Top London employers discriminate agains't working class people

Dyr · 15-06-2015 06:26PM

You see the thing about inequality and prejudice is that certain sections of society do quite well out of them so they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo as is

I can guarantee you that every poster who's going "well, of course thats how things work" in this thread would have been saying the same about the darkies and wimmen 20 or 30 years ago.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 06:26PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

steddyeddy, you seem extremely confident that this doesn't happen in science and jobs there are purely based on merit. Do you think that Tim Hunt is an equal opportunities employer that bases his hiring decisions purely on merit? Do you think he's an isolated case?

A large number of extremely successful scientists come from working class backgrounds. No I would agree that Tim Hunt is discriminatory. He's gone and rightfully so. What's the chances of the bigots in the article going too?

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 06:27PM

Bambi wrote: »

You see the thing about inequality and prejudice is that certain sections of society do quite well out of them so they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo as is

I can guarantee you that every poster who's going "well, of course thats how things work" in this thread would have been saying the same about the darkies and wimmen 20 or 30 years ago.

They probably still do secretly.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 06:29PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think most of us would agree that it's a bad thing to discriminate against a a qualified candidate simply because they come from a disadvantaged background. The reality is that the major companies can cherry pick the very best staff and they will mostly have a preference for employees who come from at worst, a middle class background.

Look at countries like America, the so called land of the free, where everyone can supposedly succeed, despite their background. Funnily enough it's the people with the Ivy League educations who will be the most employable.

I've heard the same thing based on race, sex and the handicapped in the past. It will never be acceptable to me just because some people have certain views on a particular group of people.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 06:40PM

seamus wrote: »

/facepalm

It's an example, FFS. You seem to be taking this very personally. My point being that that there are things that people associate with "working class", and they will kill someone in an interview, sometimes before they even open their mouths.Yes, it is.
What am I guilty of? I'm not disagreeing with you. That's extremely naive, and runs pretty counter to your previous example. You personally may strive to select solely on merit, but clearly based on your anecdote not everyone does.
I wasn't giving any tips. Just explaining why it happens.

Ok I thought you were defending the practice. My apologies. No not everyone does and thankfully he is gone now.

Science has a unique history in that some of the biggest names were from working class backgrounds such as Faraday or Ramanujan.If you can prove yourself via experiments, conclusions and new theories your accent won't matter. Law seems more subjective.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 06:41PM

seamus wrote: »

Bigoted != stereotyped. Look it up.
I know of a number of people and have encountered a number of situations where someone's accent went against them. Where management informally said to other management that they were "giving him a chance", even though the guy was more educated and capable than half the company.

I know a insanely intelligent and talented Irish doctor who was out of work for three months after graduating before one hospital gave her "a chance".

Stereotyped is still wrong. It's about as true as the stereotype Tim Hunt had against female scientists.

Pumpkinseeds · 15-06-2015 07:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've heard the same thing based on race, sex and the handicapped in the past. It will never be acceptable to me just because some people have certain views on a particular group of people.

Nobody is saying that it's acceptable. We're just being realistic and it's utterly ludicrous to suggest that those of us living in the real world are closet racist sexists who discriminate against the disabled.:rolleyes:

15-06-2015 07:23PM

Bambi wrote: »

You see the thing about inequality and prejudice is that certain sections of society do quite well out of them so they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo as is

I can guarantee you that every poster who's going "well, of course thats how things work" in this thread would have been saying the same about the darkies and wimmen 20 or 30 years ago.

And that they are not the ones with the 'wrong' accent or 'background' they are saying it in the sure and certain knowledge that they are part of the in group who don't get discriminated against.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 07:30PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Nobody is saying that it's acceptable. We're just being realistic and it's utterly ludicrous to suggest that those of us living in the real world are closet racist sexists who discriminate against the disabled.:rolleyes:

I don't get you. You saying that it's not acceptable to discriminate then you say that nobody in the real world is doing it?

Pumpkinseeds · 15-06-2015 07:31PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't get you. You saying that it's not acceptable to discriminate then you say that nobody in the real world is doing it?

No I didn't say that. I said that discrimination isn't acceptable but that in the real world it happens. I'd say it's standard practice. I don't agree with it but there's bugger all I can do about it. Businesses want people who will fit in with their corporate image, therefore someone with excellent credentials from a background like Moyross for example, competing with a candidate who attended Oxford or Yale is never going to get the job. It sucks but it's the reality. Discrimination isn't right and it isn't fair but in the worlds of Law, Medicine and the Sciences it will always exist.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 07:38PM

We could actually make blind CVs the standard where we don't put your school of attendance on the CV.

bigpink · 15-06-2015 07:40PM

Hate people that seem like normal nice people telling you there from rough or disadvantaged areas

MattD1349 · 15-06-2015 08:03PM

A good friend of mine is a highly qualified accountant in a very well known company. He is originally from Jobstown in Tallaght yet to look at him or listen to him you'd never know. Worked just as hard to adopt a D4 accent just as hard as he worked in college which was a scholarship. He was never let forget where he was from while in college or how he was there by all the students who were sent there by 'Mom & Dod.'
When he graduated he found that putting his address on his CV wouldn't even get him an acknowledgement letter but when he used his girlfriends (now his wife) address in a very leafy southside suburb he was hired.
The pressure to blend in & the fear of being 'discovered' was immense. I can remember him nearly having panic attacks in certain situations. It got that bad & he became so ashamed that when he got married they did it in the Caribbean so that none of his family could afford to go but all the work colleagues could & did.
He gradually morphed into a right pratt & last time I saw him he was avoiding myself & some 'old pals' in a very well known pub on the southside. Anyone who says class & snobbery doesn't exist in this country is either deluded or middle class themselves. There's assholes everywhere.

PARlance · 15-06-2015 08:05PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

We could actually make blind CVs the standard where we don't put your school of attendance on the CV.

CVs in braille?

I'd like to hear your plans for the interview process. Are personal questions allowed?
How do you cover up accents?

Roquentin · 15-06-2015 08:06PM

MattD1349 wrote: »

A good friend of mine is a highly qualified accountant in a very well known company. He is originally from Jobstown in Tallaght yet to look at him or listen to him you'd never know. Worked just as hard to adopt a D4 accent just as hard as he worked in college which was a scholarship. He was never let forget where he was from while in college or how he was there by all the students who were sent there by 'Mom & Dod.'
When he graduated he found that putting his address on his CV wouldn't even get him an acknowledgement letter but when he used his girlfriends (now his wife) address in a very leafy southside suburb he was hired.
The pressure to blend in & the fear of being 'discovered' was immense. I can remember him nearly having panic attacks in certain situations. It got that bad & he became so ashamed that when he got married they did it in the Caribbean so that none of his family could afford to go but all the work colleagues could & did.
He gradually morphed into a right pratt & last time I saw him he was avoiding myself & some 'old pals' in a very well known pub on the southside. Anyone who says class & snobbery doesn't exist in this country is either deluded or middle class themselves. There's assholes everywhere.

ive seen both extremes (people from poorer areas and the affluent areas) and i have to say i get on better with the lads from poorer areas. i found teh rich kids a bit too upper classy

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 08:12PM

PARlance wrote: »

CVs in braille?

I'd like to hear you're plans for the interview process. Are personal questions allowed?
How do you cover up accents?

Blind is a slang term used in reference to leaving out the name of your school on a CV. Listen if the accent thing really is a point of discrimination we can certainly train people to hide it. My accent is fairly neutral but I can impersonate the stereotypical D4 and North Dublin accent :P.

Well yes of course relevant personal questions are allowed. I don't see how the school one would help really.

K4t · 15-06-2015 08:20PM

PARlance wrote: »

How do you cover up accents?

Accents can be changed and quite easily altered - it's not necessarily discrimination to take a person's accent into the equation when hiring for a job.

PARlance · 15-06-2015 08:30PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Blind is a slang term used in reference to leaving out the name of your school on a CV. Listen if the accent thing really is a point of discrimination we can certainly train people to hide it. My accent is fairly neutral but I can impersonate the stereotypical D4 and North Dublin accent :P.

Well yes of course relevant personal questions are allowed. I don't see how the school one would help really.

Yip I'm aware of blind cvs and I don't see them solving any problems re descrimination as the interview is the deciding factor.

My point was that if a recruiter is likely to decsriminate, blind cvs will possibly just result in a longer process in finding someone that ticks all their boxes.
You can't hide colour or sex in an interview, and while accents can be changed, you can't stop personal questions that will help ascertain where someone grew up.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 08:32PM

PARlance wrote: »

Yip I'm aware of blind cvs and I don't see them solving any problems re descrimination as the interview is the deciding factor.

My point was that if a recruiter is likely to decsriminate, blind cvs will possibly just result in a longer process in finding someone that ticks all their boxes.
You can't hide colour or sex in an interview, and while accents can be changed, you can't stop personal questions that will help ascertain where someone grew up.

If people are going to discriminate then the person should under so uncertain terms lie.

PARlance · 15-06-2015 08:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

If people are going to discriminate then the person should under so uncertain terms lie.

Agreed, lying in an interview could get you sacked and put a big dent in your career prospects.

Still not sure what good blind cvs will achieve though.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 08:37PM

Just curious how many people were asked in jobs where they went to school and grew up? I had a total of 16 interviews for postdoc, PhD and industry positions in the UK and Ireland and not once was I asked about that.

Fratton Fred · 15-06-2015 08:46PM

My brother, like me, went to the local secondary school, got a first class honours degree, did his articles etc and did his time with PWC, but when he came to move on, he kept getting rejected in preference to some halfwit from a Public school.

His friend, a partner in a big four law firm, wrote him a glowing reference and he managed to get a foot in the door.

He is now an equity partner in a venture capital company and has taken on the responsibility of looking at all CVs when they are recruiting. He doesn't use agencies either.

He hates the self serving public schoolboy culture of The City and is waging his own small war against it. He is very successful as well, because he has this bizarre notion of recruiting based on merit, not who you buggered at boarding school.

K4t · 15-06-2015 08:51PM

^That's great just as long as he doesn't discriminate against the public school buggers of course.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-06-2015 08:54PM

Roquentin wrote: »

ive seen both extremes (people from poorer areas and the affluent areas) and i have to say i get on better with the lads from poorer areas. i found teh rich kids a bit too upper classy

But the important thing is that you'd never get involved in stereotyping, right?

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 08:55PM

K4t wrote: »

^That's great just as long as he doesn't discriminate against the public school buggers of course.

For some reason it seems more acceptable to discriminate against people who had zero start in life compared to those that had everything.

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 08:56PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But the important thing is that you'd never get involved in stereotyping, right?

I love how when richer kids get stereotyped it's bad but you had complete silence on children born into poverty being stereotyped.

Roquentin · 15-06-2015 08:56PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But the important thing is that you'd never get involved in stereotyping, right?

never

osarusan · 15-06-2015 08:58PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I love how when richer kids get stereotyped it's bad but you had complete silence on children born into poverty being stereotyped.

When was this?

steddyeddy · 15-06-2015 09:00PM

Going to war on the public school boy culture does not mean discriminating agains't public school boys. In my view it means returning to a system where selection is based on merit and not the school you went to which is not based on merit. It's based on your family's income.

c_man · 15-06-2015 09:04PM

Class divisions in Britain? Fuk me, what's the world coming to.

Top London employers discriminate agains't working class people

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