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Holocaust Memorial comments

2

Comments

  • #32
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    The reason I raised it is that Shatter makes comments every few months in relation to Israel or related topics, from in my view a biased opinion. My question is, as Minister of Justice, should he not be impartial?

    From the other side, you do not see any ministers shouting about Catholic policies as it is seen as biased (or not politically correct). Apologies if I am not explaining myself very well.

    By the way, I find right wing neo Nazi politics as abhorrent and I have witnessed it first hand many years ago. The Right wing will always gain momentum in depressed times as they play to the lowest common denominator.

    I suppose it could be argued the rise of far right groups isn't usually great for law and order, so it's within a Justice ministers remit. Don't really see the issue.

    If it was on something about Israel and the Middle East, it would usually be in a personal capacity. Ministers are entitled to have personal beliefs, often makes for the best political humour when they cross the line or deviate from the party spiel.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #33
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,495 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I wonder what is Shatter's opinion on the Blueshirts, wonder is it consistent


  • #34
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    i dont deny it and i said they werent my figures. wanna try again?


    You do, it's irrelevant and no. .


  • #35
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Nodin wrote: »
    You do, it's irrelevant and no. .

    what a comeback. you're a winner.


  • #36
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    i personally dont deny it happened but from what ive read about it, the numbers as we've been told just dont add up.

    in 39, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 jewish people in the world. after the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 jewish people.

    thats just not possible given the numbers we have always been told.

    but YMMV. they arent my numbers!

    It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish".

    My sister in law's family came to London from eastern Europe in 1938 and changed their name to Conner and put Catholic on their.immigration forms. Even though they made it to the UK they didn't feel safe.


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  • #37
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish".

    My sister in law's family came to London from eastern Europe in 1938 and changed their name to Conner and put Catholic on their.immigration forms. Even though they made it to the UK they didn't feel safe.

    Maybe they shudda put Protestant on their form then?





    /gets coat


  • #38
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

    Well I've just read that link. My answer is no. Here's a question - were he not Jewish and mentioned on holocaust Memorial Day that the rise of right wing groups were a cause of concern - would we have this thread?


  • #39
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It may have escaped your notice, but in 1939 European Jews weren't exactly jumping up and down shouting "look at me, I'm Jewish"
    More to the point, the figures are nonsense. There were not 18M Jews worldwide in 1945, simple as. Hells, most estimates have the world Jewish population today at barely 14M


  • #40
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    K-9 wrote: »
    I suppose it could be argued the rise of far right groups isn't usually great for law and order, so it's within a Justice ministers remit. Don't really see the issue.

    If it was on something about Israel and the Middle East, it would usually be in a personal capacity. Ministers are entitled to have personal beliefs, often makes for the best political humour when they cross the line or deviate from the party spiel.

    Yes, but when he makes a personal comment, he is still the MOJ so his comment is seen imo as political or representing Irelands position.
    My post is in relation to Minister Shatter using his position as a forum for his own beliefs.

    I would also prefer if people refrain from turning the discussion into a numbers game. I have no doubt that 6m people died at the hands of the Nazi's, its a proven fact and there are only one set of people who try to dispute it.


  • #41
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    There's a perfectly functional Conspiracy Theories forum if people feel the need to use it. For everyone else, stick to the topic.


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  • #42
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Well I've just read that link. My answer is no. Here's a question - were he not Jewish and mentioned on holocaust Memorial Day that the rise of right wing groups were a cause of concern - would we have this thread?

    Honest answer is no.


  • #43
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,932 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Horrible atrocities were carried out against the Jews. Nobody wants to see that again and Shatter is correct to say it.
    I can never understand though how the Israeli's can treat the Palestinians the way they do after the suffering the Jews endured.


  • #44
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    Yes, but when he makes a personal comment, he is still the MOJ so his comment is seen imo as political or representing Irelands position.
    My post is in relation to Minister Shatter using his position as a forum for his own beliefs.

    I would also prefer if people refrain from turning the discussion into a numbers game. I have no doubt that 6m people died at the hands of the Nazi's, its a proven fact and there are only one set of people who try to dispute it.

    What would you have the Irish MOJ say on holocaust Memorial Day? What was specifically "Jewish" in his condemnation of the far right?


  • #45
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,955 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.

    If you ever see some speculation of "what if Hitler did x, then y wouldnt have happened, preventing z" etc., the final consequence is almost always '"and therefore the holocaust wouldnt have happened", as though the other 60 million+ lives lost in the war werent the worst of it.

    I in no way doubt the extent or absolute inhumanity of the acts the 3rd Reich committed, and find Holocaust denial stupid at best, and dangerous at worst. Plus I've no problem with commemorating and remembering the victims. But I am not a fan of the way the Holocaust dead are elevated above the many many millions of others who died in that war.


  • #46
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
    Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

    Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
    In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.


  • #47
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    biko wrote: »
    He's right in that there is a rise in right-wing and nationalist parties in Europe.
    Whether it's a bad thing for jews is difficult to say yet.

    Shatner bundles a lot of different parties together. I wouldn't say Front National in France or UKIP in UK are anti-jewish.
    In fact I see more anti-Semitism on boards than I do from those parties.

    Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.


  • #48
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Raelyn Mammoth Raid wrote: »
    Did he say they were anti-jewish? I mean, looking at the link in the op there I can't find any reference to jews at all apart from the Independent quoting the number who were killed in the Holocaust.


    Jobbik are. The French lot were in the past, but are toning it down in the hope of getting Jewish votes with an anti-muslim line.


  • #49
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    Honest answer is no.
    But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?
    CrabRevolution wrote:
    One aspect of the area of Holocaust commemoration that sorta grates with me is the pretty widespread perception out there, especially in the US, that the Holocaust was the worst part of World War 2.
    It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West


  • #50
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.


  • #51
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,431 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    shatter defending our facilitation of kidnapping, torture, and invasion this week in the dail


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  • #52
    sawdoubters
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    the right wing has been coming up for years,i don't see anything wrong in his statement


  • #53
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Mr Shatter said: "it is imperative that governments and mainstream parties "repudiate the reprehensible rhetoric of those who contaminate our poltical discourse and attempt to inflame dangerous prejudice." (RTE)

    Leaving the context of the memorial aside for just a second, his comments seem to spring from the idea that modern European politics is founded on left-wing liberalism and that any interference from the centrist-right or far-right is to be fought at all cost; for me this reveals a lot about the democratic deficit at the heart of Europe; the guys who are in power are un-elected technocrats who have slowly built up a complex political/corporate facade around themselves in a manner which leads elected politicians to bow down before the demands of the technocrats even at the expense of their own constituents. This would include the use of propaganda to ensure that the right are besmirched with the legacy of the second world war.


  • #54
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

    I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

    He must be stopped lads.


  • #55
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,955 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Reekwind wrote: »
    But because he's a Jew he is not allowed to express an entirely secular, understandable and admirable warning about the rise of the extreme right in Europe? Because that's a specifically "Jewish belief" that's not shared by anyone else?

    It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West

    I'm not trying to raise a usual anti holocaust/semitic argument here, but how are Jews 'ordinary people' where Slavs werent....?


  • #56
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,932 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Charles Rocher wrote: »
    OMG Alan Shatter is Jewish?

    I was wondering where those Christian children's blood was disappearing to.

    He must be stopped lads.

    He was but he said he was on Dail business and drove on leaving the garda standing there.


  • #57
    jellyboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭jellyboy


    can't we all hug and just get along?
    and try to understand that whatever the viewpoint of others a lot of people were left fatherless ,motherless,aunts,sisters,brothers and multiples of combinations of family members died

    numbers mean nothing,pain of loss is everything







    I'm off to make mint tea,anyone want one?


  • #58
    Cool_CM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭Cool_CM


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    What are peoples opinions on Alan Shatters comments today. As Minister for Justice, does he overstep the mark in relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0126/500303-right-wing-party-support/

    In relation to commenting on his beliefs in line with his own religion? What does his religion have to do with it? There's no controversy here and I'm fairly sure that other people who aren't Jewish, myself included, would probably be of the same opinion as him in this instance.


  • #59
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Reekwind wrote: »
    It's understandable. The Nazis killed tens of millions of non-Jews (and Jews weren't even the largest victim group) but the antisemitic programme of genocide was, while not unique, certainly a prominent feature of the Nazi regime.

    It may sound harsh but the horror of the countless deaths in the East wasn't matched by novelty. Europeans had been doing the same to non-Europeans for decades, and the Nazis certainly saw their anti-Slav campaigns as colonial ventures. But putting ordinary people in gas chambers? That was a new level of horror

    The Holocaust shouldn't overshadow the other deaths, and I don't believe that it does, but it will always have a larger impact on popular memory in the West
    This. Very much this RW. The attitudes and actions against Jews were by no means a new thing in European thought. The "Final Solution" gives the game away in the title. The other solutions the Nazi's attempted and used had a loooong history. EG IN the UK and Ireland up to the mid 19th century Jews were by law supposed to wear a yellow badge to mark them out. Sound familiar? Indeed it was our own John Toland and Daniel O'Connell who helped repeal that travesty of a "law".* As a Mr Raul Hilberg(fantastic scholar, sadly no longer with us, but the man who historically framed the Holocaust(against some resistance at the time) and well worth reading) noted in his discussions on the period it was the Final part that changed the maps in European philosophy on the matter, the rest they'd copied.

    Oh before that period there was an all too awful finality visited upon Jewish folks in Europe, the record in Eastern Europe and Russia is both eye opening and very very disturbing. Deadly Pograms were a fcuking annual national sport and it was organised to a fair degree, but not to the degree Fascist Germany took it.




    *before some right on guilt tripper comes in, the Limerick pogram was an outlier in Irish history. The relations between Irish people and Irish Jewish people actually stood out as different compared to mainland Europe and indeed England. In the 19th century Daniel O'Connell could claim with some authority that; "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews". Jewish Irish people though always small in number came to the fore many times in our history. A Jewish bloke was voted in as major of Limerick in the 16th century. Very unusual in European history. Irish Jews were heavily involved in charitable works during the famine. The aforementioned Danny O'Connell added in Irish jews with Irish Catholics as both needing more rights and equality. An interesting period and well worth reading up on. OH and the Limerick pogram? Well Jewish folks who had got the fuq outa Dodge when it kicked off found themselves in Cork lining up for an exodus to America(a well worn trail for Irish people, Jews or not). The people of Cork opened their doors and hearts to them as fellow Irishmen and women fleeing bullshít and because of that many stayed and the number of Jewish folks in Cork increased.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #60
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    biko wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure Golden Dawn are anti-Jewish too. Very nazi-style party.
    They're the most worrying of any of the parties he mentioned. Some awful, awful stories about them last year.

    kasidiaris-5701-600x400.jpg

    This image says more about them than any amount of examples I could make.

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/09/19/fyss-s19.html
    A very messy series of events...


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  • #61
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    As our justice minister I think its imperative he addresses it.


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