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New stove into existing fireplace - worth the hassle???

  • 12-12-2011 11:02AM
    #1
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭


    I have a large sitting room (26ft x 16 ft) that has two radiators in it and an open fireplace. It is always bloody cold, even when the fire is lit:mad:.

    I had my first look at my brothers new cast iron stove yesterday and I was very impressed with the heat it threw out into a space as large as my sitting room. However, he didn't have an existing fireplace so he just drilled through his wall and vented it out and up above the eaves.

    I saw another recent thread on here from a guy who wanted to put a stove into an existing fireplace. This is similar to what I want to do but there are two things holding me back:

    1. The hearth
    I think I'd have to expand the hearth as the stove would be right up to the edge of the hearth, in case something rolled out onto the wooden floor.

    2. The flue
    The stove would have to be vented out the back and then up the existing chimney of my single storey house. Is this a DIY job (I'm pretty handy) and how easy would it be to clean the flue? I've seen both rigid and flexible flues, single and twin walled. Which would be the best to buy? Does the flue have to go all the way up to the top of the chimney which is about 16 feet high? A woman I work with has a stove sitting on her hearth and her flue just goes halfway up her chimney and she says she has no issues with it.

    I have to find a solution to heat that room of mine as the rads just can't manage it and the open fire, when lit, has to be kept going for four hours at least before you see a rise in temperature.

    Finally, I know you can get inset stoves, but that would mean taking out the existing fireplace which I don't want to do.

    Finally, finally, what kw stove would I need to heat this room? Is it better to go for a large stove so I could leave the door open and let some heat out into the rest of the house too? Would I lose much heat up the chimney with the stove?


Comments

  • #2
    beertons
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 23,262 ✭✭✭✭beertons


    Dave, if you went for an insert you wouldn't have to get a flu. It fits into the fireplace. My dad was in the same position as you, big room, 2 rads and open fire useless. The insert now is the job. Heading over to McCarthy's myself to look at one for my house.


  • #3
    Carlow52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    1: I would go the whole hog and remove the fireplace and do it properly, all the other options are bugly out in my view. { dont like inserts either}

    A doubled door-ed stove needs a smaller hearth....

    Depending on the state of your chimney u may not need to line it

    re
    her flue just goes halfway up her chimney
    the risk here is that soot will collect between the outside of the new flue and the old flue and possibly catch fire.

    re cleaning see some posts by North west here on the topic, based on a proper job.

    re size
    see here for some ideas
    http://www.murphyheating.com/charn_island.php

    I have the island 1 in a 30 by 13.5 by 8 room with 2 big north facing windows and it was 26 degrees last night at the back of the room, burning timber.

    I have a video of it on my laptop which keep me warm when I travel:D

    ps I did the work my self so am happy to give u some pointers off line if u want


  • #4
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,819 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The quickest way I know to heat a room is with an electric fan heater. They are not silent, though, but if it was just an issue of raising the temperature quickly and then having the radiators maintain it, you might find one bearable.

    Nothing can beat a stove though, and I would say they are well worth the hassle. An open fireplace is useless because the efficiency is so low that it can actually have a negative impact on heating as the cold air the combustion sucks into the house from outside can more than offset the heat given off in some circumstances.

    A stove exposed in the room is going to be more efficient than an inset one, but that is still way better than an open fireplace. I do not understand the argument that a flue is not necessary. An inset stove is a stove. The same reasoning for an insulated flue applies just the same I would have thought. As suggested, I would rip out the existing fireplace and fit an exposed stove with a flexi flue that is insulated. Extend the hearth area in front of the stove to meet regs.


  • #5
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    Thanks for the replies lads.

    What I forgot to mention is my other half does not appear to be too keen on getting a stove as she likes the open fireplace, no matter how utterly inefficient and ineffectual at heating the room it is. If I mentioned that I'd also want to rip out the fireplace, which is just 4 years old and cost a couple of grand, she'd freak. On the flip side, I am the one who uses this room (its got a home cinema set up) and thus I freeze my butt off, while she has a pellet stove to keep her toasty in the sunroom.

    If I had the money (which I don't), I'd get the "inglenook" type fireplace where I would sit the stove into it and vent it straight up. However, I'll have to go with plan A and enlarge the hearth and vent it out the back. Cleaning it will be an issue though.


  • #6
    beertons
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 23,262 ✭✭✭✭beertons


    You don't have to touch the fire place if you go for an insert. Get a 7 or 7.5Kw one, room will be toasty in no time. Everyone loves an open fire, but once you've sat in the room with the insert going, you'll wonder how you survived without it.


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  • #7
    Carlow52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    Prosperous Dave wrote: »
    Cleaning it will be an issue though.

    not if u follow what North west did, its essentially a t piece on the end of the flue.

    will u fit the registry plate vertically or horizontally, u need the latter if using T piece?


  • #8
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    Carlow52 wrote: »
    not if u follow what North west did, its essentially a t piece on the end of the flue.

    will u fit the registry plate vertically or horizontally, u need the latter if using T piece?

    Tbh, I don't know what a registry plate is. I have t pieces on the flues of my pellet stoves and they work a treat when it comes to cleaning the flue. However, my existing chimney goes up a few feet, bends off to the right fir a foot or so, and then goes up vertically. This is hard enough to clean at the moment. I don't know how I'd manage it with a smaller flue for my proposed stove.


  • #9
    North West
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 439 ✭✭North West


    Hi
    First of all
    1. get length of room, width of room, height of room and multiply them together.
    2.If your room has average no of doos and windows and walls insulated multiply your first answer by 5.
    or
    3.If your room has average no of doos and windows and walls and not well insulated multiply your first answer by 6
    4.If your room has average no of doos and windows and walls insulated and north facing multiply your first answer by 7.

    When you get your answer that is the no of btu's you require to heat the room. Google stanley stoves and go to the tech info. It will give you info on the size of stove you need to heat room. Get the teh info on what ever stove it takes. Then see will it fit i fireplace opening
    NW


  • #10
    Xennon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Xennon


    Get the right sized stove to match the size of the room, too small and it will never heat it up, too big and you will HAVE to open windows and doors to let the heat out.

    Do a search on here regarding stoves, there are some very knowledgeable people here who have set out various issues regarding installing stoves.

    Fitted an insert stove last year, made an amazing difference to the heating cost of the house, one small bucket of coal does per day.

    The stove fitted into the fireplace easily once the old fireplace fireback was removed. If you are looking to fit a standard stove then I think you should consider removing the fireplace, create an much bigger opening say 5' high and the width of the chimney, kinda like an old irish fireplace and then sit the stove into the recess.

    There have been huge discussions here regarding flues and chimneys. My conclusion from doing allot of research on this is that shops will tell you all you need is an adaptor added to your existing flue. Sure, if your flue is the same diameter as the exit of the stove and more importantly is completely sound and installed properly (I would scope it to confirm). The diameter is an issue because stoves are designed to work at an optimum when the flue draws a determined air flow rate. Secondly the integrity of the chimneys existing flue is important as the gases from a stove are of a far higher temperature than a normal fireplace.

    So to negate all the risks I ran a flexi liner the full length of the chimney and attached to the insert stove, this was sealed to the stove with fire cement and attached to a cowl at the top of the chimney. The liner connects to the stove at 45 degrees so that any build up of gunk will fall to the fire, also the liner can be cleaned from the stove. Its important that there is nowhere in the flue system that a buildup of soot can occur as this can lead to a chimney fire. The liner was packed into the chimney with vermiculite.

    It is advisable to extend the hearth to handle any coals that might roll out while the door is open.

    Things to remember are that you are dealing with much higher temperatures than a normal fire, draught is important for an efficient stove, whatever you do, do it with safety in mind.


  • #11
    gomamochi1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭gomamochi1


    Hi Carlow
    We are fitting a dimplex multi fuel inset stove into a house we are currently gutting. Can you PM me your contact details for a spot of advice please?
    Cheers


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  • #12
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    I spent several hours on the net last night looking into this and its going to work out a lot more expensive than I thought if I do it right. No matter what option I go for, i.e. insert or free standing, I'll have to do some alterations to the existing fireplace. While I'd prefer to take out whats there and enlarge the opening so I can sit the stove into it, this would mean some structural work to support the chimney or else I risk it coming crashing down on me. AFAIK, there is a rsj supporting the chimney just above the fireplace opening and taking this out, without putting a new support in place wouldn't be the wisest thing I've ever done. The house is just 5 years old so the existing flue should be ok but I'd prefer to fit an insulated flue to do the job right.

    So where to go from here? Do I engage a specialist chimney company to make the necessary alterations to the chimney breast so the stove will fit or do I contact a stove company who can supply the stove and let them make the alterations to the fireplace? I plan on redecorating this room next year anyway so I wouldn't mind the disturbance. Its the cost of all this work AND the cost of the stove that will be the deciding factor.


  • #13
    Carlow52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    What is the argument for putting an insulated flue inside a flue that is only 5 years old?


    The stove u chose will probably have a 6 inch flue and ur chimney is prolly 8" so getting an insulated flue in to a 'bendy' chimney will not be easy and may only last 5 years and will be a demon to get out.

    I doubt if its an RSJ, more lightly a precast concrete 'gather'' that the flue sits on.

    What I did with mine, based on advice from a fitter where I bought the stove, was to gently drill a hole through the chimney and the flue pipe above where u want to put in the new lintel.[ u wont need a gather now as fire will be fully ducted ]
    I drilled a 10mm hole withg an sds drill, being gently when breaking into the flue.

    Only when all the demolition work is done and the new lintel is in did I remove the bit. The bit held the rest of the flue up, its bedded in light concrete anyway so wasn't going to move.

    I have a pic somewhere...


  • #14
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    going with a stove myself but we have a large opening on a large stone fireplace so have to decide whether to go with the inset or the traditional. :)


  • #15
    paddy147
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭paddy147


    I did this last year.I took an old horrible 1970s fireplace and ripped it out,I also had the old tatty chimney breast demolished and had a new one built.

    I installed a large Stovax Riva 66 multi fuel inset stove and used a twin walled flexi flue liner too.

    Its an 8kw stove.
    I burn briquettes,wood and also turf in it.

    Chucks out some serious heat.:D

    The house is completely open plan design,with a large living area and a large kitchen/dining area downstairs.It also benifits from being completely insulated internaly from ground up to attic,so the house holds the heat all day and night long.Sometimes its too warm in the house (cant believe I said that).


    Yes,there was and is alot of work involved,but on cold windy days like today,its so well worth every euro spent on doing it.:D


  • #16
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,819 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Xennon wrote: »
    Secondly the integrity of the chimneys existing flue is important as the gases from a stove are of a far higher temperature than a normal fireplace.

    So to negate all the risks I ran a flexi liner the full length of the chimney and attached to the insert stove, this was sealed to the stove with fire cement and attached to a cowl at the top of the chimney. The liner connects to the stove at 45 degrees so that any build up of gunk will fall to the fire, also the liner can be cleaned from the stove. Its important that there is nowhere in the flue system that a buildup of soot can occur as this can lead to a chimney fire. The liner was packed into the chimney with vermiculite.

    It is advisable to extend the hearth to handle any coals that might roll out while the door is open.

    Things to remember are that you are dealing with much higher temperatures than a normal fire, draught is important for an efficient stove, whatever you do, do it with safety in mind.

    Sounds like you did things right. My understanding is that you need an insulated flue liner because the flue gasses are colder, not hotter, than an open fireplace. Stoves are over 300% more efficient than an open fireplace, partly because a high fraction of the heat generated from the fuel is transmitted to the room, and less of the heat disappears up the flue, whereas with an open fireplace, most of the heat is going straight up the flue, so the gases are hotter.

    So to reduce the chance of condensation from the cooler flue gasses with a stove, you need to insulate the flue so the gases stay hot and creosote and other combustion products are less likely to condense out.
    Carlow52 wrote: »
    What is the argument for putting an insulated flue inside a flue that is only 5 years old?.

    I put an insulted liner into a brand new build for the above reasons.


  • #17
    pyromania
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭pyromania


    can u fit a fire insert if u have a back boiler in place..


  • #18
    Xennon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Xennon


    My understanding is that you need an insulated flue liner because the flue gasses are colder, not hotter, than an open fireplace

    Sorry yes, I'm old and tired these days. You don't need a dual wall flue if you are using a flexi liner within an existing flue, this packed in with vermiculite essentially creates the insulated flue required for the stove. If however you are running the flue out through an external wall and then up, then yes you need an insulated solid flue pipe.

    If you are going with an external flue, then it might be worth checking with a wavin pipe in its place, for a good draught. Mate of mine is stuck with a stove installed with external flu, but terrible draught because of his proximity to a hill. If he opens the doors while its burning it fills the place with smoke.

    Anyway there is a long but excellent thread here on boards about the safe installation of stoves, and the difference in regulations between here and the UK. If I get a minute I'll go fetch and stick a link here.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055417311

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056390351

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055394080


  • #19
    Kashkai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭Kashkai


    Had a guy round to see about enlarging the fireplace to fit a stove in. To break out a larger opening, incl. fitting new lintel and replastering, €900. Add another €1,000 (at least) for a stove and flue and I'll be at the €2,000 mark:eek:.

    The woman in work who picked up a 4kw stove for €250 at a liquidation sale and spent another €100 on a flue was laughing when I told her.


  • #20
    Carlow52
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Carlow52


    900 is Celtic Tiger stuff.

    I did mine in 2 days and I am an accountant:)


  • #21
    Avns1s
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    Prosperous Dave wrote: »
    Had a guy round to see about enlarging the fireplace to fit a stove in. To break out a larger opening, incl. fitting new lintel and replastering, €900. Add another €1,000 (at least) for a stove and flue and I'll be at the €2,000 mark:eek:.

    The woman in work who picked up a 4kw stove for €250 at a liquidation sale and spent another €100 on a flue was laughing when I told her.

    Dave, is it an arched opening in your existing fireplace?

    I managed to fit a Stanley Oisin into one of these with a slight trimming of the legs. Flue goes out the back and up into a flue adaptor. You will need to extend the hearth but this can be done with a piece of granite worktop literally left in front of the existing hearth. I can (at a push) clean from the top down and into the stove so thats not a problem.

    The Oisin is plenty to heat my room which is similar in size to yours, too much heat in fact and thats using turf.

    I priced an Oisin today, new Matt Black at €399 and flue adaptor at about €120.

    Let me know if this is an option you'd consider and if you want more detail.


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  • #22
    onekeano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭onekeano


    Am looking to get a stove installed in Dublin. It's an insert (probably Boru) to where an existing Gas stove sits.

    There is a complication :rolleyes:, it's in a new extension and there is a chiney of only around 2.4m so I need to have a stainless steel flue installed to go up the outside wall of the house and above the eaves (similar to below)

    [IMG]C:StoveFlu[/IMG]


    If anyone has a suggestion as to where I would get a competitive quote I would be very grateful.

    Roy


  • #23
    Sarah77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭Sarah77


    I have a small fireplace (opening 450mmx heigh590mm) that I would like to keep as it has ornate tiles and cast iron. But the open fire is useless and this room which is the main living room is cold unless the heating is on and a really good fir going. It's a 14 x16 ft room with the stairs in it up to a small landing. I was thinking of getting an Oisin stove and putting it on the hearth connecting the flue outlet at the rear to then go up the chimney.i recently discovered i have no flue lining in the chimney so will have to get a flexible flue liner dropped down the chimney and connect it to the pipe from the stove. its 150 year old a small dormer style cottage. A few questions
    Can I do this without making any changes to the existing fireplace, just run the pipe up to connect with the flue?
    Is it worth it in terms of heat when you put that against the of expense and hassle.. Only the Oisin size will fit on my hearth and allow the pipe through to connect up with the chimney flue.
    I presume you could disconnect the stove at a later date and move it to another room without a chimney?
    Do chimney balloons really work?
    I think I will have to get a flue lining in the chimney anyway if I want to use the fire as ther may be some damage to the brickwork in the chimney and it could be dangerous with carbon dioxide
    Need a cheap solution to the massive heat loss in that room
    Also what sort of price would you be looking at for installation? the Oisin is coming in at 449


  • #24
    Sarah77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭Sarah77


    Getting quotes of 1200 to 1600. Cost of 6m flue liner kit 600, the rest then on the elbow and steel pipes, adaptor, vermic.. And labour. Seems excessive plus they are talking about a new hearth as mine is only 460 mm. Any ideas...


  • #25
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,555 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Sarah77 wrote: »
    Getting quotes of 1200 to 1600. Cost of 6m flue liner kit 600, the rest then on the elbow and steel pipes, adaptor, vermic.. And labour. Seems excessive plus they are talking about a new hearth as mine is only 460 mm. Any ideas...

    At 600 for twin wall stainless steel youa are being robbed blind unless im Misson something here. Its less than 200 quid for 6meters of the cheaper grades, I certainly don't think it jumps to 600 for the better heaviest grade if that's what you are quoted for. I deal with a company that specialises in import amd manufacture of flues. I'll look at their price list tomorrow for you.


  • #26
    Crazy Eye
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 338 ✭✭Crazy Eye


    Sarah77 wrote: »
    Getting quotes of 1200 to 1600. Cost of 6m flue liner kit 600, the rest then on the elbow and steel pipes, adaptor, vermic.. And labour. Seems excessive plus they are talking about a new hearth as mine is only 460 mm. Any ideas...
    mi flues in meath or excel industries in coolmine complete twin wall stainless flexi flue kit from either for around 320 euros


  • #27
    Sarah77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭Sarah77


    Thanks guys. Woodies are offering installation including a flue lining for the chimney for 699 and that includes all the parts which seems very reasonable. It's for their own brand but as Phoenix stoves are a separate company I might give them a shout, has anybody used them?


  • #28
    ned quinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 ✭ned quinn


    i want to build a fireplace but not sure of the width and height any ideas the room is 14,8 wide 16 long and 8.4 high


  • #29
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    When you say build a fireplace what do you mean.What is its use?what type of fireplace is it going to be?decorative or functional
    Most fire breasts are around 64inches up to ceiling it slows for two sizes of fireplace a 58in and a 62in


  • #30
    waylander2002
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 311 ✭✭waylander2002


    i moved into a bungalow with a new oil stove installed and a nice new flue as well, id like to replace it with a multifuel stove and like look of the blacksmith anvil, i see a second hand one with extra part to heat boiler, would there be any point in buying this? and just using it as a normal stove for the moment, i see its 4 output with the boiler or 6 for a newone without boiler


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