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Female genital mutilation (FGM)

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Comments

  • #152
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    What's to discuss? There is NO justification for FGM. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • #153
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    bnt wrote: »
    What's to discuss? There is NO justification for FGM. No ifs, ands, or buts.

    Who said there was? :confused:


  • #154
    The One Who Knocks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭The One Who Knocks


    googles "what's f-"

    search prediction = "What's female genital mutilation"

    ..ah, I see.


  • #155
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    strobe wrote: »
    Jesus.. that's one of the maddest things I've ever read. Poor guy.

    We should probably have the top of our son's dick cut off.

    Damn, the operation went badly, he lost his entire penis.

    Well... why leave a job half done? Better castrate him.

    ...Just in case that damages him psychologically, better keep the truth from him and send him to a salubrious shrink so he can be conditioned for such "reassignment".

    *I know it's a totally extreme example but I got seriously angry just reading it!


  • #156
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    There's really nothing to debate here - Female Genital Mutilation is a barbaric, evil and cruel practice that should be stamped out.

    Male Genital Mutilation needs to be dealt with as well but the priority should be FGM where the effects are a lifetime of misery and pain for the women who are abused in this way.


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  • #157
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    There's really nothing to debate here - Female Genital Mutilation is a barbaric, evil and cruel practice that should be stamped out.

    Male Genital Mutilation needs to be dealt with as well but the priority should be FGM where the effects are a lifetime of misery and pain for the women who are abused in this way.

    Really, if you're fixing one you may as well fix the other.

    Having a law that says you're not allowed to mutilate your children's genitals for non-medical reasons kills two birds with one stone.

    People over-complicate the issue but that's it in a nutshell.


  • #158
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Male Genital Mutilation needs to be dealt with as well but the priority should be FGM where the effects are a lifetime of misery and pain for the women who are abused in this way.
    Certainly it is a barbaric practice, but with its criminalisation in the UK, is it really a priority there any more? If so, what you're suggesting is that practices that are already legislated for are more important than doing anything about those that are still freely practiced. Or that injustices common in another part of the World, thousands of kilometers away, are more important than those on our own doorstep.

    This doesn't mean that once legislated for, we should forget about FGM or the enforcement of laws against it, but it's difficult to argue that it should be top of the agenda either.


  • #159
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I think the medically unnecessary interference with infants' genitalia needs to be challenged as a single unified evil. There is no benefit in dividing it along gender lines.

    It is not ok to chop bits off babies, end of.


  • #160
    failinis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭failinis


    Just seen on BBC that;
    "Islamist group Isis orders women aged 11 to 46 in Mosul, Iraq, to undergo female genital mutilation, UN says: More to follow."
    Disgusting.
    JupiterKid wrote: »
    There's really nothing to debate here - Female Genital Mutilation is a barbaric, evil and cruel practice that should be stamped out.

    Male Genital Mutilation needs to be dealt with as well but the priority should be FGM where the effects are a lifetime of misery and pain for the women who are abused in this way.

    I do think that both need to be stopped, and of course it effects both gender but I feel it is to different degrees, for males it causes less sensation and in some cases the op can go wrong such as the poor guy in the US' case, but rarely does it cause death (I know a few examples but on the grand scale of things it is less than females.)

    The males can still pee with out danger of infection, while even urination is a problem for women, add on the on set of menstruation, sex, birth....this effects a lot in women than male circumcision.

    Of course both should be address, but I hope people see the fgm affects the females so much more seriously.


  • #161
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    failinis wrote: »
    Of course both should be address, but I hope people see the fgm affects the females so much more seriously.
    So you're saying that something wrong that takes place thousands of miles away, unabated, is a higher priority than something wrong that takes place where we live, unabated?


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  • #162
    Madilynn Teeny Trainer
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Madilynn Teeny Trainer


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    We should probably have the top of our son's dick cut off.

    Damn, the operation went badly, he lost his entire penis.

    Well... why leave a job half done? Better castrate him.

    ...Just in case that damages him psychologically, better keep the truth from him and send him to a salubrious shrink so he can be conditioned for such "reassignment".

    *I know it's a totally extreme example but I got seriously angry just reading it!
    I'm pretty sure it did happen... and it's disgusting
    Both should be stopped


  • #163
    failinis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭failinis


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So you're saying that something wrong that takes place thousands of miles away, unabated, is a higher priority than something wrong that takes place where we live, unabated?

    I don't think has anything to do with the distance from where it is. I do think dealing with MGM in the West is easier, as it is our priority to deal with things in our won area, but FGM takes place here as well.

    The UNICEF site says "Relevant population data from the 2006 Irish census was used to collate a preliminary estimate of 2,585 women calculated by country of origin and age group who are resident in Ireland and have undergone FGM." - so they are more likely people arriving here, the GM took place off our shores, but I do remember hearing about FGM taking place in the UK, so this sort of thing does happen where we live.


  • #164
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    failinis wrote: »
    The UNICEF site says "Relevant population data from the 2006 Irish census was used to collate a preliminary estimate of 2,585 women calculated by country of origin and age group who are resident in Ireland and have undergone FGM." - so they are more likely people arriving here, the GM took place off our shores
    That's a bit like saying that because people are coming to Ireland due to poverty in their home countries, we should deal with their poverty problems, before we do anything about poverty at home. Is that what you mean?
    but I do remember hearing about FGM taking place in the UK, so this sort of thing does happen where we live.
    And it's now been criminalized. Should we still prioritize it over an issue where nothing has been done? At what point then would it be acceptable to push MGM up the priority list?


  • #165
    AdolfHipster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 178 ✭✭AdolfHipster


    Down with FGM.


  • #166
    failinis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭failinis


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    That's a bit like saying that because people are coming to Ireland due to poverty in their home countries, we should deal with their poverty problems, before we do anything about poverty at home. Is that what you mean?

    And it's now been criminalized. Should we still prioritize it over an issue where nothing has been done? At what point then would it be acceptable to push MGM up the priority list?

    Is FGM a poverty problem? I would see it more as a health problem, and I don't think we should refuse to help migrants who arrive there or in the UK?
    Or do you mean about helping people back in their own home countries? That would be make more sense.

    MGM should be pushed up the priority list, but to be honest I doubt many governments will do anything.


  • #167
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,697 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    As said in a previous post, adults shouldn't be cutting bits off babies for no reason. Both should be illegal imo, we should be able to sort law in our own country but forcing other countries to fall into line is a lot more difficult.

    The argument that 'this is our way, who are you to judge our culture?' holds no weight with me, I'll place it in the same category as 'Dey eat da poo poo' for uneducated BS. Call me racist or whatever but some cultures/countries need to be kicked into the 21st century whether they like it or not.
    Before anyone says it, I know Ireland can be quite backwards too.


  • #168
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    failinis wrote: »
    Is FGM a poverty problem? I would see it more as a health problem, and I don't think we should refuse to help migrants who arrive there or in the UK?
    You didn't understand my point. I'm not questioning it's importance, I'm questioning it's priority over other issues closer to home.

    Effectively you're suggesting that it's more important for us to try and solve the problem of FGM in other countries than making any effort at dealing with MGM on our own doorstep. Don't you think that's a bit morally twisted?


  • #169
    Thrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    failinis wrote: »
    Just seen on BBC that;
    "Islamist group Isis orders women aged 11 to 46 in Mosul, Iraq, to undergo female genital mutilation, UN says: More to follow."
    Disgusting.


    Isis denies ordering FGM on all girls in Mosul.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul?CMP=twt_fd


  • #170
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You didn't understand my point. I'm not questioning it's importance, I'm questioning it's priority over other issues closer to home.

    Effectively you're suggesting that it's more important for us to try and solve the problem of FGM in other countries than making any effort at dealing with MGM on our own doorstep. Don't you think that's a bit morally twisted?

    Ok I'm going on a bit of a tangent from you and failinis conversation there but has the overall tone or purpose of this thread been about taking positive action though? It seems to be more about getting people's opinions on the practice of FGM, inspired by a documentary that the OP that was watching.

    If there was a thread about MGM in America and Europe and within the first page people started popping up with "yeah but we have to talk about FGM in Africa if we're talking about this otherwise it's sexist", would that be a valid point? I don't think it would, and I don't think many of the men here would be long in shooting it down.


  • #171
    Bismarcks Empire
    Site Banned Posts: 1 ✭Bismarcks Empire


    Jillian Bitter Steamboat wrote: »
    Ok I'm going on a bit of a tangent from you and failinis conversation there but has the overall tone or purpose of this thread been about taking positive action though? It seems to be more about getting people's opinions on the practice of FGM, inspired by a documentary that the OP that was watching.

    If there was a thread about MGM in America and Europe and within the first page people started popping up with "yeah but we have to talk about FGM in Africa if we're talking about this otherwise it's sexist", would that be a valid point? I don't think it would, and I don't think many of the men here would be long in shooting it down.

    MGM is relevant in a thread about FGM as it can be used as a means of comparison.


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  • #172
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Jillian Bitter Steamboat wrote: »
    If there was a thread about MGM in America and Europe and within the first page people started popping up with "yeah but we have to talk about FGM in Africa if we're talking about this otherwise it's sexist", would that be a valid point? I don't think it would, and I don't think many of the men here would be long in shooting it down.
    I'm simply questioned the claim that, given the recent legislation in the UK and the almost complete absence to of it here compared to MGM, it should be treated as a priority over MGM.

    Were the scenario reversed, as you suggest, and someone questioned a prioritization of MGM over FGM as a social issue, then that would be a valid question.

    Do you object to the questioning of this prioritization?


  • #173
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm simply questioned the claim that, given the recent legislation in the UK and the almost complete absence to of it here compared to MGM, it should be treated as a priority over MGM.

    Were the scenario reversed, as you suggest, and someone questioned a prioritization of MGM over FGM as a social issue, then that would be a valid question.

    Do you object to the questioning of this prioritization?

    All forms of genital mutilation are wrong, and should be stopped. I'm not directly involved in any efforts to stop either and I don't consider myself qualified to comment on any actual or potential prioritization of one over the other.

    But there should be a reasonable expectation of being able to have a discussion about FGM, which has biological (the reproductive systems of women are more complex, and the mutilated genitals are going to menstruate and be involved in giving birth later, meaning there's a larger chance of complications); cultural (doesn't tend to occur in western societies, and tends to occur in societies which aren't great for women in general, which at least suggests that it's a part of a coherent larger system in those cultures which controls and abuses women); and other situational (only 18% of FGM carried out by medical personnel, very often on people who can have very little expectation of reliable medical access either at the time or later on) factors that DO make it different to MGM. Not worse, not more worthy of attention, but different. These factors frame the debates, and conflating both types of mutilation just because both are are wrong doesn't seem to be very wise.

    Similarly, any discussion about MGM would have things specific to it that you should be able to discuss without FGM being brought up - like the fact that the term "female circumcision" has been discarded by the WHO in favour of female genital mutilation, but "circumcision" is still used rather than "male genital mutilation", or the fact that a doctor carrying out infant FGM at the request of parents here would face serious questions, but not for MGM. I would imagine that it would be mightily frustrating if people were trying to have a conversation about MGM and factors like that, and were getting comments like "genital mutilation shouldn't be a gendered discussion".


  • #174
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Jillian Bitter Steamboat wrote: »
    I would imagine that it would be mightily frustrating if people were trying to have a conversation about MGM and factors like that, and were getting comments like "genital mutilation shouldn't be a gendered discussion".
    But isn't trying to silence discussion on MGM already making it a gendered discussion?

    TBH, the topic of MGM is relevant to one of FGM, as much because it is both related and comparable. FGM is a far more extreme procedure than MGM, and were it commonly practised in the West, I would agree that it should be prioritized because of this. But it's not and when you hear people suggesting that it is more important to discuss FGM in countries thousands of miles away than the common and legal practice MGM at home that the discussion really does become gendered.


  • #175
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    here is a thread filled with men who are grateful they have been mutilated

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054899493

    find one with woman who wanted fgm and then tell me they are in the same world for discussion


  • #176
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Silly me.

    I opened a thread about FGM, and actually expected it to be about FGM.


  • #177
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    But isn't trying to silence discussion on MGM already making it a gendered discussion?

    But is is a gendered discussion, it's about genitals. Insistence on discussing both together doesn't get anyone much further than "they're both wrong", and obscures the issues which are specific to each.
    TBH, the topic of MGM is relevant to one of FGM, as much because it is both related and comparable. FGM is a far more extreme procedure than MGM, and were it commonly practised in the West, I would agree that it should be prioritized because of this. But it's not and when you hear people suggesting that it is more important to discuss FGM in countries thousands of miles away than the common and legal practice MGM at home that the discussion really does become gendered.

    I'd absolutely agree with you that it's more realistic, more pro-active, and less ideological to concentrate on eradicating all forms of GM domestically, which, in practice, means a focus on MGM. I also do understand why the practice of FGM is used to illustrate how barbaric MGM is - the jury's in on the former after all, but the widespread cultural acceptance of MGM in the west means that people often need FGM as a point of reference to begin to see the reality of it. But this is not the first thread I've seen online (I think even on this site) where discussion of FGM on its own terms starts being framed as inherently sexist and narrow-minded.


  • #178
    Maphisto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Maphisto


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    But isn't trying to silence discussion on MGM already making it a gendered discussion?
    .

    Titling this thread Female genital mutilation is pretty succinct. It's not we should stop this now and while we're at it let's stop docking tails of lamnbs as well.


    TBH, the topic of MGM is relevant to one of FGM, as much because it is both related and comparable. FGM is a far more extreme procedure than MGM, and were it commonly practised in the West, I would agree that it should be prioritized because of this. But it's not and when you hear people suggesting that it is more important to discuss FGM in countries thousands of miles away than the common and legal practice MGM at home that the discussion really does become gendered

    "Comparable", sorry but you go too far. FGM is mysoginistic barbarism. MGM may have some slight risks may even be slightly unpleasant but comparable no.

    There's a post 3 or 4 up of someone extolling the virtues of MGM. People's views on MGM are far more divided. If you try and lump in the two together you risk putting the work on FGM back. By how far I don't now but 1 day is too long.


  • #179
    Madilynn Teeny Trainer
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Madilynn Teeny Trainer


    Candie wrote: »
    Silly me.

    I opened a thread about FGM, and actually expected it to be about FGM.

    BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN
    YOU'RE SUCH A SEXIST, CANDIE


  • #180
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bluewolf wrote: »
    BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN
    YOU'RE SUCH A SEXIST, CANDIE

    "FGM is a terrible thing. Please allow me to hijack the discussion of this tragedy to highlight the suffering of MEN. Enough with the women, much more importantly, WHATABOUTTHEMEN???"


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  • #181
    Frozenassets
    Site Banned Posts: 9 ✭Frozenassets


    Maphisto wrote: »
    Titling this thread Female genital mutilation is pretty succinct. It's not we should stop this now and while we're at it let's stop docking tails of lamnbs as well.





    "Comparable", sorry but you go too far. FGM is mysoginistic barbarism. MGM may have some slight risks may even be slightly unpleasant but comparable no.

    There's a post 3 or 4 up of someone extolling the virtues of MGM. People's views on MGM are far more divided. If you try and lump in the two together you risk putting the work on FGM back. By how far I don't now but 1 day is too long.

    If docking the tales of lambs is relevant to the discussion of FGM then I so no reason why it shouldn't be mentioned.

    In the Malaysia Airlines thread NATO has been discussed numerous times, this is what happens in threads. Topics come up that are relevant to the main topic.


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