubs in Kerry.

Yet, another thing which annoys me about this whole vermin competition. This competition is also a country-wide competition, where results are compared between many counties around Ireland. I am not sure if all counties are involved, but there is a cup up for grabs, a cup that the Pallas/Kilflynn club here in Kerry have won in the last 2 years in a row.

Yet, how can this be considered a fair competition if clubs around Ireland are abiding by different rules. Some clubs in ireland do count rooks and jackdaws, some have different point scoring systems, etc.

It just seems to be a badly run competition.

Tawny Owl · 15-09-2013 08:14PM

All Counties need to have the same rules, and be counting the same vermin in the same way, other wise you may all kick this into touch and drop out, it has to be fair, best of luck getting this sorted.

richiedel123 · 15-09-2013 09:03PM

Backfire wrote: »

That is a good idea and its a motion that should be put forward to the Kerry Regional Game Council, with the backing of more than my club, but all the clubs in Kerry.

Yet, another thing which annoys me about this whole vermin
competition. This competition is also a country-wide competition, where results are compared between many counties around Ireland. I am not sure if all counties are involved, but there is a cup up for grabs, a cup that the Pallas/Kilflynn club here in Kerry have won in the last 2 years in a row.

Yet, how can this be considered a fair competition if clubs around Ireland are abiding by different rules. Some clubs in ireland do count rooks and jackdaws, some have different point scoring systems, etc.

It just seems to be a badly run competition.

As far as I know the nargc send out the point system to all regional councils and they are supposed to go by this point system. We are in tipp and we don't count rooks and jackdaws either.

Backfire · 15-09-2013 09:17PM

richiedel123 wrote: »

As far as I know the nargc send out the point system to all regional councils and they are supposed to go by this point system. We are in tipp and we don't count rooks and jackdaws either.

Do you send in the legs or the wings of the birds?

I have already read here on boards.ie in older topics that some counties do accept rooks for the count but that they only count for 1 point or something.

Still, I don't understand why they are not counted as vermin in these 'Vermin competition'. I believe they should be.

ace86 · 15-09-2013 09:33PM

well my own club submitted our count but I thought it was very bad form of the kerry commitee to tell all club members on the day that they are going from legs to wings nxt yr without at least giving lads a few weeks notice before the count.I have got a phonecall from a fellow with a few legs as he didnt get a chance to give me don't know what i'm going to do with them now?

ace86 · 15-09-2013 09:36PM

Backfire wrote: »

I am not sure if all counties are involved, but there is a cup up for grabs, a cup that the Pallas/Kilflynn club here in Kerry have won in the last 2 years in a row.

This yr makes it 4 in a row for them.

Backfire · 15-09-2013 09:53PM

ace86 wrote: »

well my own club submitted our count but I thought it was very bad form of the kerry commitee to tell all club members on the day that they are going from legs to wings nxt yr without at least giving lads a few weeks notice before the count.I have got a phonecall from a fellow with a few legs as he didnt get a chance to give me don't know what i'm going to do with them now?

Well if they told people a few weeks beforehand, then guys would be keeping the wings from the birds that they were shooting over the past few weeks...for next years count

When you say 4 in a row for pallas/kilflynn, do you mean the Kerry competition or All Ireland?
I think they have won the kerry vermin count for the past 5 years in a row, this year would make it 6.
Either way its amazing how they have so many vermin got over the years. Insane dedication.

richiedel123 · 15-09-2013 10:32PM

Backfire wrote: »

Do you send in the legs or the wings of the birds?

I have already read here on boards.ie in older topics that some counties do accept rooks for the count but that they only count for 1 point or something.

Still, I don't understand why they are not counted as vermin in these 'Vermin competition'. I believe they should be.

We use wings in our count. I seen on here lads used collect heads too for a count

ace86 · 15-09-2013 11:37PM

Backfire wrote: »

Well if they told people a few weeks beforehand, then guys would be keeping the wings from the birds that they were shooting over the past few weeks...for next years count

When you say 4 in a row for pallas/kilflynn, do you mean the Kerry competition or All Ireland?
I think they have won the kerry vermin count for the past 5 years in a row, this year would make it 6.
Either way its amazing how they have so many vermin got over the years. Insane dedication.

I was saying if they said two wks before the count was on and communicate it to all the clubs involved they couldnt amount that many wings in 2weeks if fellows wanted to do it.

Ya I ment kerry alright it could be 6 alright I know they have the lst 4yrs.

Backfire · 16-09-2013 12:17PM

richiedel123 wrote: »

We use wings in our count. I seen on here lads used collect heads too for a count

Heads?! I presume differences in the beaks denoted the species.
Is there a difference in the grey crow and rook beaks? I think the grey crow beak is bigger, stronger and darker in colour.

So nobody can answer my question as to why rooks and jackdaws are not allowed in many of the regional vermin counts?

I read here in an older post last night that some places do allow them but they have a lower point value, only 1 point each for example. Where greys still have the 10 point value.

It makes no sense, they are all vermin and can be destructive and a nuisance in their own rights.

Terrier · 16-09-2013 02:09PM

In regards to the NARGC county vermin competition i believe there is a fair cash prize also involved.

In fairness to the NARGC they need to
1. Implement a standard vermin return and point system throughout the country
2. publish to members results from each county, not just the top 3 at the AGM.

ace86 · 16-09-2013 02:26PM

Backfire wrote: »

Heads?! I presume differences in the beaks denoted the species.
Is there a difference in the grey crow and rook beaks? I think the grey crow beak is bigger, stronger and darker in colour.

So nobody can answer my question as to why rooks and jackdaws are not allowed in many of the regional vermin counts?

I read here in an older post last night that some places do allow them but they have a lower point value, only 1 point each for example. Where greys still have the 10 point value.

It makes no sense, they are all vermin and can be destructive and a nuisance in their own rights.

I Have been informed that for the vermin competition all you can have is vermin i.e Fox,Mink, Grey Crow Magpie bcos they all prey on other birds pheasants, ducks etc. and Rook,Jackjaws Pigeon are classed as pests not Vermin even though they do alot of damage to crops etc. Some countys probably give points bcos of this.

Backfire · 16-09-2013 03:55PM

ace86 wrote: »

I Have been informed that for the vermin competition all you can have is vermin i.e Fox,Mink, Grey Crow Magpie bcos they all prey on other birds pheasants, ducks etc. and Rook,Jackjaws Pigeon are classed as pests not Vermin even though they do alot of damage to crops etc. Some countys probably give points bcos of this.

Technically vermin and pests are defined as the same thing, otherwise known as nuisance animals and birds, but I see your distinction.
So basically its a Game Predating Vermin Competition?

ace86 · 16-09-2013 04:10PM

Backfire wrote: »

Technically vermin and pests are defined as the same thing, otherwise known as nuisance animals and birds, but I see your distinction.
So basically its a Game Predating Vermin Competition?

Ya basically really all the predators I mentioned above prey on all other animals/birds to live really were as the others don't but cause problems in other ways which I believe is valid too.

Backfire · 16-09-2013 04:13PM

ace86 wrote: »

Ya basically really all the predators I mentioned above prey on all other animals/birds to live really were as the others don't but cause problems in other ways which I believe is valid too.

Like Terrier said, a standard system needs to be formally introduced across the board, for all clubs to abide by.

Do all regional game councils in Ireland take part in this competition?

ace86 · 16-09-2013 04:59PM

Backfire wrote: »

Like Terrier said, a standard system needs to be formally introduced across the board, for all clubs to abide by.

Do all regional game councils in Ireland take part in this competition?

Well I persume all countys take part in the competition but not all clubs with in the county might. I know if you fail to input vermin in kerry this yr you will be fined the following year or whenever you show up with stuff. I have just found this on the N.A.R.G.C about Vermin and they class rooks and jackjaws as vermin but maybe the Kerry R.G.C dont recognise them as vermin???

http://www.nargc.ie/habitat-conservation/game-development.aspx

Backfire · 16-09-2013 06:08PM

ace86 wrote: »

Well I persume all countys take part in the competition but not all clubs with in the county might. I know if you fail to input vermin in kerry this yr you will be fined the following year or whenever you show up with stuff. I have just found this on the N.A.R.G.C about Vermin and they class rooks and jackjaws as vermin but maybe the Kerry R.G.C dont recognise them as vermin???
http://www.nargc.ie/habitat-conservation/game-development.aspx

I know about the NARGC classing them as vermin, I already stated that and quoted from that exact page on their website in a post I made early on in this topic. Actually its the very first post of this topic

With regards to clubs not submitting points, they are normally fined 500 points for missing a year. Or else its 50%, not sure now. In the 2011 count, Derrymore were fined 50% of their points for that year. They had 3870 points and were fined 1935.

ace86 · 16-09-2013 09:54PM

Backfire wrote: »

I know about the NARGC classing them as vermin, I already stated that and quoted from that exact page on their website in a post I made early on in this topic. Actually its the very first post of this topic

With regards to clubs not submitting points, they are normally fined 500 points for missing a year. Or else its 50%, not sure now. In the 2011 count, Derrymore were fined 50% of their points for that year. They had 3870 points and were fined 1935.

Ya I know that they were fined bcos they hadn't submitted anything for a few years alright but I still think the Kerry R.G.C wont take Rooks and Jackjaws regardless most likely why they are moving away from legs.

Terrier · 17-09-2013 08:19AM

The Galway system is based on the following
1. Mink - 20points - Tail only
2. fox - 10 Points - Tail Only
3. grey Crow - 8 Points - wings only
4. Magpie - 8 points - wings only
5. Rook - 1 Point - wings only
6. jackdaw - 1 point - wings only
7 Pigeon - 1 point - wings only

4 counts run over Oct - April
Clubs are grouped into groups of 10.
1 year will be based on total points the following year will be based on % of members.
All return results are published in the County body AGM report circulated to all clubs (and now published online)
Clubs that do not return are not allowed to claim vermin and game crop grants and i believe also are not allowed subsided birds also which has gotten a few more club evolved this year.

ace86 · 17-09-2013 02:46PM

kerry system is like this:

1. Mink Tail -50points
2. Fox Tail- 30 points
3. Greycrow/Magpie Wings - 10 points

The count is done once a year in September.

Backfire · 17-09-2013 04:19PM

Terrier wrote: »

The Galway system is based on the following
1. Mink - 20points - Tail only
2. fox - 10 Points - Tail Only
3. grey Crow - 8 Points - wings only
4. Magpie - 8 points - wings only
5. Rook - 1 Point - wings only
6. jackdaw - 1 point - wings only
7 Pigeon - 1 point - wings only

4 counts run over Oct - April
Clubs are grouped into groups of 10.
1 year will be based on total points the following year will be based on % of members.
All return results are published in the County body AGM report circulated to all clubs (and now published online)
Clubs that do not return are not allowed to claim vermin and game crop grants and i believe also are not allowed subsided birds also which has gotten a few more club evolved this year.

The system in Kerry has been outlined by ace86 above and he is spot on.

Like the system in Galway, preference in terms of points seems to be Mink at number 1, which i suppose its reasonable considering the damage these vermin do to waterfowl.

But what is the system behind the referencing of points to different vermin? Why are grey crows and magpies considered greater vermin than the rook and jackdaw?
None of this has been explicitly explained by the NARGC, its all just assumed and accepted.

Thats fine but I can't understand how they can offer a trophy for best club in Ireland if rules or points allocations vary between places.

With regards to the publishing of results, its not done in Kerry to the best of my knowledge unless someone can shed some light on that. All that I have seen is a printed excel table of the results handed out in a meeting they have at the end of the year.

As already suggested by someone else in this topic, each county should have the same rules and the entire results for each area should be tabulated and published on some basic website or magazine leaflet. Or something!

ace86 · 18-09-2013 12:08AM

Backfire wrote: »

The system in Kerry has been outlined by ace86 above and he is spot on.

Like the system in Galway, preference in terms of points seems to be Mink at number 1, which i suppose its reasonable considering the damage these vermin do to waterfowl.

But what is the system behind the referencing of points to different vermin? Why are grey crows and magpies considered greater vermin than the rook and jackdaw?
None of this has been explicitly explained by the NARGC, its all just assumed and accepted.

Thats fine but I can't understand how they can offer a trophy for best club in Ireland if rules or points allocations vary between places.

With regards to the publishing of results, its not done in Kerry to the best of my knowledge unless someone can shed some light on that. All that I have seen is a printed excel table of the results handed out in a meeting they have at the end of the year.

As already suggested by someone else in this topic, each county should have the same rules and the entire results for each area should be tabulated and published on some basic website or magazine leaflet. Or something!

This is something that should be brought the attention of the N.A.R.G.C and get clarity on it once and for all even for this yrs A.G.M whenever its on and where? Anyone have any info or a link maybe?

Tommy87 · 18-09-2013 10:36AM

The reason that grey crows and magpies are given more points than rooks and jackdaws is because they attack the young of other birds. The effect they have on the other birds is why they are given the points.

That is the official reason given by the K.R.G.C.

Backfire · 18-09-2013 02:24PM

Tommy87 wrote: »

The reason that grey crows and magpies are given more points than rooks and jackdaws is because they attack the young of other birds. The effect they have on the other birds is why they are given the points.

That is the official reason given by the K.R.G.C.

Thats fair enough but why cant the KRGC designate a small number of points for rooks and jackdaws since they are vermin?
Greys and mags remain at 10 and rooks/jackdaws 1pt or 2pt.

I believe that they should count and have a specific points list for all clubs in Ireland. This should be decided by the NARGC and it should not be up to the discretion of each regional game council. Otherwise overall all ireland winners should be an award that should not exist.

Backfire · 20-11-2013 12:25AM

This year's meeting by the Kerry R.G.C. took place last week and the overall points for the vermin competition released.

I wasn't at the meeting. I have been told that the collection of birds wings instead of their legs is guaranteed not to change and that is final.

Did anyone at the meeting ask why the rook and jackdaw are not included in this vermin count competition or ask would they ever be included?

Just wanted to say congrats to Pallas/Kilflynn once again for obtaining first place with a massive points total of 47,880 points (295 foxes, 12 mink and 3843 greys/mags). I am sure its safe to say that they are contenders for the national NARGC trophy and potential winners of it once again.

ace86 · 20-11-2013 12:43AM

Backfire wrote: »

This year's meeting by the Kerry R.G.C. took place last week and the overall points for the vermin competition released.

I wasn't at the meeting. I have been told that the collection of birds wings instead of their legs is guaranteed not to change and that is final.

Did anyone at the meeting ask why the rook and jackdaw are not included in this vermin count competition or ask would they ever be included?

Just wanted to say congrats to Pallas/Kilflynn once again for obtaining first place with a massive points total of 47,880 points (295 foxes, 12 mink and 3843 greys/mags). I am sure its safe to say that they are contenders for the national NARGC trophy and potential winners of it once again.

Rooks and jackdaws don't cause any problems to nesting birds and pheasants and things but they do pose problems over cereal crops which we dont have or very little of in kerry i persume therefore are not included.

dodderangler · 20-11-2013 07:41AM

ace86 wrote: »

Rooks and jackdaws don't cause any problems to nesting birds and pheasants and things but they do pose problems over cereal crops which we dont have or very little of in kerry i persume therefore are not included.

Rooks definitely do damage to nesting birds and eggs.
Jackdaws don't but are just ugly ba5tards

Full Bore · 20-11-2013 02:39PM

Once the number of fox, mink , grey and mag are known and passed on by your rgc then at a national level they assign a points system it's a level playing field for all counties. Your county rgc can add more species rook , jackdaw etc but they won't score at national level.

Backfire · 20-11-2013 02:51PM

Full Bore wrote: »

Once the number of fox, mink , grey and mag are known and passed on by your rgc then at a national level they assign a points system it's a level playing field for all counties. Your county rgc can add more species rook , jackdaw etc but they won't score at national level.

That sounds fair. Although until this year, it was legs that were collected and lads were putting in rook legs for grey, and jackdaw legs for magpies. It was unfair to other counties where wing collection is mandatory and this couldnt happen.

Terrier · 20-11-2013 03:00PM

Backfire wrote: »

Just wanted to say congrats to Pallas/Kilflynn once again for obtaining first place with a massive points total of 47,880 points (295 foxes, 12 mink and 3843 greys/mags). I am sure its safe to say that they are contenders for the national NARGC trophy and potential winners of it once again.

3843 Greys\Mags.. so that club kills an average of 10 birds a day all year round!!
I'm sorry but unless they have one massive club with every member returning, something is not adding up. :mad:

Invincible · 20-11-2013 04:14PM

Terrier wrote: »

3843 Greys\Mags.. so that club kills an average of 10 birds a day all year round!!
I'm sorry but unless they have one massive club with every member returning, something is not adding up. :mad:

Total Magpies for Kerry count was 5284
Total Greycrow for Kerry count was 3510
Total Fox for Kerry count was 1251
Total Mink for Kerry count was 269

ace86 · 20-11-2013 06:00PM

dodderangler wrote: »

Rooks definitely do damage to nesting birds and eggs.
Jackdaws don't but are just ugly ba5tards

ya sound i probably understand the rooks will probably raid nests and take the eggs and things.

shoot to kill · 20-11-2013 06:05PM

Invincible wrote: »

Total Magpies for Kerry count was 5284
Total Greycrow for Kerry count was 3510
Total Fox for Kerry count was 1251
Total Mink for Kerry count was 269

Savage numbers. All I can say is well done to anyone involved.

ace86 · 20-11-2013 06:08PM

Invincible wrote: »

Total Magpies for Kerry count was 5284
Total Greycrow for Kerry count was 3510
Total Fox for Kerry count was 1251
Total Mink for Kerry count was 269

How do u know how many greycrows and magpies were caught bcos all i got was a combination of both as a total count?

Tommy87 · 20-11-2013 07:02PM

Terrier wrote: »

3843 Greys\Mags.. so that club kills an average of 10 birds a day all year round!!
I'm sorry but unless they have one massive club with every member returning, something is not adding up. :mad:

What are you trying to say?

shoot to kill · 20-11-2013 07:16PM

Invincible wrote: »

Total Magpies for Kerry count was 5284
Total Greycrow for Kerry count was 3510
Total Fox for Kerry count was 1251
Total Mink for Kerry count was 269

Savage numbers. All I can say is well done to anyone involved.

Invincible · 20-11-2013 07:33PM

ace86 wrote: »

How do u know how many greycrows and magpies were caught bcos all i got was a combination of both as a total count?

Because I have access to the counts.

Backfire · 20-11-2013 08:19PM

Invincible wrote: »

Because I have access to the counts.

Isn't there some prize for the club with the most magpies and/or most greys?

Is it possible to tell the difference between grey crow legs and rook legs?

ace86 · 20-11-2013 08:22PM

Invincible wrote: »

Because I have access to the counts.

so have I and all I got was a combined total that was submitted by all clubs in the county.

Backfire · 20-11-2013 08:25PM

ace86 wrote: »

so have I and all I got was a combined total that was submitted by all clubs in the county.

he probably meant that he has access to the count from the regional game council themselves, as in I have been told that they do separate out the magpies from the grey crows and count them separately, even though it is not typed up on the sheet we got.

ace86 · 20-11-2013 08:27PM

Backfire wrote: »

he probably meant that he has access to the count from the regional game council themselves, as in I have been told that they do separate out the magpies from the grey crows and count them separately, even though it is not typed up on the sheet we got.

ok sound but I can't see why they couldnt put it in the sheet along with everything else but no matters its just nice to know is all.

Invincible · 20-11-2013 08:36PM

ace86 wrote: »

so have I and all I got was a combined total that was submitted by all clubs in the county.

I mean nationally, seperate column for each species.

Invincible · 20-11-2013 08:40PM

Backfire wrote: »

Isn't there some prize for the club with the most magpies and/or most greys?

Is it possible to tell the difference between grey crow legs and rook legs?

Yes there are prizes for each category.
I don't know how you'd distinguish between Grey's legs or Rook's legs. We only count wings, Kerry is only county I know of that counted legs.

Backfire · 20-11-2013 08:41PM

Invincible wrote: »

I mean nationally, seperate column for each species.

is this info noted for all counties in Ireland? Do all counties have their own vermin count?

is any of this info or figures published by the NARGC?

ace86 · 20-11-2013 08:42PM

Invincible wrote: »

I mean nationally, seperate column for each species.

ok sound we just get the combined result from the County Board itself and when the club counts the legs we just count them all together,Sometimes its hard to tell crows legs and magies apart i know size would be a good indication, how do you know which is which when yer counting?

Invincible · 20-11-2013 09:30PM

Backfire wrote: »

is this info noted for all counties in Ireland? Do all counties have their own vermin count?

is any of this info or figures published by the NARGC?

This count is noted for each county, each has their own count. It's not published to general public but is available at county level.

Invincible · 21-11-2013 12:31AM

ace86 wrote: »

ok sound we just get the combined result from the County Board itself and when the club counts the legs we just count them all together,Sometimes its hard to tell crows legs and magies apart i know size would be a good indication, how do you know which is which when yer counting?

Well the County board have the details if they are asked.
We only count wings and tails(fox & mink) in our County.
I don't know how ye tell the difference, or why ye went away from wings in the first place? It left it open to abuse.

ace86 · 21-11-2013 12:38AM

Invincible wrote: »

Well the County board have the details if they are asked.
We only count wings and tails(fox & mink) in our County.
I don't know how ye tell the difference, or why ye went away from wings in the first place? It left it open to abuse.

ah we are actual only moving to wings as of this yr for 2014 Count as the rest of the country are at it and the reason wings are used I suppose is to stop the abuse of guys throwing in any crow/rook leg and to verify with out doubt u have a GreyCrow/Magpie.

dodderangler · 21-11-2013 10:25AM

What about if you guys freeze the heads.
I know some lads freeze the fox tails for the count at end of the year.

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Vermin Count Competition - Kerry R.G.C.

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