UK considered giving half of NI to ROI

bear1 · 03-01-2014 09:31AM #1

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29884724.html

I wonder what would have happened if this had actually became a reality.
Could this have made things better?
Hard to see them turning Belfast into essentially the new Berlin Wall and I cant wrap my head around how splitting that city in half would have worked.
Still very interesting though

P_1 · 03-01-2014 09:41AM

I can see the theory of it alright. Keep both communities separated so they stop shooting each other. I think that formed part of the logic of the peace walls. A bit naive though in my eyes. Frankly I'm surprised it managed to go so far up the chain in the UK before being poo poohed.

moxin · 03-01-2014 09:46AM

The Nazi's would have been proud, shows you how bad Thatchers regime was to even entertain the idea.

Other incentives, such as loyalty tests for benefits and large-scale internment "should drive out large numbers", they speculated.

bear1 · 03-01-2014 09:48AM

Im curious how the half Belfast to ROI would have worked, I imagine a bit like Berlin before 1990.
I imagine Derry would have become the main town in Donegal?

P_1 · 03-01-2014 09:58AM

bear1 wrote: »

Im curious how the half Belfast to ROI would have worked, I imagine a bit like Berlin before 1990.
I imagine Derry would have become the main town in Donegal?

I think the common travel area was in effect by the 80's. I'd imagine that most of the heavy industry (H&W, Shortts etc) would have remained in North Belfast mind

hfallada · 03-01-2014 10:03AM

How many Irish people want NI? If the people riot over a flag, how bad will it be over a united Ireland? Most young people don't see people from NI as Irish, but British. Plus I'm sure there would a need to throw some foreign firms from the republic up to the north to show were integrating NI into the republic.

Do we really want some of the those wrack job NI politicians being able to run for the dail? I can't see a single benefit for the ROI taking over the running of NI

harryr711 · 03-01-2014 10:15AM

hfallada wrote: »

How many Irish people want NI? If the people riot over a flag, how bad will it be over a united Ireland? Most young people don't see people from NI as Irish, but British. Plus I'm sure there would a need to throw some foreign firms from the republic up to the north to show were integrating NI into the republic.

Do we really want some of the those wrack job NI politicians being able to run for the dail? I can't see a single benefit for the ROI taking over the running of NI

The majority of Irish people want unification, and according the an Irish Times poll would be prepared to pay extra taxes if necessary. I'm young, I see the six counties as Irish even if some of the residents consider themselves to be British. A single economy, with one tax system, legal system, etc. and ultimately one larger market is attractive for investors/businesses.

bear1 · 03-01-2014 10:15AM

hfallada wrote: »

How many Irish people want NI? If the people riot over a flag, how bad will it be over a united Ireland? Most young people don't see people from NI as Irish, but British. Plus I'm sure there would a need to throw some foreign firms from the republic up to the north to show were integrating NI into the republic.

Do we really want some of the those wrack job NI politicians being able to run for the dail? I can't see a single benefit for the ROI taking over the running of NI

To be honest, that whole situation confuses me.

bear1 · 03-01-2014 10:18AM

harryr711 wrote: »

The majority of Irish people want unification, and according the an Irish Times poll would be prepared to pay extra taxes if necessary. I'm young, I see the six counties as Irish even if some of the residents consider themselves to be British. A single economy, with one tax system, legal system, etc. and ultimately one larger market is attractive for investors/businesses.

I wouldn't be prepared for extra taxes to take on something which used to belong to us.
Times have changed, for everyone and in no way would I pay more to have the North. This is my opinion

moxin · 03-01-2014 10:46AM

hfallada wrote: »

Most young people don't see people from NI as Irish, but British.

Where did you spring this rubbish from?

Fr Tod Umptious · 03-01-2014 12:33PM

harryr711 wrote: »

The majority of Irish people want unification, and according the an Irish Times poll would be prepared to pay extra taxes if necessary. I'm young, I see the six counties as Irish even if some of the residents consider themselves to be British. A single economy, with one tax system, legal system, etc. and ultimately one larger market is attractive for investors/businesses.

Even though I believe that a majority in the Republic would vote for a UI I would be very wary of poll data for something that may never happen in the lifetime of the people being asked the question.

Poll data from NI may be more accurate, as the people there are ones that will decide, based on who they elect to the Assembly, whether a UI vote may ultimately take place.
And as we have seen from recent NI pools there is little appetite for a UI at the moment.

Happyman42 · 03-01-2014 12:55PM

Just further proof for me that had the Irish government been more strident and brave there is no telling what could have been achieved. From the renewed outbreak in 69 it's abundantly clear that the British where searching for the easiest way out of a situation that exasperated and had defeated them.
The ultimate responsibility for what happened lies with the two powers vested with finding solutions. The vacumn was filled by the two extremes until the British manned up and done the deal that needed to be done.

Manach · 03-01-2014 01:09PM

It does seem rather ironic given the historic context that the Boundary Commission report in the 1920s to change the border was shelved and (AFAIR) only suggested modest changes.

[Jackass] · 03-01-2014 02:09PM

Jesus, the absolute contempt she had for the Irish.

Although in fairness, some of them did try and blow her up.

bear1 · 03-01-2014 02:14PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Just further proof for me that had the Irish government been more strident and brave there is no telling what could have been achieved. From the renewed outbreak in 69 it's abundantly clear that the British where searching for the easiest way out of a situation that exasperated and had defeated them.
The ultimate responsibility for what happened lies with the two powers vested with finding solutions. The vacumn was filled by the two extremes until the British manned up and done the deal that needed to be done.

Have to totally agree with this.
Does anyone know how much NI costs the UK every year? and how it compares to Wales and Scotland?

An Coilean · 03-01-2014 02:58PM

hfallada wrote: »

Most young people don't see people from NI as Irish, but British.

Sorry, what? Can you back ths up?

Tramps Like Us · 03-01-2014 03:01PM

Would have worked out excellently for the IRA, plenty of new staging grounds for them, would have increased their effectiveness to south armagh levels

Tramps Like Us · 03-01-2014 03:02PM

moxin wrote: »

Where did you spring this rubbish from?

Not even most British people view loyalists from the north as british

the_syco · 03-01-2014 03:32PM

bear1 wrote: »

I wouldn't be prepared for extra taxes to take on something which used to belong to us.
Times have changed, for everyone and in no way would I pay more to have the North. This is my opinion

You'd be paying extra taxes to support the North. The North currently receives lots of money from the UK and Ireland.

bear1 · 03-01-2014 03:40PM

the_syco wrote: »

You'd be paying extra taxes to support the North. The North currently receives lots of money from the UK and Ireland.

The post however was made out that the general population here in ROI would be prepared to pay extra taxes to get NI back.
I'm simply saying I wouldn't but of course I have no control over that if it's passed in a referendum.
I didn't know though that the ROI is handing money over to the North.
Any figures?

Happyman42 · 03-01-2014 03:43PM

bear1 wrote: »

I didn't know though that the ROI is handing money over to the North.
Any figures?

Have a tour of the carparks of Asda and B&Q and look at numberplates.;)
The cost of partition to this island is unknown, there are many many variables to take into account.

P_1 · 03-01-2014 04:14PM

the_syco wrote: »

You'd be paying extra taxes to support the North. The North currently receives lots of money from the UK and Ireland.

It would be a brave/naive politician to raise that point in the context of irish politics mind

Karl Stein · 03-01-2014 05:28PM

Love this bit:

However, officials later noted that while moving half-a-million people -- mostly Catholics -- might be acceptable for a totalitarian regime, human rights arguments would be an obstacle.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/uk-officials-considered-walled-ghetto-for-catholics-29884724.html

Not that half a million people would have suffered from psychological trauma, violence and murder but that 'human rights arguments would be an obstacle'.

Despicable.

Happyman42 · 03-01-2014 05:33PM

Carlos Roca wrote: »

Love this bit:

Not that half a million people would have suffered from psychological trauma, violence and murder but that 'human rights arguments would be an obstacle'.

Despicable.

Pesky Human Rights! British government thinking hasn't really changed in centuries. Image is everything.

Allknowing · 03-01-2014 05:34PM

Including South Armagh....

Gee Thanks Maggie :-)

spank_inferno · 03-01-2014 05:37PM

I think Fermanagh moving over at least would have made some sense.

Only 65k people... Mostly catholic, nationalist.... And it would look better on a map.

spank_inferno · 03-01-2014 05:41PM

bear1 wrote: »

I didn't know though that the ROI is handing money over to the North.
Any figures?

Unsure of the exact amount but since Bertie's 1997 election victory it has been at least a couple of hundred million.... Mostly in small chunks with some largish transfers for capital projects.

hfallada · 03-01-2014 05:43PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Sorry, what? Can you back ths up?

I have had this discussion with my friends and in college and most young people don't view the people of Northern Ireland as Irish. I seriously doubt there is any stats of young Irish persons view of north Irish people. But unlike older generations, most young people have the view that citizens of NI are far more British than Irish.

Karl Stein · 03-01-2014 05:49PM

hfallada wrote: »

I have had this discussion with my friends and in college and most young people don't view the people of Northern Ireland as Irish. I seriously doubt there is any stats of young Irish persons view of north Irish people. But unlike older generations, most young people have the view that citizens of NI are far more British than Irish.

Short answer 'No' i.e. you cannot back it up.

This is the politics forum. Your chats with the company you keep do not constitute evidence of anything other than you hang out with people with bizarre views.

Tuco88 · 03-01-2014 06:13PM

Id love to see a UI, but being realistic its not going to happen anytime soon. The longer it goes, the more difficult it looks for me. Or is it already at the stage that the people of the NI are happy enough they way it is, or heading to. If it was to be done i would think changing single counties slowly, would work best starting with Fermanagh, derry.... maybe 2 - 3 years between each all depending.

VinLieger · 03-01-2014 07:55PM

harryr711 wrote: »

The majority of Irish people want unification, and according the an Irish Times poll would be prepared to pay extra taxes if necessary. I'm young, I see the six counties as Irish even if some of the residents consider themselves to be British. A single economy, with one tax system, legal system, etc. and ultimately one larger market is attractive for investors/businesses.

Yes and the giant cluster fvck that it would take to get anywhere near a viable and working United Ireland is worth it?

bear1 · 03-01-2014 09:47PM

spank_inferno wrote: »

I think Fermanagh moving over at least would have made some sense.

Only 65k people... Mostly catholic, nationalist.... And it would look better on a map.

We'd have most of Lough Erne then

tdv123 · 04-01-2014 03:25AM

Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Armagh, Derry & West Belfast should be given to the ROI. It would be a nice gesture to the nationalists there who've had to put up with such bullsh!t for so long.

The contempt some people have on here towards our brothers & sisters in the North who yearn to be with us (were they belong) astonishes me. I bet people living in Scotland & Wales had the same thoughts about us in 1919-21 but once we settled down they realized their views were misguided because of conflict & we were really no different to them.

Shame on you Free Staters.

getzls · 04-01-2014 10:04AM

tdv123 wrote: »

West Belfast should be given to the ROI.

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

tdv123 · 04-01-2014 11:14AM

getzls wrote: »

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

That won't work, number 7 is occupied by a staunch unionist, he won't move an inch not inch.

getzls · 04-01-2014 01:02PM

tdv123 wrote: »

That won't work, number 7 is occupied by a staunch unionist, he won't move an inch not inch.

Fairly sure 16 and 90 are Unionists also!

04-01-2014 01:14PM

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

spank_inferno · 04-01-2014 02:05PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

I agree.

By 2100 the UK may look radically different or not even be there.

I think by 2100, NI will be a small independent state, self-ruling but with a royal head of state... Like Canada.

'Ireland Lite'.

bear1 · 04-01-2014 02:43PM

Interesting 6541, I'm actually quite curious even as what the whole situation will look like after the Scottish vote.
If they vote to leave then NI will be quite secluded from the rest of the UK.
Don't know if they would be an independent state though, just doesnt seem likely but again an interesting point.
If the North became independent would it be the RONI? Hmmm interesting indeed

Happyman42 · 04-01-2014 03:42PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

It should never have cost the Irish taxpayer one penny/cent to secure their border, (as pointless and ineffective as the sop to Unionists was).
If we had adopted the attitude of pressuring them to do something proactive earlier, a lot less people would have died.
The release of these papers show that the British would have agreed to almost anything to get out.

Dr.Tank Adams · 04-01-2014 08:25PM

TBH I doubt it would have made much difference, you still have disgruntled Nationalists that were left in the British section and positively raging Unionists that had been ceded to the south, it may well have intensified the violence rather than alleviated it. Like can you imagine the absolute rabble-rousing field day someone like Paisley could have whipped up if this had happened.

grainnewhale · 04-01-2014 09:59PM

would have been a better idea, to force ulster unioinists to actually accept all of ulster and give the brits cavan, monaghan and Donegal. Then when it was shown that the democratic wish of the majority of people in northern Ireland were in favour of a united Ireland. it would show up unionists for the undemocratic, bigoted ignoramus they are.

.jacksparrow. · 04-01-2014 10:04PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

David Cameron only said the other day he wants northern Ireland to remain part of the UK.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25565100

This year, let the message go out from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to everyone in Scotland," he said, "We want you to stay."

grainnewhale · 04-01-2014 10:26PM

getzls wrote: »

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

They could decide the same way as the original six counties were decided. Tell those who oppose it, to suck it up or be shot.

Dr.Tank Adams · 05-01-2014 12:49AM

grainnewhale wrote: »

would have been a better idea, to force ulster unioinists to actually accept all of ulster and give the brits cavan, monaghan and Donegal. Then when it was shown that the democratic wish of the majority of people in northern Ireland were in favour of a united Ireland. it would show up unionists for the undemocratic, bigoted ignoramus they are.

The time to do that was 1920, unfortunately that ship was long sailed by then.

tdv123 · 05-01-2014 02:03AM

getzls wrote: »

Fairly sure 16 and 90 are Unionists also!

In all seriousness tho Tyrone, Fermanagh (who's councils declared their allegiance to the Dail in the 20's) & South Armagh should be given back to us. It's undemocratic to hold people to ransom against their will. There's benefits it that for Unionists as well if they wanted to remain "British".

Lou.m · 05-01-2014 02:09AM

It is ridiculous. The bit left in NI would have been unsustainable as such a small community. I wonder how Unionists feel about knowing this now. I imagine it would have eventually meant the unionist community would dwindle out in the half left. Once you start giving up territory would become inevitable unionists would leave for better opportunities to the mainland.

The truth is though I don't imagine Ireland would have coped well with this at the time.

I don't know why people are surprised with that woman...she was a sociopath who hated her own people too.

tdv123 · 05-01-2014 02:31AM

7 September 1921: In a letter to de Valera regarding counties Fermanagh and Tyrone, Lloyd George acknowledged that his government had a very weak case on the issue of "forcing these two counties against their will" to be part of Northern Ireland.

24 September 1921:Speaking in Dundee, Winston Churchill threatened war if the Dáil refused to accept the British offer.

28 November 1921: After Westminster decided to hand over responsibility for local government to Stormont, Tyrone County Council pledged its allegiance to Dáil Éireann. Eight smaller public bodies followed. That same day a bill was introduced in Stormont which allowed it to dissolve any local authority. Offices of Tyrone County Council were subsequently raided by the police and their records seized on 2 December 1921.

We can see just how unjust the border county situations are.

Fratton Fred · 05-01-2014 10:50PM

tdv123 wrote: »

We can see just how unjust the border county situations are.

It is customary to provide a link to quotes, to back them up. I think we all know who Winston Churchill was.

Dr.Tank Adams · 05-01-2014 11:48PM

Lou.m wrote: »

It is ridiculous. The bit left in NI would have been unsustainable as such a small community. I wonder how Unionists feel about knowing this now. I imagine it would have eventually meant the unionist community would dwindle out in the half left. Once you start giving up territory would become inevitable unionists would leave for better opportunities to the mainland.

The truth is though I don't imagine Ireland would have coped well with this at the time.

I don't know why people are surprised with that woman...she was a sociopath who hated her own people too.

Don't know about that, as long as they had Belfast NI would be able to survive, many of the areas that would have been passed over like Fermanagh/Tyrone/south Armagh were economically insignificant.

grainnewhale · 06-01-2014 05:06AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is customary to provide a link to quotes, to back them up. I think we all know who Winston Churchill was.

And what he was.

UK considered giving half of NI to ROI

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