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Should false accusations of rape carry tougher sentences?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Yes, sentences should be longer IMO, but not equal to the sentence a rapist gets, as is sometimes suggested. She didn't rape anyone.

    I'd prefer get raped than be put in prison for 4 years over a false accusation


  • #33
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    anncoates wrote: »
    Just make the person that made the false allegation do the maximum sentence for the crime and put them on the sex offenders register.

    :confused:


  • #34
    Ace Attorney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭Ace Attorney


    I voted yes, But the sentencing should be left up to the discretion of the judge because i feel if you have an actual maximum sentence attached to rape claims, it could deter actual rape victims reporting their crime for fear of it going wrong on them. By not having an actual fixed sentence, victims could still report their case and have it heard. While the claims that are not genuine could be dealt with and the judge could hand out a sentence that fits the claim


  • #35
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,170 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Thatdoesnt looksafe tome AHHHHHHH wrote: »
    I voted yes, But the sentencing should be left up to the discretion of the judge because i feel if you have an actual maximum sentence attached to rape claims, it could deter actual rape victims reporting their crime for fear of it going wrong on them. By not having an actual fixed sentence, victims could still report their case and have it heard. While the claims that are not genuine could be dealt with and the judge could hand out a sentence that fits the claim

    Have to say the judge bloody well didn't hand out a sentence that fitted the claim in this case.

    Sending an innocent man to jail for 4 years all beacuse she didn't want to admit to watching porn!!


  • #36
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Case by case basis and if it's thought that the accusation is false then a separate investigation needs to be launched for that. If the accusation is found to be false the state and the accuser should be held responsible.

    The punishment should suit the crime. Lenient or harsh the knock on effect on report rates and false accusations shouldn't really effect the sentence for one incident taken in isolation.

    All said, I don't think false reporting of rape is as common as some people think. I reckon most people just wouldn't be prepared to go to those lengths when they can accuse someone of a lesser crime and avoid such close scrutiny.


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  • #37
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Yes, sentences should be longer IMO, but not equal to the sentence a rapist gets, as is sometimes suggested. She didn't rape anyone.

    She raped him emotionally. Fancy being sent down for something that you didn't do. Why should she not get a similar sentence? Because she's a woman?
    Afraid of her parents? Don't give me that crap. She saw this fellow go to jail - wrongfully convicted. She must be a sociopath and a pretty fucking evil one at that.


  • #38
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Someone else here said there should be the criterion of the person admitting they were lying or some other definitive proof that they were, which sounds about right. I guess I'm trying to say that lack of evidence is one thing, but you need to put forward a case for someone actually lying as another thing
    If it has been proven that they were lying, go for it

    That is the case. If someone accuses another person of raping them (whether or not it happened is irrelevant) and the accused is found not guilty, the accuser will not be prosecuted for this. In the case in the OP (and others like it) the accuser has been found guilty of perjury, which means they knowingly swore something false.

    Also, this doesn't just apply to rape cases, it applies to any case. If harsher sentences for perjury would put off people reporting rape then it would put people off reporting anything (assault, theft etc). I don't really think it would be a concern.

    As for this case, given the consequences of her actions the sentence is a joke.


  • #39
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    This devious cretin broke a lot of laws:

    Wasted police time

    Lied to the police

    Committed perjury

    Slandered another human being

    Aided and abetted the wrongful imprisonment of another person

    I could go on. Why do people make excuses for her?


  • #40
    Weevil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Weevil


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Yes, sentences should be longer IMO, but not equal to the sentence a rapist gets, as is sometimes suggested. She didn't rape anyone.
    Try living under a false allegation, delivered by those empowered to protect the innocent, and prosecuted by well trained professionals without any regard for their actions. All this will be funded by citizens of this country, while your defence will come out of your own pocket. She may not have raped anyone, but if she is believed by the relevant authorities, the outcome for the accused can feel a bit like it.


  • #41
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,805 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    There is a big difference between a person honestly believing they were a victim of a rape (but that not being the verdict in court) and a person deliberately accusing somebody of rape when they know it to have not been the case.

    In this particular case, given her (delayed) admission of what she'd done, I would not have any problem with her being sentenced to the same amount of time as the man wrongly imprisoned for her rape spent behind bars.

    Although, while I'm not convinced by the argument that punishments in cases like these need to be light to ensure that genuine victims of rape will be willing to come forward, you could argue that implementing heavier punishments would make it less likely that the accusers would come forward to own up to their lie.


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  • #42
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,805 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Yes, sentences should be longer IMO, but not equal to the sentence a rapist gets, as is sometimes suggested. She didn't rape anyone.
    How about a sentence equal to the time served by the person who she knowingly saw wrongly convicted of her rape?


  • #43
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,501 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I know that the OP article is from the United states.

    What is the typical sentenc ein Ireland for this, if it was a clearcut case?

    I'd be thinking about a year in the big house would be suitable. Not quite as long as the sentence for rape, but significant at the same time.


  • #44
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Originally Posted by anncoates
    Just make the person that made the false allegation do the maximum sentence for the crime and put them on the sex offenders register.
    April O Neill wrote: »
    :confused:

    Why not? They've committed a sexually related crime. Someone found with kiddie porn on their computer will be put on the register, they havent committed a direct physical sexual offense against another person either.

    Maybe put her on the register for 2 years, make the girl understand what she put her victim through.


  • #45
    Sgt. Al Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Sgt. Al Powell


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Rape report stats are low enough already and even lower going to trial because it's so traumatic, so a balance needs to be struck here
    Candie wrote: »
    Putting people who've been raped in fear of prison on top of the trauma of the assault will just give would-be rapists another weapon to hurt them with.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    Making laws about something like this mandatory will mean that less people will report genuine attacks

    So lets not punish those that lie to the courts, resulting in another being locked up in prison for what could be a decade or more, because well, while they themselves are not really victims of the crime which they pretended they were, some people out there are and so lets not make life difficult for them.

    Good Christ.

    Not having fair laws in place out of some deluded concern that genuine victims of rape may not report attacks for fear of prosecution themselves, is just that, deluded.

    Course we'd never allow such nonsense to affect how we shape legislation in this country.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9MzrirPrCI


  • #46
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    desertcircus wrote: »
    "Here's an incredibly rare story from a jurisdiction several thousand miles away. What's that? You're worried that a focus on stories like this rather than the reality of sexual assault cases will prejudice public opinion and actively damage our chances of making a better society? Hush hush, there's a story to sell."

    Well for a story much closer to home, there was the case of Michael Hannon, whose accuser admitted it was all a lie:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0427/116727-hannonm/

    The complainant there was never charged, although that could be due to her age etc.

    I think every bit of the debate around rape cases is too agenda driven. The prosecution are completely entitled to bring a case only on the word of the complainant, and if the jury has a reasonable doubt, they must acquit.

    I think the big problem in all this is not the sentence for false complaints, but the unwillingness of juries to even consider acquitting. On any given jury there will probably be one or two people who have already decided that they are going to convict. This attitude of "sure he must have done something" needs to stop.


  • #47
    Sunglasses Ron
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Sunglasses Ron


    desertcircus wrote: »
    "Here's an incredibly rare story from a jurisdiction several thousand miles away. We've left out pretty much everything to do with context and made no effort whatsoever to consider why someone would be so scared of their own parents' reaction as to make a false rape accusation. We're also doing nothing to explain how this new sentencing rule might work, and damned if we're going to spend a moment's thought wondering if she would have come forward if she was guaranteed a four-year sentence. We're not even going to begin to think about the fact that perjury is a completely different crime to rape, and don't you dare wonder why we decided to focus on this rather than on horrifically low reporting and conviction rates for rape. What's that? You're worried that a focus on stories like this rather than the reality of sexual assault cases will prejudice public opinion and actively damage our chances of making a better society? Hush hush, there's a story to sell."


    I would laugh my ****ing balls off if you got locked up on a false charge :pac: Along with the people who thanked it.


  • #48
    Corey Whining Trachea
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Corey Whining Trachea


    Sgt. Al Powell wrote: »
    Course we'd never allow such nonsense to affect how we shape legislation in this country.

    Course we'd never bother to read what I actually said and later clarified, no


  • #49
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Making laws about something like this mandatory will mean that less people will report genuine attacks and more scumbags will get away with it. There should be nothing that puts women in fair of being prosecuted because they were attacked and the scumbag got away with it.

    So should we give immunity to false complaints to encourage more complaints generally? If you've been raped you should report it to the police. If the DPP don't proceed or a jury doesn't convict it's not your fault. But if you make up an allegation, you should be prosecuted, just as you are for any false complaint of any other offence.

    The problem in Ireland isn't short sentences for false complaints, the problem is that false complaints are rarely prosecuted, for the reasons you set out above - a belief based on lobby groups that it will discourage genuine complaints. But there is no evidence to suggest that this is the case and indeed it can be argued that the prosecution of demonstrably false complaints would bolster faith in the system and that that would remove a barrier to genuine complainants making complaints.


  • #50
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Sgt. Al Powell wrote: »

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9MzrirPrCI
    :confused: Whats the relevance?


  • #51
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    I would laugh my ****ing balls off if you got locked up on a false charge :pac: Along with the people who thanked it.

    I am sure one guy laughing on the internet would weigh heavy on the mind when locked up on false charges. THAT would be the life ruiner, I think.


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  • #52
    Napper Hawkins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭Napper Hawkins


    I can't believe there's even a debate on this. If an individual is perfectly happy to take four years of an innocent persons life away then they should be prepared to have the exact same amount taken away from them if they are caught out.

    Two months? **** right off with that.


  • #53
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    People who go into prison on sexual offense related charges are raped and abused by both the inmates and the guards while they are in there.

    So, yes, in a lot of ways a false accusation is as bad as rape.

    I don't think rape in prisons is nearly as common as it is made out to be by US dramas. Especially given that sex offenders are put in Arbour Hill.

    Where there is an allegation of prison rape, it will usually be investigated by the Gardaí:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0802/8221-mountjoy/


  • #54
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    April O Neill wrote: »
    :confused:

    I suppose eschewing the use of elliptic, passive-aggressive, roll eyes faces in favour of elliptic, passive-aggressive, confusion faces represents a progress of sorts.


  • #55
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    anncoates wrote: »
    Just make the person that made the false allegation do the maximum sentence for the crime and put them on the sex offenders register.


    I do not agree with giving the max sentence for rape (because not even everyone convicted of rape gets that...) but I think going on the sex offenders register is an excellent suggestion.


  • #56
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    The system is a legal system, not a Justice system and people can only be sentenced for the crime they are being tried for.

    In the case of the poor lad, he was accused of rape and the system failed and he was falsely convicted and he was sentenced for rape.

    She was tried for a false accusation and the fact that the lad spent 4 years in jail is, unfortunately, only a consideration in her trial but she was sentenced for making a false accusation.

    So should the sentencing for false accusations ( In general ) be raised to the same sentence as rape? No, not at all, as it undermines the sentencing for rape and sets unreasonably high precedence for other cases of false accusation where there wasn't such an unfortunatle thing happen to a young innocent man.




    All that said, she should be shot in the face, fcuking bítch whóre.


  • #57
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,792 ✭✭✭tritium


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    I don't think rape in prisons is nearly as common as it is made out to be by US dramas. Especially given that sex offenders are put in Arbour Hill.

    Where there is an allegation of prison rape, it will usually be investigated by the Gardaí:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0802/8221-mountjoy/

    I'll have to look for the statistics later but I have a recollection of a US study that showed male on male prison rape to be a massive issue in terms of numbers. Not sure if any similar study has ever been done for Ireland or the UK


  • #58
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭up for anything


    The penalty for a false accusation of rape such be equal to the penalty of rape itself. That would be fair.


  • #59
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    anncoates wrote: »
    I suppose eschewing the use of elliptic, passive-aggressive, roll eyes faces in favour of elliptic, passive-aggressive, confusion faces represents a progress of sorts.

    Well, that's one way to deflect from the fact that what you wrote made no sense, I s'pose. Whatever would you have done if I hadn't used it?


  • #60
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    bluewolf wrote: »
    That's the problem indeed.
    Far too many people yell about how the woman was making things up or lying when a guy is found not guilty, but that doesn't mean she was lying, it means there wasn't the evidence.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that all unsuccessful complaints of rape should be prosecuted as false complaints. But where the complaint is demonstrably false and, like here or in the Hannon case, there is a ulterior motive or financial gain element to it, I think there should be a prosecution.
    Rape report stats are low enough already and even lower going to trial because it's so traumatic, so a balance needs to be struck here

    Yes, there is a dramatic attrition rate between the number of rape cases suggested by the RCC etc and the numbers that actually result in a conviction. At each stage - deciding whether to go to the Gardaí or not, whether the investigation file goes to the DPP or not, whether the DPP decides to prosecute, whether the prosecution results in a conviction or not - there is a dramatic reduction in the numbers. While the reduction at the start i.e. deciding whether to report it or not, can be due to the traumatic nature of a criminal prosecution, the rest are controlled by the Gardaí and the DPP and while a few cases are discontinued at the complainant's request, this would not be the norm.

    I think if you want to talk about the issue seriously, you cannot come to it with an agenda, whether that agenda be to encourage more complaints just as much as an agenda to discourage complaints (if there even are genuinely people who want to push that agenda).


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  • #61
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    April O Neill wrote: »
    Well, that's one way to deflect from the fact that what you wrote made no sense, I s'pose. Whatever would you have done if I hadn't used it?

    Seeing as you appear to have a habit (at least in your dealings with me) of posting idiot smilies in lieu of expressing an opinion, I might well have ignored it anyway.


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