Debate: Does it annoy you that RTE are only Broadcaster on HD on Saorview?

carrolls · 02-01-2015 8:34pm #1

Just when the topic was gaining momentum on the terrestrial forum, it was closed down and we were told to use the UTV sticky here in Broadcasting. But the debate was far from complete.
This is a general question about independents, not just UTV.
So I pose the question again here. Any independents who would like to broadcast in HD on Saorview are required to pay RTE Networks €2.2 Million annually for the privilege of doing so.
This fee does not really matter to RTE, because their subsidiary 2RN have been given the job of ringmaster for the network and because they fund the network using license payers money.
Therefore, due to government granted monopolistic competition rules, RTE have a huge competitive advantage over other broadcasters like UTV, TV3 and TG4 when it comes to broadcasting in HD.
Is this fair?
I think more realistic fees should be charged to independents for access to HD, In other words create a level playing field.
I suggest that the part of the licence that funds RTE carriage should be shared equally between RTE, UTV, TV3 and TG4, So they can all afford to broadcast in HD.

Wabbit Ears · 02-01-2015 9:18pm

fair really has nothing to do with it, What your proposing isn't how the system works and the alternatives are unworkable so while it would be great to have these other channels in HD, its all a moot point.

carrolls · 02-01-2015 9:35pm

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

fair really has nothing to do with it, What your proposing isn't how the system works and the alternatives are unworkable so while it would be great to have these other channels in HD, its all a moot point.

It's a TV licence, not an RTE license. Of course it's workable, but there are too many vested interests with their noses in too many troughs for anything to be done. That's the only reason why it's a moot point.

FRIENDO · 02-01-2015 10:35pm

Can anybody answer my question please

Do TV3 get any money from the licence fee paid by the public?

thanks

Sam Russell · 02-01-2015 10:44pm

Comreg made a decision on charges for transmission on Saorview that was based on bandwidth used. The unused bandwidth was to be ignored.

As a consequence, 2RN get approx €12m for running two muxes regardless. This means that if all channels need to go HD together so that they all pay the same or it would reduce costs for their rivals. 2RN should be allowed to offer incentives, but that is not allowed.

Let us remember, it was TV3's refusal to pay for transmission that brought this situation about.

BAI and Comreg need to sit down with the interested parties and sort out this stupid waste.

carrolls · 02-01-2015 10:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Comreg made a decision on charges for transmission on Saorview that was based on bandwidth used. The unused bandwidth was to be ignored.

As a consequence, 2RN get approx €12m for running two muxes regardless. This means that if all channels need to go HD together so that they all pay the same or it would reduce costs for their rivals. 2RN should be allowed to offer incentives, but that is not allowed.

Let us remember, it was TV3's refusal to pay for transmission that brought this situation about.

BAI and Comreg need to sit down with the interested parties and sort out this stupid waste.

Yes Sam, It is incredibly stupid, and needs to be sorted, whether or not all the bandwidth is being used, it costs the same amount.
That €12 Million should be paid through the TV license. Axe a few dozen RTE bigwigs and job done.

FRIENDO · 02-01-2015 11:11pm

In the past TV3 have got money from the licence fee,
I believe it was 2008, I don't know if they still get licence fee money now.

However it is clear TV3 are only interested in making profit.

Unlike RTE or TG4 (who are receiving part of the licence fee), who yes make money from advertisement, they also supply a service to the public regardless of profit.

Before Saorview, TV3 only paid for broadcast on the main transmitters, ignoring parts of rural Ireland as not enough profit could be made, I would imagine.

Presently TV3 and UTV Ireland are not paying to broadcast on Saorsat, ignoring between 2%-5% of the state, this is probably a marketing decision taken by the private operators.

If part of the public licence fee is to be given to any private operator or any concession for HD given - they should also be required to make available their station on Saorsat.
This would be fair treatment for all licence fee payers.

FRIENDO · 02-01-2015 11:22pm

carrolls wrote: »

I suggest that the part of the licence that funds RTE carriage should be shared equally between RTE, UTV, TV3 and TG4, So they can all afford to broadcast in HD.

If part of the public licence fee is to be given to any private operator - they should also be required to make available their station on Saorsat.
This would be fair treatment for all licence fee payers.

carrolls · 02-01-2015 11:24pm

FRIENDO wrote: »

If part of the public licence fee is to be given to any private operator or any concession for HD given - they should also be required to make available their station on Saorsat.
This would be fair treatment for all licence fee payers.

I agree, but this thread is about Saorview.
As license fee payers, we should be entitled to TV3, UTV and TG4 in HD.

FRIENDO · 02-01-2015 11:45pm

carrolls wrote: »

I agree, but this thread is about Saorview.
As license fee payers, we should be entitled to TV3, UTV and TG4 in HD.

Yes, but why should private operators be give a free ride!

If part of the licence fee is give to private operators, the private operators must then carry a responsibility to the members of the public who pay the licence fee, including members of the public who are serviced by Saorsat.

As a licence fee payer I will always have an interest in the allocation of the licence fee.

Because RTE are a state broadcaster they broadcast on saorsat.

Because TG4 are also given part of the TV licence fee, this is possibly why they broadcast on Saorsat.

Saorview is really the RTÉ NL name for the public service broadcaster multiplexes. According to the RTÉ submission to Oireachtas committee the proposed RTÉ NL operated Saorsat is expected to be a copy of Saorview.

Presently all enquiries for Saorsat go through Saorview.ie on RTENL.

Sorry for upsetting your debate, in raising my views on public licence fee money or concessions being given to Private operators.

carrolls · 03-01-2015 12:37am

FRIENDO wrote: »

Yes, but why should private operators be give a free ride!

.

Yes, but why should RTE be given a free ride.
I am not saying independents should be given a free ride by any manner of means, but €2.2 Million is excessive especially when RTE are effectively on a free ride themselves.

More Music · 03-01-2015 1:33am

TV3 have already gotten a substantial bailout from the Irish taxpayer. They are also entitled to access funds from the television license fee and have done so.

Sam Russell · 03-01-2015 1:33am

carrolls wrote: »

Yes, but why should RTE be given a free ride.
I am not saying independents should be given a free ride by any manner of means, but €2.2 Million is excessive especially when RTE are effectively on a free ride themselves.

RTE do not get a free ride. They are forced by Ministerial order to run RTE NN and RTE Jr and RTE 1+1 with no advertising revenue but still pay €1.6m transmission charges to 2RN for these channels (I know 2RN is a seperate company, albeit wholly owned by RTE but publicly accounted separately and watch closely by the BAI and Comreg). The SI requires RTE to lose a large amount of advertising income. No such similar edict applies to TV3 or to TG4 or in fact to UTVi.

The ridiculous decision by Comreg to fix charges soley on bandwidth flies in the face of all commercial logic, forcing a near empty mux to burn off capacity for nothing, but charging the users for it nevertheless.

Currently, RTE/2RN are filling Saorview with data channels, useless HD test cards, and 38 blank channels for no apparent reason, and are unable to explain why. It appears to me they are trying to sabotage non-Saorview sets for some unaccountable reason. They have changed the series link signal so it no longer works on non-Saorview PVRs (nor does it work on Saorview TVs that can record).

This whole DVB-T project, later named Saorview, has been a long, long series of disappointments. From 2008 to this current time, it has been mismanaged, fudged, and generally messed up from a political, management, marketing, informational, and implementational point of view. It cost a lot more than was needed, but it was eventually rolled out. The only thing one can say is that it works, although the signal has been messed with in recent times.

The current lack of channels, and lack of HD channels is all down to the BAI and its poor policing of the broadcasting market, and Comreg for its poor regulation of broadcasting, together with the incompetence of the DCNER, and its Ministers - Carey who signed the SI that forced no advertising, Rabbitte who did not set it aside and launched Saorview twice while having his ears tweaked by Mirriam, and White who has yet to make any decisions on the matter.

RTE were forced to lose spectrum for no compensation although the Government sold it for a large lump sum, but instead had to design and to fund the whole DVB-T project from their own resources while the BAI held a beauty contest for PayTV that the first two in the winning enclosure took a year each to fail to produce the desired result. That left RTE to pick up the pieces, again with no financial help.

It was not RTE the failed to pay its transmission fees, nor did RTE get an €80m write down from the taxpayer. It was not RTE that got the free ride.

Atlantic Dawn · 03-01-2015 1:38am

The licence fee should be used as a facilitating fee to cover anyone who wants to launch a channel in the state, you should be given 6 months to get 10% of the audience, if you achieve this there should be no charge, otherwise your coverage is brutal and your no loss. Having RTÉ as the defacto where all your licence cash goes yet is subsidised by ad revenue is completely wrong, if it was in the style of BBC it would be understandable but it's not, potentally open to vast sectors of corruption on advert fee.

carrolls · 03-01-2015 6:47am

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE do not get a free ride. They are forced by Ministerial order to run RTE NN and RTE Jr and RTE 1+1 with no advertising revenue but still pay €1.6m transmission charges to 2RN for these channels (I know 2RN is a seperate company, albeit wholly owned by RTE but publicly accounted separately and watch closely by the BAI and Comreg). The SI requires RTE to lose a large amount of advertising income. No such similar edict applies to TV3 or to TG4 or in fact to UTVi.

The ridiculous decision by Comreg to fix charges soley on bandwidth flies in the face of all commercial logic, forcing a near empty mux to burn off capacity for nothing, but charging the users for it nevertheless.

Currently, RTE/2RN are filling Saorview with data channels, useless HD test cards, and 38 blank channels for no apparent reason, and are unable to explain why. It appears to me they are trying to sabotage non-Saorview sets for some unaccountable reason. They have changed the series link signal so it no longer works on non-Saorview PVRs (nor does it work on Saorview TVs that can record).

This whole DVB-T project, later named Saorview, has been a long, long series of disappointments. From 2008 to this current time, it has been mismanaged, fudged, and generally messed up from a political, management, marketing, informational, and implementational point of view. It cost a lot more than was needed, but it was eventually rolled out. The only thing one can say is that it works, although the signal has been messed with in recent times.

The current lack of channels, and lack of HD channels is all down to the BAI and its poor policing of the broadcasting market, and Comreg for its poor regulation of broadcasting, together with the incompetence of the DCNER, and its Ministers - Carey who signed the SI that forced no advertising, Rabbitte who did not set it aside and launched Saorview twice while having his ears tweaked by Mirriam, and White who has yet to make any decisions on the matter.

RTE were forced to lose spectrum for no compensation although the Government sold it for a large lump sum, but instead had to design and to fund the whole DVB-T project from their own resources while the BAI held a beauty contest for PayTV that the first two in the winning enclosure took a year each to fail to produce the desired result. That left RTE to pick up the pieces, again with no financial help.

It was not RTE the failed to pay its transmission fees, nor did RTE get an €80m write down from the taxpayer. It was not RTE that got the free ride.

RTE are living off the fat of the land, I.e the license fee, so they do have a free ride. As for RTE news now and RTE1 +1 these cost very little technically to relay and are paid for by us, the license fee payers. I agree with everything else you wrote.

lertsnim · 03-01-2015 9:26am

More Music wrote: »

TV3 have already gotten a substantial bailout from the Irish taxpayer. They are also entitled to access funds from the television license fee and have done so.

Indeed. The people who say TV3 costs us nothing should rethink that.

icdg · 03-01-2015 10:22am

moved to terrestrial

FRIENDO · 03-01-2015 10:44am

carrolls wrote: »

RTE are living off the fat of the land, I.e the license fee, so they do have a free ride.

No, RTE are dual funded by the licence fee and from revenue earned through some advertisement on some stations.

RTE is a state owned broadcaster and is 100% owned by the people of Ireland.

RTE supplies a service for the public, a service that is not always about Profit.

Its important that we have a state owned broadcaster, without RTE carrying this responsibility, many parts of this county would not have a proper radio or TV service, with access to the 4 radio stations on fm and access to the free to air TV service such as Saorsat.

RTE is also supporting our culture in our language and arts, which is not about profit but service.

Presently Saorview, Ireland’s first free-to-air digital television service, is owned and managed by RTÉ. The following RTÉ services are available on Saorview: RTÉ One, RTÉ Two HD, RTÉ News Now, RTÉjr, RTÉ One +1 and RTÉ Aertel Digital, as well as all of RTÉ’s fm and digital radio services.

I believe RTE are doing a good job.

FRIENDO · 03-01-2015 10:50am

More Music wrote: »

TV3 have already gotten a substantial bailout from the Irish taxpayer. They are also entitled to access funds from the television license fee and have done so.

Why should my taxes be given to this profit making company, when I cant even watch this station Free to air?

Sam Russell · 03-01-2015 11:24am

FRIENDO wrote: »

Why should my taxes be given to this profit LOSS making company, when I cant even watch this station Free to air?

Fixed your post.

Not only do they make a loss, they also make rubbish programmes.

Gerry Wicklow · 03-01-2015 12:08pm

Look at it the other way. TV3 shows what would RTÉ be like without a fee. I'm no RTÉ fan but they can hold their heads up against BBC, ITV, etc unlike TV3.

Biffo The Bare · 03-01-2015 2:09pm

If RTE Networks charged 20% extra for a HD channel instead of 120% extra, TV3, UTV and TG4 would almost certainly choose HD instead of SD. That would mean an extra €700,000 to €800,000 for the 2RN network.
The network costs the same to maintain whether it's at 60% capacity or 100% capacity.
Why don't they do this?

Sam Russell · 03-01-2015 2:21pm

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

If RTE Networks charged 20% extra for a HD channel instead of 120% extra, TV3, UTV and TG4 would almost certainly choose HD instead of SD. That would mean an extra €700,000 to €800,000 for the 2RN network.
The network costs the same to maintain whether it's at 60% capacity or 100% capacity.
Why don't they do this?

You are missing the point.

2RN get the same whether the second mux is 90% empty or 1% empty. They get €12m whatever they put on it. This was decided by Comreg as a fair and transparent solution to TV3's complaint about transmission charges. Each broadcaster is charged as per the bandwidth actually used, divided amongst themselves.

So, if all the 2 muxes are used, an HD channel would cost about €1.6m each with an SD channel coming in at about €650k. So 2RN could give a 'Free' SD channel if TV3, TG4, and UTVi all went HD together, but not if they do not.

So it is up to the BAI and Comreg to do a bit of choreography to get them all to jump together.

It would make a lot of sense to give mux1 to RTE, and give mux2 to TG4, TV3, and UTVi - they can then divide the €6m costs between themselves.

Remember, one analogue channel cost €3m per year - less for TV3 because it refused to use the minor sites and was only receivable by 80% of the population.

It should also be required that Saorsat is a direct copy of Saorview.

dfdream · 04-01-2015 6:17pm

The misfortune is that for the likes of TV3 and UTV Ireland is that viewers will switch to UTV HD or ITV HD (I know lots with combi boxes doing this) to watch the same programs that they show so they can see them in HD so TV3 and UTV Ireland are not getting the viewers anyway. My mum (over 80) prefers to watch Emerdale and corrie etc on UTV HD. She says the picture is clearer. Its not just techie people...

I know for me that since RTE1 went to HD Im watching more.

UTV Ireland knew the cost HD Saorview before they went for the licence so it seems a cop out if you ask me. UTV Ireland is only UTV with a Pat Kenny show (wow). UTV HD will do me fine.

Its like ITV 2,3,4 HD only on sky maybe its an arrangement with Sky to sweeten irish customers.

AwaitYourReply · 07-01-2015 1:49am

It does annoy me that RTÉ is the only broadcaster to have any of it's channels in HD format on Saorview.
I agree that there needs to be firm leadership from Dept of Communications not to mention the Minister and other related agencies.
If they still refuse to do so after a reasonable compromise is put on the table then it may be time for hardball.
At this point one option the Minister for Communications/BAI/Comreg may ultimately decide is that all Irish terrestrial channels must have fully commenced HD broadcasts on all digital tv channels no later than a specified date (e.g.)I would suggest within a 12 month maximum period timetable. All such HD only broadcasts must also be carried on the Irish Digital Terrestrial Television platform, Saorview by the same specified date. Furthermore, if any other tv channel (i.e.) foreign owned and/or from outside the state wishes to apply to broadcast it's signal(s) via the Saorview platform they will also be required to be HD only. SD options must cease by a certain specified date.

HD formats are likely to be replaced by Ultra High Definition (UHD) in time (yet to be confirmed) yet Ireland still has TV3, 3e, TG4, UTV Ireland, RTÉ News Now, RTÉ One+1, RTÉ Junior are all either not yet broadcasting in HD format on the Saorview platform or else have yet to commence HD broadcasts on any platforms at all. Some broadcasters have decided to only broadcast their channel(s) in HD on certain platforms only. Time for some serious leadership here...

Sam Russell · 07-01-2015 11:48am

I think that Comreg, BAI and the DCENR should all confirm that:

1. Saorview is the paramount broadcasting platform for Ireland, and the HD broadcasting must first appear on Saorview before any other platform. The BAI should specify whether a station can broadcast in SD rather than HD. SD is appropriate for RTE NN, all +1 channels, and OTV. Requiring every channel to be HD would require a third mux(an extra €5m/year), or at least a shift to DVB-T2 (a no-no). All platforms should be forced to take all of Saorview.

2. Saorsat should be a direct copy of Saorview, by law.

3. Sky should come under regulation by BAI under some form.

4. The tight regulation of RTE by the Minister should cease. Controlling their schedule and their ability to get advertising revenue is not right. It distorts the market and hands advertising revenue out of the state to foreign broadcasters. Control might be needed to stop RTE abusing their dominant position but not at the current level and not in the current way. The Minister has yet to make a decision. It has left us with RTE NN as a defunct news channel, and a poor RTE Jr/1+1 which is non-sense.

5. Controlling the method of charging by 2RN should cease. This has given rise to the current problem as it is very expensive if only one channel goes HD, but much less if all go HD.

6. 2RN should be moved away from RTE, possibly into a new independent semi-state.

7. The Saorview signal, in recent times, has been interfered with by 2RN/RTE to the detriment of non-Saorview approved receivers. Even Saorview approved TVs might have to be operated as UK sets in order to receive Freesat and these suffer as well. The Signal should be under the supervision of Comreg in the last resort. Currently Comreg does not accept responsibility for the signal - and RTE say it's all secret and commercially sensitive.

This probably certainly requires new legislation.

AwaitYourReply · 07-01-2015 11:23pm

FRIENDO wrote: »

No, RTE are dual funded by the licence fee and from revenue earned through some advertisement on some stations.

RTE is a state owned broadcaster and is 100% owned by the people of Ireland.

RTE supplies a service for the public, a service that is not always about Profit.

Its important that we have a state owned broadcaster, without RTE carrying this responsibility, many parts of this county would not have a proper radio or TV service, with access to the 4 radio stations on fm and access to the free to air TV service such as Saorsat.

RTE is also supporting our culture in our language and arts, which is not about profit but service.

Presently Saorview, Ireland’s first free-to-air digital television service, is owned and managed by RTÉ. The following RTÉ services are available on Saorview: RTÉ One, RTÉ Two HD, RTÉ News Now, RTÉjr, RTÉ One +1 and RTÉ Aertel Digital, as well as all of RTÉ’s fm and digital radio services.

I believe RTE are doing a good job.

"RTÉ One" should read as RTÉ One HD as it has also been in HD format on Saorview for a while now. I believe it's meant to be relaunching during 2015 and I suspect it will become RTÉ1 HD in due course
RTÉ TWO HD was previously relaunched as RTÉ2 HD in 2014 and seen an improvement in it's audience ratings.
RTÉ also supports a comprehensive informative Website: www.rte.ie in comparison to the other TV/Radio channel websites that operate from within this state. RTÉ not only supports the arts & culture but also runs two orchestras namely: RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra, RTÉ Concert Orchestra in addition to the RTÉ Vanbrugh Quartet (aka: RTÉ String Quartet).

And then you have RTÉ Guide magazine which is still in existence despite stiff competition from all the newspapers, cheaper tv magazine guides and advent of the various electronic programme guides across various digital tv platforms such as UPC Horizon, Sky Digital and so on. The RTÉ Guide once had a complete monopoly in the advance weekly TV listings publications for many years and held the title of Ireland's largest selling magazine for many years but this all changed some time ago and the magazine no longer has the same presence it once enjoyed.

AwaitYourReply · 09-01-2015 4:02am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that Comreg, BAI and the DCENR should all confirm that:

1. Saorview is the paramount broadcasting platform for Ireland, and the HD broadcasting must first appear on Saorview before any other platform. The BAI should specify whether a station can broadcast in SD rather than HD. SD is appropriate for RTE NN, all +1 channels, and OTV. Requiring every channel to be HD would require a third mux(an extra €5m/year), or at least a shift to DVB-T2 (a no-no). All platforms should be forced to take all of Saorview.

2. Saorsat should be a direct copy of Saorview, by law.

3. Sky should come under regulation by BAI under some form.

4. The tight regulation of RTE by the Minister should cease. Controlling their schedule and their ability to get advertising revenue is not right. It distorts the market and hands advertising revenue out of the state to foreign broadcasters. Control might be needed to stop RTE abusing their dominant position but not at the current level and not in the current way. The Minister has yet to make a decision. It has left us with RTE NN as a defunct news channel, and a poor RTE Jr/1+1 which is non-sense.

5. Controlling the method of charging by 2RN should cease. This has given rise to the current problem as it is very expensive if only one channel goes HD, but much less if all go HD.

6. 2RN should be moved away from RTE, possibly into a new independent semi-state.

7. The Saorview signal, in recent times, has been interfered with by 2RN/RTE to the detriment of non-Saorview approved receivers. Even Saorview approved TVs might have to be operated as UK sets in order to receive Freesat and these suffer as well. The Signal should be under the supervision of Comreg in the last resort. Currently Comreg does not accept responsibility for the signal - and RTE say it's all secret and commercially sensitive.

This probably certainly requires new legislation.

You raise excellent common sense points in this post - I would like to see someone like you forming and implementing policy in this area.

Only thing I would add would be under point 3 - I would not just reference Sky but ensure that the wording covers all tv/radio/Online/mobile platform providers and/or channels that are established as an Irish opt-out just to sell adverts into Republic of Ireland (e.g.) Sky News Éire, Sky 1, Challenge, and so on. I imagine that if it is too specific other platform providers like UPC Ireland, eircom e-Vision, Magnet or even free-to-air satellite channels not on Sky ROI epg may exploit other loopholes.

Sam Russell · 09-01-2015 10:32am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

You raise excellent common sense points in this post - I would like to see someone like you forming and implementing policy in this area.

Only thing I would add would be under point 3 - I would not just reference Sky but ensure that the wording covers all tv/radio/Online/mobile platform providers and/or channels that are established as an Irish opt-out just to sell adverts into Republic of Ireland (e.g.) Sky News Éire, Sky 1, Challenge, and so on. I imagine that if it is too specific other platform providers like UPC Ireland, eircom e-Vision, Magnet or even free-to-air satellite channels not on Sky ROI epg may exploit other loopholes.

One way to bring some of the platforms under regulation is to have the 'must offer - must carry' dictum to apply to Saorview as a whole and not individual channels. Saorview should be seen as the state's broadcasting system, not one of the many options. We own it, like we own the roads.

Another requirement is to release 2RN from the shackles of the current charging system of full recovery of their cost shared out among users based on bandwidth used. Imagine if supermarkets were forced to operate on a cost-plus basis with no special offers, or a mobile phone company forced to charge all users the same tariff.

AwaitYourReply · 09-01-2015 10:06pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

One way to bring some of the platforms under regulation is to have the 'must offer - must carry' dictum to apply to Saorview as a whole and not individual channels. Saorview should be seen as the state's broadcasting system, not one of the many options. We own it, like we own the roads.

Another requirement is to release 2RN from the shackles of the current charging system of full recovery of their cost shared out among users based on bandwidth used. Imagine if supermarkets were forced to operate on a cost-plus basis with no special offers, or a mobile phone company forced to charge all users the same tariff.

Well unless there is some serious re-think the current stalemate between 2rn(RTÉnl) will continue with all of the other channel providers. The Minister for Communications needs to "man-up" and sit down as a matter of urgency with 2rn, BAI, and ComREG and sort this whole mess out. When I think of former Minister for Communications Michael D. Higgins and the way he shook up the broadcasting sector which led the way for new services TnaG(now TG4) in 1996 and TV3 in 1998. I think during his time in office we saw RTÉ Radio 1 and RTÉ1+2 TV broadcast through the night for the first time on a regular basis as well.

The Saorview platform should not be left limping along in this way indefinitely. As multi-channel tv platforms go Saorview is now on borrowed time despite the recent addition of UTV Ireland. If it means 2rn are released from the current charging system mechanism and replaced with one that works not just for all stakeholders involved without it being prohibitively expensive for other channels to launch HD formats and/or more SD services. The same should also apply to include other radio services from the independent commercial sector such as: NewsTalk, Today fm, Classic Hits 4FM and so on.

The current Minister for Communications, Alex White TD has shown he is more than capable and prepared to get things some things done by ensuring that UTV Ireland was designated as a PSB licence at the start of December to enable carriage on Saorview, Sky Digital Ireland and UPC Ireland among other platforms. Let's hope this minister keeps knocking heads together more & more to shift stakeholders from their current positions but first he will need to give all stakeholders/channel providers the necessary incentives to make the next set of jumps.

Sam Russell · 10-01-2015 12:05am

The current position is due to the SI signed by Minister Carey on his last day in office which hobbled RTE. TV3 then exploited the situation by refusing to pay transmission charges. RTE NL should have pulled the plug on them, but Comreg decided to force 2RN/RTE NL to charge for Saorview on bandwidth. This guaranteed 2RN €12m a year whatever capacity was used, and users had to pay by bandwidth.

The effect of this ruling was to make HD very expensive for the first to jump, while 2RN burn off the excess capacity at everyone's expense.

I think if RTE took the first mux, and the €6m for the second was divided up between TV3, TG4, and UTVi, they could all have a SD channel and an HD channel each, at a cost of €2m each.

On Soarview we currently have two HD test cards plus one SD one and an SD information channel just burning away with no income for anyone.

AwaitYourReply · 10-01-2015 1:57am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current position is due to the SI signed by Minister Carey on his last day in office which hobbled RTE. TV3 then exploited the situation by refusing to pay transmission charges. RTE NL should have pulled the plug on them, but Comreg decided to force 2RN/RTE NL to charge for Saorview on bandwidth. This guaranteed 2RN €12m a year whatever capacity was used, and users had to pay by bandwidth.

The effect of this ruling was to make HD very expensive for the first to jump, while 2RN burn off the excess capacity at everyone's expense.

I think if RTE took the first mux, and the €6m for the second was divided up between TV3, TG4, and UTVi, they could all have a SD channel and an HD channel each, at a cost of €2m each.

On Soarview we currently have two HD test cards plus one SD one and an SD information channel just burning away with no income for anyone.

This is mad stuff and typical of our political system when an outgoing minister forces through questionable decisions on their very last day in office knowing that they will not be there to see it properly over the line.

Yes I came across those X 2 of the 2rn test cards in HD and X 1 of the 2rn test cards in SD along with the pointless Saorview Technical channel in SD. This technical channel will probably have the same information for the next 12 months if the Saorview website is anything to compare. I also do not know why there needs to be X 2 versions of the same RTÉ One +1 time-shift channel as both are in same SD format.

If RTÉ One+1 shared the same Saorview channel number as RTÉjr given that their hours of operation currently complement each other in a similar way to it's digital radio equivalent versions RTÉ junior/RTÉ chill timeshare arrangement.

Sam Russell · 10-01-2015 11:01am

What is mad is Minister Carey has been gone for nearly FOUR years and Minister Rabbitte chose to do nothing about this (or about most other things under his control) and Minister White has also chosen to do nothing.

Meanwhile, 2RN/RTE have started monkeying about with the signal.

AwaitYourReply · 10-01-2015 11:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is mad is Minister Carey has been gone for nearly FOUR years and Minister Rabbitte chose to do nothing about this (or about most other things under his control) and Minister White has also chosen to do nothing.

Meanwhile, 2RN/RTE have started monkeying about with the signal.

Well if Minister Carey only signed off on the whole charging mechanism for channels going on to the Irish digital terrestrial tv platform (i.e.) Saorview on his last day in office without taking into account the ramifications of such a policy and if his successor Minister Rabbitte left the existing status quo intact then this is unacceptable.

I was hopeful that the current Minister Alex White would get things moving especially when he managed to call TV3's bluff by assigning an Irish PSB licence to UTV Ireland thus allowing the channel access to broadcast on Saorview and Sky Digital ROI epg.

As you said in an earlier post, it would be better if we completely separated all transmission networking from the state public service broadcaster as it sounds like there is still a "special relationship" between RTÉ and 2rn(RTÉnl) in comparison to the independent commercial broadcasters like TV3, TG4, UTV Ireland, Oireachtas TV, IRISH TV and so on.

Sam Russell · 11-01-2015 10:33am

Minister Carey signed off on the non-advertising on RTE NN and RTE Jr and not allowing RTE to use the half channel as RTE 3 or RTE Plus, but use it as RTE 1+1, thus ensuring it had no audience.

Minister Rabitte refused to allow (by not allowing) RTE 2 to rearrange their schedule to move children's programmes across to the children's channel. RTE are thus forced to run two DTT channels with no income.

It was Comreg that sorted out TV3's complaint about DTT charges by adjudging that the best way of making the charges fair and transparent was to make the charges based of bandwidth used - sounds fair. However, since there is unused capacity, this gets charged to the current uses which results in charges being nearly double the level that they should be at. It was the refusal by the Oireactas to pay for OTV, but their willingness to pay Sky (a foreign owned and regulated TV platform) €250k that shows what a scandal this is.

Clearly there are hints on the ether that this will be sorted out, but no announcements. UTVi needs to go HD. TV3 needs to go HD (before the RWC) and TG4 wants to go HD, but none of them want to pay €2.4m per year for the privilege. There is plenty of capacity, it is just being burnt off for no reason.

Gerry Wicklow · 11-01-2015 5:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

.... There is plenty of capacity, it is just being burnt off for no reason.

That's the most annoying bit. We are paying for this waste of electricity either way.
Next they'll be asking us to pay for water that is spilled in the ground.... Oh wait !!:rolleyes:

Sam Russell · 11-01-2015 8:22pm

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

That's the most annoying bit. We are paying for this waste of electricity either way.
Next they'll be asking us to pay for water that is spilled in the ground.... Oh wait !!:rolleyes:

There is no waste of electricity, the muxes are the same power, it is just wasted bits filling the transport stream. It is like the fresh air in a part filled aircraft that could carry revenue producing passengers.

They are using the lowest spec for SD and HD despite having loads of spare capacity. SD is 504 by 576 instead of 720 by 576, with HD being 1440 by 1096 instead of 1920 by 1096. It does not affect bandwidth much to up the spec for either one.

Gerry Wicklow · 11-01-2015 9:28pm

But that's just it. They are wasting money broadcasting useless data and test cards when we could have far better picture quality

Jpmarn · 13-01-2015 11:06am

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

formerly scottish paddy · 13-01-2015 11:21am

Jpmarn wrote: »

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

I would doubt it, with RTÉ 1 and 2 in HD, I cannot see RTÉ jr or NN being in HD for some considerable time.

DeepBlue · 13-01-2015 12:05pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

TV3 needs to go HD (before the RWC) and TG4 wants to go HD, but none of them want to pay €2.4m per year for the privilege.

It seems that TV3 will be going HD in mid 2015 prior to the Rugby World Cup.
http://cce.gno.ie/news/2014/04APR/15rwctv3hd.php

Sam Russell · 13-01-2015 1:04pm

Jpmarn wrote: »

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

If RTE need more space they can get it, 2RN can add muxes as long as there are customers prepared to pay.

Currently RTE fill one mux, and would require significant permissions from lots of politicians, agencies and probably new legislation to get any more.

If TG4, TV3, and UTVi went HD, together with 3 SD channels they would fill the other. Each mux costs less than €6m currently. It is because they are all holding back that none of them are going forward.

RED L4 0TH · 13-01-2015 11:08pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

It seems that TV3 will be going HD in mid 2015 prior to the Rugby World Cup.
http://cce.gno.ie/news/2014/04APR/15rwctv3hd.php

Saorview included then in it's HD plans if the following is to be believed.

TV3 also announced its plans to provide a HD service across all platforms by mid-2015, in time for the RWC which takes place from 18 September to 31 October 2015.

Might force UTVI to move from SD too. The statement is from April 2014 though.

AwaitYourReply · 13-01-2015 11:58pm

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

Saorview included then in it's HD plans if the following is to be believed.

Might force UTVI to move from SD too. The statement is from April 2014 though.

I think any statement issued as far back as April 2014 (9 months ago now) should be taken with a health warning as quite a lot was forced to happen with regards to a certain channel being permitted to broadcast on Saorview/Sky Digital ROI/UPC Ireland/eircom e-Vision towards late November/early December.

TV3 may decide not to blink where Saorview/2rn(RTÉ) is concerned and may well just push the added benefits/advantages of watching TV3 in High Definition format on Sky Digital and UPC Ireland for the best TV pictures in the forthcoming Rugby World Cup later in the year. As a commercial channel, they will weigh it all up and decide which makes most commercial sense for them as a company. Ideally I'm sure they would like to be in HD format on all platforms but TV3 may ultimately decide that Saorview is not something they will be blackmailed on where HD transmission fees is concerned unless the current charging structure is radically changed in their favour.

Sam Russell · 14-01-2015 11:09am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I Ideally I'm sure they would like to be in HD format on all platforms but TV3 may ultimately decide that Saorview is not something they will be blackmailed on where HD transmission fees is concerned unless the current charging structure is radically changed in their favour.

It was their action that caused the charging regime to be changed to its current format. It disadvantages everyone. It is a basic cost plus regime with the unused space being ignored. This means the current situation with a second mux nearly empty is the worst possible situation as the charges are nearly double what they would be if it was nearly full, as it would be if five channels were HD.

Gonzo · 14-01-2015 12:29pm

I think one of the main problems with Saorview is not the lack of HD but the lack of channels other than RTE, TV3 etc. Most other countries have 30 or 40 channels on their saorview equivalent services.

We should at least have the rest of the irish channels such as Setanta, TG4 HD and UTVi HD for starters. There should also be the irish version of Sky News and a few of the other international news channels such as Euronews, France 24 and some other FTA channels like Food Network, CBS Action etc.

mass_debater · 14-01-2015 1:07pm

Gonzo wrote: »

I think one of the main problems with Saorview is not the lack of HD but the lack of channels other than RTE, TV3 etc. Most other countries have 30 or 40 channels on their saorview equivalent services.

We should at least have the rest of the irish channels such as Setanta, TG4 HD and UTVi HD for starters. There should also be the irish version of Sky News and a few of the other international news channels such as Euronews, France 24 and some other FTA channels like Food Network, CBS Action etc.

No chance they'd pay to be on a small system like Saorview, other countries have a bigger audience

10000maniacs · 14-01-2015 6:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was their action that caused the charging regime to be changed to its current format. It disadvantages everyone. It is a basic cost plus regime with the unused space being ignored. This means the current situation with a second mux nearly empty is the worst possible situation as the charges are nearly double what they would be if it was nearly full, as it would be if five channels were HD.

BBC 1 and 2 SD on Saorview was a done deal.
Hands shaken on it and everything. Then complaints from TV3 to the then minister Eamon Ryan caused him to sneakily back track on the deal and come up with a cock and bull$hit story about the BBC being accessible only on a "paid for" basis.
The original plan was probably that BBC would be relayed on Saorview at zero charge for the BBC and RTE1 & 2 reciprocally on Freeview NI. TV3 probably burst into Eamon's office, and ranted, Why do we have to pay and the beeb are getting it for free? And probably threatened to pull out of Saorview.
The "Memorandum of Understanding" was the actual reason the BBC would have had free slots on Saorview and RTE would have free slots on Freeview NI.

ardmacha · 14-01-2015 6:08pm

mass_debater wrote: »

No chance they'd pay to be on a small system like Saorview, other countries have a bigger audience

This implies that the Saorview carriage fees are not pro rata with other places. This is not inevitable.

Thurston? · 14-01-2015 6:50pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

BBC 1 and 2 SD on Saorview was a done deal.
Hands shaken on it and everything. Then complaints from TV3 to the then minister Eamon Ryan caused him to sneakily back track on the deal ...

What I took from the telling of the story, at the time, was that everyone but the BBC was in on the 'deal', & it was BBC objections that resulted in references to a free service being replaced with paid-for.

Biffo The Bare · 14-01-2015 6:52pm

The press reports in the Irish Independent and Irish Times the morning after the agreement gave the details of the announcement in full & no mention of "On a paid for basis", together with pictures of the two ministers shaking hands. I'm sure there is a link or 2 still available on this forum (somewhere).
Also the final paragraph of the Indo article had a mention of TV3 complaints of the announcement and how they were going to address it.

Debate: Does it annoy you that RTE are only Broadcaster on HD on Saorview?

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