The cost of childcare vs doing it yourself?

The One Doctor · 21-10-2014 04:47PM #1

Our first child is due in late December and I've been doing a few budget calculations regarding creche costs etc. It'll cost us €565 for a month's worth of creche, 3 days a week once my girlfriend goes back to work. A fairly typical figure.

To my surprise I discovered that once everything is accounted for, the difference between both parents working to support a child in creche and one parent working and the other staying at home is barely €185 per month. In other words, there will be €185 left at the end of the month for savings if both parents work.

This is a bit of a shock. The budget I drew up is very generous and I'm not trying to scrimp on anything, even including €400 per month for unexpected costs. I really expected there to be a significant difference. Frankly, I don't see the point in both of us working until the kid's ready for primary school.

Has anyone else come to this conclusion based on the high cost of childcare in Ireland? I do understand that there are benefits to putting the child in creche, mainly that they get a lot more socialisation.

sillysocks · 21-10-2014 04:51PM

Yes I was in a very well paid job which made it well worth my while working, that company closed and now I'm looking at under half the wages I was on, and when childcare is costing me 900 a month on the lower wages I'm literally working for nothing. I ended up leaving my last job because of it - had gotten a 4 week contract which could have been extended but I couldn't afford to take it. Sad case of affairs but must be true for a lot of people.

I'm hoping if I keep looking that something will come up with a few extra thousand to make it worth my while working.

lazygal · 21-10-2014 04:59PM

It depends on your collective income. I'm better off working. But I also.think the earlier years are the most expensive. Even private school fees are cheaper than creches in our area. I'm also working for the long term when they start school and then onto college or whatever. It can be very difficult to get back into the workplace after a stint at home with children. Not to mention I think I'd find it boring after a while being home full time.

The One Doctor · 21-10-2014 05:05PM

lazygal wrote: »

It depends on your collective income. I'm better off working. But I also.think the earlier years are the most expensive. Even private school fees are cheaper than creches in our area. I'm also working for the long term when they start school and then onto college or whatever. It can be very difficult to get back into the workplace after a stint at home with children. Not to mention I think I'd find it boring after a while being home full time.

We both make the same money, so it's a tossup over who will stay at home.

indigo twist · 21-10-2014 05:29PM

The One Doctor wrote: »

We both make the same money, so it's a tossup over who will stay at home.

If you do decide to, it may be worthwhile to get married as the working partner will be able to use the other parent's tax credits. Just something to consider!

livinsane · 21-10-2014 06:07PM

It is very little leftover but I definitely wouldn't make the decision to leave work until you have tried it out. It's not a decision that can be made in theory. I am working a three day with a young child so in exactly the same position. I did consider at one point whether it was worth the stress of traffic/balancing work and home/drop off and collections to child minder with such little money left over but after three months of being back to work I can confidently say that it is! It took a while to adjust but I am being to see the benefits now.

Outside of the money factor, work can be a big part of your social life when you have a young child. Also at home, your time really isn't your own with a young child. That's not to say that it isn't enjoyable but work provides you with a breather and some space.

It also keeps you in the work force, gives you independence and confidence (I found my confidence in dealing with people was greatly reduced after being at home for ten months).

If my only option was to work 5 days a week or be at home, I would quit my job in a heartbeat but working 3 days is a good balance. There is definitely more than money to be considered.

Sweet Rose · 21-10-2014 08:02PM

I basically drew up a budget and only had 3 things on my list- rent, utility bills and crèche and my salary was gone already. I was really lucky to be in a position to take a career break and I'll go back to my job whenever it suits me. I love being at home with my child, she goes to crèche one day a week to get used to other children and get used to be being away from me. I have the freedom to bring her to music classes, the library, swimming classes, the park, visiting friends etc whenever we feel like it. I love being in control of her care. The way I see it is that I will never be able to buy back these precious years with her. Once she's in school, she's going to be in a very set routine with very little leeway to do what we feel like.

If you're in a position to be able to stay at home, then I'd say go for it. They are in their most formative years when they're so young and it's amazing to impact so much as a parent on them so early on.

How Strange · 21-10-2014 08:10PM

You say you've allowed €400 for unexpected expenses which is a huge sum of money. In reality you've got €585 left over each month so based purely on finances you'd be better off continuing to work. I also think working 3 days is a great balance of family and work.

I personally wouldn't give up working but I'd love to work part time. Definitely wait for a few months before you make any decisions. Staying at home fulltime with a child is the toughest job you'll ever do so wait until you know how intense it can be before making any decisions about one of you giving up work.

LegacyUser · 21-10-2014 10:25PM

I am a Primary School teacher who worked in a crèche during college. I am now a mother and I can honestly say no money in the world would pay me to put my child in a crèche.

Moonbeam · 21-10-2014 10:26PM

It is a hard one,I had a well enough paying job and for a 3 day week créche was 800 euro pm with a 10% discount on the 2nd child so 1520 for both,then adding on everything else,it was crazy so I left and became a childminder the next day. I had more disposable income despite earning about 1/3 of what I did before.
These days I have 4 so no work for me until they are all in school!
I think part time work is the best situation for a lot of people.

There are also the other benefits of work like pension,VHI etc.

jester77 · 22-10-2014 08:47AM

You also got to look long term. It may be only 185 now, but in 4-5 years when the child starts school it may not be so easy to return to the work place. There will be lost skills, knowledge, promotions and pay rises in that time as well. Plus you are soley dependant on 1 salary, if that person loses their job or is sick for a prolonged time, it could leave things very tight.

ariana` · 22-10-2014 09:12AM

There's more than money to consider as well. There's sanity. I was at home for 1.5yr with baby no. 1 and while i loved that time with him it wasn't for me to be at home fulltime, i lost a big piece of myself and as a couple we found it an awful strain on our relationship. We feel more equal now we both work and we share parenting and chores fairly equally, we're both happier even though before having kids we always said we'd both love for me to be a SAHM. We both take Parental Leave so we have a pretty good work/family/life balance.

pwurple · 22-10-2014 09:14AM

It depends on the job, but sometimes there is another cost to factor in, the loss in continuity / experience becoming dated. I know in my own job, that can happen very easily. 6 months out, and I'm already behind the curve.

Sweet Rose · 22-10-2014 09:20AM

jester77 wrote: »

You also got to look long term. It may be only 185 now, but in 4-5 years when the child starts school it may not be so easy to return to the work place. There will be lost skills, knowledge, promotions and pay rises in that time as well. Plus you are soley dependant on 1 salary, if that person loses their job or is sick for a prolonged time, it could leave things very tight.

Realistically you would only need to take 3 years off to get your child up to the free childcare year. There isn't any reason why you can't do courses and keep up with professional development in your area of work when you're at home with a child. There are also provisions in place if the sole earner lost their source of income.

I'm a huge advocator of stay at home parents but like I said, it suits me and my job. I'm trying to live in the here and now and I'm enjoying each and every day with my child. Both my grandparents and my mother didn't get to retirement age so I'm not even going to worry about getting that far!

lazygal · 22-10-2014 09:29AM

pwurple wrote: »

It depends on the job, but sometimes there is another cost to factor in, the loss in continuity / experience becoming dated. I know in my own job, that can happen very easily. 6 months out, and I'm already behind the curve.

Huge +1 to this. I'm back properly after almost two and a half years at home on maternity leave with a small gap in between and only after a few months do I feel like I'm almost at full capability. If I was out for a career break of a few years I'd really feel it. I don't think its as easy to step back into the jobs market with gaps because of staying at home as some might think. There's many sectors where five years out of it means you'll struggle to even get an interview.

The One Doctor · 22-10-2014 09:30AM

jester77 wrote: »

You also got to look long term. It may be only 185 now, but in 4-5 years when the child starts school it may not be so easy to return to the work place. There will be lost skills, knowledge, promotions and pay rises in that time as well. Plus you are soley dependant on 1 salary, if that person loses their job or is sick for a prolonged time, it could leave things very tight.

Promotions and pay rises don't happen in our jobs, we'd need each to move job to get that! Neither of us have careers in the traditional sense of the word, nor professions, just jobs. We're not fans of careers ladders, we just work for money to be able to live in comfort.

You say you've allowed €400 for unexpected expenses which is a huge sum of money. In reality you've got €585 left over each month so based purely on finances you'd be better off continuing to work.

Yes, we'd have €585 left if both of us worked, and €400 left if one of us stayed at home, a difference of €185.

dbrunson · 22-10-2014 09:40AM

The One Doctor wrote: »

Our first child is due in late December and I've been doing a few budget calculations regarding creche costs etc. It'll cost us €565 for a month's worth of creche, 3 days a week once my girlfriend goes back to work. A fairly typical figure.

To my surprise I discovered that once everything is accounted for, the difference between both parents working to support a child in creche and one parent working and the other staying at home is barely €185 per month. In other words, there will be €185 left at the end of the month for savings if both parents work.

This is a bit of a shock. The budget I drew up is very generous and I'm not trying to scrimp on anything, even including €400 per month for unexpected costs. I really expected there to be a significant difference. Frankly, I don't see the point in both of us working until the kid's ready for primary school.

Has anyone else come to this conclusion based on the high cost of childcare in Ireland? I do understand that there are benefits to putting the child in creche, mainly that they get a lot more socialisation.

Hi , keeping them at home if your up for it is a in our experience a way better option.

We came to to the same conclusions as you re cost and stayed at home with them until they were both in primary, the both did a yrs Montessori before primary during which one parent was always at home as well as the cc fees were more or less the same. Now that they are in primary finishing at 3.10 with flexitime one of us can always collect.

The advantages:

You bring up your kids (no one in a crèche care as much as you do).

Re socialisation, smallkids play mostly by them selves the only people they care about or pretty much want to see/play with are family.

Its time you will never get back , we loved doing it.

If your kids are in a crèche you only see them at the worst times, ie if you have to wake them to bring them to crèche, they are cranky, or evenings when your home , they are tired cranky etc.

They will get everything going in a crèche, bugs colds etc, all that building up immunity guff is exactly that guff.

Trust me its win win win if you can do it. Youll never regret it.

cyning · 22-10-2014 10:06AM

It made no financial sense for me to go back to work. It would have cost us money: and where we live any job is hard to come by so changing wasn't an option. I want to stay at home too.

I wouldn't worry about the socialisation aspect: we go to two baby&toddler groups a week and a toddler dance classes, meet up with other sahm: plenty of options out there!

There are disadvantages. The person who stays at home rarely gets a break: if I have a stomach bug I have no one to come help as all my friends have kids! I tend to have at least one not two of them when I get dressed, go to the loo, shower... But honestly I really wouldn't change it. But it isn't for everyone.

pwurple · 22-10-2014 10:55AM

You can't put it all down to cost. I don't think I could be a SAHM, even if it made perfect financial sense to do so. My strengths lie elsewhere, I'm not very patient, and I get very frustrated unless I'm mentally or physically active. I find it hard to slow down or chill out.

Even maternity leave I found quite depressing, until I gave myself a tasklist as long as my arm. Building raised beds in the garden, tiling a floor, etc. My 3 year old is a great little grouter now! My husband is the patient one in our relationship. But even he said he couldn't wait for me to go back to work, as the house was turning into a constant building site, and he was getting tired just looking at me whizzing around.

I do miss them of course, but we are all a much happier family when I'm working, rather than being the frustrated angry person, or whirlwind busy lady at home.

It really depends on your own family dynamic, cost is only one factor. I think people are well able to figure out what's best for their own situation.

bp · 22-10-2014 11:47AM

Two things to consider which I am not sure have been mentioned:

1. The cost of food/ heat/ activities being home all day (pro for creche)
2. Kids get sick, a lot so you may need to factor in days off unpaid to mind them (pro for home)

ThisRegard · 22-10-2014 12:18PM

The One Doctor wrote: »

Frankly, I don't see the point in both of us working until the kid's ready for primary school.

The benefit of both parents sanity, and I find the kid benefits from the crèche.

Moonbeam · 22-10-2014 02:23PM

Sweet Rose wrote: »

Realistically you would only need to take 3 years off to get your child up to the free childcare year. There isn't any reason why you can't do courses and keep up with professional development in your area of work when you're at home with a child. There are also provisions in place if the sole earner lost their source of income.

I'm a huge advocator of stay at home parents but like I said, it suits me and my job. I'm trying to live in the here and now and I'm enjoying each and every day with my child. Both my grandparents and my mother didn't get to retirement age so I'm not even going to worry about getting that far!

There is no free childcare year but the ECCE scheme which is 3 hours a day.

Moonbeam · 22-10-2014 02:37PM

The sanity of work and job satisfaction and getting your wages every month are what I miss,also in some cases what you do is a lot of your social life and identity.
Trying to make friends and have company can be hard,I am sure I have gone for weeks with out actually engaging with another adult in person but I love kids and for me it is a bonus spending time with my own.
There is also no escape from it,you can't run for milk if a child is asleep,you can't shower if there is a toddler running around,you can't go to the loo with out being followed.
At the end of the day it is 5 years until they start school and in the grand scheme of things that is not a long time in the grand scheme of things.
Personally I could not stay at home with 1 and with 2 it would be minimal so a 3 day week was perfect but with anymore it is easier to be at home.
My eldest is only 5 so I am sure my opinions might change but once my last starts school I am going to be back to work in the blink of an eye,I work in an industry which it will be hard to go back to but I am retraining to work shorter hours ,nearer to home for a lot less money:)
I lvoe and adore kids though so I understand how it is alot saner for some people no matter how many kids they have to go to work!

Sweet Rose · 22-10-2014 02:53PM

I think the key to staying at home is establishing a good routine and getting out and about as much as you can. It took me quite a good few months to establish this routine but I enjoy my days more now because I have different things on each week to look forward to. I don't have a huge amount of money but I make the best out of what I have. I couldn't cope with the stress of work on top of looking after my daughter but I do work in quite a stressful workplace so that doesn't help. Each to their own, you'll find what works for you eventually. It make take a while but it'll all work out for you.

Sweet Rose · 22-10-2014 02:54PM

Moonbeam wrote: »

There is no free childcare year but the ECCE scheme which is 3 hours a day.

Sorry I keep thinking of my own circumstances. My workplace has provisions to keep your child on for the full day at a reduced rate.

SameDiff · 23-10-2014 02:10AM

The One Doctor wrote: »

I do understand that there are benefits to putting the child in creche, mainly that they get a lot more socialisation.

Infants don't need to socialise, they need their mummy and daddy. Don't believe the hype.

23-10-2014 08:41AM

Socialisation is not something kids need to do until about the age of 3. Before that they play independently. Watch a room full of 18 month olds, they don't play together.
You socialise a young child by bringing them with you to the shop, library, meeting friends, family.

OP the benefits of working stretch beyond financial. I was a sahm for 2 years and like a previous poster was shocked at how unsure of myself I was when I returned to work. Confidence in your abilities can take a huge hit.
If a parent is at home all day it's not just baking and reading books. Small children tend not to comply with your ideas for the day!
Winters can be long and isolating, it's dark at 4pm, you're stuck indoors with the heating bill climbing. I found 99% of my friends with kids worked so there were limited opportunities to meet up.

At home all day your world shrinks. Within a fortnight of being back at work, I heard of two new job opportunities I'd not have known about if I'd been at home. I was networking without even realising it.

If this is your first child, I'd say take the 4 months unpaid leave at the end of maternity. Then one of you will experience the guts of a year out of the workplace.
It's impossible to know how you'll feel about it until you're doing it.

ThisRegard · 23-10-2014 08:44AM

SameDiff wrote: »

Infants don't need to socialise, they need their mummy and daddy. Don't believe the hype.

There's no hype. I think they do get something from it.

23-10-2014 08:47AM

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no hype. They do get something from it.

What do infants get from socialising? I'm not having a go at you, but countless peer reviewed studies will tell you that an infant does not need to be placed in a childcare facility to be socialised.
From the age of about 2.5 they start showing an interest in playing with others. Before that, no.

jester77 · 23-10-2014 09:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What do infants get from socialising? I'm not having a go at you, but countless peer reviewed studies will tell you that an infant does not need to be placed in a childcare facility to be socialised.
From the age of about 2.5 they start showing an interest in playing with others. Before that, no.

Have you watched an infant?

My little lad is just gone 11 months and being around other infants definitely helps his progress. When there are younger babies around he will go over and gently touch them. When there are infants around his own age he will interact with them, play with the same toy or grab food from each other. When there are infants who are older and are too fast on their feet for him, he will stand there and observe them and watch what they do, and you will then see him trying to do some of the stuff that they do, climbing onto things is one I wish he hadn't picked up

cyning · 23-10-2014 09:24AM

I'm a sahm... And really think it's best for me and my children! But children do need socialisation with other children. They mightn't play together, but they learn to play beside each other, to share (well we teach them to try!), to interact with other children their own age. So I make every effort to make sure my children socialise (and me too). But you don't need a crèche to do it. I've never been happier since deciding not to go back to work. But I'm the first to say there are major disadvantages too. It's not for everyone, and no study is going to change that. You need to do what's best for everyone.

Sweet Rose · 23-10-2014 09:28AM

I don't think you can use the argument that staying at home is more expensive in terms of heating, food etc. You still need to heat your home when you come home from work. I can prepare meals on a budget at home for next to nothing and if I was working I'd have to pay for diesel to get to and from work everyday and then I'd have to pay for work clothes too. Other things I've found expensive while working was paying in for retirement presents, birthday cakes etc. I definitely find it's cheaper to stay at home but then I've become very savvy and I have the time to look for he best deals.

I know it's controversial but at times I do wonder why some people bother to have children. I have a friend who leaves her child in the crèche at 7.30 every morning and doesn't collect her until 6.30p.m. She says herself she is just bringing her child home, bathing her, reading her a story and kissing her goodnight. At weekends, she likes to socialise and leaves her child with a childminder most of Saturday evening and Sunday morning. She would rarely bring her child on a day trip or anything like that. Where is the parenting in that.

Children, especially at a young age, need a comfort figure and a constant presence in their lives. To me this should be their parent. Children grow up too quick and it's nice to spend the time with them when they are so little.

lazygal · 23-10-2014 09:37AM

jester77 wrote: »

Have you watched an infant?

My little lad is just gone 11 months and being around other infants definitely helps his progress. When there are younger babies around he will go over and gently touch them. When there are infants around his own age he will interact with them, play with the same toy or grab food from each other. When there are infants who are older and are too fast on their feet for him, he will stand there and observe them and watch what they do, and you will then see him trying to do some of the stuff that they do, climbing onto things is one I wish he hadn't picked up

I have noticed a huge difference with my younger child compared to the older one. There's 15 months between them but he picks up thing so quickly because he's had the older sibling to play with. He's also saying a few words earlier, knows how things 'work' (lego etc) from watching big sister and I can see him doing things like potty training quicker too. I was skeptical about children needing socialization before age 3 myself, but having seen the effect on my younger child I know it has some benefits.

pwurple · 23-10-2014 10:24AM

Era, unless you never leave the house with children, they are going to get socialisation from interacting with neighbours, people on the bus, in shops... wherever.

We all know people at both extremes of miserable situations.. the mum who hates being at home, and plonks the kids in front of peppa pig for the day while she drinks vodka in the other room. Or the working mum who has a massive commute and never sees the kids and hates every minute of that. And on the other side there are very happy SAHM's who balance and enjoy it all, and the same for working parents.

The happiest are where there are 2 content parents, happy with their workload and how much they see the kids. Whether it's at home, or working is immaterial. Miserable resentful parents make for unhappy children.

SameDiff · 23-10-2014 10:47AM

lazygal wrote: »

I have noticed a huge difference with my younger child compared to the older one. There's 15 months between them but he picks up thing so quickly because he's had the older sibling to play with. He's also saying a few words earlier, knows how things 'work' (lego etc) from watching big sister and I can see him doing things like potty training quicker too. I was skeptical about children needing socialization before age 3 myself, but having seen the effect on my younger child I know it has some benefits.

But it's not a race. Every child learns to walk and talk in the end. What matters is the presence of one or both parents in their lives from a very early age.

That is the foundation the rest of their lives is based on. Socialising and learning is not as important up until they reach school age. That is why the world over, school age is around 4 to 6. It is not a coincidence.

SameDiff · 23-10-2014 10:50AM

pwurple wrote: »

Era, unless you never leave the house with children, they are going to get socialisation from interacting with neighbours, people on the bus, in shops... wherever.

We all know people at both extremes of miserable situations.. the mum who hates being at home, and plonks the kids in front of peppa pig for the day while she drinks vodka in the other room. Or the working mum who has a massive commute and never sees the kids and hates every minute of that. And on the other side there are very happy SAHM's who balance and enjoy it all, and the same for working parents.

The happiest are where there are 2 content parents, happy with their workload and how much they see the kids. Whether it's at home, or working is immaterial. Miserable resentful parents make for unhappy children.

Great analogy......2% of Irish mothers drinking while kids watch telly, 50% commuting and barely seeing their children.

We won't see the damage done by this creche culture of absent parenting for another decade.

23-10-2014 10:50AM

Of course I've seen infants, I'm a mother! And a working one at that.
Look, my son was speaking in sentences at 18 months. He's bright as a button, extremely outgoing and social .... without, gasp, ever going to a crèche.

Kids develop whether they're in crèche or not. It's normal to assume a child is progressing the way they are because they're surrounded by other kids. But oftentimes that happens anyway!

I started him in playschool two mornings a week when he was almost 3, by them I thought yes, he'll benefit from having children of similar ages around him. But I ain't kidding myself either, those mornings means I have a few free hours to do stuff myself.

I'm not crèche bashing, just a little longer on the planet than the average first time parent so I've seen family grow up to adulthood without ever being "socialised" in a childcare facility and become perfectly confident, functioning adults who never missed out.

pwurple · 23-10-2014 11:15AM

SameDiff wrote: »

Great analogy......2% of Irish mothers drinking while kids watch telly, 50% commuting and barely seeing their children.

We won't see the damage done by this creche culture of absent parenting for another decade.

Where did you pull those numbers from? The sky?

What possible 'damage' are you even alluding to? Working parents have been around a lot longer than a decade. I've got grown up cousins whos parents used creches followed by summer camps and aupairs. The children are perfectly normal members of society, with university degrees, jobs and families of their own. I don't know what mystery malicious thing you are alluding to.... unless you think the example good work ethic is something terrifying!

My own parents both worked when we were small. we had a series of childminders, playschool and aupairs. Myself and my siblings are all educated, employed, contributing members of society with our own husbands/wives and families.

There's nothing wrong with either way of doing things, despite the chips on shoulders.

Hannibal Smith · 23-10-2014 11:15AM

I gave up my job after my second because we couldn't afford 2 creche fees.We were flat broke when I wasn't working. ..but would have been worse with the creche fees.

My eldest started school last year and after 2 years out of work I was job hunting. A lot of changes took place while I was out so I started at the bottom to allow myself catch up a year later I got another better job with more pay and im right back to where I was before the 2 year break.

The eldest was in a creche from 10 months up to school age (which included the ecce year while I was off). He flourished. ..he learned so much, made fantastic friends which are like extra siblings to him now. They know each other so well that they play fantastically together. They're all in the same school now and he knows if he falls out with any of his classmates he has his creche buddies to link in with. So for him creche worked perfectly.

I worry the second guy will never have that but I'm hoping the ecce year will some how help him catch up.

So after all that waffle lol...you'll have your girlfriend's maternity leave to see how it is being home and a reduced income. ..so don't make any decisions until you see how that goes.

lazygal · 23-10-2014 11:22AM

SameDiff wrote: »

Great analogy......2% of Irish mothers drinking while kids watch telly, 50% commuting and barely seeing their children.

We won't see the damage done by this creche culture of absent parenting for another decade.

I was in a crèche 30 years ago, when regulations were non existent, and I've turned out fine.

Working parents and crèches are not some mad new phenomenon. When I was in school lots of friends went to minders or some form of day care after school.

volchitsa · 23-10-2014 11:37AM

My kids are almost grown up now, and I would say that good child care matters more than the kind of childcare - and that can be crèche, childminder or parent. We've done all three, and all can work, or not.

One thing I'd say about giving up your job is not just to look at it in the short or even medium term, it's a decision that will have huge consequences for the rest of your lives, including retirement. That probably seems irrelevant now, but I have friends who worked part time, or stopped completely, for years (even when it was only meant to be short term, several children arriving in a row meant it never really seemed logical to go back) and who are now coming to a point where they are looking at retirement rights - and you really pay a huge price for those years out.

All in all, if you can afford financially to work part time for a few years, that is probably ideal for everyone - but be aware that there is a price to pay for that even years down the line. It's horrible at the time to think that you are working to pay the crèche fees - but you aren't really, it's an investment in your future earning power.

lazygal · 23-10-2014 11:58AM

Women especially need to be aware of this, as it seems to be mainly women who reorganize their lives after children. Taking career breaks and doing shorter weeks is one thing, but they will count against you longer term. I'm ok with taking the hit but I'm going in with both eyes open. I know of many women who quit work after they had a second child, with the intention of returning to work when they were in school, and it has proved very difficult for them to reenter the workforce. My mother always worked, but now she's nearing retirement age leaving her secure job to do a job more in line with raising us is starting to affect things like her pension. It's not all about working for crèche fees.

SameDiff · 23-10-2014 11:59AM

lazygal wrote: »

and I've turned out fine.

Yes, indeed.

ThisRegard · 23-10-2014 12:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What do infants get from socialising? I'm not having a go at you, but countless peer reviewed studies will tell you that an infant does not need to be placed in a childcare facility to be socialised.
From the age of about 2.5 they start showing an interest in playing with others. Before that, no.

I understand it's not me you're having a go with. I didn't actually say they have to be socialised in a creche, I said they benefit from it. As others have already said, despite their age, they do interact with each other rather than sit in a corner playing with themselves. They learn off each other by copying and observing. If one kids figures something out, the others will quickly copy.

And most importantly, they have great fun doing so. Watch the joy on their faces as each member of their group turn up in the morning, the latest member to appear is almost mugged.

Sweet Rose wrote: »

I have a friend who leaves her child in the crèche at 7.30 every morning and doesn't collect her until 6.30p.m. She says herself she is just bringing her child home, bathing her, reading her a story and kissing her goodnight. At weekends, she likes to socialise and leaves her child with a childminder most of Saturday evening and Sunday morning. She would rarely bring her child on a day trip or anything like that. Where is the parenting in that.

I have issues with that myself, but not all parents who use crèches put their kids in that long.

lazygal wrote: »

I have noticed a huge difference with my younger child compared to the older one. There's 15 months between them but he picks up thing so quickly because he's had the older sibling to play with. He's also saying a few words earlier, knows how things 'work' (lego etc) from watching big sister and I can see him doing things like potty training quicker too. I was skeptical about children needing socialization before age 3 myself, but having seen the effect on my younger child I know it has some benefits.

My daughter is almost 5, youngest not yet 1 and we see the similar. Like the analogy I used earlier, he watches her like a hawk, everything she does. And it's not necessarily always a good thing !

SameDiff wrote: »

We won't see the damage done by this creche culture of absent parenting for another decade.

That's just nonsense. As others said, this "crèche culture" is not a new thing, it's been around decades.

Sleepy · 23-10-2014 12:09PM

Unless you're pretty well paid, it's not nearly worth it after a second child is born.

If you're married, the working parent can claim the SAHM/SAHD's tax credits and a "home carer credit" (well worth looking into at €810, I only found out about it this year, d'oh!) which total to earnings of €4,350 (after tax), add the cost of any travel/commute, childminding etc. and many will find they're paying to be in employment.

It's not really just the first few years either as while they're in primary school, realistically they're only there for half a day so childminding will still be needed and one of the parents will still need the flexibility to take time off for sick days, mid-terms, summer holidays etc.

Our solution for it was for Mrs. Sleepy to become a child-minder herself so she minds another little girl whilst also minding our two monsters. As the first 10k of earnings are tax-free for a child-minder who minds in their own home (and doesn't affect the ability to transfer the credits), this is an extremely tax-efficient means of earning a second income whilst also being able to be at home with your own kids.

Sleepy · 23-10-2014 12:11PM

volchitsa wrote: »

One thing I'd say about giving up your job is not just to look at it in the short or even medium term, it's a decision that will have huge consequences for the rest of your lives, including retirement. That probably seems irrelevant now, but I have friends who worked part time, or stopped completely, for years (even when it was only meant to be short term, several children arriving in a row meant it never really seemed logical to go back) and who are now coming to a point where they are looking at retirement rights - and you really pay a huge price for those years out.

All in all, if you can afford financially to work part time for a few years, that is probably ideal for everyone - but be aware that there is a price to pay for that even years down the line. It's horrible at the time to think that you are working to pay the crèche fees - but you aren't really, it's an investment in your future earning power.

This is very much advice based on your own generation I'm afraid, most parents of young children these days can't afford a pension unless they're in the Public / Semi-state Sector.

The One Doctor · 23-10-2014 12:19PM

Sleepy wrote: »

This is very much advice based on your own generation I'm afraid, most parents of young children these days can't afford a pension unless they're in the Public / Semi-state Sector.

We certainly can't. Unless I get one of the civil service jobs that are going. Fingers crossed. Actually, everything is crossed.

SameDiff · 23-10-2014 12:25PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

That's just nonsense. As others said, this "crèche culture" is not a new thing, it's been around decades.

It hasn't been so widespread as it is today and the hours have never been so long.

We won't see the damage done for another while yet, but we will see it, that is a certainty.

Infants do not belong huddled in these chaotic groups being looked after for money. This kind of treatment does not pass without consequence.

beauf · 23-10-2014 12:43PM

Apart from the money, if you have kids in different locations, with different start/end times, its not actually possible to do all that and fit a job in at the same time. Unless you pay even more for a collection/drop off service, or have family who can do it for you. if you don't its not a practical to go back to work until all the kids are in for a similar and longish school day. Then you have to factor summer holidays, illness etc. There's a point where you need a minimum of hours/days working to make it worthwhile.

The other point is if you take a few years out of work. It can be difficult maybe impossible to get back to the same position, and salary. So some will decide to take a short term loss for the long term gain.

ThisRegard · 23-10-2014 12:46PM

SameDiff wrote: »

It hasn't been so widespread as it is today and the hours have never been so long.

We won't see the damage done for another while yet, but we will see it, that is a certainty.

Infants do not belong huddled in these chaotic groups being looked after for money. This kind of treatment does not pass without consequence.

What damage ? What consequence ? Huddle in chaotic groups ? Are we in a post apocalyptic world or something? Don't just throw out phrases like this without expanding on what you mean.

I would argue it was as widespread in the 90s as it is now, so many of those kids are well into secondary school or college.

pwurple · 23-10-2014 01:05PM

Sleepy wrote: »

This is very much advice based on your own generation I'm afraid, most parents of young children these days can't afford a pension unless they're in the Public / Semi-state Sector.

Most don't have a pension? I don't think that's right. Some don't... and it depends on their age rather than the number of children they have.

I think the statistic is ~77% of employed people in ireland have occupational or private pensions... that was 2009 CSO data though. Amoung the 20-24 age group pension coverage is 19%, rising with each demographic group. In the 25-34 group (age likely to have small children?) the rate is 51% of employed have pension, so just over half. It's a factor to be considered alright.

Link here:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2009/qnhs_pensionprovisionQ409.pdf

The cost of childcare vs doing it yourself?

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