Driving test lifesaver procedure

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:10PM #1

Hey all hows it going?
I just sat my driving test for a full A license and failed. My instructor, the candidate who followed me and myself are all extremely puzzled as to why I failed.

SAFETY GLANCES.

I failed under the heading of safety glances. Ok.

So the routine we all learn for turning left or right at a junction is
1)Observation
2)Signal
3)maneuver- (its a drift)
4)position
5)Speed (slowing down!)
6)Look (LIFESAVER)

Or: O S M P S L (Or a similar acronym)

The lifesaver is done before you tilt the bike into the corner. Yes?

NOT ACCORDING TO MY EXAMINER ITS NOT.
ACCORDING TO HER ITS
1) Observation
2) Signal
3) LIFESAVER
4) Maneuver
5) Position
6) Speed
7) LIFESAVER

Since I have never ever heard of doing a lifesaver or 'safety glance' here its needless to say I clocked up quite a lot of these errors during the test.

Any thoughts on this newly created lifesaver are much appreciated. Even if you check in BOTH the RSA ' this is your bike' and the 'Police Riders Handbook' for the UK, there is no mention of a safety glance after your signal. This amount of looking behind you is going top lead to an accident or whiplash.

Generally I recognise my wrong doings when explained to me and agree with them if they make sense. The ONLY other mark on my sheet was for the 'walk along side', I didn't do any rear observation before it. My bad, I'll go with that.

I would appeal this if only to get a free re-test, after reading the citizens information page Im unsure if I will though, heres the webpage for appealing: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_tests/appealing_your_driving_test_results.html

Thanks for reading.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:12PM

Oh by the way, I asked her to repeat what she said abut when to do safety glances and i took it down in front of her word for word,
"You are expected to do safety glances before you drift approaching a turn"

News to me.

jayok · 24-01-2014 03:23PM

Did you do this in the Finglas area? If so, I spotted you doing the test...

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:26PM

Yea, test was at 10:15, would have been out on the road just after half ten Id say.

jayok · 24-01-2014 03:32PM

Ok, FWIW, just some small feedback (if it was you on the Ballymun Road). I tend to watch bikers, doing their test more of a curiosity rather than anything else:

You didn't do life savers when changing road position, that includes taking the left bend onto the bottom of the Ballymun Road. Also you didn't give a glance right when completing the bend.

The same happened when you turned off the Ballymun Road onto Glasnevin Avenue.

In honesty, you *looked* very rigid and not very observant on the bike.

I was only behind your instructors car (a Zafira or something like that), so I couldn't see you some of the time. And that what it looked like to me...

Just my 2c.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:37PM

Wasn't me, that never came up in the feedback and I lifesavered the beejaysus out of that test at all the spots we're supposed to, especially lane changes.
Ya didn't by chance catch what bike it was?

jayok · 24-01-2014 03:43PM

Fair enough, not sure if it was you or not, my feedback could be completely irrelevant to you. But someone today wasn't doing it right!

It was a driving instructors' bike. The rear reg plate had a surround of a green and white school name and number along with an "L"

In terms of the process, what I done to turn left (as a example)

1. Mirror, move to position within the lane (left side)
2. Indicator
3. Life saver just before completing the turn
4. Just before mid-turn take a cursory glance to the right to make sure it's still clear
5. Complete the turn
6. Indicator off
7. Mirror
8. Move back to the position in the middle of the lane

In a round-about you're lifesaving when you enter AND exit it.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:43PM

Also, after I turned on to the Ballymun road I had to pull in for ages and wait as the examiner didn't get through the lights that went amber as I went through

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:46PM

Yea, I can see what your saying , but I failed because I wasn't lifesavering twice before turning. At EVERY turn, that racks up a whole load of points.

I was on an instructors bike alright but no green or L on reg plate.

RosieJoe · 24-01-2014 03:47PM

The whole point of the lifesaver is to do it before you change your lane position, so the Examiner is correct in saying you do one at number 3, right before you maneuver.

Whenever you go to alter your position you need to check your blind spot right before you do to ensure there is nothing there

blu3r0ri0n · 24-01-2014 03:50PM

Who was your "instructor"?

kaimera · 24-01-2014 03:53PM

A lifesaver after the manoeuvre is finished?

I can see how you may have to but that's totally situation dependant rather than a hard and fast rule imo.

/me waits for instructors!

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:53PM

Have to disagree quite strongly im afraid.
Reason why is this is my second test and apart from the glaring mistake I made which failed me my last test, All my procedures were done in the exact same manner. Not one mark was docked for safety glances in my previous test.
This examiner was being examined herself and perhaps being OTT?

If we drove around checking our blind spots every single time we changed position, even for a pothole or whatever we'd spend more time looking behind us the infront.

Mirror for a drift, even says this in the RSA handbook.
Lifesaver for a tilt
Full observation for lane change, is what me and many others have learned.

Its also what I excessed in my previous test and got no faults for.

Its the inconsistency that gets me. one examiner says one thing another says something different

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 03:54PM

That tester is right. The point of a lifesaver is that it is done before the machine moves off-line. The idea of this is to try to prevent you from drifting into the side of a Range Rover, with predictable results. In practice, this usually means a lifesaver before moving from the normal, dead-ahead position to the turning positions, i.e. the left or right of the lane, and again before actually turning. A roundabout is effectively left turn followed by another left turn, so at least two lifesavers are used when negotiating it.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:55PM

kaimera wrote: »

A lifesaver after the manoeuvre is finished?

I can see how you may have to but that's totally situation dependant rather than a hard and fast rule imo.

/me waits for instructors!

Situation dependant would make sense, but she made it out to be a hard and fast rule.

can't see your emoticon thing before waits for instructors.

seamus · 24-01-2014 03:57PM

Just break it down here:

So the routine we all learn for turning left or right at a junction is
1)Observation
2)Signal
3)maneuver- (its a drift)
4)position
5)Speed (slowing down!)
6)Look (LIFESAVER)

What's the purpose of the lifesaver? It's to ensure there are no vehicles in your blindspot. Even if the maneuver is a "drift", you have started drifting, without checking your blindspot.
So in the above list, the primary purpose of the lifesaver is completely lost. If there's something in your blindspot, you're going to come a cropper.

The purpose of the second lifesaver at the end is to re-evaluate the road conditions fully after you've complete the turn; check if someone has decided to overtake you, pull out of a parking space, etc etc. No, it's not always necessary and I would be surprised if an instructor marked you down for it every time.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 03:58PM

@Jimgoose: Even if Im in the central position of a single lane and can see traffic behind quite clearly?

If this is the case why is it not in the RSA handbook 'this is your bike'?

just wanna make it clear to all reading/replying , Yes Im bitter I failed and No Im not having a go at anyone here, all feedback is much appreciated!

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 03:59PM

pegdrums wrote: »

@Jimgoose: Even if Im in the central position of a single lane and can see traffic behind quite clearly?

If this is the case why is it not in the RSA handbook 'this is your bike'?...

Yes. Before the motorcycle moves off-line. As for why it's not in the "This Is Your Bike" book, I have no idea. That book won't save your life. A good instructor just might.

jayok · 24-01-2014 04:02PM

Folks,

I think what the OP means, is that if he's in the middle of the lane in a drive ahead position and is getting ready to turn left, he will:

1. check the mirror
2. Drift to the left edge of the lane
3. Life-saver
4. Tilt and turn
5. Upright
6. Mirror

A life-saver for a drift WITHIN the lane shouldn't be necessary.

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 04:02PM

jayok wrote: »

Folks,

I think what the OP means, is that if he's in the middle of the lane in a drive ahead position and is getting ready to turn left, he will:

1. check the mirror
2. Drift to the left edge of the lane
3. Life-saver
4. Tilt and turn
5. Upright
6. Mirror

A life-saver for a drift WITHIN the lane shouldn't be necessary.

I agree. But it is.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:03PM

Ok so the lifesaver before the drift seems to be coming up quite a unanimous yes.

Then why have all the other people Ive seen from the same instructor not had an issue with this in the test?

Again, i was failed because I didn't lifesaver before my drift, I DID do a mirror check. My lifesavers were all done before I tipped the bike in to the corner.

jayok · 24-01-2014 04:04PM

jimgoose wrote: »

I agree. But it is.

So, movement WITHIN a lane requires a life-saver? News to me.

Actually, still doesn't make sense. From a road positioning perspective, we drift left to right depending on the sweeping bend. No life saver required.

We need an instructor.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:04PM

jayok wrote: »

Folks,

I think what the OP means, is that if he's in the middle of the lane in a drive ahead position and is getting ready to turn left, he will:

1. check the mirror
2. Drift to the left edge of the lane
3. Life-saver
4. Tilt and turn
5. Upright
6. Mirror

A life-saver for a drift WITHIN the lane shouldn't be necessary.

Thankyou , That is exactly my point.

seamus · 24-01-2014 04:06PM

jayok wrote: »

A life-saver for a drift WITHIN the lane shouldn't be necessary.

Situation depending. Theoretically any change of lane position (e.g. from onside to offside) should be preceded by a lifesaver, as there could be another bike (or even a car in a wide lane) in that spot.
Before a turn you don't usually "drift", you change lane position in a relatively short space of time, which could catch another person off-guard.

In theory you shouldn't "drift" in your lane at all

You should maintain the onside road position and then perform a lifesaver every time you deviate from that road position.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:06PM

jayok wrote: »

So, movement WITHIN a lane requires a life-saver? News to me.

This also means if a big meaty pothole lies ahead its ,
Lifesaver, then move?

A kid runs out in the road
Lifesaver, then move?

All within a single lane in the straight ahead position

jayok · 24-01-2014 04:07PM

pegdrums wrote: »

This also means if a big meaty pothole lies ahead its ,
Lifesaver, then move?

A kid runs out in the road
Lifesaver, then move?

To be fair, I think would be considered emergency manoeuvres.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:08PM

seamus wrote: »

Situation depending. Theoretically any change of lane position (e.g. from onside to offside) should be preceded by a lifesaver, as there could be another bike (or even a car in a wide lane) in that spot.
Before a turn you don't usually "drift", you change lane position in a relatively short space of time, which could catch another person off-guard.

In theory you shouldn't "drift" in your lane at all
You should maintain the onside road position and then perform a lifesaver every time you deviate from that road position.

By drift I just mean a smooth change of position from central to offside or nearside

seamus · 24-01-2014 04:08PM

pegdrums wrote: »

This also means if a big meaty pothole lies ahead its ,
Lifesaver, then move?

Yep. Usually you will have plenty of time to see these things, so plenty of time to check.

A kid runs out in the road
Lifesaver, then move?

If you have time. Personally my aim would be to reduce my speed as much as possible before changing road position.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:09PM

jayok wrote: »

To be fair, I think would be considered emergency manoeuvres.

true yea, bad examples.

But as someone above said earlier when changing position on a bend we dont have to lifesaver

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 04:09PM

jayok wrote: »

So, movement WITHIN a lane requires a life-saver? News to me.

Actually, still doesn't make sense. From a road positioning perspective, we drift left to right depending on the sweeping bend. No life saver required.

We need an instructor.

You shouldn't be changing your lane position in the middle of a bend. That's naughty.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:11PM

jimgoose wrote: »

You shouldn't be changing your lane position in the middle of a bend. That's naughty.

you know what i mean, if you are going round a left bend ( country driving for example) you should be in the offside position , a right bend you should be in the near side position. If the bends come in succession you kinda have to change position on the bend.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:12PM

blu3r0ri0n wrote: »

Who was your "instructor"?

Aaron Rider Training

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 04:13PM

pegdrums wrote: »

you know what i mean, if you are going round a left bend ( country driving for example) you should be in the offside position , a right bend you should be in the near side position. If the bends come in succession you kinda have to change position on the bend.

Indeed yes, I know that. You should have your positioning done before entering the bend. If we get any more into chicanes, flick-flacks and off-camber uphill bastards tightening, we'll be on about apexes, trail-braking, fronts tucking under, and all kinds of stuff that'll definitely get you failed.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:16PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Indeed yes, I know that. You should have your positioning done before entering the bend. If we get any more into chicanes, flick-flacks and off-camber uphill bastards tightening, we'll be on about apexes, trail-braking, fronts tucking under, and all kinds of stuff that'll definitely get you failed.

Ha! Maybe there on the advanced test!!

I guess what gets me like I said is the inconsistency.
Test no.1 this wasn't an issue. I fixed the areas I mucked up and they were fine this time. My last tester was on a bike.

This tester was in a car.

it shouldn't be relevant but I can't help but wonder

seamus · 24-01-2014 04:17PM

pegdrums wrote: »

you know what i mean, if you are going round a left bend ( country driving for example) you should be in the offside position , a right bend you should be in the near side position. If the bends come in succession you kinda have to change position on the bend.

Road theory would say that you should maintain your position through the bends and slow down instead of changing lane position

Actually an advanced driving book I read (granted it was for cars) suggested that you should hold right around left-hand bends, and hold left around right-hand bends. This gives you more visibility around the corners, and therefore more time to react to hazards. Taking the left edge of a left-hand turn reduces your ability to see around the corner.

I tried it on a left-hand bend one day in the car and nearly got wiped out by some idiot hugging the white line coming the other way. There's a difference between what works in theory and what works in practice

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:21PM

seamus wrote: »

Road theory would say that you should maintain your position through the bends and slow down instead of changing lane position

Actually an advanced driving book I read (granted it was for cars) suggested that you should hold right around left-hand bends, and hold left around right-hand bends. This gives you more visibility around the corners, and therefore more time to react to hazards. Taking the left edge of a left-hand turn reduces your ability to see around the corner.

I tried it on a left-hand bend one day in the car and nearly got wiped out by some idiot hugging the white line coming the other way. There's a difference between what works in theory and what works in practice

Yea thats what I was saying... Offside for left ( better visibility) and nearside for right bends. Dodgy in a car but on a bike it can give you advanced warning of whats coming.

And to obtain these on/offside positions well in a series of sweeping bends your position has to change at some point on a bend. Yea prefferab;y before the bend but sure thats another topic.

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:25PM

Final question.

In my next test should I lifesaver before EVERY SINGLE deviation from my central position?

Since Ive done two tests and have two conflicting reports from examiners about lifesavers and when to do them Im at a loss as to who to follow.

Thanks a million for all your input, seems to be some division out there as to when EXACTLY lifesavers should be done.
I guess the main thing is to be as observant as possible and stay safe and upright in day to day riding, while not scaring the crap out of anyone else while driving!

Cheers

pegdrums · 24-01-2014 04:35PM

One last thing about the inconsistency before my rant finally subsides!

I did my pre-test with a rider who took his test directly after me with the same examiner!
Our instructor said I did a better run on my pre-test yet the other guy passed, and we both excersised the same practices.

If we both failed and for the same reason Id say "fair enough, we've both made the same errors and fecked it up"

Rant over............Til next test!

Roadcraft · 24-01-2014 04:47PM

pegdrums wrote: »

Final question.

In my next test should I lifesaver before EVERY SINGLE deviation from my central position?

Since Ive done two tests and have two conflicting reports from examiners about lifesavers and when to do them Im at a loss as to who to follow.

Thanks a million for all your input, seems to be some division out there as to when EXACTLY lifesavers should be done.
I guess the main thing is to be as observant as possible and stay safe and upright in day to day riding, while not scaring the crap out of anyone else while driving!

Cheers

Yes your examiner is right.
Mirror, Signal, Lifesaver, Move

So before you move or turn you should do a lifesaver in that direction.

jimgoose · 24-01-2014 04:50PM

pegdrums wrote: »

Yea thats what I was saying... Offside for left ( better visibility) and nearside for right bends. Dodgy in a car but on a bike it can give you advanced warning of whats coming.

And to obtain these on/offside positions well in a series of sweeping bends your position has to change at some point on a bend. Yea prefferab;y before the bend but sure thats another topic.

That's more to do with lines, as in racing lines. Do not use that word within earshot of an RSA tester...

minidazzler · 24-01-2014 04:51PM

Roadcraft wrote: »

Yes your examiner is right.
Mirror, Signal, Lifesaver, Move

So before you move or turn you should do a lifesaver in that direction.

Someone on here tweeked that the other day to be Mirror, Indicate, Lifesaver, Fcuking Move...... MILF.... can't stop thinking about MILFs when riding now :pac:

(The Fcuking being, as explained by whoever wrote it, to convey a sense of urgency and not wasting the lifesaver by waiting 15 seconds to actually move.)

Roadcraft · 24-01-2014 05:09PM

pegdrums wrote: »

jayok wrote: »

So, movement WITHIN a lane requires a life-saver? News to me.

This also means if a big meaty pothole lies ahead its ,
Lifesaver, then move?

A kid runs out in the road
Lifesaver, then move?

All within a single lane in the straight ahead position

For the pothole, YES, Lifesaver before you change position.

NO, For the kid running out, Mirror then brakes.

blu3r0ri0n · 24-01-2014 05:51PM

pegdrums wrote: »

Aaron Rider Training

I don't think they are on boards, its a shame as they could have enlightened us all.

minidazzler wrote: »

Someone on here tweeked that the other day to be Mirror, Indicate, Lifesaver, Fcuking Move...... MILF.... can't stop thinking about MILFs when riding now :pac:

(The Fcuking being, as explained by whoever wrote it, to convey a sense of urgency and not wasting the lifesaver by waiting 15 seconds to actually move.)

That's how i play too!:D

Roadskill · 24-01-2014 06:58PM

O = Observation (This covers 2 things. Mirrors & shoulder check in that order)
S = Signal (Always indicate after the above as you make sure it's clear to move before signalling intent)
M = Manoeuvre (drift across lane or lane change)
P = Position
S = Speed (Reduce speed and sort gears)
L = Look (Lifesaver prior to turning the bars)

The shoulder check in observation above is required before signalling in case anyone is in your blind spot.
Observation covers all checks which is why its O and not an L as in look.
It's exactly the same as the lifesaver but done prior to signalling. Easier to call them different things to avoid confusion as a lifesaver is described as a blind spot check prior to turning the bars.
Don't really know why position is in there as imo your manoeuvre covers it.

All that being said there is some inconsistent testing going on which isn't right but can't be monitored.

Wonda-Boy · 24-01-2014 09:17PM

pegdrums wrote: »

Aaron Rider Training

For what its worth a friend of mine did the training with the exact same person and FAILED for the exact same reason!! So you do the maths, charged him up the wazooo too for what its worth.

Something not right......

pegdrums · 25-01-2014 12:50AM

Roadskill wrote: »

O = Observation (This covers 2 things. Mirrors & shoulder check in that order)
S = Signal (Always indicate after the above as you make sure it's clear to move before signalling intent)
M = Manoeuvre (drift across lane or lane change)
P = Position
S = Speed (Reduce speed and sort gears)
L = Look (Lifesaver prior to turning the bars)

The shoulder check in observation above is required before signalling in case anyone is in your blind spot.
Observation covers all checks which is why its O and not an L as in look.
It's exactly the same as the lifesaver but done prior to signalling. Easier to call them different things to avoid confusion as a lifesaver is described as a blind spot check prior to turning the bars.
Don't really know why position is in there as imo your manoeuvre covers it.

All that being said there is some inconsistent testing going on which isn't right but can't be monitored.

This to me seems to be the clearest explanation so far, distinguishing a shoulder check from a lifesaver.
It still does not explain why my instructor nor any training manual I have read mentions it.
And yes there is some very inconsistent testing going on.

pegdrums · 25-01-2014 12:55AM

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

For what its worth a friend of mine did the training with the exact same person and FAILED for the exact same reason!! So you do the maths, charged him up the wazooo too for what its worth.

Something not right......

Interesting, although the guy after me passed doing all the same stuff.
How much exactly was your friend charged for the IBT? I found it to be a good school of training and very comprehensive, every school has there fails Im sure. Even in this thread alone there is a certain amount of uncertainty over these lifesaver/safety glances and when exactly one should do them.

LookBehindYou · 25-01-2014 12:56AM

There is some inconsistency between some testers. It depends on whether they ride a bike themselves normally or not.
rule of thumb is : Move your head before you signal and also before you change position.
Reason = Your helmet restricts your side views, so in order to see something beside you, your mirror will not help, you must turn your helmet for your eyes to see.

pegdrums · 25-01-2014 01:10AM

LookBehindYou wrote: »

There is some inconsistency between some testers. It depends on whether they ride a bike themselves normally or not.

I had a feeling there might be an element of that. Its like me as a drum teacher testing a guitar student and marking him down for poor fretboard work or something.

I get your rule of thumb. When looking in the mirror I move my head to look at it.

My personal opinion of doing a lifesaver before changing position within a single lane (after I've signalled,before I take my new position) is its actually more dangerous as it takes your attention away from the traffic in front of you and whats happening at the junction. I 100% understand doing it before the actual turn.

Someone earlier said its to stop you smacking into a land rover when you move, but sure wheres the land rover going to be? Between me in my central position and traffic coming the other way? If I can't see that coming behind me in my mirror then they are poorly adjusted. In general, the roads on the Finglas test route are quite narrow and would not allow this. Yes some are wider and yes I can understand perhaps a shoulder/safety glance on the wider roads (not the ballymun road with two lanes, different kettle of kippers).

I tried some of the above suggestions on my way home tonight and found that all these shoulder/safety checks/ lifesavers to be to much. Every time I wanted to move position within my lane I lifesavered, on a bend before tilting the bike I lifesavered and so on.

Can anyone point out a good demo video of all this stuff on youtube or anything?
Might help clarify a few things

Hotblack Desiato · 25-01-2014 01:31AM

LookBehindYou wrote: »

There is some inconsistency between some testers. It depends on whether they ride a bike themselves normally or not.
rule of thumb is : Move your head before you signal and also before you change position.
Reason = Your helmet restricts your side views, so in order to see something beside you, your mirror will not help, you must turn your helmet for your eyes to see.

Your helmet doesn't restrict your side vision anything like as much as non-bikers think. Glasses wearers have a FAR more restricted field of vision.
Cars have pillars obstructing your vision, and side windows that are often very slow to demist in winter.
I actually feel much more claustrophobic / restricted in vision in the car than on the bike.

Your mirrors won't help spot something right beside you in a lane change, but that's nothing to do with your helmet, just where the mirrors are aimed and the field of view they have. Cars have exactly the same problem, and far too many drivers just use their mirrors (if we're lucky) and never think to look out their side window.

From some of the descriptions in this thread of what's required on test, it still sounds very much like the one I did in 1996. You were required to ride as if your bike had no indicators or mirrors, so hand signals for everything and shoulder checks for everything.
I thought the test had moved on since then, perhaps not?
Discretion is needed, the lifesaver (i.e. the last thing you do before a turn, but before you commit) is needed but shoulder checks on every minor lane position change?? Not always. If you are already fully aware of the situation beside/behind you then it's only distracting you from what's ahead, which is more likely to hurt you. The rider needs to use his or her judgement, is the only sensible answer.

It seems we're back to very slow, exaggerated, unrealistic riding (while being followed by a box-ticker in a cage) which shows the test hasn't really moved on from years ago at all. Why bother with all the fancy requirements for IBT if the thing which actually gives you your licence doesn't bear relation to real-world riding and isn't examined by a rider?

All tests should be done with an examiner on a bike, for starters, and it should be less about ticking boxes (in fairness, hard to do while riding a bike

) and more about what demonstrates real-world good judgement and control, rather than rigidity that no-one follows except on test, and arguably isn't even the safest way to ride even in the artificial environment of the test.

Rant over.

LookBehindYou · 25-01-2014 01:45AM

Good rant there Ninja.

Driving test lifesaver procedure

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