Does it matter where your degree comes from?

MagicIRL · 08-05-2014 10:37AM #1

I read this from http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/the-summit-jobs-1453405-May2014/ this morning.

THE DUBLIN WEB Summit, or The Summit as it’s now known, is hiring 40 new staff ahead of its November event but it’s not giving equal credit to degrees from different third-level institutions.

The Summit says that, for people who have graduated since 2010, they will only consider applicants who achieved 1st class honours degrees from UCD, UCC, NUIG, DCU, UL or NUI Maynooth.

Graduates at Trinity College Dublin however will be considered if they achieved the lower 2.1 grade.

Furthermore, for graduates of Institutes of Technology who achieved a BA, BSc or similar, they are required to have gone on to also secure a Masters to be considered.

Founder and CEO of The Summit Paddy Cosgrave says that they have been required to implement the requirements because they are seeking “high-quality graduates” and receive too many applications:
For every position we advertise at a graduate level, we get hundreds and hundreds of applications. It’s been extremely difficult as our head of recruitment to try to reduce 400 CVs down to 10 to call for interview.
Cosgrave also sits on the board of the Higher Education Authority and founded the Undergraduate Awards.

The Summit’s website lists a number of past speakers including well the founder of Twitter Jack Dorsey who dropped out of university and Tumblr founder David Karp who never graduated from high school.

The Summit was founded in 2010 and has become one of the most in influential gatherings on the international tech landscape with tickets selling out months in advance. Tickets for November’s event will first become available later this month.

The organisers are to next week hold their their first major US conference, Collision, in Las Vegas.

The more than 40 positions available include jobs in data science, iOS engineering and sales.

What does AH think? Trinners for winners or is that, loike, your opinion, man?

Legs.Eleven · 08-05-2014 10:40AM

I think it must do. My degree from the University of Crappington in England is obviously worth a lot less than someone who busted their balls off for theirs in Trinity. Has it ever stopped me doing what I wanted to do? No. Have I ever aimed very high, however? Nope.

snaphook · 08-05-2014 10:41AM

I find it ironic that people with 1st's from Trinity are deemed the "best of the best", where the guest speakers at this event probably left third level to achieve what they have acheived.

rotun · 08-05-2014 10:41AM

MagicIRL wrote: »

I read this

What does AH think? Trinners for winners or is that, loike, your opinion, man?

Grand to me, what do you think yourself?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-05-2014 10:41AM

Always was the same just nobody openly admitted to it.

Celly Smunt · 08-05-2014 10:43AM

A company that bases your employment perspective on what college you went to probably isnt worth working for.
All colleges in ireland are much of a muchness.

MagicIRL · 08-05-2014 10:44AM

rotun wrote: »

Grand to me, what do you think yourself?

I don't know enough about the difference between the courses to really decide. On one hand, I can understand X being better than Y if X is taught a much wider range or more relevant range of material. However, if X is better than Y purely because X has a history as a university than it's nonsense.

I'm studying at NCI so I'm ****ed either way! :pac:

08-05-2014 10:46AM

If it's much more difficult to gain entry into the more high status universities, then it's likely that the graduates are of a higher calibre generally. I can see where they're coming from.

Someone with a degree from Oxbridge is almost certainly brighter than someone with a degree from the University Of Average Joe.

Riskymove · 08-05-2014 10:49AM

MagicIRL wrote: »

What does AH think? Trinners for winners or is that, loike, your opinion, man?

If the Industry concerned believes that certain Institions produce better graduates or have a harder marking regime or whatever...then fair enough

once it isn't just about the name or snobbery etc.

Tombo2001 · 08-05-2014 10:49AM

I've been working in Dublin financial services for 15 years.

I've very rarely been asked "where did you go to college".

I've very often been asked "where did you go to school".

There is no doubt in my mind that if you go to an 'elite' school that it matters more than going to college. By elite, obviously I mean fee paying, and participating in the Leinster Senior Cup if you are male.

Meathlass · 08-05-2014 10:49AM

The guy explained this this morning on Morning Ireland. Seemingly a lot of Trinity's degrees are 4 years while others are 3 (he was talking about very specific computing courses) so this is the reason for the difference. A graduate with 4 years experience in their eyes is a better employment bet than one with 3.

Amirani · 08-05-2014 10:52AM

Meathlass wrote: »

The guy explained this this morning on Morning Ireland. Seemingly a lot of Trinity's degrees are 4 years while others are 3 (he was talking about very specific computing courses) so this is the reason for the difference. A graduate with 4 years experience in their eyes is a better employment bet than one with 3.

Yep, this is something significant that a lot of people don't take into account.

TimeToShine · 08-05-2014 10:53AM

Of course it depends where your degree comes from but in this particular case the discrimination is laughable considering that TCD's Engineering/Computer Science department is nowhere near the best in the country.

bnt · 08-05-2014 10:55AM

Well, the key sentence in the article is this quote from the CEO:

For every position we advertise at a graduate level, we get hundreds and hundreds of applications. It’s been extremely difficult as our head of recruitment to try to reduce 400 CVs down to 10 to call for interview.

Translation: finding the right person is too much hard work for us, so we're "outsourcing" the bulk of the selection process to the universities, under the delusion that what people score on academic exams is a good indicator of how they will perform in a real world business environment. Never mind that there are probably people out there who have no degree at all but do have decades of relevant work experience that you could use to your benefit.

A qualification is only a "proxy" indicator of how good someone is in a particular field, and an imperfect proxy at that.

Amirani · 08-05-2014 10:57AM

TimeToShine wrote: »

Of course it depends where your degree comes from but in this particular case the discrimination is laughable considering that TCD's Engineering/Computer Science department is nowhere near the best in the country.

International rankings disagree: http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2014/computer-science-information-systems#sorting=rank+region=+country=171+faculty=+stars=false+search=

MagicIRL · 08-05-2014 10:58AM

Meathlass wrote: »

The guy explained this this morning on Morning Ireland. Seemingly a lot of Trinity's degrees are 4 years while others are 3 (he was talking about very specific computing courses) so this is the reason for the difference. A graduate with 4 years experience in their eyes is a better employment bet than one with 3.

I'm not buying that. The report says (which I admit, may be wrong, I didn't write it):

The Summit says that, for people who have graduated since 2010, they will only consider applicants who achieved 1st class honours degrees from UCD, UCC, NUIG, DCU, UL or NUI Maynooth.

and, if the reason for this is because each of those universities offer a four year course as opposed to a three then I'm wondering why the National College of Ireland isn't included when it too offers a 4 year Computing honours degree.

hfallada · 08-05-2014 11:00AM

American multinationals noticed that certain universities tend to hand out the 2.1s for no good reason. Meaning a someone with a 2.2 from Trinity is often better than a 2.1 from another university in Ireland. The standard of lecturers in Trinity and UCD is obviously going to better than Sligo IT.

batistuta9 · 08-05-2014 11:00AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Yep, this is something significant that a lot of people don't take into account.

Would they not know a 3y is a BSc and 4y is BSc(hons)?

Celly Smunt · 08-05-2014 11:01AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

International rankings disagree: http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2014/computer-science-information-systems#sorting=rank+region=+country=171+faculty=+stars=false+search=

That isnt taking into account any IT in ireland who have far superior technical programs to trinity.

DIT for example.A man is locked up in Bolton street for four years away from the opposite sex and alongside his compatriots.In order to get his degree he must fix himself from within before he can fix the world.

Celly Smunt · 08-05-2014 11:06AM

hfallada wrote: »

The standard of lecturers in Trinity and UCD is obviously going to better than Sligo IT.

Not particularly, the lecturers in the likes of Sligo IT would be people employed from the professional background with many years experience within the field rather than trinity which would employ a more academic lecturer with limited experience in the real world.

Meathlass · 08-05-2014 11:08AM

Of course the main story here is all the free publicity the Dublin Web Summit has gotten and the money its HR department have saved by not having to advertise their jobs. :rolleyes:

FouxDaFaFa · 08-05-2014 11:11AM

I volunteered with the Web Summit a few years ago and even then they were spouting the "most of our staff have 1:1s from Trinity" thing on their website. It was a little off-putting, especially for an organisation that likes to think of itself as innovative and encouraging of non-traditional talent.

I mean, some of the most succesful startups and guests that they were delighted to feature are people who did not complete traditional education routes.

Chips Lovell · 08-05-2014 11:14AM

Looks like he's managed to garner a fair amount of publicity for the Web Summit.

MagicIRL · 08-05-2014 11:19AM

Meathlass wrote: »

Of course the main story here is all the free publicity the Dublin Web Summit has gotten and the money its HR department have saved by not having to advertise their jobs. :rolleyes:

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Looks like he's managed to garner a fair amount of publicity for the Web Summit.

This is another thing I don't get. How come whenever someone comes out with a questionable statement people rush to the 'he's doing it for free publicity' defense. Every. single time.

Is it some form of narcissistic view that you're better than the rest of us for seeing through the smokescreen?

tritium · 08-05-2014 11:20AM

As someone who has hired and worked with graduates for a number of years across several industries i think its nonsense. Most courses have broadly similar content and work ethic and experience of real world problem solving are more portant that which institution you went to. I have two degrees, one a major university, one a lesser college from night study. The quality of the lecturers in both varied from excellent to rubbish.

TimeToShine · 08-05-2014 11:22AM

hfallada wrote: »

American multinationals noticed that certain universities tend to hand out the 2.1s for no good reason. Meaning a someone with a 2.2 from Trinity is often better than a 2.1 from another university in Ireland. The standard of lecturers in Trinity and UCD is obviously going to better than Sligo IT.

You mean the standard of academics is going to be better. These are the people who the rankings are based on. They are paid to research and publish papers, you would be surprised how many of them see lecturing as a distraction from their real work. Not that anyone can blame them really. Competence in academia does not directly translate to a good teacher/lecturer, in fact it is arguable that someone with years in industry who is teaching in an IT will prepare students far more adequately for work in the real world than a "do it by the book" lecturer.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 11:23AM

The 3 year vs 4 year thing makes sense. But trinity college engineers are definitely not better than others, at least they weren't last time I recruited. These things come and go in waves and because of the points system the difference in quality in Ireland are between types of degree not universities.

username123 · 08-05-2014 11:23AM

TimeToShine wrote: »

You mean the standard of academics is going to be better. These are the people who the rankings are based on. They are paid to research and publish papers, you would be surprised how many of them see lecturing as a distraction from their real work. Not that anyone can blame them really. Competence in academia does not directly translate to a good teacher/lecturer, in fact it is arguable that someone with years in industry who is teaching in an IT will prepare students far more adequately for work in the real world than a "do it by the book" lecturer.

But they will prepare them well for a life of academia where they can go on to write more papers and bring up the international standards for the university in question.

Amirani · 08-05-2014 11:26AM

usersame wrote: »

Shocker: The CEO of Web Summit went to Trinity

He's sounds, looks and acts like a bell-end

Well thought-out point there. Your educational institutional must be proud.

TimeToShine · 08-05-2014 11:27AM

username123 wrote: »

But they will prepare them well for a life of academia where they can go on to write more papers and bring up the international standards for the university in question.

True, but very, very few people go into academia. Of a class of a 100 I'd say at least 60 will leave with a bachelors, 30 would go on and do a masters and maybe 5 would do a PhD. In any case the lecturers job is to cater to the majority, people who go into academia are generally very capable and less in need of help than the rest. Also, and this is just my opinion, in Engineering and Comp Sci. in particular you'll find that the very best of the best generally try and get out of Ireland for their PhD and rightly so.

The One Who Knocks · 08-05-2014 11:30AM

snaphook wrote: »

I find it ironic that people with 1st's from Trinity are deemed the "best of the best", where the guest speakers at this event probably left third level to achieve what they have acheived.

They're hiring employees, not entrepreneurs.

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 11:32AM

TimeToShine wrote: »

True, but very, very few people go into academia. Of a class of a 100 I'd say at least 60 will leave with a bachelors, 30 would go on and do a masters and maybe 5 would do a PhD. In any case the lecturers job is to cater to the majority, people who go into academia are generally very capable and less in need of help than the rest. Also, and this is just my opinion, in Engineering and Comp Sci. in particular you'll find that the very best of the best generally try and get out of Ireland for their PhD and rightly so.

Very few people need a PhD in either engineering or software because it's not really much of a help going forward.

I wonder how they apply these criteria to other European universities. I am interviewing an East European today with vast experience and I hadn't glanced at his university until this thread. Now that I have I am none the wiser. I won't be asking for his result either, although he said it was a 1.1. Don't care. The experience matters far more.

I wonder what percentage of non Irish the web summit hire? Sounds like a form of racism and classism going on here.

username123 · 08-05-2014 11:39AM

TimeToShine wrote: »

True, but very, very few people go into academia. Of a class of a 100 I'd say at least 60 will leave with a bachelors, 30 would go on and do a masters and maybe 5 would do a PhD. In any case the lecturers job is to cater to the majority, people who go into academia are generally very capable and less in need of help than the rest. Also, and this is just my opinion, in Engineering and Comp Sci. in particular you'll find that the very best of the best generally try and get out of Ireland for their PhD and rightly so.

I meant that comment to be tongue in cheek. Universities only really caring about themselves, the students are such a nuisance really....

Do many people study for the fun of it and not for career progression I wonder? I do. I wonder how common it is. The university doesnt matter in such a case but I find I have still researched the places, checked their rankings, gotten a general feel online for how they are viewed.

errlloyd · 08-05-2014 11:42AM

I think it's a pretty dumb policy tbh, and what's strange about it is that it seems so different from the policy of so many tech companies around right now.

GarIT · 08-05-2014 11:46AM

What I find strange is trinity has possibly the worst CS department of any uni the east coast. It might be about the same as DCU but that's about it.

pauliebdub · 08-05-2014 11:50AM

It depends.

Id look at someones experience, what can that person do? Have they gotten involved in open source projects? what have they developed? how do they work within teams? Are they open to continued learning?

While the average Trinity graduates may be smarter than the average Sligo IT graduate by virtue of the fact that Trinity is much harder to get into, it varies from person to person within the course. Some Trinity graduates might be great at passing exams but that doesnt nescessarily translate into good workers or problem solvers whilst someone from Sligo IT could be exceptional but simply couldnt afford or didnt want to move to Dublin.

josip · 08-05-2014 11:56AM

When I graduated from Trinity Comp Sci, I think about 60% of those sitting finals got either Is or II.Is.
If it's still the same, then including II.Is in the criteria is not going to filter out Joe average.
Is it still a BA Mod Comp Sci that Trinity confers?

Amirani · 08-05-2014 11:57AM

GarIT wrote: »

What I find strange is trinity has possibly the worst CS department of any uni the east coast. It might be about the same as DCU but that's about it.

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

ballsymchugh · 08-05-2014 12:00PM

if your degree is from a CAO/CAS entry course, then there's not going to be a whole lot of difference in the course material is there?

however, if you go to a private fee paying third level college, then i'm always wary. would anyone take serious advice from someone, who say, went to the college of naturopathic medicine to become a nutritional therapist?

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/rosanna-graduates-in-style-and-is-now-on-a-mission-to-change-the-way-we-eat-29992213.html

DublinWriter · 08-05-2014 12:01PM

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Not particularly, the lecturers in the likes of Sligo IT would be people employed from the professional background with many years experience within the field rather than trinity which would employ a more academic lecturer with limited experience in the real world.

Not at all - when I was doing my IT under and postgrad degrees at TCD a lot of the lecturers were part time and had full time jobs in Revenue, Accenture, etc.

Only about 50% of our lecturers were fulltime TCD staffers.

dashcam5586 · 08-05-2014 12:06PM

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

GarIT · 08-05-2014 12:08PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

The course material. I have no problem,saying UCD has by far the best CS department in the country and Maynooth isn't as good as it. Trinity's course material is quite outdated and DCU hands out degrees for anything, everyone knows computer applications is the easiest course of any uni CS course to pass, that's the reason it is one of the most popular CS courses in the country but has relatively low points.

josip · 08-05-2014 12:09PM

dashcam5586 wrote: »

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

They may be more likely to check their coursework before submitting it.
Or proof read their posts...

Amirani · 08-05-2014 12:09PM

dashcam5586 wrote: »

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

Most people in TCD aren't rich. Why does getting a great Leaving Cert "not mean anything"? I'm fairly sure it means something, it may not mean a lot, but it does mean something.

Amirani · 08-05-2014 12:12PM

GarIT wrote: »

The course material. I have no problem,saying UCD has by far the best CS department in the country. Trinities course material is quite outdated and DCU hands out degrees for anything, everyone knows computer applications is the easiest course of any uni CS course to pass, that's the reason it is one of the most popular CS courses in the country but has relatively low points.

I'd be interested in discussing this further. I've an interest in the area, though I'm not directly involved, could you do a comparison between the course material in UCD versus TCD/DCU for example? Or even a reference to a comparison somewhere would be fine.

I'm not attacking your assertion, I'm just genuinely interested in the differences.

snaphook · 08-05-2014 12:13PM

First's in IT.

Fail in PR.

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 12:15PM

Meathlass wrote: »

A graduate with 4 years experience in their eyes is a better employment bet than one with 3.

batistuta9 wrote: »

Would they not know a 3y is a BSc and 4y is BSc(hons)?

Beat me to it, 3 years is ordinary level and does not confer speciality, the 4th year in most courses in Science/Engineering/Mathematics, gives most students skills which are close to MSc level.

josip wrote: »

When I graduated from Trinity Comp Sci, I think about 60% of those sitting finals got either Is or II.Is.

Diego Simeone wrote: »

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

My old flatmate finished top of his class in trinity CS with little effort (admittedly a very smart guy) but had to go and upskill before he was employable for many jobs he had an interest in. Another friend also finished top of his class two years later in the same course and got a job with MS based solely on projects that he worked on outside of college, his degree was like a min. requirement in the same way that I required Maths to get into college. It was necessary but had no affect on his employability other than eligibility.

gandalf · 08-05-2014 12:15PM

TBH the degree is only an indication that the person is adept at exams and university assignments. It really isn't an indication of their ability in real world situations.

Looking quickly at the jobs on offer with them the majority require soft skills which normally come with experience and not academic learning. I think Mr. Cosgrove is being very short sighted in limiting the scope of candidates with this particular policy although the more cynical part of me is thinking that this is a means to keep their name in the media which is he very good at doing.

I don't have a degree, I have technical qualifications. I have worked with a number of people who were very high academic achievers (on paper!) but who were absolutely useless at the jobs they were given because they had no experience of the "real world".

For the jobs that the Web Summit are hiring for Analytics, Data + Engineering I can understand and endorse the stance, they do need to have a level of competency in these areas. For the Sales, Marketing, HR, CS and other roles your qualification should be considered but your experience should be the item that decides whether you get an interview or not. Using what degree you got and where you got it from is a lazy form of HR profiling and is excluding candidates from consideration who could potentially help make the enterprise far more successful.

Davarus Walrus · 08-05-2014 12:20PM

I work for a company who has a requirement for a large number of engineers. Across many of the engineering disciplines. The quality of graduate being churned out of many of the institutes/2nd rate universities wouldn't be great these days, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to find people of the required standard to fill even entry-level engineering positions.

TCD, and to a lesser extent, UL, are still producing some excellent young graduates, who tend to progress quicker in their careers. They've a more balanced range of skills, and are far more likely to make junior or middle management within 10 years than those from other 3rd level institutes.

Sugar Free · 08-05-2014 12:20PM

A lot of anti-university and in particular anti-TCD comments here. Employers have been filtering candidates based off results and university for a long time.

It may not necessarily be the best way to do it as people have alluded to here but it's not going to change. Just take a look at the requirements for tonnes of graduate programs like Glanbia, Accenture, GSK etc.

pundy · 08-05-2014 12:21PM

Degree or not, yiz wont get a job.

Does it matter where your degree comes from?

Does it matter where you get your degree? 273 votes

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