Evening herald article on deer poaching

rowa · 12-10-2013 05:43PM #1

http://www.herald.ie/news/greedy-poachers-put-deer-stocks-at-risk-warn-gardai-29654644.html

The Aussie · 12-10-2013 05:48PM

They did not do a good job of hiding the number plate on the 98 Isuzu Trooper
:pac:

sniperman · 12-10-2013 05:58PM

this sort of thing will always happen,as long as there are people willing to pay

rowa · 12-10-2013 06:01PM

sniperman wrote: »

this sort of thing will always happen,as long as there are people willing to pay

It would be drastically reduced if the penalties were much harsher.

sniperman · 12-10-2013 06:06PM

rowa wrote: »

It would be drastically reduced if the penalties were much harsher.

i agree maybe so,but poaching rhino is risking ones life,yet its still done,why?...money,i know its a huge difference,but along the same lines

meathstevie · 13-10-2013 04:46PM

rowa wrote: »

It would be drastically reduced if the penalties were much harsher.

Harsh penalties don't have as strong an influence as people believe they do, if harsh penalties alone were a solution there wouldn't be a corrupt official in China or someone having an affair in Iran.

The only way to sort out the poaching problem is making it at more traceable where a gamedealers' deer come from. For example a register of exact location where each individual deer was shot and by whom to be kept by a gamedealer would be a start. Spot inspection of that by Gardai and NPWS would easily weed out a few shady caracters.

It would also be beneficial to have to declare all your permissions to the NPWS, not only those you have in writing but the verbal ones as well. NPWS rangers are no idiots and it would quickly become clear who's flogging deer in numbers that couldn't be supported by their declared permisssions.

rowa · 13-10-2013 05:15PM

meathstevie wrote: »

Harsh penalties don't have as strong an influence as people believe they do, if harsh penalties alone were a solution there wouldn't be a corrupt official in China or someone having an affair in Iran.

The only way to sort out the poaching problem is making it at more traceable where a gamedealers' deer come from. For example a register of exact location where each individual deer was shot and by whom to be kept by a gamedealer would be a start. Spot inspection of that by Gardai and NPWS would easily weed out a few shady caracters.

It would also be beneficial to have to declare all your permissions to the NPWS, not only those you have in writing but the verbal ones as well. NPWS rangers are no idiots and it would quickly become clear who's flogging deer in numbers that couldn't be supported by their declared permisssions.

You'd think twice about it if they could take gun, jeep and other equipment etc. off you, freeze your bank account and search your house etc. Thats before your court case and what ever penalty the court sees fit.

The npws are already aware of who is shooting what, so it shouldn't be difficult for a ranger to ask the poacher exactly where they were shot. It says in the article that one character sold 72 deer to dealer in one month, which is 5 deer every two days, a very difficult thing to do legally i would think, so why are the ptb not round knocking on his front door asking him exactly how he managed it ?

The Aussie · 13-10-2013 05:37PM

rowa wrote: »

You'd think twice about it if they could take gun, jeep and other equipment etc. off you, freeze your bank account and search your house etc. Thats before your court case and what ever penalty the court sees fit.

And don't forget the great Irish shame of being named in the paper and being on the receiving end of the Parish gossip until your great grand children pass this world, a small bit off track but not to far...

I know a bloke fairly well down here in Cork who was named as a Tax Defaulter even after settling with Revenue, he said he did not care to much about the settlement but it was the remarks his Children were getting or the two old biddies obviously talking about him at the a shops and so on that really ground him down.

sikahuntejack · 13-10-2013 08:44PM

I know inspecter martin walker and trust me he is sick over the poaching he knows who is doing the poaching and has told 1 lad to his face he will catch him, for the first time the guards are checking the game dealers books to see who is leaveing in the large amounts of deer its the courts letting everyone down

meathstevie · 14-10-2013 12:19PM

rowa wrote: »

You'd think twice about it if they could take gun, jeep and other equipment etc. off you, freeze your bank account and search your house etc. Thats before your court case and what ever penalty the court sees fit.

The npws are already aware of who is shooting what, so it shouldn't be difficult for a ranger to ask the poacher exactly where they were shot. It says in the article that one character sold 72 deer to dealer in one month, which is 5 deer every two days, a very difficult thing to do legally i would think, so why are the ptb not round knocking on his front door asking him exactly how he managed it ?

I know what legislation up North and in the UK allows police to do if someone gets arrested when suspected of poaching; all evidence or what is believed to be evidence of the offence can be seized. So vehicle, gun, ammo, mobile phone, clothing and so on can be seized. Follow up house searches can be done and could lead to for example butchering equipment and cold storage equipment being seized, phone records for contacts with gamedealers being requested from service providers and so on and so on. I don't believe that the investigative powers of AGS are wildly different either.

At the end of the day I hope Mr Walker can make good on his determination. Let's face it, to poach deer one has to travel to where there are sufficient numbers of deer to justify the "work" and risk so that's one advantage the Gardai and the NPWS have.

meathstevie · 14-10-2013 12:23PM

rowa wrote: »

You'd think twice about it if they could take gun, jeep and other equipment etc. off you, freeze your bank account and search your house etc. Thats before your court case and what ever penalty the court sees fit.

The npws are already aware of who is shooting what, so it shouldn't be difficult for a ranger to ask the poacher exactly where they were shot. It says in the article that one character sold 72 deer to dealer in one month, which is 5 deer every two days, a very difficult thing to do legally i would think, so why are the ptb not round knocking on his front door asking him exactly how he managed it ?

That's working of the assumption that all shot deer are declared and are sold through legitimate game dealer channels. There's probably the odd few caracters in the restaurant and butcher trade that aren't to adverse to buying some "say nothing" venison from the back of a jeep either that could easily account for a right number of deer a year.

Cass · 14-10-2013 12:59PM

rowa wrote: »

You'd think twice about it if they could take gun, jeep and other equipment etc. off you,....................?

They can.

I'ver said this on this thread and other threads. The NPWS ranger as an authorised person, and in conjunction with An Gardaí have the power to seize any thing relating to the offence with a follow up search of the property with An Gardaí. A thing is defined as:

Firearm
Vehicle
Equipment
Papers/documents
Containers
Tools
Snares
Lights/lamps
Ammo
etc.

An NPWS ranger stands as an authorised person and it's an offence not to furnish him/her with identification, and details of address, etc. if or when they stop you. They can only stop you and search if they believe you have commited an offence so this is not some unlimited power they have. Also they do need Garda presence and assistance for certain aspects such as storing/holding any vehicle or firearm seized, etc.

meathstevie wrote: »

I don't believe that the investigative powers of AGS are wildly different either.

As above, they are not.

One shot on kill · 14-10-2013 01:09PM

I would of though if you are on the road no one other than the AGS and customs have the right to stop you.

But if a ranger approachs you and identified himself with ID then I'd imagine its a completly different ball game. Then I'd imagine you have to cooperate and provide all relavent documents and explain actions on the spot.

Regarding seizing of firarms and vehicles I'd imagine this can only be don't with the presence of AGS. For the sime things like firarms licensing and insurance for the vehicle seized.

Cass · 14-10-2013 01:50PM

One shot on kill wrote: »

I would of though if you are on the road no one other than the AGS and customs have the right to stop you.

But if a ranger approachs you and identified himself with ID then I'd imagine its a completly different ball game. Then I'd imagine you have to cooperate and provide all relavent documents and explain actions on the spot.

A ranger, under the wildlife act, has the same authority if he believes you are in breach of the act (iow poaching, lamping protected game, etc)

Regarding seizing of firarms and vehicles I'd imagine this can only be don't with the presence of AGS. For the sime things like firarms licensing and insurance for the vehicle seized.

For firearms they can call the Gardaí, but they have the authority to seize the gun themselves, but must surrender the firearm to a local Garda station within 24 hours.

As for the car they can seize it to, but more likely they either involve the Gardaí or get your address and follow up at your residence. But they have the authority.

daithi55 · 14-10-2013 01:51PM

is it just me or those pictures dont look very recent
well done to all involved all the same

15-10-2013 09:09AM

daithi55 wrote: »

is it just me or those pictures dont look very recent
well done to all involved all the same

Agree.
But reads a bit too much like a PR exercise to me.
Everyone knows who the worst of these are but nothing is being done. I'm in the NW, apart from the various scumbags (mostly from Carlow for some reason) turning up here with cattle trailer's for removing deer, one the worst lamping/poaching groups in my area the last few years are members of the Gardai from Dublin.

sikahuntejack · 15-10-2013 10:35AM

Thats a old photo from 2 years ago the lad who was caught got a fine and was allowed to keep his gun, the biggest poachers in the wicklow area are from carlow the guards are after them but theses lads are at it a long time and know every trick in the book and i cant see them being caught unless they are watched 24/7 which wont happen

rowa · 15-10-2013 06:56PM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

Thats a old photo from 2 years ago the lad who was caught got a fine and was allowed to keep his gun, the biggest poachers in the wicklow area are from carlow the guards are after them but theses lads are at it a long time and know every trick in the book and i cant see them being caught unless they are watched 24/7 which wont happen

I don't see why the guards should have to lay in wait during the small hours in the hope of nailing one of these lemons, especially when there are limited resources and other crime is on the up. The way to crack this nut is to have an inspector quizzing the game dealers regularly on who is bringing in the big numbers and get the tax man involved.

Lastin · 15-10-2013 07:25PM

The tax man and social welfare to make sure all bases are covered.

Grizzly 45 · 16-10-2013 11:05AM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

the guards are after them but theses lads are at it a long time and know every trick in the book and i cant see them being caught unless they are watched 24/7 which wont happen

Technology is a wonderful thing these days..Especialy GPS trackers and such..;)
I thought AGS now had the legislative powers to "sneak and install" such??
Or if they dont want to/cant do...The private sector is well capable of doing such.;)

One shot on kill · 16-10-2013 11:56AM

They haven't the balls. They would be afraid of legal action I'd say.

Witcher · 16-10-2013 12:45PM

Some quotes from the Bray People newspaper on poaching in Wicklow. They were from local people in the area.

The resident believes that this new breed of hunter, who doesn't reside in the area is motivated solely by money and equipped with extremely dangerous weapons more potent than those available to Gardai

There are guns out there bigger than what the army and the police have, really really powerful weapons in the hands of those unscrupulous people who see nothing but the deer and fire at it

rowa · 16-10-2013 01:31PM

Blay wrote: »

Some quotes from the Bray People newspaper on poaching in Wicklow. They were from local people in the area.

Blay, isn't that another problem Caused by this poaching ? The legitimate shooter coming under pressure from the public and media who can't or won't see a difference between us , and the criminals.

meathstevie · 16-10-2013 06:45PM

rowa wrote: »

I don't see why the guards should have to lay in wait during the small hours in the hope of nailing one of these lemons, especially when there are limited resources and other crime is on the up. The way to crack this nut is to have an inspector quizzing the game dealers regularly on who is bringing in the big numbers and get the tax man involved.

That approach wouldn't even need any Garda involvement. The Revenue people alone have the necessary investigative powers to do this but I doubt that Revenue will be able to justify the cost of dedicating any significant staffing to an operation that after all only deals with thousands of euro in unpaid taxes.

I reckon issues like income from counterfeit goods, tobacco smuggling, fuel laundering, VAT fraud and so on are far higher on their agenda.

meathstevie · 16-10-2013 06:48PM

One shot on kill wrote: »

They haven't the balls. They would be afraid of legal action I'd say.

Why should AGS be afraid of "legal action" when using legitimate and lawful investigative techniques ? Covert surveillance has some legal implications and potential privacy issues but when AGS do their preparation right there's sweet nothing a suspect can do about the evidence resulting from it.

Witcher · 16-10-2013 06:57PM

rowa wrote: »

Blay, isn't that another problem Caused by this poaching ? The legitimate shooter coming under pressure from the public and media who can't or won't see a difference between us , and the criminals.

It is indeed, as I said it was supposed to be on poaching but most of it was quotes like those I gave. There were no real facts or figures nor any contributions from the NPWS or Gardai. There was one good point about where a missed shot might go in the darkness but the rest was as I quoted..there are apparently lads out at night in Wicklow with artillery pieces.

You don't have to go far to find that sort of hysteria about firearms in Ireland whether it's brought on by experience of poachers or not, we all know that.

The Aussie · 16-10-2013 07:23PM

Blay wrote: »

There was one good point about where a missed shot might go in the darkness but the rest was as I quoted..

One House in Kerry has already been on the receiving end of a stray shot.

rowa · 16-10-2013 07:50PM

The Aussie wrote: »

One House in Kerry has already been on the receiving end of a stray shot.

And a moving jeep in wicklow.

The Aussie · 16-10-2013 07:56PM

rowa wrote: »

And a moving jeep in wicklow.

:eek:

That would be Brown Jocks time....

PL05 · 16-10-2013 08:08PM

was out on one of my permissions in wicklow last evening, did,nt have my rifle with me as was getting pretty dark when i got there. saw a fine stag and about 5 hinds heading back into forest, as they spotted me. anyway when i finished what i was doing and on my way back to car i saw a strong light been shone into fields in direction i was heading. so i stopped and sat down to watch. as i sat down i heard two shots go off in forest behind me, they where about 40 seconds apart and not a shotgun. it was about 2 hours after sunset by now also. i would say for definate that the shots i heard had nothing to do with the lamp i saw, anyway the lamp came on again, so i turned on a small torch i had with me and the lamping stopped. when i got back to car there was no sign of anyone around but i,d say that more than likely theres one maybe two less deer in the group i saw. f***ing arseho**s have to be stopped.

sikahuntejack · 17-10-2013 03:21PM

Suprised lads are lamping that early in the night with all the fuss about poachers at the moment the new breed of poachers are heading off at 4 in the morning and shooting the deer dragging to a ditch and going back when its bright and collecting the deer, if stopped by NPW or guards nothing can be said to them as its bright out i got this straight from the horses mouth :mad:

Cass · 17-10-2013 03:25PM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

............... if stopped by NPW or guards nothing can be said to them as its bright out i got this straight from the horses mouth :mad:

A lad not too far from me is up on poaching charges. His story is similar to that one with the only difference being he shot it in the evening. <SNIP>.

So the same would be true here. If stopped the rangers need only take a temp reading of the carcass and work out if it was shot at sunrise/within the hour or much earlier.

Grizzly 45 · 17-10-2013 05:56PM

Were it that simple..

sikahuntejack · 17-10-2013 06:11PM

Cass wrote: »

A lad not too far from me is up on poaching charges. His story is similar to that one with the only difference being he shot it in the evening. He claimed he was within the 1 hour after sunset rule, but the rangers argued that due to the temperature of the carcass that it could not have been shot at the time he claimed.

So the same would be true here. If stopped the rangers need only take a temp reading of the carcass and work out if it was shot at sunrise/within the hour or much earlier.

But cass with the NPW spending all the time in the areas with the big deer numbers like donard, hollywood,roundwood,mannor kilbride, sally gap,glendalough,The areas that do not have the large deer numbers suffer they get lamped to death i have never met a ranger on the outskirts of wicklow say from tinaheley to tullow, the chances of being caught lamping or coming home with a jeep full of deer early in the morning on the outskirts of wicklow are slim. When the heat comes on the poachers like at the moment they just move to the outskirts and the less obvious areas,

Cass · 17-10-2013 07:30PM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

............. i have never met a ranger on the outskirts of wicklow......................... When the heat comes on the poachers like at the moment they just move to the outskirts and the less obvious areas,

Hold on a minute.

You first started with the fact that lads are lamping so early that if a ranger were to stop them they could do nothing as they are now in legal daytime shooting. Here is what you said:

sikahuntejack wrote: »

......... the new breed of poachers are heading off at 4 in the morning and shooting the deer dragging to a ditch and going back when its bright and collecting the deer, if stopped by NPW or guards nothing can be said to them as its bright out.............

So that is a completely different scenario to not meeting a ranger at all.

One scenario is about "getting away with it" while the other is adequate patrols by the rangers. My point based on the person i quoted above is that the NPWS use their discretion and other methods so lamping in the morning, before legal daytime hours, can still be prosecuted, just with a little more effort. The lack off rangers is a different issue and not germane to the point i made.

Grizzly45 wrote:

Were it that simple.

Apparently it is. Be it as part of, or the basis of, the prosecution those types of methods are being used.

sikahuntejack · 17-10-2013 08:10PM

Dont think there has ever being a court case of poachers being brought to court after being caught with deer on the way home from lamping when its bright plenty of lads get stopped with deer in the jeeps and vans alright but nothing ever happens, for a ranger to check the carcass of the deer it would have to be probed with a calibrated temperature probe would a ranger be trained enough for this, and by the time the guards arrived the carcass would have cooled down so would it not be the rangers word against the poacher the outcome of that court case will be interesting

Cass · 17-10-2013 08:15PM

Even if the rangers were qualified to make that call the issue becomes the accuracy of the testing. Hence the reason why you never see cases about poaching early morning. However the one i'm watching is an evening time thing which by it;s very nature is easier for the ranger to prove as there is no leeway after the end of daytime shooting.

sikahuntejack wrote: »

............. by the time the guards arrived the carcass would have cooled down so would it not be the rangers word against the poacher the outcome of that court case will be interesting

It will, and i'm trying to follow the case as i'd be interested to see how it goes. Won;t set a precedent, but will be a victory one way or the other. Thing is as an ongoing case i, nor anyone, can discuss it here as it's technical contempt of court. hence the reason i've not mentioned details, names, areas, etcf.

The Aussie · 17-10-2013 08:22PM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

the rangers word against the poacher the outcome of that court case will be interesting

In fishing terms, the word of a Bailiff carries a fair bit of weight over the word of a Poacher, many fines and convictions are on the word of a Bailiff, one case in the Evening Echo for the 2009 Season proved that one.

rowa · 17-10-2013 08:24PM

Cass wrote: »

A lad not too far from me is up on poaching charges. His story is similar to that one with the only difference being he shot it in the evening. He claimed he was within the 1 hour after sunset rule, but the rangers argued that due to the temperature of the carcass that it could not have been shot at the time he claimed.

So the same would be true here. If stopped the rangers need only take a temp reading of the carcass and work out if it was shot at sunrise/within the hour or much earlier.

I would think though cass, that no one short of a fully qualified pathologist could give an accurate time of death, and even then there can be difficulties.

Grizzly 45 · 17-10-2013 08:54PM

Cass wrote: »

Apparently it is. Be it as part of, or the basis of, the prosecution those types of methods are being used.

Ask any coroner, state pathologist,crime scene investigator,mortician or autopsy surgeon and they might say that using body temp is not a very exact science for determining time of death,that can be influenced by outside factors.It can be out by hours betimes. Ambient air temp,body fat,where the body was lying on land or in water plays a big role in decomposition too.Warmer the faster rigor mortis set in ,colder the slower.

Rule of thumb is in temperate regions[for human remains]
1 degree centrigrade body core cooling per hour

Warm and not stiff: Not dead more than three hours
Warm and stiff: Dead between 3 and 8 hours
Cold and stiff: Dead between 8 and 36 hours
Cold and not stiff: Dead more than 36 hours

In humans anyway, you need the liver present for a body core temp reading.
As internal organs will hold warmth apprently,but if the carcass is gutted??

All I'm saying is they will need to be pretty thorough to rely on just that as evidence,if it is still a debateable point in a court where human remains are concerned.
Just sticking a meat thermometer on a carcass in a warm jeep on a cold autumn morning for example and assuredly declaring in the witness box it was shot at X time,is going to leave them wide open to challange.

Cass · 17-10-2013 10:14PM

I think you all misunderstand my point so let me break it down for you.

rowa wrote: »

........... that no one short of a fully qualified pathologist could give an accurate time of death, and even then there can be difficulties.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ask any coroner, state pathologist,crime scene investigator,mortician or autopsy surgeon and they might say that using body temp is not a very exact science for determining time of death,................

I am not arguing that it is right, i am not saying that any NPWS ranger is qualified or competent. In fact i mentioned above that very point;

Cass wrote: »

Even if the rangers were qualified to make that call the issue becomes the accuracy of the testing..............................

So as you both said and the reason for me following this specific case is for this very reason. I have to watch what i say <SNIP>

So i'm really interested in how it turns out.

My point above was the case was brought before the courts based on this.

meathstevie · 17-10-2013 10:33PM

Folks, forget about all the complicated stuff like semi pathological theories etc, poaching has a few simple points to prove in court to secure a conviction.

It has to be clearly and certainly established that the person(s) involved are responsible for killing the deer in their possession and on top of that it has to be established that the hunting was unlawful and the options are multiple when it comes to that; shot from a vehicle, shot under a lamp without section 42 allowing it, shot on land without permission, shot out of season, shot with an illegal caliber etc etc.

Just about the only way to establish that is by witness evidence from a ranger, a garda or a third party witness. Something like good quality camera footage would be the cherry on the cake.

It's one thing stopping someone with a number of dead deer in a van but if you can't establish that they were unlawfully shot you'll have a very hard time convincing a district court judge to find anyone guilty of any offences.

meathstevie · 17-10-2013 10:36PM

Cass wrote: »

I think you all misunderstand my point so let me break it down for you.

I am not arguing that it is right, i am not saying that any NPWS ranger is qualified or competent. In fact i mentioned above that very point;

So as you both said and the reason for me following this specific case is for this very reason. I have to watch what i say <SNIP>

So i'm really interested in how it turns out.

My point above was the case was brought before the courts based on this.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of that one alright...plenty of variables there but also serious wriggling room to throw in a good sized wedge of reasonable doubt.

Cass · 17-10-2013 11:03PM

meathstevie wrote: »

Folks, forget about all the complicated stuff like semi pathological theories etc, poaching has a few simple points to prove in court to secure a conviction.

You cannot forget about them. Not when they are the basis for bringing someone to court.

Picture this scenario. I was out this evening and finished up at 19:15 because it got too dark to see. Legally i'm allowed to shoot until 19:29 as this is one hour after sunset.

So say i shot a deer at 19:25. I do a quick clean out in the field and drag it back to the jeep. From where i was today to the jeep would have taken about an hour while dragging a deer. I get to the jeep and load it up and head home. The time is now, say 20:45.

On the way a ranger stops me. I show him my license, and he asks have i anything. I say yes a deer, and open the back to show him. He feels the deer and reckons i shot it only an hour ago because it's warm. I tell him it's shot earlier and in daytime legal hours. He does not believe me and proceeds to demand i turn the deer over and calls either a second ranger or An Gardaí to help him out.

Jump along and the case has gone t court. I have now faced changes and prosecution for shooting a deer illegally when i have not based on this ranger's opinion that the deer was warmer than it should. So without testing, credentials, etc. i have now faced all this for nothing.

meathstevie wrote:

plenty of variables there but also serious wriggling room to throw in a good sized wedge of reasonable doubt.

It's a stretch you would think, but as i've being saying above it's happening at the moment. Now i don't know all the facts of the case, but my mate knows the chap involved and this was the basis for the case. Whatever else came after i don't know and cannot discuss anyway, but you get the idea.

I have been stopped more times this year than in the previous few years and frankly it's great to see. However it also goes the other way. A ranger stopped me 2 weeks before the season started. Very long story short i got questioned and quizzed about using "deer rifles" for hunting foxes. This attitude leads to the bullshít you hear from people saying that deer legal calibers should not be allowed to be used after night fall to prevent poaching.

One shot on kill · 17-10-2013 11:34PM

I'm sure the rangers have a certain amount of intelligence that they can distinguish between chancers and liars.

If your law biding and done everything you can to make his job easyer. There is a good chance they know the land and know if you had a hard long drag or not. They would have seen your jeep or van or whatever.

The thing is community alert is still very powerful in these areas and that's how poachers get caught I would think anyway. Paddy ringing johnny and so on.

Cass I'd like to know more about what happened with the ranger and the foxing nite.

sikahuntejack · 18-10-2013 07:58AM

Cass wrote: »

You cannot forget about them. Not when they are the basis for bringing someone to court.

Picture this scenario. I was out this evening and finished up at 19:15 because it got too dark to see. Legally i'm allowed to shoot until 19:29 as this is one hour after sunset.

So say i shot a deer at 19:25. I do a quick clean out in the field and drag it back to the jeep. From where i was today to the jeep would have taken about an hour while dragging a deer. I get to the jeep and load it up and head home. The time is now, say 20:45.

On the way a ranger stops me. I show him my license, and he asks have i anything. I say yes a deer, and open the back to show him. He feels the deer and reckons i shot it only an hour ago because it's warm. I tell him it's shot earlier and in daytime legal hours. He does not believe me and proceeds to demand i turn the deer over and calls either a second ranger or An Gardaí to help him out.

Jump along and the case has gone t court. I have now faced changes and prosecution for shooting a deer illegally when i have not based on this ranger's opinion that the deer was warmer than it should. So without testing, credentials, etc. i have now faced all this for nothing.

It's a stretch you would think, but as i've being saying above it's happening at the moment. Now i don't know all the facts of the case, but my mate knows the chap involved and this was the basis for the case. Whatever else came after i don't know and cannot discuss anyway, but you get the idea.

I have been stopped more times this year than in the previous few years and frankly it's great to see. However it also goes the other way. A ranger stopped me 2 weeks before the season started. Very long story short i got questioned and quizzed about using "deer rifles" for hunting foxes. This attitude leads to the bullshít you hear from people saying that deer legal calibers should not be allowed to be used after night fall to prevent poaching.

A season ban useing anything other than a shotgun for lamping foxs from september till march would do the trick anyone caught with a lamp and rifle after dark is ****ed. Its not much to have to give up couple of months of shooting foxs with a rifle to cripple the deer poachers before ya all start going mad its just an idea

Cass · 18-10-2013 10:01AM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

........... Its not much to have to give up couple of months of shooting foxs with a rifle to cripple the deer poachers before ya all start going mad its just an idea

You are basing this on the fact that every one with a deer legal caliber stalks.

There are what?, about 3,000 - 3,500 deer licenses given out. How many full bore rifle licenses are there? About 20,000+. Even if my numbers are way out the fact remains that it's not illegal to shoot foxes at the same time as the deer season runs, people do not shoot deer, but foxes, and in my case this happened BEFORE the season started.

Lastly stopping deer legal calibers being used at night will not stop poaching. They will simply use a smaller caliber and continue to poach. These people are doing illegal things already so what makes anyone think changing the caliber allowed at night will stop them? It's akin to the pistol ban. It'll only affect legal/law abiding shooters, and the criminal element will not be phased.

Vegeta · 18-10-2013 10:18AM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

A season ban useing anything other than a shotgun for lamping foxs from september till march would do the trick anyone caught with a lamp and rifle after dark is ****ed. Its not much to have to give up couple of months of shooting foxs with a rifle to cripple the deer poachers before ya all start going mad its just an idea

No, this is discriminating against fox hunters for the perceived benefit of deer hunters. I say that as a deer hunter myself. Would never agree with such a proposal because as Cass points out, these cowboys don't care about the law as it is. They certainly wont care about any new laws.

Also any new laws only work if they are enforced. The problem we have now is not lack of laws, we already have all the legislation we need, we are lacking enforcement. More enforcement just needs to be funded.

The Aussie · 18-10-2013 04:32PM

sikahuntejack wrote: »

A season ban useing anything other than a shotgun for lamping foxs from september till march would do the trick anyone caught with a lamp and rifle after dark is ****ed.

You do know how easy it is to get Slugs don't you???

I don't go to many RFD's but even I know of 2 in the Munster region.

A box of 5 for €8 at one bloke, did not ask at the second.

A Slug is good for out to under 100m, any chin dribbling imbecile with a lamp can get well and truly under that.

rowa · 18-10-2013 04:39PM

The Aussie wrote: »

You do know how easy it is to get Slugs don't you???

I don't go to many RFD's but even I know of 2 in the Munster region.

A box of 5 for €8 at one bloke, did not ask at the second.

A Slug is good for out to under 100m, any chin dribbling imbecile with a lamp can get well and truly under that.

Slugs are restricted ammunition though, if a rfd sells them to someone without a restricted licence then they are breaking the law too.

The Aussie · 18-10-2013 04:43PM

rowa wrote: »

Slugs are restricted ammunition though, if a rfd sells them to someone without a restricted licence then they are breaking the law too.

Do you think that will stop people???

You can even get moulds to cast your own.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Evening herald article on deer poaching

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County